How far in math does the college-bound non-math kid need to go?

[Cindy in C-ville]

She's struggling with Saxon Algebra 2 this year. Is there something she could do next year and THEN do Pre-Calculus for her senior year?

 

She's a bright young lady, but she's a liberal arts gal, like her mom and dad.

[kiana]

I would recommend extremely strongly against doing algebra 2 as a sophomore and then precalculus as a senior, without doing focused and targetted algebra review over the junior year. She'll forget so much algebra 2, and it will just make it worse.

 

If you're going to do something else, do it as a senior, after precalc. Another option could be to take two years to do the precalc course. But don't leave the gap between alg 2/precalc.

[TravelingChris]

Both of my non math kids made it through Pre-Calc. My youngest I expect to go through Calculus or higher but she is a math kid.

[creekland]

College bound students at our ps are expected to make it through Pre-Calc UNLESS they are headed toward a non-academic degree (like Theater, Art, etc).

 

I'd recommend dropping Alg 2 now and keeping skills up via continuing an Alg 1 as review (a different Alg 1 than before and perhaps off-transcript - OR - put in an SAT/ACT review as a "class"). Has she done Geometry? Would she like Statistics? Those are options.

 

Ideally you want Pre-Calc right before any college math class she'll have to take or her skills will get rusty.

[Ellie]

Never mind. I didn't read the question properly. Duh.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Ellie

[Lori D.]

Just a thought -- what about setting aside the Algebra 2 this year and doing a Consumer Math (helpful for ANY student, but especially for those who are going straight from high school into real life!). Then in her junior year, she can start fresh with Algebra 2 and then do a Pre-Calc in senior year if needed.

 

That would allow her more time for brain maturity in those logic and abstract thinking areas required by Algebra, would have her taking the Algebra 2 closer to the time of SAT testing (which covers Algebra 1 and 2) at the end of 11th grade, so she'll be more familiar with the topics, and then that allows her to flow right into the Pre-Calc for senior year.

 

Especially in these economic times, I think one of the best things we can do math-wise for our students is to make sure we spend some time on Consumer Math -- the math they will really NEED in the real world -- and on Personal Finances -- so they know how to be WISE with their resources.

 

Just my opinion! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Teachin'Mine]

If she's struggling now, I'd look at which lesson numbers keep coming up in the problems she's getting wrong, and stop and go back and re-do those lessons re-working all the sample problems. I think that continuing at whatever pace she can do and really understand the math is more important than forging ahead and just getting by. Advanced Math, or any trig/pre-calc course, requires mastery of algebra 1 and 2. I'd aim for completing at least the first 70 lessons of Advanced Math, if at all possible. But you have lots of time to do that. IOW, slow and steady would be better than finishing algebra 2 and taking a year to do an unrelated math course. If she could complete the first half of AM in 11th, then she could do statistics in 12th. That is applicable to many liberal arts studies.

[higginszoo]

I'd probably lean toward doing consumer math now, then pick up with Algebra II and then Precalc to keep the momentum going from one to the other.

[J-rap]

Our one child who attends a U.S. college right now finished Algebra II in high school (no pre-calc.). She was awarded a Presidential Scholarship based on her high school grades and other activities. Having no math beyond Algebra II was never an issue.

[K-FL]

She's struggling with Saxon Algebra 2 this year. Is there something she could do next year and THEN do Pre-Calculus for her senior year?

 

She's a bright young lady, but she's a liberal arts gal, like her mom and dad.

 

Check what the state U's require for admission. FL req. 4 math credits "Alg I and above." So if you do the Alg I & II, Geometry sequence, you'd need one more like Statistics. If you can do the dual enrollment option, you can do Interm. Alg (the class prior to College Alg) which here is a college credit class, but is basically Alg II for college credit.:D It won't do for the college math (will for hs), but will count as a college elective & is good prep for the college algebra.

 

For most humanities degrees, 2 maths (Stats, College Alg or Math for Liberal Arts) is all that's needed.

Edited October 7, 2011 by K-FL

[Brenda in MA]

Why not have her drop Algebra 2 for this year, and pick up Geometry instead. I know that the standard Saxon sequence doesn't include a separate Geometry course, but there's no harm in having her do one to give her a little more time before tackling Algebra 2. You might try Teaching Textbooks for Geometry for a change of pace.

 

HTH,

Brenda

[Cindy in C-ville]

She's taken Alg I, Geometry, and is taking Alg. II this year in 10th grade. I hadn't thought about a statistics. That's an interesting idea and, she may like it since it's so practical. If she took Statistics next year, then she'd really have four high school math classes out of the way, right? But, would she be prepared to take the necessary math courses in college? Although I was on a humanities track, I still had to take a Calculus class in college. Thoughts?

[creekland]

She's taken Alg I, Geometry, and is taking Alg. II this year in 10th grade. I hadn't thought about a statistics. That's an interesting idea and, she may like it since it's so practical. If she took Statistics next year, then she'd really have four high school math classes out of the way, right? But, would she be prepared to take the necessary math courses in college? Although I was on a humanities track, I still had to take a Calculus class in college. Thoughts?

 

Do you have any idea what sort of schools she's looking at going to? Many won't consider any credits taken in 8th grade. Our high school won't even give high school credits for any classes taken before 9th grade, but different places do different things.

 

If you think she's going to have to take Calculus in college it would be really helpful to have gone through Pre-Calc in high school. She could take that in college as a remedial math class, but it will move at twice the pace - often not ideal for a less math talented student.

 

College Algebra is another option (it sort of reviews Algebra and then goes in more depth in places). At some colleges this is a remedial class and at others it's a math credit. Our high school gives it as a credit for college bound students who want more practice or who don't need Calc.

 

Statistics could still be a good idea.

[Jane in NC]

She's taken Alg I, Geometry, and is taking Alg. II this year in 10th grade. I hadn't thought about a statistics. That's an interesting idea and, she may like it since it's so practical. If she took Statistics next year, then she'd really have four high school math classes out of the way, right? But, would she be prepared to take the necessary math courses in college? Although I was on a humanities track, I still had to take a Calculus class in college. Thoughts?

 

I would like to address your last comment.

 

Many parents assume that their liberal arts/humanities oriented student will not need to take any math for their degree, but, as the OP correctly notes, this is not always the case. Many colleges require a semester or two of quantitative courses for all students--no matter what the major. Many humanities oriented students often decide to pick up a minor or double major in a "practical" field like business or econ in which Calculus is required. Or if she becomes intrigued by something in the social sciences, she may be required to take statistics.

 

Cindy, since you are now in NC, it is also worth mentioning that the state Unis here require four years of math in high school of applicants. My son had four years beyond Algebra I so I never asked the question of whether Algebra I in 8th grade is considered. You might want to call Admissions at one of the state schools to see what they have to say.

 

ETA information from the website of the NC Division of Non-public Instruction for minimum admissions requirements to the UNC system:

In mathematics, four course units including algebra I, algebra II, geometry and one unit beyond algebra II; or algebra I, II and two units beyond algebra II; or integrated math I, II, III and one unit beyond integrated math III. It is recommended that prospective students take a mathematics course unit in the 12th grade;

 

I do not think Consumer Math is considered a course beyond Algebra II.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Jane in NC
More info.

[flyingiguana]

She should do as much math as she can -- the key word here, though, being "can". There needs to be a balance between racing through things and actually understanding. Even if she decides to go into something needing more math in college than she manages to get through in high school, she will be able to do the extra math once she gets to college. It just may take a little longer. So I'd err on the side of doing what she can understand rather than worrying about how much she can get through. A solid foundation is much more important than whizzing through the "standard" math and not understanding much.

 

Alg 2 in 10th grade is "advanced", so it wouldn't be out of line to take it slowly. She might even take 2 years on it, particularly if it involves a lot of Alg 1 review (and you could incorporate Trig into it, which a lot of schools do, thus beefing up the "one" year into "one and a half"). A lot of kids, though, end up in Alg 2 a bit early because they did well at the earlier math -- and then discover that they aren't quite mature enough to handle the Alg 2 concepts. There is a certain amount of brain maturation that happens in the late teen years, so it's not a hopeless case. She may find she'd be better off doing Alg 2 next year, or the year after.

 

On the other hand, Alg 2 is just hard -- even really bright kids find they have to work harder at it than they did before. That may be all you're seeing? You also might look into another Alg 2 curriculum. Or try doing some extra work -- the problem sets at Khan Academy are pretty good (although, based on our experience, I'm not sure I'd recommend the lectures. They seem to confuse my daughter.)

 

The "four years of math" college admission requirements often just means whatever four years the student is ready for. The colleges want to see that the student is continuing to work on their math, but they don't expect everyone to have had 2 years of calculus in high school. A Statistics course very definitely counts for one of those years in college admissions.

 

I knew lots of seniors finishing up high school with Alg 2 back when I was in high school. And at the college where I currently work, we even see a few physics majors starting out with College Algebra instead of Calc.

[Teachin'Mine]

Cindy another thing to consider is that Advanced Math is really helpful for some of the problems on the SAT. I know I've heard it said that there isn't anything beyond algebra 2 on it, but that's not been our experience. I'm not sure if this applies to the ACT as well, but because of that, I'd be inclined to go with the Advanced Math in 11th. If she gets through lesson 70 or so, then she could decide whether to finish the book or do a statistics course for 12th. If she decides to go with statistics, I'd suggest that she occasionally do some work from the AM text just to keep her skills sharp. If she wants to go right into calculus in college, then she should finish AM. If she's okay with starting with College Algebra or Algebra 3? (the course before calculus) then the stats would be fine. I think the fewer breaks in math the better as it's usually a use it or lose it type of deal. :tongue_smilie:

 

As has been said, the more math she has - with understanding - the more options she'll have if she should choose a path which requires higher math.

[regentrude]

Advanced Math is really helpful for some of the problems on the SAT. I know I've heard it said that there isn't anything beyond algebra 2 on it' date=' but that's not been our experience.[/quote']

 

Could you please give me an example of what kind of problems you are talking about? Last time we did SAT prep, there really was not anything beyond algebra 1 and geometry ... so what kind of problems have you seen that would require math beyond algebra 2?

(The most advanced math we have seen on practice tests was the occasional quadratic equation.) Thanks

[Teachin'Mine]

Could you please give me an example of what kind of problems you are talking about? Last time we did SAT prep, there really was not anything beyond algebra 1 and geometry ... so what kind of problems have you seen that would require math beyond algebra 2?

(The most advanced math we have seen on practice tests was the occasional quadratic equation.) Thanks

 

I'll have to check with dd, but if I remember correctly, some of the more complex word problems - probably relating to distance, time, etc. - were covered in the AM text. It may be that what isn't covered until AM with Saxon was covered in algebra 2 in AoPS? I think that the more advanced trig was also helpful. Quadratic equations were sufficiently covered in algebra 1 and 2.

 

ETA: Checked the AM table of contents, and one that was helpful is listed as "advanced rate problems".

Another thing which was helpful was learning how to use the graphing calculator. It's not necessary for the SAT, but it can be helpful on some problems.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Teachin'Mine

[Jenny in Florida]

College bound students at our ps are expected to make it through Pre-Calc UNLESS they are headed toward a non-academic degree (like Theater, Art, etc).

 

Sorry, but as the mom of one kid with a theatre degree and another who is probably heading that way, I take great exception to the phrase "non-academic." Liberal arts degrees do not require a lot of math and science, but they can be very demanding in other areas.

 

Now, with regard to the original question:

 

My daughter did algebra I, geometry, algebra II and a second geometry class before heading off to the early entrance program. She did fine in college (although she was "only" a theatre major).

 

My son did algebra I early enough that we probably won't count it on his high school transcript. So, he will have geometry, something we're calling "Topics in Discrete Math" (using an Art of Problem Solving text and some other resources), algebra II and pre-calc.

 

I'm not the least bit worried he won't be prepped to get into and do well in the college program of his choice.

[Jane Elliot]

She's struggling with Saxon Algebra 2 this year. Is there something she could do next year and THEN do Pre-Calculus for her senior year?

 

She's a bright young lady, but she's a liberal arts gal, like her mom and dad.

 

I recommend you go back and reread WTM, Ch. 27. I've read WTM several times over the years, and each time I learn something new. About a year ago I was pondering the same math questions you are, and when I went back to that chapter again I got helpful answers. (It was almost like I was seeing that chapter for the first time, but then again, I was facing new questions with ds #5.)

[creekland]

Sorry, but as the mom of one kid with a theatre degree and another who is probably heading that way, I take great exception to the phrase "non-academic." Liberal arts degrees do not require a lot of math and science, but they can be very demanding in other areas.

 

 

 

No one said nor implied that students choosing the non-academic majors can't do math (or other subjects) well, but there are certainly students who are extremely left brain wired who have more difficulties with the right brain subjects. There's nothing wrong with it and I'm glad our school has a "path" for them which doesn't force them into the typical college bound track, esp for math.

 

If you want to take offense, so be it. At school, one of my favorite guys to use the term for some of his star students is/was an excellent art teacher (who retired recently - hence the "was").

 

Personally, I have no problem with the terminology. There are majors which people generally call "academic" and others which people generally call "artsy." Both have value. My "academic major" son loved his Theater class freshman year, but it was one class he got a B in since that's not his talent. ;)

[Cindy in C-ville]

I recommend you go back and reread WTM, Ch. 27. I've read WTM several times over the years, and each time I learn something new. About a year ago I was pondering the same math questions you are, and when I went back to that chapter again I got helpful answers. (It was almost like I was seeing that chapter for the first time, but then again, I was facing new questions with ds #5.)

 

Good idea. I only own the first edition, but recently checked out from the library the third edition related to a different question. Looks like I'll need to check it out again.

 

And, I know what you mean about seeing a chapter for the first time. The last time I read it from cover-to-cover with a highlighter, sticky tabs, etc. was when the kids were small. Although I'm afraid I might be a discouraged by how much we've missed over the past few years with all the upheaval in our family... But, I guess that's not a good reason to avoid it, right?

[Cindy in C-ville]

Great information, ladies. I appreciate those who have suggested that we just move forward with Alg. 2, but at her pace, even taking an extra year to do it. I can't just let her go at her own pace for several reasons:

 

1. We're in a Classical Conv group, so someone else is setting the pace.

2. And, both she and I need someone setting the pace. Otherwise she would just never get to it and I'm so busy teaching the others that I'm afraid I wouldn't hold her reasonably accountable.

 

Ideally, I'd have her work with someone else 2 other times during the week. There may be a college girl in our church who would be willing to do this. I'll have to check with her and see if that would work out.

 

Also, I appreciate the wisdom for considering not only what she needs for college acceptance, but also what she needs to be able to successfully complete the math requirements in college. My thinking all along is that they need to at least get through pre-calculus, and preferable a calculus course prior to college.

 

One of the things that makes me sad is that she, of all our children, really is experiencing the fall-out from the upheaval of the years we were adopting Katya and then the trauma of our church closing, me going back to work, and now our move. Sara Maria and Grace were both able to complete high school along the same trajectory that they began in 9th grade. This hasn't been true for Adelyn. And, while I trust that it will work out, my heart goes out to her and I want to do whatever I can to make these high school years rewarding, happy years, in addition to academically challenging her.

[regentrude]

Thanks, TeachinMine.

Btw, AoPS covers rate problems early in algebra 1 (ch 7).

Advanced trig??? College board does not mention any trigonometry required on the SAT :confused:

 

I'll have to check with dd' date=' but if I remember correctly, some of the more complex word problems - probably relating to distance, time, etc. - were covered in the AM text. It may be that what isn't covered until AM with Saxon was covered in algebra 2 in AoPS? I think that the more advanced trig was also helpful. Quadratic equations were sufficiently covered in algebra 1 and 2.

 

ETA: Checked the AM table of contents, and one that was helpful is listed as "advanced rate problems".

Another thing which was helpful was learning how to use the graphing calculator. It's not necessary for the SAT, but it can be helpful on some problems.[/quote']

[tex-mex]

I was non-mathy and attended a liberal arts private college as an Elementary Ed major -- I agree with those who mentioned Statistics after Algebra II. If she desires to teach or just wants to understand standardized test scores, for example. And colleges look at Statistics favorably compared to Consumer Math. HTH

[ChrisN in NY]

If you have to keep to the group's schedule, can you find someone to tutor her? If you want her to have pre-calc, I wouldn't skip a year considering that math is not her strong point.

 

My 2nd dc, graduated in 2008, did Jacob's "Mathematics: A Human Endeavor", half of Jacob's Algebra and half of ABeka's Business Math. He went to a SUNY school for agriculture for three years and graduated with two Associate's degrees.

 

My 3rd dc, graduated in 2009, took a year off after high school, but had been accepted at two SUNY colleges' physical education programs. She took Algebra, Geometry, and Algebra 2/Trig. She decided against attending school away from home and is taking community college classes with a 3.9-something average.

 

HTH.

[Jenny in Florida]

No one said nor implied that students choosing the non-academic majors can't do math (or other subjects) well, but there are certainly students who are extremely left brain wired who have more difficulties with the right brain subjects. There's nothing wrong with it and I'm glad our school has a "path" for them which doesn't force them into the typical college bound track, esp for math.

 

If you want to take offense, so be it. At school, one of my favorite guys to use the term for some of his star students is/was an excellent art teacher (who retired recently - hence the "was").

 

Personally, I have no problem with the terminology. There are majors which people generally call "academic" and others which people generally call "artsy." Both have value. My "academic major" son loved his Theater class freshman year, but it was one class he got a B in since that's not his talent. ;)

 

I take exception to the idea that the only subjects that qualify as "academic" are the ones you, personally, value and deem so.

 

If you want to be rude, so be it.

[Lori D.]

One of the things that makes me sad is that she, of all our children, really is experiencing the fall-out from the upheaval of the years we were adopting Katya and then the trauma of our church closing, me going back to work, and now our move. Sara Maria and Grace were both able to complete high school along the same trajectory that they began in 9th grade. This hasn't been true for Adelyn. And, while I trust that it will work out, my heart goes out to her and I want to do whatever I can to make these high school years rewarding, happy years, in addition to academically challenging her.

 

 

Cindy, just want to encourage you, that Adelyn is having the opportunity to learn invaluable LIFE lessons -- such as flexibility, selflessness, and how to handle difficult and unexpected circumstances -- that her older sisters missed out on. Sometimes we get so caught up in the academic credits, we forget that academics are just ONE aspect (and not THE most important one!) of growing and maturing into a caring and capable adult.

 

I picture your DD as a young woman who will as a high school graduate be more mature, gracious, and compassionate in character than many of her peers as the result of the unusual *opportunities to grow* that were placed in her path during her high school years. :) Blessings, Lori D.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Thanks, TeachinMine.

Btw, AoPS covers rate problems early in algebra 1 (ch 7).

Advanced trig??? College board does not mention any trigonometry required on the SAT :confused:

 

There's no trig on the SAT test - it's the ACT that has a few trig problems on each exam, and they're mostly the plug & chug variety. SAT math is still comprised of what is covered in typical algebra one and geometry courses, with a touch of what might be considered algebra two. It's more about reasoning and thinking than about any specific subject coverage beyond that level.

 

I noticed a few years back that when they added "a little algebra 2" to the description of the SAT, that they added problems like this:

 

Consider the graph of a function like y = x^2 + 3 (they'll give a picture of the graph). What would the new equation be if the graph is shifted 5 units to the right? And you have to choose the new equation, which should be y=(x-5)^2 + 3. (or maybe they give it in expanded form).

 

So, when I'm tutoring kids, I'll always make sure to go over that kind of shift problem. Conceptually, I find that most kids don't master that till algebra 2 or later, but a sharp kid might figure it out earlier.

[Teachin'Mine]

Thanks, TeachinMine.

Btw, AoPS covers rate problems early in algebra 1 (ch 7).

Advanced trig??? College board does not mention any trigonometry required on the SAT :confused:

 

Rate is also covered in Lesson 92 in Saxon's Algebra 1, however the more advanced word problems are addressed in Advanced Math.

 

I'm sure my term "advanced trig" is not a formal math term, lol but it is how I would describe what's taught in AM. Trigonometric functions are first addressed in Lesson 43 in Saxon's Algebra 2, but the AM text goes much more in depth with trigonometry as is to be expected of any pre-calculus text. Dd found that knowing what she learned in AM was very helpful in solving problems on the SAT test. Perhaps there is another way to answer those questions which doesn't require trigonometry? Honestly I don't know.

 

More complex, for lack of a better word, word problems are also addressed in the AM text. It's likely that these were covered in earlier texts in the AoPS texts. Maybe it has to do with the way Saxon is set up as compared to other courses? Since geometry is incorporated into the other texts, a student starting algebra 1 in 9th will be doing AM in 11th. In other programs, a student starting algebra 1 in 9th will likely be doing geometry in 10th and algebra 2 in 11th. Since anything needed for the SAT should ideally be covered by the end of 11th, I think this may account for the difference.

 

As far as whether trigonometry is needed for the SAT, I think that others with more experience with the test could answer that better. The only time dd took it was in 8th. I'll take a look at the College Boards prep book and see what I find too.

 

ETA: In looking through the prep book it does clearly state that the SAT doesn't include trigonometry.

For whatever reason, dd found it helpful in solving some of the problems anyway. YMMV : )

Edited October 8, 2011 by Teachin'Mine

[regentrude]

I noticed a few years back that when they added "a little algebra 2" to the description of the SAT, that they added problems like this:

 

Consider the graph of a function like y = x^2 + 3 (they'll give a picture of the graph). What would the new equation be if the graph is shifted 5 units to the right? And you have to choose the new equation, which should be y=(x-5)^2 + 3. (or maybe they give it in expanded form).

 

So, when I'm tutoring kids, I'll always make sure to go over that kind of shift problem. Conceptually, I find that most kids don't master that till algebra 2 or later, but a sharp kid might figure it out earlier.

 

Thanks, Kathy.

My son is currently covering that (AoPS Intro to algebra, ch. 14), so I guess we're OK.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Thanks, Kathy.

My son is currently covering that (AoPS Intro to algebra, ch. 14), so I guess we're OK.

 

That's why I love AoPS :D

 

But I tutor local ps kids for SAT, and I've come to know over the years which areas are bound to give them trouble. I'm pretty sure that none of the texts used for elementary algebra in the public schools here touch it.

 

About the trig Teachin' Mine: perhaps your dd used trig to solve some triangle problems on the SAT? The SAT loves to give 30-60-90 or 45-45-90 triangle problems. None of the SAT problems require trig, but if a student knew it already, she could certainly use it on some of the problems. I just don't want any parents here to freak out if their child is going to take the SAT and isn't in trig yet. :)

[Teachin'Mine]

That's why I love AoPS :D

 

But I tutor local ps kids for SAT, and I've come to know over the years which areas are bound to give them trouble. I'm pretty sure that none of the texts used for elementary algebra in the public schools here touch it.

 

About the trig Teachin' Mine: perhaps your dd used trig to solve some triangle problems on the SAT? The SAT loves to give 30-60-90 or 45-45-90 triangle problems. None of the SAT problems require trig, but if a student knew it already, she could certainly use it on some of the problems. I just don't want any parents here to freak out if their child is going to take the SAT and isn't in trig yet. :)

 

That may be it, but that aspect is covered in lesson 43 in Algebra 2.

 

I don't want any parents freaking out either! lol

 

Clearly your students are well covered with AoPS Regentrude. :)

 

It would be interesting to hear from other Saxon users what their students' experiences have been with the SAT and whether Advanced Math was helpful or if Algebra 2 was enough.

[creekland]

I take exception to the idea that the only subjects that qualify as "academic" are the ones you, personally, value and deem so.

 

If you want to be rude, so be it.

 

Sorry. I'm not intending to be rude. I generally consider it conventional terminology. I have yet to hear anyone who's taken exception to it (present thread excepted, of course) and we've been to many colleges listening to their spiels.

 

I guess no terminology can please all the people all the time. :confused: The "artsy" people I've come across take pride in it (being different, terminology and all), but maybe that's regional? What's the terminology like in other areas? Anyone care to chime in? Now I'm curious.

Edited October 8, 2011 by creekland

[mom31257]

 

Also, I appreciate the wisdom for considering not only what she needs for college acceptance, but also what she needs to be able to successfully complete the math requirements in college. My thinking all along is that they need to at least get through pre-calculus, and preferable a calculus course prior to college.

 

 

I have a math degree, and I do not see it necessary for any person to take calculus in high school if they aren't entering a math related field in college. My high school didn't offer calculus (way back then!), so I only had through Pre-Calculus, and I made a perfect score on the math part of my college entrance exams.

 

On Harvard's website here, scroll down and read what they say about mathematics. It plainly states not to rush into calculus. I think your dd would be better served to spend her time learning algebra and trigonometry well, rather than rush through to do calculus and have it on her transcript. She should work toward meeting the requirements of your state and the colleges she hopes to attend.

 

My dd is in 9th grade and has no desire to enter a math or science related field. She is required to have 4 math and 4 science credits in our state, so she will have them. I will help her get through it all since I do have a math degree, but what I will focus on is preparing her to do well on her college entrance exams and nothing more. She is very strong in literature, writing, and history. Those are the areas in which I will try to create a rigorous program for her during these high school years.

[TXBeth]

I take exception to the idea that the only subjects that qualify as "academic" are the ones you, personally, value and deem so.

 

If you want to be rude, so be it.

 

Your post is the first I've seen any value judgments. "Academic" is not a synonym of "good, worthwhile, valuable," and "non-academic" doesn't mean "worthless" or even "not demanding or rigorous." I think of academic more as "relating to studies such as languages, philosophy, and pure science, rather than applied, technical, or professional studies." (from dictionary.com)

PP's post didn't sound at all derogatory towards non-academic majors to me, and it actually seems like you are trying really hard to be offended.

 

Sorry. I'm not intending to be rude. I generally consider it conventional terminology. I have yet to hear anyone who's taken exception to it (present thread excepted, of course) and we've been to many colleges listening to their spiels.

 

I guess no terminology can please all the people all the time. :confused: The "artsy" people I've come across take pride in it (being different, terminology and all), but maybe that's regional? What's the terminology like in other areas? Anyone care to chime in? Now I'm curious.

 

I agree. I would think of academic majors as things that are "purely academic" like math, languages, etc. In non-academic I would include things like art, theatre, and even left-brained subjects like engineering or nursing, that are more practical and focused on a trade.

[wapiti]

On Harvard's website here, scroll down and read what they say about mathematics. It plainly states not to rush into calculus. I think your dd would be better served to spend her time learning algebra and trigonometry well, rather than rush through to do calculus and have it on her transcript. She should work toward meeting the requirements of your state and the colleges she hopes to attend.

 

This makes sense.

 

I just wanted to throw out the following thought for those interested in highly selective schools. I've been told (by an admissions person) that at Harvard in particular, most students will need AP calc BC to be competitive for admissions purposes, not officially but simply as a practical matter. Thanks for posting that link! This may be off-topic for this thread, but in addition to their focus on strength in algebra and such, I'm fascinated by this perspective:

 

You should acquire the habit of puzzling over mathematical relationships. When you are given a formula, ask yourself why it is true and if you know how to use it. When you learn a definition, ask yourself why the definition was made that way. It is the habit of questioning that will lead you to understand mathematics rather than merely to remember it, and it is this understanding that your college courses require. In particular, you should select mathematics courses that ask you to solve hard problems and that contain applications ("word problems"). The ability to wrestle with difficult problems is far more important than the knowledge of many formulae or relationships.

[regentrude]

This may be off-topic for this thread, but in addition to their focus on strength in algebra and such, I'm fascinated by this perspective:

You should acquire the habit of puzzling over mathematical relationships. When you are given a formula, ask yourself why it is true and if you know how to use it. When you learn a definition, ask yourself why the definition was made that way. It is the habit of questioning that will lead you to understand mathematics rather than merely to remember it, and it is this understanding that your college courses require. In particular, you should select mathematics courses that ask you to solve hard problems and that contain applications ("word problems"). The ability to wrestle with difficult problems is far more important than the knowledge of many formulae or relationships.

 

 

:iagree:

And it should be the objective of math education for any student.

Because memorized formulae can be forgotten. Understanding can not.

[choirfarm]

Sorry. I'm not intending to be rude. I generally consider it conventional terminology. I have yet to hear anyone who's taken exception to it (present thread excepted, of course) and we've been to many colleges listening to their spiels.

 

I guess no terminology can please all the people all the time. :confused: The "artsy" people I've come across take pride in it (being different, terminology and all), but maybe that's regional? What's the terminology like in other areas? Anyone care to chime in? Now I'm curious.

 

Don't lt it worry you Creekland. I think very few are going to take offense. I was a music major for 2 years before I changed my major. Theory is a TOUGH class and the one that gets most music majors. I KNOW you didn't mean that they were blow off classes.

 

Jenny, honestly, if that offends you, you need to toughen up a little. Creekland is one of the sweetest, most helpful people on here!!!!!!!!! She was not insulting you. I"m sorry but art majors are not considered academic majors. You can say it should be different, but that is just not the way it is perceived. That is all she was saying...

 

Christine

[creekland]

I have a math degree, and I do not see it necessary for any person to take calculus in high school if they aren't entering a math related field in college.

 

:iagree: My youngest will not be taking Calc. He doesn't need it. He will be taking Stats as that will be more useful for him.

 

 

 

I agree. I would think of academic majors as things that are "purely academic" like math, languages, etc. In non-academic I would include things like art, theatre, and even left-brained subjects like engineering or nursing, that are more practical and focused on a trade.

 

Thank you. At group information sessions (at colleges) those who have said they recalculate GPA have directly told us (the group) that they only use "academic" subjects. One even defined that as math, science, social studies, English, and foreign languages. Then they went on to say they didn't do that for "non-academic" majors and used Music as an example so students who were undecided, but thought they were heading that direction ought to make it known on their application unless they wanted their GPA recalculated.

 

Another school who was SAT/ACT optional suggested that students who wanted their "non-academic" majors send in a portfolio of their artwork or a CD of their music instead of worrying about the standardized tests since those didn't always show the admissions people their best potential.

 

This honestly isn't something I feel I "invented."

 

 

I just wanted to throw out the following thought for those interested in highly selective schools. I've been told (by an admissions person) that at Harvard in particular, most students will need AP calc BC to be competitive for admissions purposes, not officially but simply as a practical matter.

 

I've been more or less told this too - not specifically for Harvard and not specifically AP Calc BC, but "the vast majority of accepted students will have had Calculus in high school." That said, I suspect the minority who do not will be heading toward majors that don't require it and will have their strengths elsewhere.

 

:iagree:

And it should be the objective of math education for any student.

Because memorized formulae can be forgotten. Understanding can not.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Don't lt it worry you Creekland. I think very few are going to take offense. I was a music major for 2 years before I changed my major. Theory is a TOUGH class and the one that gets most music majors. I KNOW you didn't mean that they were blow off classes.

 

Christine

 

Thanks Christine! My parents were both music majors and instrumental music teachers in ps before they retired. I certainly don't think less of them and I DEFINITELY know they weren't "easy" majors to have. They require just as much work (or more) and thought as other majors - just in a different field.

[AngieW in Texas]

Could it be that she needs a different program? Some kids just don't learn well with Saxon. I know that I would have failed math with Saxon. My brain just doesn't work that way.

 

Even if Saxon has worked up until this point, doesn't mean that it will continue to work for her.

 

If she needs an outside teacher, maybe she could take an online math class.

[memphispeg]

I think the marvelous and wonderful Paul Foerster suggests doing data analysis and statistics or even logic before taking calculus. We are doing some at home b/c dd wants to be a science major. I know she will probably need to repeat it in college but, this way she will know what's coming and how to deal.

[chepyl]

Sorry, but as the mom of one kid with a theatre degree and another who is probably heading that way, I take great exception to the phrase "non-academic." Liberal arts degrees do not require a lot of math and science, but they can be very demanding in other areas.

 

Now, with regard to the original question:

 

My daughter did algebra I, geometry, algebra II and a second geometry class before heading off to the early entrance program. She did fine in college (although she was "only" a theatre major).

 

My son did algebra I early enough that we probably won't count it on his high school transcript. So, he will have geometry, something we're calling "Topics in Discrete Math" (using an Art of Problem Solving text and some other resources), algebra II and pre-calc.

 

I'm not the least bit worried he won't be prepped to get into and do well in the college program of his choice.

 

Sorry. I'm not intending to be rude. I generally consider it conventional terminology. I have yet to hear anyone who's taken exception to it (present thread excepted, of course) and we've been to many colleges listening to their spiels.

 

I guess no terminology can please all the people all the time. :confused: The "artsy" people I've come across take pride in it (being different, terminology and all), but maybe that's regional? What's the terminology like in other areas? Anyone care to chime in? Now I'm curious.

 

I have never heard a theatre degree called "non-academic." My theatre degree and master's were full of history and literature studies as well as acting, directing, and stagecraft (which included math - trig can be incredibly helpful in setting angles of lighting equipment for a light plot. My classes were very academic.

 

To the OP, if the college degree your child wants only requires college algebra, I would take PreCalc her senior year. You could select an "easier PreCalc program for next year and do

a more rigorous program the next year. List them as Advanced Mathematical Concepts and PreCalc instead of two years of PreCalc on the resume.

[memphispeg]

Bravo for that quote. I think that is what we are striving for in our math/sci stuff. It may mean a more successful time when the hard stuff hits (P Chem anyone?) in college.

[memphispeg]

Bravo for that quote about knowing why and how equations work. I think that is what we are striving for in our math/sci stuff. It may mean a more successful time when the hard stuff hits (P Chem anyone?) in college. It may mean that we don't DO all of AP Physics or Calc. but, dd will understand it. On this thread or another (?) some one took 2 years to do AP bio. I really think that is probably the best idea. There was so much to really appreciate in that class, 2 years is perfect. Isn't that why we home school to give our kids that luxury?

[FaithManor]

Pre-Calc is the minimum here and for most tier 1 and tier 2 schools, this would be the minimum to be considered competitive for both admissions and merit scholarship. Trigonometry is what it was called back in my dad or Analytical Geometry.

 

I have two that will take Calc 1, but they are very math oriented and will major in science. One is likely to major in Biology with a zoology emphasis and the other wants to double major in math and physics. The biology major will have to take Calc 1 in college and since it's a heady subject to complete in one semester, I want him to cover it during his senior year at home and then take it again in college. The other one will get through calc 1 and knowing him, he'll be ready for Calc 2 as a college freshman...he sort of lives, breathes, and oozes math. If a noun could be used to describe this child then, "He is math."

 

I would do algebra review and then try to get through pre-calc if possible.

 

Faith

[Cindy in C-ville]

I have a math degree, and I do not see it necessary for any person to take calculus in high school if they aren't entering a math related field in college. My high school didn't offer calculus (way back then!), so I only had through Pre-Calculus, and I made a perfect score on the math part of my college entrance exams.

 

On Harvard's website here, scroll down and read what they say about mathematics. It plainly states not to rush into calculus. I think your dd would be better served to spend her time learning algebra and trigonometry well, rather than rush through to do calculus and have it on her transcript. She should work toward meeting the requirements of your state and the colleges she hopes to attend.

 

My dd is in 9th grade and has no desire to enter a math or science related field. She is required to have 4 math and 4 science credits in our state, so she will have them. I will help her get through it all since I do have a math degree, but what I will focus on is preparing her to do well on her college entrance exams and nothing more. She is very strong in literature, writing, and history. Those are the areas in which I will try to create a rigorous program for her during these high school years.

 

Amy, I LOVE what you are saying here. So, what are you using to help her get through the math?

[mom31257]

Amy, I LOVE what you are saying here. So, what are you using to help her get through the math?

 

She is required to have 4 math credits, one of which has to be higher than Algebra 2. I am currently changing her Algebra 1 curriculum to Lial's. My best friend owns BJU Algebra 1 & Geometry and said I could use them. While I think BJU is fine for me since I'm comfortable teaching any of it, dd is annoyed with how they interject Christian thought where it doesn't really belong. I don't want her to spend the next 2 years annoyed. I'd rather her enjoy reading Christian concepts and ideals in their proper context. I'm out of town, but placing the order for Lial's 8th edition books when I get home.

 

I plan to use Lial's for Algebra 1 and 2. I may add in LOF this year after Christmas. Dd did 3 of his books last year and enjoyed the stories in them. For geometry, I'll probably look at Jacob's or LOF (if it can be a stand alone curriculum). Her 4th math is undecided right now (Pre-Cal or statistics). If she can do dual enrollment by her senior year, hopefully she can do something that would count as her 4th. If not, I'll let her help decide. I do want to give her a basic understanding of trig, either way.

 

All of this is depending on how well she does through Algebra 2. If she struggles, I'll do Algebra 1 & 2 review with some trig and call it Algebra 3.

[Cindy in C-ville]

 

All of this is depending on how well she does through Algebra 2. If she struggles, I'll do Algebra 1 & 2 review with some trig and call it Algebra 3.

 

Thanks, Amy! All of your post was very helpful. Regarding the above, b/c of your math background am I correct in assuming you will simply piece together an "Algebra III" course? Or, hope against hope, do you have something waiting in the wings that will match what you're thinking?

[mom31257]

Thanks, Amy! All of your post was very helpful. Regarding the above, b/c of your math background am I correct in assuming you will simply piece together an "Algebra III" course? Or, hope against hope, do you have something waiting in the wings that will match what you're thinking?

 

I do know that AoPS has an Algebra 3 course. I also wonder if Lial's College Algebra and Trig would work if we've only used Intro and Intermediate. I've not actually seen the books to know what is covered in each. If College Algebra and Trig is just a quick review of Algebra 1 & 2 plus adds in the trig and some analytical geometry, I will probably use that.

 

I don't want to piece it together if I don't have to, because at a college and career fair we attended, the admissions officers all said they want a list of textbooks used included with the transcript. I'm already piecing together her English Lit/Comp. I don't want to many subjects like that.