Co-abusers?

[unsinkable]

I've read a few threads that indicate there is one abuser in a relationship...that is 100% the fault of one party.

 

Has anyone known a couple who abuse each other, either emotionally and or physically or a combo of both?

 

:confused:

[kchara]

Absolutely. I know family members that are. From what I've seen (NOT necessarily true in ALL abuse situations, just from those I have personally observed), both parties usually are somewhat abusive in some way. Many times it's not overt, but it's still there.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Yup. I know someone who is horrid to her kids and husband, and he is the same to her and kids. They're equally terrible.

[Truscifi]

Yes. My dad was verbally abusive when he was drinking (3 years sober now) and my former stepmother was emotionally manipulative and at times physically abusive. They fed into each other, each making the other worse.

[goldberry]

My parents are emotionally abusive to each other. Both mom and dad came from very dysfunctional backgrounds. Neither one of them knows how to deal with emotions or be emotionally kind to each other. It is very sad because somtimes they try, but never quite make it.

 

They have been married over 50 years, and can be SO MEAN to each other it breaks my heart.

[unsinkable]

To borrow a phrase, all I ever learned from love was how to shoot at someone who outdrew me. My parents were seriously messed up. But it was BOTH of them, not just one.

[linguistmama]

Both of my parents were emotionally abusive to each other. DH's older brother and his wife are physically abusive to each other.

 

ETA: I just want to clarify that I also know plenty of couples where it is very one sided!

Edited August 19, 2011 by linguistmama

[Scarlett]

I've read a few threads that indicate there is one abuser in a relationship...that is 100% the fault of one party.

 

Has anyone known a couple who abuse each other, either emotionally and or physically or a combo of both?

 

:confused:

 

I would say that early in my first marriage we both were pretty horrible to each other. One day I decided I wasn't going to be 'that' person any more. Although I of course didn't turn perfect, I did work hard. The weird part is that he didn't seem to notice. When he accused me of doing 'the same as him' one day (a specific behavior) I said, 'I haven't done that in 5 years' He looked shocked and tried in vain to remember a recent example to prove me wrong.

 

I always heard that if one person cleans up their behavior the other will follow suit...didn't work in my case. He only got worse. I think he hate me for no longer being down in the mud with him.

[unsinkable]

I would say that early in my first marriage we both were pretty horrible to each other. One day I decided I wasn't going to be 'that' person any more. Although I of course didn't turn perfect, I did work hard. The weird part is that he didn't seem to notice. When he accused me of doing 'the same as him' one day (a specific behavior) I said, 'I haven't done that in 5 years' He looked shocked and tried in vain to remember a recent example to prove me wrong.

 

I always heard that if one person cleans up their behavior the other will follow suit...didn't work in my case. He only got worse. I think he hate me for no longer being down in the mud with him.

 

That took courage, Scarlett. :grouphug:

[unsinkable]

Thanks for all the answers. This is something I think about often. It's good for me to hear others' thoughts.

[kalanamak]

Has anyone known a couple who abuse each other, either emotionally and or physically or a combo of both?

 

 

The ones I can think of have drugs/booze involved. Many with duel disorder, but then I meet them at work, where dual disorder is the norm.

[Rosie_0801]

Abuse is a matter of degree and yeah, dh and I are mutually abusive. It's not deliberate. He has some biochemical issues going on and our natural responses to stress cause us to behave in ways that really do emotionally damage each other, then rebound back to damage ourselves.

 

So, what can look like abuse from the outside, can be, from the inside, two people stumbling along together, doing their best to negotiate relationship problems they don't quite fully understand. At our place, it feels like abuse (to me anyway,) would look like it to anyone who knew us well enough (luckily there aren't many) but is as accidental as stomping on each other during a game of blind man's buff.

Him: "I didn't notice you were there."

Me: "I knew you were there, but I didn't know how to avoid stomping on you."

Both: "Better to stomp if it keeps us moving forward."

 

But on the bright side, we're getting better at it. :)

 

Urgh. The crap I share for the sake of education. I hope someone learns something terribly valuable coz I'd rather have kept this to myself.

 

Rosie

[Hunter's Moon]

Yes.

 

It took me years to learn that screaming matches aren't supposed to be part of a healthy relationship.

[Joanne]

I've read a few threads that indicate there is one abuser in a relationship...that is 100% the fault of one party.

 

Has anyone known a couple who abuse each other, either emotionally and or physically or a combo of both?

 

:confused:

 

To clarify for the safety of readers to whom this might apply...........

 

It is part of the abuse dynamic for the abused spouse to assume responsibility. This is often exacerbated by spirituality. For example, a Christian wife often says something like "but I am a sinner, too". A person in a 12-step program talks about "their side of the street".

 

In *abusive* relationships in which one person is abusive, the dynamic develops that the victim feels they are responsible, "too", that they have a "part". This is often reinforced by friends, family, culture, churches with sayings such as "it takes two to tango" or "there are 3 sides to a story......"

 

When it comes to abuse, the abuser is 100% responsible for the abuse. There is not a divided percentage. Yes, all humans make mistakes. Abuse victims, in a marriage, are not culpable, not responsible, not part of creating the abuse.

 

It takes 2 to MAKE a marriage. But only one to destroy one.

 

Yes, there ARE mutually abusive marriages. However, there still exists a very dangerous culture around abuse (particularly if that abuse is not physical) that serves to keep the abused spouse in the marriage; that they have a "part".

[gardenmom5]

My great-aunt (grandmother's sister) used to bait my great-uncle (grandfather's brother) until he'd beat her. she'd even whine to my grandmother about how rough her life was, absolutely whining. Then she'd hang up the phone with a really sunny mood and act like nothing was wrong. (and NOT in a suck-it-up way). an ex-dil just couldn't believe the phone conversations. (I saw the baiting firsthand)

 

Most toxic relationships I've observed are a two way street. one may be far worse than the other, but both sides often have problems and behaviors that need to be corrected.

[gardenmom5]

I always heard that if one person cleans up their behavior the other will follow suit...didn't work in my case. He only got worse. I think he hate me for no longer being down in the mud with him.

 

sounds like a hollywood fairy tale, and absolutely no bearing in reality.

 

your ex sounds like a crab. they'll pull others that are trying to escape back into the pot.

[Peela]

I always heard that if one person cleans up their behavior the other will follow suit...didn't work in my case. He only got worse. I think he hate me for no longer being down in the mud with him.

 

The way I heard it is that when one person cleans up their act the other will EITHER follow suit OR the relationship will end. There is no guarantee the partner will change, at all, but the one who is changing will not- should not- tolerate it any longer once they get healthier.

 

To clarify for the safety of readers to whom this might apply...........

 

It is part of the abuse dynamic for the abused spouse to assume responsibility. This is often exacerbated by spirituality. For example, a Christian wife often says something like "but I am a sinner, too". A person in a 12-step program talks about "their side of the street".

 

In *abusive* relationships in which one person is abusive, the dynamic develops that the victim feels they are responsible, "too", that they have a "part". This is often reinforced by friends, family, culture, churches with sayings such as "it takes two to tango" or "there are 3 sides to a story......"

 

When it comes to abuse, the abuser is 100% responsible for the abuse. There is not a divided percentage. Yes, all humans make mistakes. Abuse victims, in a marriage, are not culpable, not responsible, not part of creating the abuse.

 

It takes 2 to MAKE a marriage. But only one to destroy one.

 

Yes, there ARE mutually abusive marriages. However, there still exists a very dangerous culture around abuse (particularly if that abuse is not physical) that serves to keep the abused spouse in the marriage; that they have a "part".

 

I agree with what you are saying...that the partner who is abused tends to want to take responsibility and also to feel that if only THEY changed, their partner would too.

But I do think that a partner who is ALLOWING abuse to happen, is a part of the dynamic that is unhealthy- codependent to use that language.

 

In my experience, learning to stand up for myself was a long process that involved a lot of see sawing between too much passivity and too much aggression, in order to learn what healthy assertiveness and powerful, direct communication really looks like. Within that process, when the pendulum swings to aggressiveness to get the "abuser" out of one's face, room or house, it can be just as nasty- especially to kids looking on- as the abuser themselves. I think that might be what the OP is looking at too.

But eventually one learns to be in one's power and the aggressiveness makes way to whatever is needed- can be calm, can be walking out, can be heated anger- but somewhere inside one doesn't keep falling down to the same level as the aggressor. One is trying to move the situation onto healthier ground and no longer overwhelmed by one's owns emotional response.

 

I have a lot of experience with this and in my case, I managed to grow to meet a very powerful partner with abusive tendencies- and my own side was pretty nasty at times as well- but nowadays, I handle things with intelligence and courage, good communication and compassion, and my partner responds very well. We grew together.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

My great-aunt (grandmother's sister) used to bait my great-uncle (grandfather's brother) until he'd beat her. she'd even whine to my grandmother about how rough her life was, absolutely whining. Then she'd hang up the phone with a really sunny mood and act like nothing was wrong. (and NOT in a suck-it-up way). an ex-dil just couldn't believe the phone conversations. (I saw the baiting firsthand)

 

Most toxic relationships I've observed are a two way street. one may be far worse than the other, but both sides often have problems and behaviors that need to be corrected.

 

 

Many times the abused will move the cycle along (to an outsider it looks like "baiting the abuser") to hurry up and "get it over with" because the anticipation can feel worse than the actual abuse.

 

Do both people have problems that need to be corrected? of course, but characterizing it as the victim's fault is very hurtful and potentially dangerous and further drives home what the abuser tries to get the victim to believe, "it's all your fault/you caused this/you MADE this happen". :001_huh:

[gardenmom5]

Many times the abused will move the cycle along (to an outsider it looks like "baiting the abuser") to hurry up and "get it over with" because the anticipation can feel worse than the actual abuse.

 

Do both people have problems that need to be corrected? of course, but characterizing it as the victim's fault is very hurtful and potentially dangerous and further drives home what the abuser tries to get the victim to believe, "it's all your fault/you caused this/you MADE this happen". :001_huh:

this was not characterizing it as the "victims fault", but as they are both playing sick and twisted games against each other, and neither one is innocent of any wrongdoing. despite what you as an outsider may think, my great-aunt was not powerless, and had her share of control in that relationship. (fairly typical attitude of the women in grandmother's family - men were emotionally/mentally demeaned with passive-aggressive hostility (I still shudder at the memory of my grandmother's "laugh" when she got her "digs" in against my grandfather. and the rest of us.) and did what they were told by their wives with few exceptions.) very sick and twisted.

 

several of my grandmother's sisters (she had lots of sisters) were very sick and twisted, manipulative witches with their own children, (those that had any - one cousin stopped speaking to her mother - another sister -because she refused to submit to her *MOTHER'S* abuse).

Edited August 19, 2011 by gardenmom5

[unsinkable]

To clarify for the safety of readers to whom this might apply...........

 

It is part of the abuse dynamic for the abused spouse to assume responsibility. This is often exacerbated by spirituality. For example, a Christian wife often says something like "but I am a sinner, too". A person in a 12-step program talks about "their side of the street".

 

In *abusive* relationships in which one person is abusive, the dynamic develops that the victim feels they are responsible, "too", that they have a "part". This is often reinforced by friends, family, culture, churches with sayings such as "it takes two to tango" or "there are 3 sides to a story......"

 

When it comes to abuse, the abuser is 100% responsible for the abuse. There is not a divided percentage. Yes, all humans make mistakes. Abuse victims, in a marriage, are not culpable, not responsible, not part of creating the abuse.

 

It takes 2 to MAKE a marriage. But only one to destroy one.

 

Yes, there ARE mutually abusive marriages. However, there still exists a very dangerous culture around abuse (particularly if that abuse is not physical) that serves to keep the abused spouse in the marriage; that they have a "part".

 

The part I bolded helps clarify things for me. I agree with that.

[unsinkable]

The way I heard it is that when one person cleans up their act the other will EITHER follow suit OR the relationship will end. There is no guarantee the partner will change, at all, but the one who is changing will not- should not- tolerate it any longer once they get healthier.

 

 

 

I agree with what you are saying...that the partner who is abused tends to want to take responsibility and also to feel that if only THEY changed, their partner would too.

But I do think that a partner who is ALLOWING abuse to happen, is a part of the dynamic that is unhealthy- codependent to use that language.

 

In my experience, learning to stand up for myself was a long process that involved a lot of see sawing between too much passivity and too much aggression, in order to learn what healthy assertiveness and powerful, direct communication really looks like. Within that process, when the pendulum swings to aggressiveness to get the "abuser" out of one's face, room or house, it can be just as nasty- especially to kids looking on- as the abuser themselves. I think that might be what the OP is looking at too. But eventually one learns to be in one's power and the aggressiveness makes way to whatever is needed- can be calm, can be walking out, can be heated anger- but somewhere inside one doesn't keep falling down to the same level as the aggressor. One is trying to move the situation onto healthier ground and no longer overwhelmed by one's owns emotional response.

 

I have a lot of experience with this and in my case, I managed to grow to meet a very powerful partner with abusive tendencies- and my own side was pretty nasty at times as well- but nowadays, I handle things with intelligence and courage, good communication and compassion, and my partner responds very well. We grew together.

 

Re the part I bolded: That probably does apply to my childhood to some extent.

[Impish]

My great-aunt (grandmother's sister) used to bait my great-uncle (grandfather's brother) until he'd beat her. she'd even whine to my grandmother about how rough her life was, absolutely whining. Then she'd hang up the phone with a really sunny mood and act like nothing was wrong. (and NOT in a suck-it-up way). an ex-dil just couldn't believe the phone conversations. (I saw the baiting firsthand)

 

Most toxic relationships I've observed are a two way street. one may be far worse than the other, but both sides often have problems and behaviors that need to be corrected.

Bull doody.

 

It doesn't matter how a person 'baits' another. There is never enough provocation for anyone to beat another person. Period. Nobody 'deserves' it, and by saying she could bait her dh until he beat her is like saying she earned the beating.

 

Complete, utter, bull doody.

 

I could, if I choose, call Wolf the vilest names. I could scream, rant, yell. I could take everything he holds dear (material items) and trample them under my feet. The only time he would ever raise a hand to me would be if I attacked him and he had to defend himself enough to be able to get out of the house and away from the crazy wench thats taken over his wife's body.

[JudoMom]

That took courage, Scarlett. :grouphug:

 

:iagree:

[BamaTanya]

My great-aunt (grandmother's sister) used to bait my great-uncle (grandfather's brother) until he'd beat her. she'd even whine to my grandmother about how rough her life was, absolutely whining. Then she'd hang up the phone with a really sunny mood and act like nothing was wrong. (and NOT in a suck-it-up way). an ex-dil just couldn't believe the phone conversations. (I saw the baiting firsthand)

 

Most toxic relationships I've observed are a two way street. one may be far worse than the other, but both sides often have problems and behaviors that need to be corrected.

 

I had relatives with a similar relationship. It was heartbreaking. I have not studied psychology enough to know what their classification would be, but the "roles" they played in their marriage destroyed the emotional health of their children.

 

From my limited understanding (never having lived in their home), he was controlling of his wife, physically abusive to his children, and had an explosive temper. She made choices, seemingly on purpose, that she knew would anger him. For instance, if he said, "I love your long hair," she might go the next day to get a short haircut. And maybe cut their daughters' hair, too. And she would treat their dc as partners-in-crime, doing things behind the dh's back and getting them to keep secrets.

 

Was she passive-aggressive? Was she trying to create a warm relationship between her and her dc in spite of the turmoil they all felt with the dh?

 

I have no idea.

 

They divorced at one point, and this was when divorces were quite uncommon. And then they remarried each other. And then split up. Back and forth.

 

People said they "couldn't live with each other and couldn't live without each other."

 

I suspect she had no way of making a living on her own. :confused1: That, combined with her sense of commitment . . .

 

Sigh.

 

Yes, he was responsible for the abuse. I suspect alcoholism played a large part in his behavior, and that, of course, does not excuse it.

 

I wish she had been able -- emotionally and financially -- to permanently remove herself and her dc from that home.

 

In another story: I literally remember when a woman's extended family did not support her escape from an abusive dh. That they went and convinced her to go back to him. :crying:

[Scarlett]

To clarify for the safety of readers to whom this might apply...........

 

It is part of the abuse dynamic for the abused spouse to assume responsibility. This is often exacerbated by spirituality. For example, a Christian wife often says something like "but I am a sinner, too". A person in a 12-step program talks about "their side of the street".

 

In *abusive* relationships in which one person is abusive, the dynamic develops that the victim feels they are responsible, "too", that they have a "part". This is often reinforced by friends, family, culture, churches with sayings such as "it takes two to tango" or "there are 3 sides to a story......"

 

When it comes to abuse, the abuser is 100% responsible for the abuse. There is not a divided percentage. Yes, all humans make mistakes. Abuse victims, in a marriage, are not culpable, not responsible, not part of creating the abuse.

 

It takes 2 to MAKE a marriage. But only one to destroy one.

 

Yes, there ARE mutually abusive marriages. However, there still exists a very dangerous culture around abuse (particularly if that abuse is not physical) that serves to keep the abused spouse in the marriage; that they have a "part".

 

Good points. I do not believe this was every my mindset. I knew he was 100% responsible for his behavior. I didn't think I 'deserved' mistreatment or even that I ever provoked him. He did provoke ME and that is where I had a problem. I allowed myself to get down to his level with my reactions. THAT is what I changed. I had/have a red hot temper. I no longer allow myself to let that temper get the best of me. I haven't for 15 or 20 years.

[Scarlett]

In my experience, learning to stand up for myself was a long process that involved a lot of see sawing between too much passivity and too much aggression, in order to learn what healthy assertiveness and powerful, direct communication really looks like. Within that process, when the pendulum swings to aggressiveness to get the "abuser" out of one's face, room or house, it can be just as nasty- especially to kids looking on- as the abuser themselves. I think that might be what the OP is looking at too.

But eventually one learns to be in one's power and the aggressiveness makes way to whatever is needed- can be calm, can be walking out, can be heated anger- but somewhere inside one doesn't keep falling down to the same level as the aggressor. One is trying to move the situation onto healthier ground and no longer overwhelmed by one's owns emotional response.

 

I have a lot of experience with this and in my case, I managed to grow to meet a very powerful partner with abusive tendencies- and my own side was pretty nasty at times as well- but nowadays, I handle things with intelligence and courage, good communication and compassion, and my partner responds very well. We grew together.

 

Wow. I have never read such a perfect description of my metamorphasis. Unfortunately MY XH didn't grow with me.