VBS and preaching salvation cc

[Ellesmere]

We all brainwash our children every single day. Brainwashing is just teaching someone to believe like you do. Each church believes it's the "right" church and so wants everyone to believe that way. I think there are very few that have truly evil motivations.

 

 

I would not want to be accused of brainwashing my children.

[A home for their hearts]

Stories told in the vbs in the OP start with scaring children. Preying on their fears of vulnerility and loneliness, they speak as the authority of Parents Who Know because you know, they're just kids and they've been taught to listen and learn. Were I to explain this same method in another religion (say, Islam), I suspect words like "cruel" and "dangerous" would be applied.

 

:iagree:

 

I haven't been able to read all the responses but I wanted to try and clarify some things that have been brought up.

 

I'm not very knowledgeable of the various denominations of christianity. When I decided to let my dc attend this VBS it was because we had had great experiences at two different VBS's in years past, not at this same church. Never once was any kind of salvation talk brought up in these other churches, so it wasn't something that was in my realm of thinking. I realize now that I was naive going into it. I consider myself a christian but I do not know a lot about the bible or the different doctorines of different churches. The church that my dc attended this week was Baptist, I had no idea, until now, that they are big on preaching salvation. This church is where my co-op meets so we know a lot of families that go their and I felt comfortable letting my children attend their VBS because of that. We do not currently go to church and I'm not one to just drop my dc off for free babysitting! I always stick around, and I'm glad I did so I knew what was going on!

 

I do not agree with teaching children that they are sinners and they need to accept Jesus or they can't go to heaven. Some of the things I heard this week were: "you can only be part of God's family if you accept Jesus...don't you want to be part of that family?" "If you want your name written in God's book you need to accept Jesus as your Saviour" and "God only listens to your prayers if you are part of His family, if you want to be part of his family you need to accept Jesus as your Saviour" Those are some of the things that really made me raise my eyebrows.

 

I know people are probably wondering now if I'm so against what they were preaching why didn't I pull them out? I really don't know. They were having such a good time and really loved it. I was really torn. I plan on sitting down with them and talking about some of the things that were said this week and tell them what my beliefs are.

[A home for their hearts]

No kidding. It always surprises me when people are upset that a church preaches salvation at VBS.

 

This is something that I was honestly not expecting. From our previous experiences with VBS and from my memories of attending VBS as a child, I never even thought this was something that could/would be preach a VBS. I think this is over stepping the bounds on parental authority. I don't think they have the right to make dc feel like they are not part of God's family if they are not saved.

[Parrothead]

This is something that I was honestly not expecting. From our previous experiences with VBS and from my memories of attending VBS as a child, I never even thought this was something that could/would be preach a VBS. I think this is over stepping the bounds on parental authority. I don't think they have the right to make dc feel like they are not part of God's family if they are not saved.

The thing is that the people who go to this particular church probably know exactly what is being taught at the VBS.

 

It would be like me sending my Catholic kid to a Baptist VBS and being surprised being saved came up numerous times.

 

You really do need to look into what is at the core of the church you end your kids to if it is different than your home church.

[Mama Geek]

OP, you say that you are a Christian. In most mainstream churches salvation is part of the beliefs. The baptist churches are much more blunt about it than most. Do you not believe that Christ is the path to Heaven? I can understand not liking their approach, but I hope it is not the belief that you have a problem with.

 

I know if you walk into most Lutheran churches you will eventually hear that Christ is the path to Heaven.

[OnTheBrink]

This is something that I was honestly not expecting. From our previous experiences with VBS and from my memories of attending VBS as a child, I never even thought this was something that could/would be preach a VBS. I think this is over stepping the bounds on parental authority. I don't think they have the right to make dc feel like they are not part of God's family if they are not saved.

 

I want to expand on my thoughts. I posted my response from my phone while at work and didn't have the time or patience to deal with typing a longer response on my phone.

 

My church doesn't do a "sinner's prayer" type of thing, or an alter call, or try to corner a child into making a profession of faith. VBS is a presentation of the gospel of Christ. It's fun. There are crafts and snacks (not only cookies! We have fruit, raw veggies, and pretzels, too!) but in no way is a child pressured into making any sort of decision. Seeds are planted and if a child approaches a leader and asks more about salvation, or says they've repented and want salvation, then that's dealt with individually with that child.

 

But, the gospel is there. The bible is read and talked about daily. That's why it's Vacation Bible School and not Vacation Have Fun Making Trashy Crafts and Eating Cookies School. ;) Over the past 25 years, I've been a part of VBS's from a non-denom mega church, several Southern Baptist churches and my current non-denom Bible church and it's been relatively similar at each place. VBS was the week that the kids are focused on for the presentation of the gospel.

 

So, that's why I'm always surprised that people are upset that a church would have a VBS that teaches the kids the Bible! I do agree that pressuring a child to make a decision is wrong and manipulating or vaguely threatening a child with hell if they don't "get saved" is emotionally abusive and I would certainly protest that!

[A home for their hearts]

While I agree that parents should know a church's doctrine before allowing their children to attend VBS there, it's not always so simple. Churches around here (mostly Southern Baptist) encourage kids to go to VBS, and they talk about how much fun they'll have. The kids then beg their parents to go, and their parents, though not overly religious, believe in God and imagine their kids singing a few "Jesus Loves Me"–type songs and then playing games and doing arts and crafts. I truly see some churches as being deceitful in the way they encourage kids to attend VBS.

 

:iagree:

 

This is why it is really hard for us to find a decent VBS for our kids to go to. We don't believe in pushing children into a false salvation. In my opinion salvation will happen when God does a work in your childs heart (whether it be at age or 6 or not until 45). VBS should be a fun time of learning about Jesus, but your child should not be pushed into "the sinners prayer." This is a HUGE pet peeve for mine!

 

:iagree:

 

 

 

My church doesn't do a "sinner's prayer" type of thing, or an alter call, or try to corner a child into making a profession of faith. VBS is a presentation of the gospel of Christ. It's fun. There are crafts and snacks (not only cookies! We have fruit, raw veggies, and pretzels, too!) but in no way is a child pressured into making any sort of decision. Seeds are planted and if a child approaches a leader and asks more about salvation, or says they've repented and want salvation, then that's dealt with individually with that child.

 

But, the gospel is there. The bible is read and talked about daily. That's why it's Vacation Bible School and not Vacation Have Fun Making Trashy Crafts and Eating Cookies School. ;) Over the past 25 years, I've been a part of VBS's from a non-denom mega church, several Southern Baptist churches and my current non-denom Bible church and it's been relatively similar at each place. VBS was the week that the kids are focused on for the presentation of the gospel.

 

So, that's why I'm always surprised that people are upset that a church would have a VBS that teaches the kids the Bible! I do agree that pressuring a child to make a decision is wrong and manipulating or vaguely threatening a child with hell if they don't "get saved" is emotionally abusive and I would certainly protest that!

 

I am not surprised at all that a VBS would teach the Bible, what surprised me was the teaching of Salvation. It was preached during closing time everynight. A bible point would be made, and then they were led and prayer, I'm guessing some sort of sinners prayer, and then the children were told that if they prayed that prayer to come forward because they had some information for them.

[Cheryl in NM]

Certainly not!

 

 

 

No, teaching someone what you believe is teaching. Coupling lessons with emotional manipulation such as fear and terror by threatening an eternity of torment for not believing, equating doubt with non belief or equating reason with doubt are coercive tactics designed to dissuade the child from allowing his or her natural curiosity to develop. Instead of teaching and allowing for one to process information and accept or reject it based on the merits of the belief, this kind of emotional terrorism as described in the OP functions to scare a child for life and fear motivates the belief. That's brainwashing, not teaching. It's manipulative, and cruel and abusive and if it were any other community, say an art camp or music camp, this kind of thing wouldn't be tolerated for a single day. If it were the tactics used in a Muslim Day Camp, the media would be all over it.

 

Which ought to inspire a child to think for a moment that if every church believes they're the "right" one, and to pull out for a second and assume every religion thinks they're the "right" one, then what does *this* church have over any other? The only thing they have is a terrified, captive, elementary school aged audience. For all the talk about the bible being "clear," it's far from clear as any rudimentary exploration into the different ways the theology can be dissected and reinterpreted will illustrate.

I seriously doubt that the VBS the OP described was as you describe above. After all, she left her children there all week, even after learning what they were teaching and not agreeing with it, because they were having fun.

 

You are misunderstanding me about what I meant when I said "brainwash". There is an emotional link between parents and children. When parents become disappointed in their children the children are afraid their parents don't love them. Thus, the children try to please the parents.

 

There are some very clear truths in the Bible. The important ones are very clear and are not contradicted within the Bible.

 

Take away your assumptions and your beliefs for a moment and think about what you "know" about your religion and see how many presumptions stand as fact.

 

Yes, actually I have, just today in fact, in response to this thread. This thread has touched me personally so I reviewed my beliefs.

 

I would not want to be accused of brainwashing my children.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of definition 2: persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship. See earlier in this post for more detail. Brainwashing isn't always like a POW camp.

[annandatje]

While I agree that parents should know a church's doctrine before allowing their children to attend VBS there, it's not always so simple. Churches around here (mostly Southern Baptist) encourage kids to go to VBS, and they talk about how much fun they'll have. The kids then beg their parents to go, and their parents, though not overly religious, believe in God and imagine their kids singing a few "Jesus Loves Me"–type songs and then playing games and doing arts and crafts. I truly see some churches as being deceitful in the way they encourage kids to attend VBS.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: The Southern Baptist megachurch in my area engages in just such practices as you described.

 

Many years ago, in a different part of country, my family had moved to a new town. Eager to fit in, I accepted a schoolmate's invitation to their church. She assured me it was all fun and games. Monday through Thursday consisted of goofy crafts (piggy bank made from bleach bottle), benign music, and games. Friday was a Southern Baptist pulpit-pounding emotional sermon calling for sinners to be saved. I sat stiffly in the pew and steadfastly ignored my VBS teacher's persistent admonitions to me only to accept Jesus into my heart or face eternal flames. Her other charges had went to altar or were already "saved." Some of the kids were crying; one girl was literally shaking. Although I was not frightened because I did not find the eternal ****ation threat credible, I did feel bad for the kids if they were crying from fear instead of joy.

 

I do not fault the church or the SBC; I was the uninformed child who made poor decision.

 

When I told this story to co-workers a few years ago, one of them, a Southern Baptist, insisted that the Southern Baptists no longer did "altar calls" in VBS. This statement perplexed me because that co-worker is a member of the SB megachurch here that DOES engage in altar calls during VBS.

[Cheryl in NM]

The church I've been taking my dc to VBS this week has really been pushing children to be 'saved'. They've been preaching a lot of, 'we are all sinners, but if you accept Jesus as your Saviour, and believe in him then He will forgive you and you will have eternal life'. They even go so far as to have a time of prayer at the end of each day and tell the children that they can ask Jesus to come into their hearts, and ask Him to forgive their sins and they will be saved. I was a little dissapointed to hear this when I came to pick up my dc. My belief is that Jesus accepts all children into his kingdom whether they are saved or not. That seems to be the going theme of this VBS, that you have to be saved if you want to enter His kingdon. My dc have had a great time and I know people at this church. I'm just not sure this should be something preached over and over to children. I don't know though. Would this be something common at VBS's? The previous VBS my dc attended wasn't so crazy about 'accept Jesus and you will go to heaven one day' I think this is something better reserved for when children are older and can really understand the depth of that decision. My ds7 even told me that there was a stain on his heart and that when he accepted Jesus it was wiped away. What are your thoughs?

 

The bolded statement leads me to believe that you left your children at VBS and were surprised at what was taught when you picked them up.

 

This is something that I was honestly not expecting. From our previous experiences with VBS and from my memories of attending VBS as a child, I never even thought this was something that could/would be preach a VBS. I think this is over stepping the bounds on parental authority. I don't think they have the right to make dc feel like they are not part of God's family if they are not saved.

 

Yet, according the post below, you sat there and allowed this? IMO, this church did not overstep "your" parental authority, you consented by sitting there and not removing your children when you were offended by the teaching.

:iagree:

 

I haven't been able to read all the responses but I wanted to try and clarify some things that have been brought up.

 

I'm not very knowledgeable of the various denominations of christianity. When I decided to let my dc attend this VBS it was because we had had great experiences at two different VBS's in years past, not at this same church. Never once was any kind of salvation talk brought up in these other churches, so it wasn't something that was in my realm of thinking. I realize now that I was naive going into it. I consider myself a christian but I do not know a lot about the bible or the different doctorines of different churches. The church that my dc attended this week was Baptist, I had no idea, until now, that they are big on preaching salvation. This church is where my co-op meets so we know a lot of families that go their and I felt comfortable letting my children attend their VBS because of that. We do not currently go to church and I'm not one to just drop my dc off for free babysitting! I always stick around, and I'm glad I did so I knew what was going on!

 

I do not agree with teaching children that they are sinners and they need to accept Jesus or they can't go to heaven. Some of the things I heard this week were: "you can only be part of God's family if you accept Jesus...don't you want to be part of that family?" "If you want your name written in God's book you need to accept Jesus as your Saviour" and "God only listens to your prayers if you are part of His family, if you want to be part of his family you need to accept Jesus as your Saviour" Those are some of the things that really made me raise my eyebrows.

 

I know people are probably wondering now if I'm so against what they were preaching why didn't I pull them out? I really don't know. They were having such a good time and really loved it. I was really torn. I plan on sitting down with them and talking about some of the things that were said this week and tell them what my beliefs are.

 

In your first post it sounded like you dropped your children off and were surprised at what they had learned. In the next post I quoted you felt they overstepped parental authority, now in this post you state you were there the whole time. Then you admit that the offense you took at the teachings was not more important than the fun they were having.

 

Why on earth did you post and open this can of worms? Why in the first post did it sound like you didn't know what was going on and now we find out that you made a conscious decision to allow them to stay?

[albeto]

I seriously doubt that the VBS the OP described was as you describe above. After all, she left her children there all week, even after learning what they were teaching and not agreeing with it, because they were having fun.

 

Let's look at that for a moment.

 

I'd said,

 

Coupling lessons with emotional manipulation such as fear and terror by threatening an eternity of torment for not believing, equating doubt with non belief or equating reason with doubt are coercive tactics designed to dissuade the child from allowing his or her natural curiosity to develop.

 

The OP explains:

 

The church I've been taking my dc to VBS this week has really been pushing children to be 'saved'. They've been preaching a lot of, 'we are all sinners, but if you accept Jesus as your Saviour, and believe in him then He will forgive you and you will have eternal life'.

 

Pushing to be saved. Saved from what? Saved from an eternity of torment. Children are concrete thinkers. You tell them there's a lake of fire that never burns out and a person can survive forever and never burn up but always be in pain, that's exactly the image that will remain with the child. That imagery isn't a coincidence - it's meant to be horrifying and dramatic so it never leaves because should that child loose fear, that child may no longer "choose Jesus" and then Jesus won't really have forgiven them and they won't be saved from this horrifying vision. The implied alternative to the option of choosing "saved" is the option of choosing "****ed" and even if kids don't know exactly what that means, they know burns and they know pain and they know a long, long time. That's coercive because the choice is made from the point of view of fear and desperate hope of avoiding the Worst Thing Imaginable.

 

You are misunderstanding me about what I meant when I said "brainwash". There is an emotional link between parents and children. When parents become disappointed in their children the children are afraid their parents don't love them. Thus, the children try to please the parents.

 

Disappointment isn't brainwashing. Brainwashing is behavioral conditioning - connecting a neutral event or idea to a positive or negative emotion (think Pavlov's dogs salivating at the sound of a bell - neutral - in anticipation of food - positive event). The neutral idea of Jesus is conditioned to the negative emotion of fear and horror. The neutral idea of Jesus is then conditioned to the positive emotion of being "saved" from that fearful and horrible possibility. The vbs clinches this brainwashing at the end of each day by offering "a time of prayer at the end of each day and tell the children that they can ask Jesus to come into their hearts, and ask Him to forgive their sins and they will be saved." It's a very solid connection whereby the emotional manipulation of scaring children is then followed by offering the only possible escape:

 

you have to be saved if you want to enter His kingdon.

 

This is emotional manipulation (in the extreme, brainwashing) and not what respectful, compassionate parents do.

 

There are some very clear truths in the Bible. The important ones are very clear and are not contradicted within the Bible.

 

You might consider the fact that your interpretation of the Bible isn't acceptable to everyone (not all Christians, much less anyone who actually has read the Bible and pondered its meaning) and since the Bible itself doesn't say which interpretation is the accurate one, the idea of showing the Bible as "true" has yet to be even remotely shown in any kind of meaningful way.

 

Yes, actually I have, just today in fact, in response to this thread. This thread has touched me personally so I reviewed my beliefs.

 

You don't seem to be taking into account the fact that the Bible is currently interpreted in thousands of different ways and these interpretations have evolved over time. How the Bible was used as authoritative during America's Civil War, for example, is unacceptable by most Americans today. No one would publicly preach that God's Word advocates the proper Christian authority over the black man, not if they expected to be taken seriously. Generations ago (a short time in the Bible's own history) this was argued thoroughly as being not only a viable interpretation, but the "clear" interpretation.

 

You don't seem to be taking into account the fact that the Christian faith is based on belief, responses to events and emotions, interpreted within a supernatural framework that cannot be proven and so must be accepted "on faith" and that, for the non Christian, is nothing more than the Christian belief. Really really believing something doesn't make it real, even if it feels that way deep down to your bones. Assuming that your emotions are in any way evidence for reality is a presumption that stops with you (and those who believe as you do). For the same reason you can't accept the Qu'ran as "truth," you can't offer the Bible as "truth" in any meaningful way outside the parameters of your own belief system.

 

That these so-called truths are connected to emotions reinforces the idea of brainwashing. A choice made on emotions alone, regardless of reason to the contrary, is not a choice freely made, and this is the process which the children in the vbs the OP writes about is currently undergoing.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of definition 2: persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship. See earlier in this post for more detail. Brainwashing isn't always like a POW camp.

 

Heaven and Hell aren't salesmanship. They're fear-based. If Hell weren't a consideration, how popular would "being saved" be?

[albeto]

Why on earth did you post and open this can of worms? Why in the first post did it sound like you didn't know what was going on and now we find out that you made a conscious decision to allow them to stay?

 

The idea that it's a Christian event and Christian events are safe might be what tripped up the OP. There's a cognitive dissonance between what one thinks the faith teaches and just what message is learned.

[Sputterduck]

Heaven and Hell aren't salesmanship. They're fear-based. If Hell weren't a consideration, how popular would "being saved" be?

 

Well, if you really want to know the answer to that question you can just look at the Jehovah's Witnesses. They don't believe in Hell and they are *just as* concerned about salvation. So there you go.

 

And besides, fear of Hell is not the same as loving God and accepting Him. Fear of Hell doesn't lead to salvation. Jesus does.

[albeto]

Well, if you really want to know the answer to that question you can just look at the Jehovah's Witnesses. They don't believe in Hell and they are *just as* concerned about salvation. So there you go.

 

Sure, because anyone who isn't "in God's memory" won't be resurrected. Salvation means eternal life.

 

And besides, fear of avoiding Hell is not the same as loving God and accepting Him. Fear of Hell doesn't lead to salvation. Jesus does.

 

Avoiding Hell is how Loving God is introduced in this vbs in the OP. God is loved because he saves from Hell.

[Sputterduck]

God is loved because he saves from Hell.

 

I have never come across a Christian or a church who felt or taught that way.

 

You seem angry and like you have an axe to grind. Are you?

[Cheryl in NM]

Let's look at that for a moment.

 

I'd said,

 

 

 

The OP explains:

 

 

 

Pushing to be saved. Saved from what? Saved from an eternity of torment. Children are concrete thinkers. You tell them there's a lake of fire that never burns out and a person can survive forever and never burn up but always be in pain, that's exactly the image that will remain with the child. That imagery isn't a coincidence - it's meant to be horrifying and dramatic so it never leaves because should that child loose fear, that child may no longer "choose Jesus" and then Jesus won't really have forgiven them and they won't be saved from this horrifying vision. The implied alternative to the option of choosing "saved" is the option of choosing "****ed" and even if kids don't know exactly what that means, they know burns and they know pain and they know a long, long time. That's coercive because the choice is made from the point of view of fear and desperate hope of avoiding the Worst Thing Imaginable.

 

 

 

Disappointment isn't brainwashing. Brainwashing is behavioral conditioning - connecting a neutral event or idea to a positive or negative emotion (think Pavlov's dogs salivating at the sound of a bell - neutral - in anticipation of food - positive event). The neutral idea of Jesus is conditioned to the negative emotion of fear and horror. The neutral idea of Jesus is then conditioned to the positive emotion of being "saved" from that fearful and horrible possibility. The vbs clinches this brainwashing at the end of each day by offering "a time of prayer at the end of each day and tell the children that they can ask Jesus to come into their hearts, and ask Him to forgive their sins and they will be saved." It's a very solid connection whereby the emotional manipulation of scaring children is then followed by offering the only possible escape:

 

 

 

This is emotional manipulation (in the extreme, brainwashing) and not what respectful, compassionate parents do.

 

 

 

You might consider the fact that your interpretation of the Bible isn't acceptable to everyone (not all Christians, much less anyone who actually has read the Bible and pondered its meaning) and since the Bible itself doesn't say which interpretation is the accurate one, the idea of showing the Bible as "true" has yet to be even remotely shown in any kind of meaningful way.

 

 

 

You don't seem to be taking into account the fact that the Bible is currently interpreted in thousands of different ways and these interpretations have evolved over time. How the Bible was used as authoritative during America's Civil War, for example, is unacceptable by most Americans today. No one would publicly preach that God's Word advocates the proper Christian authority over the black man, not if they expected to be taken seriously. Generations ago (a short time in the Bible's own history) this was argued thoroughly as being not only a viable interpretation, but the "clear" interpretation.

 

You don't seem to be taking into account the fact that the Christian faith is based on belief, responses to events and emotions, interpreted within a supernatural framework that cannot be proven and so must be accepted "on faith" and that, for the non Christian, is nothing more than the Christian belief. Really really believing something doesn't make it real, even if it feels that way deep down to your bones. Assuming that your emotions are in any way evidence for reality is a presumption that stops with you (and those who believe as you do). For the same reason you can't accept the Qu'ran as "truth," you can't offer the Bible as "truth" in any meaningful way outside the parameters of your own belief system.

 

That these so-called truths are connected to emotions reinforces the idea of brainwashing. A choice made on emotions alone, regardless of reason to the contrary, is not a choice freely made, and this is the process which the children in the vbs the OP writes about is currently undergoing.

 

 

 

Heaven and Hell aren't salesmanship. They're fear-based. If Hell weren't a consideration, how popular would "being saved" be?

 

When I asked you to research your misconceptions of Christianity I refreshed mine. The Bible states that the only way to God is through Christ. I'm pretty sure that all Christian religions (which is what we've been debating) believe this. This is what I'm talking about when I talk about the truth of the Bible that can't be misinterpreted. We have only been talking about Christianity on this thread, in fact, only Protestant Christianity so your continual references to Islam don't apply.

 

As far as the "brainwash" issue, I clarified my meaning earlier. Accept it or don't, but I'm done arguing it.

 

It appears that you aren't interested in dialogue. I see that you are new to these boards. We really try to respect each other and each other's viewpoints. We try to see each other's points of view. We are not always successful. But we are usually striving to learn and help others.

[Dirtroad]

I would absolutely expect that at a vacation *Bible* school.

:iagree:

[Cheryl in NM]

I have never come across a Christian or a church who felt or taught that way.

 

You seem angry and like you have an axe to grind. Are you?

 

:iagree: with the part in bold.

 

The heart of the gospel is "God is love."

[Cheryl in NM]

Sure, because anyone who isn't "in God's memory" won't be resurrected. Salvation means eternal life..

 

 

Everyone is in God's memory. He loves each and every one of us whether we acknowledge him or not.

 

Avoiding Hell is how Loving God is introduced in this vbs in the OP. God is loved because he saves from Hell.

 

Actually, that's not what she said. She never once said this VBS told the kids about hell or the lake of fire, that was another poster relating a personal story.

[Cheryl in NM]

The idea that it's a Christian event and Christian events are safe might be what tripped up the OP. There's a cognitive dissonance between what one thinks the faith teaches and just what message is learned.

 

The first post was misleading. There is evil everywhere, even in the church. In fact, satan targets the church most because that is where he is most threatened.

[albeto]

I have never come across a Christian or a church who felt or taught that way.

 

It's part of the theology of protestant theology as I understand it - "salvation" refers to the theology of justification by which the person is spared death and hell which is the wage for sin.

 

You seem angry and like you have an axe to grind. Are you?

 

No ax to grind here. I'm simply responding to the idea of young children who are being scared about the concept of sin and hell and salvation in what the OP thought would be a pleasant vbs day camp. She asked for thoughts. I hope I haven't overstepped bounds here and apologize if I have.

[amey311]

Actually, that's not what she said. She never once said this VBS told the kids about hell or the lake of fire, that was another poster relating a personal story.

 

Right, I told the "lake of fire" story.

 

ALBETO said: "God is loved because he saves from Hell." (i forgot to add that comment to my multi-quote.

 

And while that specific phrase isn't there, I feel it's implied from the things the OP did say: (bolding mine)

:iagree:

 

I do not agree with teaching children that they are sinners and they need to accept Jesus or they can't go to heaven. Some of the things I heard this week were: "you can only be part of God's family if you accept Jesus...don't you want to be part of that family?" "If you want your name written in God's book you need to accept Jesus as your Saviour" and "God only listens to your prayers if you are part of His family, if you want to be part of his family you need to accept Jesus as your Saviour" Those are some of the things that really made me raise my eyebrows.

 

I know people are probably wondering now if I'm so against what they were preaching why didn't I pull them out? I really don't know. They were having such a good time and really loved it. I was really torn. I plan on sitting down with them and talking about some of the things that were said this week and tell them what my beliefs are.

 

So, while the term HELL isn't included, there's a definite "in group" and "out group" divisor there - join us (the in group) or you'll be left behind. Children want to be part of the FAMILY (and that's how it's presented here - as a family). Would children really want to be excluded from a family and all the love and protection that comes with that?

 

The OP, because she didn't pull her kids immediately, now has to explain why the fun people who gave her kids snacks and played games with them maybe lied to them. Or at least they think differently from mom and dad. And who knows what else they did teach these kids ("other people will tell you that you don't have to do this, that jesus loves everyone, but that's not true! jesus only loves those who love him back" or whatever).

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

 

The OP, because she didn't pull her kids immediately, now has to explain why the fun people who gave her kids snacks and played games with them maybe lied to them. Or at least they think differently from mom and dad. And who knows what else they did teach these kids ("other people will tell you that you don't have to do this, that jesus loves everyone, but that's not true! jesus only loves those who love him back" or whatever).

 

You do realize that I could have my pick of churches (of a variety of denominations, whether Protestant or not) which do not teach the Bible as I believe the Bible presents its message, right? I have no doubt that the workers in each one of these churches love kids and provide games and fun and snacks along with teaching that I don't agree with and which I could characterize as lies simply because I don't believe it teaches truth. Those "lies" could be nice lies but I would believe them to be lies none the less. So this characterization of churches spreading lies can go more than one way.

 

If you are handing over the religious teaching of your children to someone else, it is your responsibility to find out more than if they have fun games or snacks. It is your responsibility to find out if their teaching matches your own. If you don't, then you have to deal with the dissonance in teaching. If you choose to put your kid's enjoyment over your religious values or beliefs then again, you have to deal with the results. I don't think it's fair to cry "unfair" when the responsibility lies with the parent to find a good fit. Now, if the person did exercise due diligence and was lied to (not the case in this instance) then that would be a whole 'nother ball of wax. Now a better question for the OP to have started a thread on would have been, "Now that I created this situation, how do I fix it?"

[boscopup]

Well, I am just not paranoid of a sinner's prayer but also the idea that Catholics are not Christians. My one friend who is former Catholic now CoC made a comment once about how she was such a new Christian ie when she was Catholic she wasn't a Christian. I do not trust any other groups not to make similiar comments or plant little seeds contrary to our faith, it isn't worth the risk to me. Even if it isn't intentional I don't want it happening.

 

I agree that you wouldn't want to send your Catholic children to a non-Catholic VBS if you don't want them learning something different from what you've taught them. I likewise don't send my kids to non-coC VBS's (which coC VBS usually has an adult class as well, so it's not daycare - everyone goes to learn about God, and there are no snacks or silly visors - love it!).

 

You asked about coC'ers belief about whether Catholics are Christians. I'll answer that by explaining our definition of a Christian... In the Bible, we see multiple examples of people becoming Christians, and the common pattern is that they believe, repent of their sins, confess that Jesus is the Son of God, are baptized (fully immersed) for the remission of their sins, and then they live faithfully. I used to be Lutheran, and I had a Lutheran "baptism" as a baby. When I started studying the Bible as an adult, I realized that the "baptism" I had had as a baby was not what was described in the Bible. I had not believed (I was too young!), I was not immersed (as the Greek word means), I was not "buried in Christ". I had water sprinkled on my head as a baby, and when I was in 5th grade I was "confirmed" (not found in the Bible). So no, I do not believe I was a Christian when I was Lutheran because I had not met the criteria for becoming a Christian (as I read in the Bible examples of how it happened). That's why I chose to be baptized (fully immersed) about 11.5 years ago, at which point I believe I was "saved". So yes, I consider myself to have been a Christian for 11.5 years, because I use a different definition than the general public (who usually defines it as someone who believes in Jesus - I have no doubt that Catholics believe in Jesus ;)).

 

Hopefully that helps you understand where we're coming from. :)

[....]

OK, OP...we had 2 negative experiences with kids' activities at churches that are not our denomination. Honestly, the best thing is to just send your kids to VBS at a church that is not doctrinally different from yours.

 

It's sad when that happens. I was angry at the two churches, then felt guilty because I was angry, felt like I was sinning because I was angry and it really ruined the whole activity. Also, my son and husband are very religious-skeptical and I think the two experiences did more harm than good.

 

The first time, my oldest 2 kids were invited to a night of VBS with the neighbor's kid. We had just moved in and my kids were begging to go. I let them go. They came home and told me that the neighbor's kid invited them so she could get some toy prize from the church. Maybe this gives a new spin on Dietrich Bonhoeffer's "Cheap Grace" idea, but this really, really irritated me (on multiple levels). My kids said they felt used by the neighbor's kid and my son felt like the church was a big show. Ah, sigh. What can ya' do...

 

The second time, we went to a different activity at the church our boy scout pack meets at. The activity was a like a carnival (I mean literally), they started in on these huge altar calls and they ended up separating the kids from the parents and taking them away into meeting rooms. It looked like group hysteria, honestly. Well, this scared the *&^% out of my husband and we were trying to find our kids (who were probably very confused) in this gigantic crowd of people.

 

Just as a side note, in our denomination (Lutheran), our children kinda fall under the umbrella of our household. My kids were baptized as babies and you're responsible for them and their religious education until they are in about 7th or 8th grade. Then, they go thru doctrinal instruction thru the Lutheran church (with a pastor). At the end, they're confirmed into the church and can take Holy Communion, be responsible for themselves, etc. And, our church services are so quiet, you could hear a Bendaroo drop on the floor.

 

I'm sorry that you had a negative experience. I've said this before, the American denominations are soooo different from each other, it's incredible when I talk with my friend (who's non-denominational) how different our beliefs are. You would not think we were talking about the same religion. I think we're like the pieces of a broken puzzle.

[Murmer]

So I was the child that went to a VBS be saved/salvation when I was young...and to this day I remember the awful feeling I had when 3 adults stood around telling me to take Jesus into my heart and my saying I had and them saying I was lying probably because I went to a different church that did it differently...It was awful...that said I do think the VBS is a fun time and would give my dd some good social time...but how would I find a church that does not do this type of salvation/sinners prayer (I guess) during VBS, I don't believe in that...there is one VBS at a catholic church would they do this? The MOPS group I go to has a VBS and I have read the church's SOF but don't really understand it and don't know if they would be this kind of salvation pushing church...so what do I have to do to find out if a VBS would be like this?

[all4them]

as well as Bible churches, Church of Christ, Christian Churches (a denomination), or similar type church. That is standard teaching and practice. .

 

 

This is not true of churches of Christ, at least. They believe the children are not born saved...but innocent.

 

The age of accountability could be argued to be anywhere between 9-20...I think it differs with each person. They must completely understand WHAT sin is...that they are a sinner and in need of the blood of Jesus...confess him before men...AND be burried in the water of baptism FOR the remmision of sins....AND remain faithful until death to be truely saved.

 

I thinkt hat a VBS trying to get as many kids to get "saved" as possible is very dangerous. A false sense of security (ie-once save always saved) mentality.

[mommaduck]

from reading a pp: I remember having such a narrow view of judging who is saved and who is not. However, Scripture says that only God can determine that.

[....]

This is not true of churches of Christ, at least. They believe the children are not born saved...but innocent.

 

The age of accountability could be argued to be anywhere between 9-20...I think it differs with each person. They must completely understand WHAT sin is...that they are a sinner and in need of the blood of Jesus...confess him before men...AND be burried in the water of baptism FOR the remmision of sins....AND remain faithful until death to be truely saved.

 

I thinkt hat a VBS trying to get as many kids to get "saved" as possible is very dangerous. A false sense of security (ie-once save always saved) mentality.

 

I'm not trying to be disrespectful at all...

 

But, where did the age of accountability thingie come from?

[....]

from reading a pp: I remember having such a narrow view of judging who is saved and who is not. However, Scripture says that only God can determine that.

 

:iagree: Oh, Boy, do I agree with you! :D

[Soror]

I agree that you wouldn't want to send your Catholic children to a non-Catholic VBS if you don't want them learning something different from what you've taught them. I likewise don't send my kids to non-coC VBS's (which coC VBS usually has an adult class as well, so it's not daycare - everyone goes to learn about God, and there are no snacks or silly visors - love it!).

 

You asked about coC'ers belief about whether Catholics are Christians. I'll answer that by explaining our definition of a Christian... In the Bible, we see multiple examples of people becoming Christians, and the common pattern is that they believe, repent of their sins, confess that Jesus is the Son of God, are baptized (fully immersed) for the remission of their sins, and then they live faithfully. I used to be Lutheran, and I had a Lutheran "baptism" as a baby. When I started studying the Bible as an adult, I realized that the "baptism" I had had as a baby was not what was described in the Bible. I had not believed (I was too young!), I was not immersed (as the Greek word means), I was not "buried in Christ". I had water sprinkled on my head as a baby, and when I was in 5th grade I was "confirmed" (not found in the Bible). So no, I do not believe I was a Christian when I was Lutheran because I had not met the criteria for becoming a Christian (as I read in the Bible examples of how it happened). That's why I chose to be baptized (fully immersed) about 11.5 years ago, at which point I believe I was "saved". So yes, I consider myself to have been a Christian for 11.5 years, because I use a different definition than the general public (who usually defines it as someone who believes in Jesus - I have no doubt that Catholics believe in Jesus ;)).

 

Hopefully that helps you understand where we're coming from. :)

 

Thanks for your explanation, obviously I disagree as I was a convert to the Church and am happy to be home.

[QueenCat]

I would expect it, thus why we don't do Protestant VBS.

 

You wouldn't hear it told like that at all Protestant churches (Methodists are Protestant). We would never use scare tactics with children.

[sunflowerlady]

I have not read any of the replies. My experience has been that most all VBS programs my family has been involved with include presenting the Gospel.

 

I am surprised (although I suppose I shouldn't be) that anyone is taken aback by that.

 

Now I am off to read the replies and see if I am all alone in this.:001_smile:

[A home for their hearts]

The idea that it's a Christian event and Christian events are safe might be what tripped up the OP. There's a cognitive dissonance between what one thinks the faith teaches and just what message is learned.

 

:iagree:

 

I'm really beginning to regret posting this thread. I always think my questions are innocent with no ill intent, but they always turn out to be so much bigger than what I thought. *sigh* I never meant to deceive or mislead anyone. If I have contradicted myself it is only because of my confusion over this whole matter. I didn't stay the entire time. I stayed for a half hour at the beginning and came a half hour early. The idea of me wanting free babysitting I took as an insult. I was not out looking for free childcare! My whole intention of sending them was for them to have fun and learn about God's love. That was our previous experiences with VBS. Like I said before I am ignorant of the various doctrines and had no idea what we were getting into. I thought it would be like our previous experiences or I would have looked into it further. I do want to clear up one comment that has been made, I never heard any teaching about going to hell if you aren't saved.

 

I'm sorry I 'opened this can of worms' And if I have offended anybody I am truely sorry, it was not my intention.

[chiguirre]

Yet, according the post below, you sat there and allowed this? IMO, this church did not overstep "your" parental authority, you consented by sitting there and not removing your children when you were offended by the teaching.

 

I've had to stand up and haul my kids out of one of these salvation sessions. It was very embarassing and I'm sure it was set up to make it as uncomfortable as possible to leave. I was annoyed because it was an outing for the families of kids at ds1's school and the letter specifically said that the "Bible story" (really a hard sale "come be saved" session) was optional. In reality, it was impossible to avoid this session without being very rude to the camp workers, so I let the kids stay until the presenter started in on the sinner's prayer and tried to get kids to stand up and be saved. Then, my personal line was crossed and I had to stand up, collect my kids (and dh who had no clue what was coming), and get out of there. I hate standing out in a crowd and having everyone stare at me, but I hate having my kids be emotionally black-mailed into professing a faith they haven't thoroughly investigated and accepted. We won't be attending any more activities at this campsite now that I know how hard it is to avoid the hard core evangelizing. Oh well, live and learn, but now my radar is even more attuned to avoiding evangelical organizations and making sure my kids are aware of the hard sale tactics they use so that they can avoid being preyed (or prayed) upon.

[Cheryl in NM]

:iagree:

 

I'm really beginning to regret posting this thread. I always think my questions are innocent with no ill intent, but they always turn out to be so much bigger than what I thought. *sigh* I never meant to deceive or mislead anyone. If I have contradicted myself it is only because of my confusion over this whole matter. I didn't stay the entire time. I stayed for a half hour at the beginning and came a half hour early. The idea of me wanting free babysitting I took as an insult. I was not out looking for free childcare! My whole intention of sending them was for them to have fun and learn about God's love. That was our previous experiences with VBS. Like I said before I am ignorant of the various doctrines and had no idea what we were getting into. I thought it would be like our previous experiences or I would have looked into it further. I do want to clear up one comment that has been made, I never heard any teaching about going to hell if you aren't saved.

 

I'm sorry I 'opened this can of worms' And if I have offended anybody I am truely sorry, it was not my intention.

 

I am sorry, I meant to clarify the free childcare remark I made. I did not think from your post that it applied to you. But many people use VBS as free childcare. I should have been more clear.

 

Thank you for clarifying.

 

I've had to stand up and haul my kids out of one of these salvation sessions. It was very embarassing and I'm sure it was set up to make it as uncomfortable as possible to leave. I was annoyed because it was an outing for the families of kids at ds1's school and the letter specifically said that the "Bible story" (really a hard sale "come be saved" session) was optional. In reality, it was impossible to avoid this session without being very rude to the camp workers, so I let the kids stay until the presenter started in on the sinner's prayer and tried to get kids to stand up and be saved. Then, my personal line was crossed and I had to stand up, collect my kids (and dh who had no clue what was coming), and get out of there. I hate standing out in a crowd and having everyone stare at me, but I hate having my kids be emotionally black-mailed into professing a faith they haven't thoroughly investigated and accepted. We won't be attending any more activities at this campsite now that I know how hard it is to avoid the hard core evangelizing. Oh well, live and learn, but now my radar is even more attuned to avoiding evangelical organizations and making sure my kids are aware of the hard sale tactics they use so that they can avoid being preyed (or prayed) upon.

 

You taught your children to stand for what you believe even if it's uncomfortable. I hate when religious organizations and churches lie to people to get them in the church.

 

You do realize that I could have my pick of churches (of a variety of denominations, whether Protestant or not) which do not teach the Bible as I believe the Bible presents its message, right? I have no doubt that the workers in each one of these churches love kids and provide games and fun and snacks along with teaching that I don't agree with and which I could characterize as lies simply because I don't believe it teaches truth. Those "lies" could be nice lies but I would believe them to be lies none the less. So this characterization of churches spreading lies can go more than one way.

 

If you are handing over the religious teaching of your children to someone else, it is your responsibility to find out more than if they have fun games or snacks. It is your responsibility to find out if their teaching matches your own. If you don't, then you have to deal with the dissonance in teaching. If you choose to put your kid's enjoyment over your religious values or beliefs then again, you have to deal with the results. I don't think it's fair to cry "unfair" when the responsibility lies with the parent to find a good fit. Now, if the person did exercise due diligence and was lied to (not the case in this instance) then that would be a whole 'nother ball of wax. Now a better question for the OP to have started a thread on would have been, "Now that I created this situation, how do I fix it?"

 

:iagree: This would have been more representative of the OP's situation.

 

So I was the child that went to a VBS be saved/salvation when I was young...and to this day I remember the awful feeling I had when 3 adults stood around telling me to take Jesus into my heart and my saying I had and them saying I was lying probably because I went to a different church that did it differently...It was awful...that said I do think the VBS is a fun time and would give my dd some good social time...but how would I find a church that does not do this type of salvation/sinners prayer (I guess) during VBS, I don't believe in that...there is one VBS at a catholic church would they do this? The MOPS group I go to has a VBS and I have read the church's SOF but don't really understand it and don't know if they would be this kind of salvation pushing church...so what do I have to do to find out if a VBS would be like this?

 

You need to read the church's statement of faith carefully and call the church to ask questions of anything you don't understand.

[twoforjoy]

You wouldn't hear it told like that at all Protestant churches (Methodists are Protestant). We would never use scare tactics with children.

 

The reason I'd be surprised to hear it is that I attended VBS at Protestant churches as a child--I was raised Catholic--and DS has attended VBS at Protestant churches (ELCA, Episcopal, and recently the Evangelical Covenant Church), and I'd never encountered tactics like that. If you are coming from a more mainline Protestant experience, it would absolutely be a surprise, I think.

 

The Episcopal church where DS does VBS in August is having a Harry Potter-themed program this year. He's super-excited about it.

[DawnM]

I would expect this to be taught at most VBS classes. We have only had our kids do VBS once and it wasn't the best experience. VBS in CA was when I was working so the kids couldn't go. We did VBS the first year we moved to NC and I helped out. It was a bit chaotic IMHO.

 

But as to the gospel being preached, I am sure there was a salvation message. That doesn't suprise me, although my personal believe is that if one calls on the name of Jesus and declares him as the savior, he is saved.....it can be a process or a moment, but either way, it is salvation. I also do not believe that one needs to be baptised. It is a nice outward gesture to show your belief, but not necessary. I also don't think God cares how much water is involved.

 

So, I would sit my kids down, bible in hand, and explain why we beleive the way we do.

 

Dawn

[JudyJudyJudy]

Well, if you really want to know the answer to that question you can just look at the Jehovah's Witnesses. They don't believe in Hell and they are *just as* concerned about salvation. So there you go.

 

And besides, fear of Hell is not the same as loving God and accepting Him. Fear of Hell doesn't lead to salvation. Jesus does.

Actually Jehovah's Witnesses do believe in hell. They just believe that hell is the grave. With JWs there are three options: to go to heaven (only 144,000 will do this), to live on a perfect earth, or to stay in your "grave" forever. The first two options—mainly the middle one—are the incentive for people who are creeped out by being dead forever and just rotting away. Oh, and let's not forget the fear tactics associated with Armageddon that JWs push.

[eewaggie99]

 

I'm really beginning to regret posting this thread. I always think my questions are innocent with no ill intent, but they always turn out to be so much bigger than what I thought. *sigh* I never meant to deceive or mislead anyone. If I have contradicted myself it is only because of my confusion over this whole matter. I didn't stay the entire time. I stayed for a half hour at the beginning and came a half hour early. The idea of me wanting free babysitting I took as an insult. I was not out looking for free childcare! My whole intention of sending them was for them to have fun and learn about God's love. That was our previous experiences with VBS. Like I said before I am ignorant of the various doctrines and had no idea what we were getting into. I thought it would be like our previous experiences or I would have looked into it further. I do want to clear up one comment that has been made, I never heard any teaching about going to hell if you aren't saved.

 

I'm sorry I 'opened this can of worms' And if I have offended anybody I am truely sorry, it was not my intention.

 

I want to thank you for posting about this incident. I've never come across this issue in our church's VBS, but I will be more wary about my children attending VBS at friends' churches.

 

I would never expect a church to preach salvation to a young child at VBS. Like many others have said, VBS should be about the awesomeness of God, God's love for us, and like a parent to a child, how we should want to live up to God's love.

 

Children do not understand the abstract concept of sin so they can only equate it to what they know: they are inherently bad. There is a whole world of nuance in sin that can easily be twisted by the wrong words.

 

I'm sorry you've felt such grief over your post. I found it informative and I'm grateful you shared the incident.

[Soror]

You wouldn't hear it told like that at all Protestant churches (Methodists are Protestant). We would never use scare tactics with children.

 

Well, as I said though that is just the tip of my objections to Protestant VBS. We have fundamental doctrinal differences. I don't trust any of them not to gave information contrary to our faith and belief, whether it is accidentally or on purpose. My children are too young to be really versed in apologetics yet and I think it is confusing.

[JudyJudyJudy]

So I was the child that went to a VBS be saved/salvation when I was young...and to this day I remember the awful feeling I had when 3 adults stood around telling me to take Jesus into my heart and my saying I had and them saying I was lying probably because I went to a different church that did it differently...It was awful...that said I do think the VBS is a fun time and would give my dd some good social time...but how would I find a church that does not do this type of salvation/sinners prayer (I guess) during VBS, I don't believe in that...there is one VBS at a catholic church would they do this? The MOPS group I go to has a VBS and I have read the church's SOF but don't really understand it and don't know if they would be this kind of salvation pushing church...so what do I have to do to find out if a VBS would be like this?

When I read this, chills went down me because it brought back my own memories. I alluded to this in an earlier post.

 

When I was 13, my sister was killed in a car accident. I won't get into all the details of what my mother experienced after that, but she and I stayed with my brother and sister-in-law for a little while after this happened.

 

While I was staying there, a former teacher of mine (this was a small town) invited me to revival at her church. In my area it was "cool" to be Southern Baptist (Mama is JW), so I wanted to go. Mama didn't want me to go, but she didn't fight me on it because she was already dealing with so much.

 

Well, one night after revival I was the target. A group of adult women surrounded me, and one, whose voice I can still hear as clearly as if it had happened yesterday said, "You don't want to be like your sister and die without being saved!"

 

The others joined in, so I was terrified.

 

The next night I made the motions and walked forward during the altar call. I kept expecting to feel something, but I never did; that scared me as well.

 

Even this wasn't good enough for these people, though. They then pushed me to get baptized, and I was scared not to do it. They, along with my sister-in-law, figured out how to get me a change of clothes for the baptism so that my mama wouldn't find out that I had been baptized. They knew Mama. They knew she was mentally ill, and they knew she was a Jehovah's Witness. They also absolutely knew that she wouldn't approve of my being baptized, but since they were helping me to be "saved," they saw what they were doing as okay.

[amey311]

You do realize that I could have my pick of churches (of a variety of denominations, whether Protestant or not) which do not teach the Bible as I believe the Bible presents its message, right? I have no doubt that the workers in each one of these churches love kids and provide games and fun and snacks along with teaching that I don't agree with and which I could characterize as lies simply because I don't believe it teaches truth. Those "lies" could be nice lies but I would believe them to be lies none the less. So this characterization of churches spreading lies can go more than one way.

 

If you are handing over the religious teaching of your children to someone else, it is your responsibility to find out more than if they have fun games or snacks. It is your responsibility to find out if their teaching matches your own. If you don't, then you have to deal with the dissonance in teaching. If you choose to put your kid's enjoyment over your religious values or beliefs then again, you have to deal with the results. I don't think it's fair to cry "unfair" when the responsibility lies with the parent to find a good fit. Now, if the person did exercise due diligence and was lied to (not the case in this instance) then that would be a whole 'nother ball of wax. Now a better question for the OP to have started a thread on would have been, "Now that I created this situation, how do I fix it?"

 

I feel like you're disagreeing with me in your first paragraph, but I think we're on the same page. And I COMPLETELY agree with your very last sentence, and that might be an excellent spin off.

 

My kids aren't going to VBS anywhere :) And not because of this thread.

[FaithManor]

Let me say this as gently as I can. So think Faith in a quiet, patient voice with a loving expression on her face softly saying, "VBS should not be used for entertainment, summer fun, babysitting, and socializing."

 

VBS at any church anywhere on planet earth is normally an attempt to spend a week infusing children with a basic set of doctrinal beliefs that the particular church going to the expense and organization of said event subscribes to. No one should get upset about what their children are being taught at a church they don't attend because they do not believe what that church believes or practices. Reserve VBS for your own church so that confusing messages do not occur.

 

I think because VBS's look so glamorous and glitzy these days that it has become, to many and I am NOT implying that the OP feels this way, like sending your kid to the community pool...good, clean, fun. But, as much fun as may be instilled in the program in order to attract children to it, it is still Vacation Bible School. Which means, during their vacation from regular school we will host a week of intensive Bible school and that in turn means, schooling you in what we believe the Bible does or does not say. Canned programs still have an underlying theology attached to them.

 

Again, OP, I am not saying anything about your particular intent just that I'm seeing an epidemic (not just this board, but in life in general) of parents who don't attend church x sending their children to spend two or three hours each day for a week to church x for VBS and then being whomping mad (including irate phone calls to pastors offices) about the fact that it wasn't just crafts, snacks, and fun and they don't like what their children are learning. Hmmmmmmm.... consumer beware! It is about the Bible, of which there are gazillions of interpretations, and therefore, the content will be about that particular church's interpretation of the Bible. The church shouldn't have to apologize for that and the consumer should not be shocked.

 

We just need to be vigilant. Dh and I don't believe in the "sinner's prayer" as some sort of magic ticket to salvation. So, our children are not allowed to attend VBS at a particular area church. As one mom put it to me, my 14 year old boy who loves Jesus with his whole heart is still going to hell, according to her, because he can't actually believe without saying "The sinner's prayer" with the exact words their pastor teaches them to use. Hmmmmm.....really????? Apparently, it is what they refer to as a false conversion....Hmmmm.... they teach about that too in their VBS. So, since we don't subscribe to that belief, you can bet our kids aren't going there. Actually, come to think of it, due to major problems we have with many churches, our children have only attended Bible School twice during their grammar stages and that was because dh and I actually like the programs that year and volunteered to help with the drama. So, we kept our guys with us as prop masters.

 

Op, have a very sincere talk with your child about what you believe and why you believe it. Reiterate it, live it. She'll be okay, but from here on out consider VBS to be a lot like buying a car, do your research first.

 

Peace and blessings,

Faith

[Jenny in GA]

Just thought I'd jump in here, since so many people are saying, "Of course, what would you expect at Bible School?"

 

I am a Christian whose children went to VBS, and I think I too would be bothered if they were being encouraged to "pray the sinner's prayer." (Which I doubt they were, at my church.)

 

For one thing, in our church we are taught that God enters your heart and begins his work in you at the time of your (infant) baptism.

 

Second, I grew up with the "sinner's prayer" idea, and ... well, I just think the whole idea is icky, especially when applied to kids who just showed up for a snack and craft and to see their friends. It feels so much like "closing the sale" so you can add another name to your list. And/or it feels like a "magical spell" kind of thing: Just repeat this chant and you'll never go to Hell.

 

I truly believe these people have wonderful intentions, but this is not the way I personally see a relationship with Christ working, nor is this what I teach my children.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Let me say this as gently as I can. So think Faith in a quiet, patient voice with a loving expression on her face softly saying, "VBS should not be used for entertainment, summer fun, babysitting, and socializing."

Perhaps this message should be sent to the churches that advertise it as such.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I feel like you're disagreeing with me in your first paragraph, but I think we're on the same page. And I COMPLETELY agree with your very last sentence, and that might be an excellent spin off.

 

My kids aren't going to VBS anywhere :) And not because of this thread.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought that only churches with a particular doctrine on hell were being targeted as being bastions of "lies". And while I don't agree with the hard sell for salvation or with having the sinner's prayer being a requirement or some other things that people have mentioned, I do think that I personally would have a problem with VBS in an extremely "liberal" church just as much as I would in an extremely "conservative" or "fundamental" or whatever other label church.

[amey311]

Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought that only churches with a particular doctrine on hell were being targeted as being bastions of "lies". And while I don't agree with the hard sell for salvation or with having the sinner's prayer being a requirement or some other things that people have mentioned, I do think that I personally would have a problem with VBS in an extremely "liberal" church just as much as I would in an extremely "conservative" or "fundamental" or whatever other label church.

 

No, I think that any church that differs from your own has the potential to tell you/your children something you don't believe.

 

I'm agnostic. It honestly confuses me that parents would send their children to a church school of a different denomination than their own and then act angry or confused that this church told their children things that differed from their own theology.

[Plucky]

No, I think that any church that differs from your own has the potential to tell you/your children something you don't believe.

 

I'm agnostic. It honestly confuses me that parents would send their children to a church school of a different denomination than their own and then act angry or confused that this church told their children things that differed from their own theology.

 

:iagree:

[Sahamamama]

I would absolutely expect that at a vacation *Bible* school.

 

:iagree: