What is the most intellectually challenging book ever?

[Bang!Zoom!]

Any titles come to mind?

 

I'm trying to muck through some harder texts right now; and in some sick way it's fun to read hard stuff.:D

 

I keep trying to self-prove my brain has not up and gone to the Bahamas.

[Occasionally]

I have never yet made it through Joyce's Ulysses despite several attempts. Stream-of-somebody-else's-consciousness is awfully tough for me.

[Ginevra]

Out of the books I have personally read, one of the hardest was The Structure of Magic by Bandler/Grinder, but this is probably not what you want for challenging yourself unless you're interested in human psychology.

 

Some of the books I plan to read that I think are probably pretty intellectually challenging are The Wealth of Nations and any of Ayn Rand's books. I have them on my kindle, but they are a few books down on my list. I am currently reading all of The Lord of the Rings, which is certainly long and pretty heady.

[Grover]

I have never yet made it through Joyce's Ulysses despite several attempts. Stream-of-somebody-else's-consciousness is awfully tough for me.

 

:iagree:

[Alice]

That's a hard question since there are so many ways of being challenging: length, difficulty of the text, ideas that are different from mine, language.

 

I recently read War and Peace which was challenging for multiple reasons, one being the length.

 

Other fiction books that come to mind are Crime and Punishment, The Man Who Was Thursday, Till We Have Faces by C. S. Lewis and One Hundred Years of Solitude.

 

I recently read a few books by Dorothy Sayers (Creed and Chaos and the Mind of the Maker). Both were challenging because of the sheer number of references that I didn't get or had to look up.

 

One of the most challenging (and best) books I've ever read was The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down. Not because it was hard to read but it challenged a lot of my preconceived ideas about medicine and culture.

 

I recently read Brian McLaren's book A New Kind of Christianity. I disagree with most of it and didn't really like his style, but I also found it challenging and worthwhile to read as it made me think about my own faith in a way I hadn't in awhile.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Out of the books I have personally read, one of the hardest was The Structure of Magic by Bandler/Grinder, but this is probably not what you want for challenging yourself unless you're interested in human psychology.

 

 

Hey the review on this is pretty cool.\http://www.amazon.com/review/R1ACQI9ZV1XSW8/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R1ACQI9ZV1XSW8

 

Reminds me of Oliver Sacks work somehow..this portion of the review was particularly interesting to read. Had to chew on that for a second for it to reach full flavor...

 

They present an entire heuristic model of language using this structure to design and implement change of this magnitude as well. In the process of doing this they also reveal some keys to self-examination that serve to expose the worldview the reader is operating from when the reader applies them targeting themselves as the subject.

 

It's like "now you see it, now you don't, now you see it?" pow

[FaithManor]

Goedel Escher Bach (GEB) - The Eternal Braid...that took a while to wade through and really digest.

 

Saving Leonardo - Nancy Pearcy, a book on worldview expressed through art

 

 

 

Faith

[justamouse]

Right now I'm wading my way through Josef Pieper's The Four Cardinal Virtues. Not so much hard with the language, but I'm having to reread paragraphs over to wrap my brain around meaning, but so far I'm really happy I'm reading it.

[justamouse]

Goedel Escher Bach (GEB) - The Eternal Braid...that took a while to wade through and really digest.

 

 

 

 

Faith

 

Did you mention this book on the boards before? Because apparently I requested it from the library, and I was thumbing through it today.

 

So many books, so little time...

[Ginevra]

Hey the review on this is pretty cool.\http://www.amazon.com/review/R1ACQI9ZV1XSW8/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R1ACQI9ZV1XSW8

 

Reminds me of Oliver Sacks work somehow..this portion of the review was particularly interesting to read. Had to chew on that for a second for it to reach full flavor...

 

They present an entire heuristic model of language using this structure to design and implement change of this magnitude as well. In the process of doing this they also reveal some keys to self-examination that serve to expose the worldview the reader is operating from when the reader applies them targeting themselves as the subject.

 

It's like "now you see it, now you don't, now you see it?" pow

 

I never really thought of it as "now you don't." It always seemed to me like a miraculous revelation when you become self-aware of "I do this, because I think this and I think this, because I do this.

 

I'm actually amazed it's still offered in print. I read that book around...1992? And it was an old book then. Kinda makes me want to revisit it again. No - I have too much reading to accomplish already!

[Bang!Zoom!]

Goedel Escher Bach (GEB) - The Eternal Braid...that took a while to wade through and really digest.

 

Faith

 

Reading the Wickepedia entry on The Eternal Braid...ah..that sounds absolutely delicious. :lol:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del,_Escher,_Bach

 

But Faith...seriously..do you what it's like to read something of that level...er..narrow interest..ah ya...

 

and then what do you do?

 

Who are you gonna talk it over with, compare notes or thoughts?

 

I know for me- it's like standing in the middle of the desert alone with no one to talk to.

 

There's just nothing there to share it with.

 

So is it just enough to have all this stuff dancing around in your head, unspoken. Isn't it more fun when you share and "click"?

 

What do you think?

[justamouse]

and then what do you do?

 

Who are you gonna talk it over with, compare notes or thoughts?

 

I know for me- it's like standing in the middle of the desert alone with no one to talk to.

 

There's just nothing there to share it with.

 

So is it just enough to have all this stuff dancing around in your head, unspoken. Isn't it more fun when you share and "click"?

 

What do you think?

 

You come here...:D

[Bang!Zoom!]

Sometimes I finish something up, and I swear to God my head is full of bright red sparkler sticks like a Fourth of July night; and I just want to party with all these "whoa" ideas I just rode through....

 

And I look across the room. There sits my beloved with a remote and CNN; and a 8 year old and 1 American Girl doll who's loved to bits....

 

and then I think.."I really need a dog. Maybe a Golden Retriever..they are supposed to be smart dogs..I could talk to the dog about it...when he acts interested in what I'm saying, I'll feed him meaty homemade treats made from Martha Stewart magazine recipes. I'll teach him to bob his head up and down to agree with me.."

 

Confession:

 

I'm reading this book right now, called Leonardo's Mountain of Clams and the Diet of Worms...and I sorta drifted off, took a nap this afternoon...

 

and I had this dream about the book...I was on a busy street, and these five little men walked up to me, ragged, maybe from Africa or Australia, and one of them gave me the stink eye and said:

 

"You know why I'm here. I don't work overtime for nothing. Now hand over your soul." (This was a sudden gelled theory from the book, and I knew it.)

 

Bam, I woke up.

 

This book is tripping me out man.

 

My fella sent me a text from work:

 

"How you doin' love?"

 

"Okay, just took a nap. Had a dream."

 

-the end-

Edited September 27, 2011 by one*mom

[elegantlion]

My most challenging book so far has been The Elegant Universe. I wanted to understand it, but I just don't have the physics background. I made it through chapter 6. My friend who wanted to read and study with us was disappointed, she is a physics nut.

 

Most challenging book ever? No, I'm sure, but it was over my head. (this goes along with the feeling dumb thread)

[Bang!Zoom!]

Remember when Steven Hawking came out with the DVD set on Brief History of Time?

 

I used to put the Cd's in the player and sleep with headphones on playing those just in the hopes that one drop of what he was saying could sink in while I was sorta unconscious..

 

It was an ethical experiment.

[Audrey]

Sticking just to fiction and only things I have actually read, these come immediately to mind:

 

James Joyce's Ulysses

Marcel Proust's Remembrance of Things Past - all 7 volumes, not just Swann's Way

Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago

 

Eco is one of my favourite authors. I re-read Foucault's Pendulum every year or two. I like it that much. Ulysses and Remembrance of Things Past were things I had to read in university. I'm not sorry I had to read them, but I'll never re-read them. I read The Gulag Archipelago on the recommendation of a friend. Since then, I have read several other books by Solzhenitsyn. This one, however, was the one that nearly sucked the will to live right out of me. It is relentlessly tragic -- and, a good reminder. I am always glad I read it.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Audrey

[brehon]

Sometimes I finish something up, and I swear to God my head is full of bright red sparkler sticks like a Fourth of July night; and I just want to party with all these "whoa" ideas I just rode through....

 

I know exactly what you mean.

 

And I look across the room. There sits my beloved with a remote and CNN; and a 8 year old and 1 American Girl doll who's loved to bits....

 

Yeah, this, too. Only add a few more children and a very uninterested big, black lab.

 

and then I think.."I really need a dog. Maybe a Golden Retriever..they are supposed to be smart dogs..I could talk to the dog about it...when he acts interested in what I'm saying, I'll feed him meaty homemade treats made from Martha Stewart magazine recipes. I'll teach him to bob his head up and down to agree with me.."

 

Confession:

 

I'm reading this book right now, called Leonardo's Mountain of Clams and the Diet of Worms...and I sorta drifted off, took a nap this afternoon...

 

and I had this dream about the book...I was on a busy street, and these five little men walked up to me, ragged, maybe from Africa or Australia, and one of them gave me the stink eye and said:

 

"You know why I'm here. I don't work overtime for nothing. Now hand over your soul." (This was a sudden gelled theory from the book, and I knew it.)

 

Bam, I woke up.

 

This book is tripping me out man.

 

My fella sent me a text from work:

 

"How you doin' love?"

 

"Okay, just took a nap. Had a dream."

 

-the end-

 

I have bizarre dreams on a fairly regular basis. After reading a book on Richard III I dreamt that he spoke to me and tried to explain about his life and how maligned he his. Weird.

 

I also once had a dream that two friends and I were in Spain visiting a medieval castle which had been used to solicit "confessions" during the height of the Spanish Inquisition. My friends and I were poking around the dungeons when the doors shut and locked. From that point on the dream was entirely in Spanish. I do not speak or understand Spanish; but, I did in this dream. I woke up breathing fast and with my heart racing.

 

And, completely OT (please don't send the Infarction Manager after me)...

 

 

I. Hear. Thunder. Outside. And it's very grey outside!!!!!

[Bang!Zoom!]

Isn't there a secret handshake or something once you've done the Proust thing?

 

I'd be tattooing stars on my feet if I did that. That's way cool.

 

Great..now I have AC/DC stuck in my head from the "Thunderstruck" track. :)

Edited September 27, 2011 by one*mom

[brehon]

Well, crickey, I was so excited by the imminent rain storm outside that I forgot to answer the question. **squirrel!!**

 

So, hardest books...

 

Umberto Eco Foucault's Pendulum and, to an extent, The Island of the Day Before (I will say that I was much younger when I first read it and haven't had the opportunity to reread the book. I'm basing this on my experience of 2 decades past.)

James Joyce Ulysses

Almost anything by William Faulkner -- I think it's me. I just can't get into his books.

[Ria]

I have never yet made it through Joyce's Ulysses despite several attempts. Stream-of-somebody-else's-consciousness is awfully tough for me.

 

This is the one that came to mind for me. I did fine with A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, but Ulysses is beyond me still.

[Mama Geek]

Wealth of Nations

The Federalist Papers

Lucifers Hammer

[-M-]

Fiction

Finnegans Wake (James Joyce)

As I Lay Dying (William Faulkner) *

 

Non-Fiction

Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid (Douglas Hofstadter)

The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (Thomas Kuhn) *

A Grammar of Motives (Kenneth Burke) *

 

 

* I encountered the Faulkner during my post-baccalaureate studies, when I was trying to decide between counseling psych and English for grad school. To me? Then? It felt difficult. Now? I wouldn't say it's a pleasure, but I do wish I could ask my twenty-something self, "What's the big deal?" I read Motives and Grammar in my first semester of grad school (I picked English), and coupled with all of the linguistics reading, they felt difficult. Again, now? Not so much.

 

For the record, Finnegans Wake is ALWAYS difficult. Heh, heh, heh. Ulysses, though? With the right "tour guide," it's a good ride.

[Spy Car]

Ulysses is beach reading compared to Finnegan's Wake

 

Bill

[Ria]

Ulysses is beach reading compared to Finnegan's Wake

 

Bill

 

Wow. I guess I'm not going there in this lifetime. LOL. :)

[-M-]

Another non-fiction title:

 

The White Goddess: A Historical Grammar of Poetic Myth (Robert Graves)

 

Again, the level of difficulty may have had more to do with my maturity as a reader when I first encountered the book because now, all of these years later, it feels familiar. But then? Yikes. Such big ideas for a brain that was still learning to learn.

[Spy Car]

I nominate Being and Time (Sein und Zeit) by Martin Heidegger.

 

Bill

[Bang!Zoom!]

Loved the essay at MMV. Now..

 

after reading that, I'm supposed to be all domesticated and make chili and cornbread...how am I supposed to wear a straight face with that conflict scene running through my head?

 

Good gravy.

[-M-]

Oh, goodness. I thought of more. I read No Exit (John Paul Sartre) in high school and naturally thought it the coolest thing. Ever. So I read it again. And again. And drew from it (and my wildly incomplete understanding of existentialism) to impress college professors. Heh, heh, heh.

 

After tackling Sartre's "The Roads to Freedom" trilogy, I thought I was really quite amazing. And then I tried Nausea. Oh. My. Gosh. The philosophical tome Being and Nothingness was only modestly less intimidating (to me) than that. I certainly wasn't feeling so amazing after those.

 

(*wry grin*)

 

A Clockwork Orange (Anthony Burgess) is another book that I found difficult (in a much different way than the Sartre, obviously) -- the content and the "invented" language. Tricksey. Takes a while to get into.

 

And frankly? Watchmen (Alan Moore) is a hard book for me. I took a long time warming up to the graphic novel / comic book genre, and this book, though a classic, is so... dense. Oh, I'll get there. But right now, it feels about as comfortable as, well, Nausea. Heh, heh, heh.

[Onceuponatime]

Sticking just to fiction and only things I have actually read, these come immediately to mind:

 

James Joyce's Ulysses

Marcel Proust's Remembrance of Things Past - all 7 volumes, not just Swann's Way

Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago

 

Eco is one of my favourite authors. I re-read Foucault's Pendulum every year or two. I like it that much. Ulysses and Remembrance of Things Past were things I had to read in university. I'm not sorry I had to read them, but I'll never re-read them. I read The Gulag Archipelago on the recommendation of a friend. Since then, I have read several other books by Solzhenitsyn. This one, however, was the one that nearly sucked the will to live right out of me. It is relentlessly tragic -- and, a good reminder. I am always glad I read it.

 

I managed to get through 3 of Eco's fiction books with a dictionary by my side. I felt so accomplished after that that I tried to tackle one of his non-fiction books. I couldn't even understand the dictionary definitions of half the words. I had to put it down before I even finished the first chapter.

[Teachin'Mine]

Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard.

 

Sorry - I couldn't resist. :lol:

[Alessandra]

St Augustine, The City of God -- read it as part of a church group.

[WishboneDawn]

For me?

 

The Bible.

 

I read it first as an adult and during the first two years of a four year course where we also read philosophy and early Christian documents. It upended what popular culture had led me to expect was in the Bible and led me in dozens of different directions to learn more about the different genres, books, religions and cultures involved. It so familiar to most people that I don't know if it would occur to them that it might be a real challegne for some.

 

A close second was Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling which I read for the course. But it's wasn't so much challenging I guess as thrilling.

[Denisemomof4]

Any titles come to mind?

 

I'm trying to muck through some harder texts right now; and in some sick way it's fun to read hard stuff.:D

 

I keep trying to self-prove my brain has not up and gone to the Bahamas.

 

One Fish, Two Fish....... but don't tackle this unless you're TRULY ready for a mental workout.:D

 

(sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself.)

[Ginevra]

One Fish, Two Fish....... but don't tackle this unless you're TRULY ready for a mental workout.:D

 

(sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself.)

 

Pshsh! That's nothing. Have you read Fox in Socks after too much Mike's Hard? :willy_nilly:

[Word Nerd]

Pick up a copy of SWB's The Well-Educated Mind: A Guide to the Classical Education You Never Had and start following the plan, and you'll be intellectually challenged for sure!

[Spy Car]

Pick up a copy of SWB's The Well-Educated Mind: A Guide to the Classical Education You Never Had and start following the plan, and you'll be intellectually challenged for sure!

 

I know which one SWB found challenging ;) :D

 

Ishmael

[HeathenMom]

 

A Clockwork Orange (Anthony Burgess) is another book that I found difficult (in a much different way than the Sartre, obviously) -- the content and the "invented" language. Tricksey. Takes a while to get into.

 

in this same vein, Riddley Walker by Russel Hoban. i found it much more difficult than Clockwork Orange, also much more rewarding. :)

[OrganicAnn]

I was going to say Finnegan's Wake, but others bet me to it. (Ulysses is just a stroll through Dublin one fine day).

 

So I'll nominate David Foster Wallace's "Infinite Jest"

[Sharon H in IL]

I've never had more difficulty with any book than Karl Marx's The Grundrisse. Insanely hard to wade through. Add on top the fact that it's a translation, and . . . bam. Effective seditive.

 

Something by Alfred North Whitehead about Christianity was pretty darn awful that way, too. Now I'm skeerd of ANW, and won't touch any of his books.

[justamouse]

Pshsh! That's nothing. Have you read Fox in Socks after too much Mike's Hard? :willy_nilly:

 

I can read Green Eggs and Ham in 2 min 37 seconds. We can meet at the bar and see who wins the title?

[Ginevra]

I can read Green Eggs and Ham in 2 min 37 seconds. We can meet at the bar and see who wins the title?

 

True story: I hid Fox in Socks under the dresser once when dd was little. :tongue_smilie: I had enough Tweedle-Beetle Battles to last a lifetime. :tongue_smilie:

[Denisemomof4]

Pshsh! That's nothing. Have you read Fox in Socks after too much Mike's Hard? :willy_nilly:

 

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!:smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

[Denisemomof4]

I can read Green Eggs and Ham in 2 min 37 seconds. We can meet at the bar and see who wins the title?

 

if we meet at the bar, we need to band together as friends and make sure NOBODY talks about Hop on Pop after we have a few.

[Guest Frenchcoffeepress]

[Here I am to disclose that I am not a troll, rather the dd18 of Blueridge!]

Anything by Dickens is actually pretty hefty, if you take the time to truly read into it. Word by Freud, Descartes, Sartre, Kant, and others in that same vein are fairly challenging. "Total Truth" by Nancy Pearcey was meaty enough to tickle the brain...and "Alice in Wonderland" is actually somewhat of a ride when you consider the historical connotations and catch some of the political views thrown in! :001_smile:

[justamouse]

if we meet at the bar, we need to band together as friends and make sure NOBODY talks about Hop on Pop after we have a few.

 

Ok Hop on Pop is off the table, but what about the B Book? :D

[chiguirre]

Pretty much all of Kant, and on a more modern note, Wittgenstein.

 

For fiction, Ullyses was a long, hard slog. I never tried Finnegan's Wake (sober or inebriated).

[FaithManor]

Ulysses is beach reading compared to Finnegan's Wake

 

Bill

 

 

There should be a survivor support group for those that have attempted Finnegan's Wake! I have PTSD from that book. I don't even know how far I got with it. It couldn't have been far because I'm still here. If I had stayed on the hook for any length of time, I probably would have done myself a bodily harm.

 

 

Faith

[FaithManor]

Pshsh! That's nothing. Have you read Fox in Socks after too much Mike's Hard? :willy_nilly:

 

 

I WOULD PAY GOOD MONEY TO WITNESS THIS!!!!! :smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

 

Faith

[Kathleen in VA]

My most challenging book so far has been The Elegant Universe. I wanted to understand it, but I just don't have the physics background. I made it through chapter 6. My friend who wanted to read and study with us was disappointed, she is a physics nut.

 

Most challenging book ever? No, I'm sure, but it was over my head. (this goes along with the feeling dumb thread)

 

My most challenging book is filled with physics as well - The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes. The last time I posted about it I was about 1/3 the way through it and I've since finished it. Besides the physics that I slogged through, and the sheer size of it (about 600 pages), it challenged my previously held notions about the need to actually use the bomb to end WWII. I understand better now the reasoning behind the decision, and I think many of the scientists involved (especially Leo Szilard and Niels Bohr) were very naive regarding the long-term consequences of the actual existence of the bomb. I cannot imagine anyone ever thinking its use was acceptable, but, of course, I have the advantage of hind sight, as well as graphic descriptions of its effects on humans. Still, I am conflicted about whether or not it was "right at the time." The effects were not unlike methods already in use at the time such as the incendiary carpet bombing of Dresden by the British and the same kind of bombing by Americans on other Japanese cities - one might even argue that the "bomb" was more merciful than carpet bombing after you read the descriptions of eyewitnesses. And there was the stubbornness of the Emperor to contend with and the debate over whether the conditions of Japan's surrender should have been unconditional.

 

See, I'm still mulling it over - probably always will. But, ultimately I come back to the sheer horror and lack of consideration for the value of human life. Soldiers fighting is one thing (horror enough, imo), but the merciless massacre of civilians - well, I cannot come up with a reason why that's ever an acceptable solution to any problem - ever.

 

I highly recommend the book though. I'd consider it a "living book" for learning physics and chemistry. It has affected the way I teach science now.

[ElizaG]

The most challenging books I've attempted to read in recent years are Marshall McLuhan's The Classical Trivium and Catherine Pickstock's After Writing.

 

If you'd asked McLuhan himself, he might have said Finnegan's Wake (which I haven't attempted... saving it for a retirement project :tongue_smilie:).

 

All three books have something in common: they presume that the reader has a background in classical literature and philosophy, but the authors' own approaches could be described as postmodern. Either of these on its own would be challenging enough. Put them together, and my head is exploding on a regular basis.