Pertussis epidemic caused by vaccines?

[joannqn]

Publicly, the unvaccinated population is being blamed for the pertussis epidemic, but these studies say otherwise:

 

According to this study, pertussis is reemerging despite vaccination (including countries in which vaccination rates are high) and that the strain of pertussis that is causing most of this is an antigenic divergence between the vaccine strains and circulating strains. The new strains have been isolated by a new allele for the pertussis toxin promoter, ptxP3.

 

This study talks about the causes of pertussis reemerging, naming pathogen adaption as one of those causes. It says that there is strong evidence that ptxP3 strain emerged recently and replaced the previous ptxP1 strains. The problem with this is that the ptxP3 strain has been found to be more virulent in humans than the previous strain. In fact, it has been found that the incidence of hospitalizations, deaths, and lethality have have increased by 1.41, 10.21, and 7.23 times.

 

These ptxP3 strains of pertussis are causing more hospitalizations and death and were not found in the prevaccination era. Their solution is improved vaccines. Will that lead to even more virulent strains? We probably won't know until years after they've improved the vaccines and caused even more virulent diseases.

 

It sounds to me like this is similar to the new superbugs caused by overuse of antibiotics. And it doesn't sound good.

 

What do you think?

[prairiewindmomma]

I think viruses adapt all of the time. Look at the prevnar vaccine--what they vaccinate for no longer matches the disease strains that are popping up in the population.

 

I don't think you can blame one population or the other....but if I were to assess fault, I'd put more on the non-vax peeps (and this is said from someone who selectively vaxes her kids). Look at smallpox--everybody got vaccinated and it's essentially irradicated. On the other hand, enough pertussis and flu and other diseases remained in the community for them to be able to mutate. Part of the problem is that in a global world, people can go pick up lovely diseases and bring them home.

 

In the last few months we've had measles, chickenpox, pertussis & meningitis outbreaks in our community. Our friends broke ribs coughing from pertussis. It's not to be taken lightly. :(

[Tohru]

Wow. Reminds me of the polio outbreak that was caused by the polio vaccine. It seems historically, if viruses are allowed to run their course, then they eventually die out on their own, but with the creation of vaccines, it makes them stronger. However, that's just my personal belief from my own research and I'm not a "professional" or anything.

 

I just get tired of outbreaks being blamed on non-vaxed people, because if a person is vaccinated, then it seems they would be immune and it shouldn't matter to the vaxed population, right? Unless of course the vaccines don't really work...

[mommaduck]

Wow. Reminds me of the polio outbreak that was caused by the polio vaccine. It seems historically, if viruses are allowed to run their course, then they eventually die out on their own, but with the creation of vaccines, it makes them stronger. However, that's just my personal belief from my own research and I'm not a "professional" or anything.

 

I just get tired of outbreaks being blamed on non-vaxed people, because if a person is vaccinated, then it seems they would be immune and it shouldn't matter to the vaxed population, right? Unless of course the vaccines don't really work...

 

:iagree:

[lovinmyboys]

I just get tired of outbreaks being blamed on non-vaxed people, because if a person is vaccinated, then it seems they would be immune and it shouldn't matter to the vaxed population, right? Unless of course the vaccines don't really work...

 

No vaccine is 100% effective and no one claims that they are. Vaccines create herd immunity so hopefully those who do not become immune to the disease from the vaccine don't catch it because the disease is much less prevelant. Not everyone responded to the smallpox vaccine, but enough people did to completely wipe that disease out.

[oraetstudia]

Neither the pertussis vaccine nor having pertussis confers a life-long immunity. Which means that unless you regularly get re-vaccinated (like with Tetanus) you are at risk. That doesn't mean the vaccine doesn't work though. At this point, the new strain of pertussis is out there, I guess. I doubt the current strain is caused by the vaccine, although the epidemic might be, in that most people think if they've been vaccinated or had pertussis that they are now immune.

 

Pertussis is terrible. I'd get re-vaccinated. Actually, I have been since it is often included in Tetanus boosters now.

 

My oldest daughter had pertussis when she was 3 months old. We were incredibly lucky. She didn't even have to be hospitalized, which still impresses our pediatrician all these years later. She got it from a woman at church who felt fine, but had a lingering cough.

[lovinmyboys]

Wow. Reminds me of the polio outbreak that was caused by the polio vaccine. It seems historically, if viruses are allowed to run their course, then they eventually die out on their own, but with the creation of vaccines, it makes them stronger. However, that's just my personal belief from my own research and I'm not a "professional" or anything.

 

Sorry, one more thing. The price is sometimes very high for letting a virus run its course. For smallpox (since we are talking hisorically), 20% of people who caught it died, over 80% of infants with it, and 30% who caught it were blinded. So, it possibly may have run its course and gone away on its own, but I don't think that would be better.

[melissel]

I just want to say that I hope someone is standing by with a fire extinguisher full of kilt images, just in case... :lol: :auto:

[mommaduck]

I just want to say that I hope someone is standing by with a fire extinguisher full of kilt images, just in case... :lol: :auto:

 

Thank you, because it really ticked me off (and hurt) for a person to blame those of us that don't vax (many of us for VERY GOOD REASON!)

Edited July 1, 2011 by mommaduck

[newlifemom]

I just want to say that I hope someone is standing by with a fire extinguisher full of kilt images, just in case... :lol: :auto:

 

Amen. :iagree:

[newlifemom]

I just want to say that I hope someone is standing by with a fire extinguisher full of kilt images, just in case... :lol: :auto:

 

I just wanted to add that now I have posted on this thread, we no longer need to worry about a fight. It will now die an ignoble death. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

 

[in the interest of full-disclosure, I don't know where I stand wrt vx. I have my anecdotal experiences and a little research. Some are, some are not and all are behind.]

[asta]

Publicly, the unvaccinated population is being blamed for the pertussis epidemic, but these studies say otherwise:

 

According to this study, pertussis is reemerging despite vaccination (including countries in which vaccination rates are high) and that the strain of pertussis that is causing most of this is an antigenic divergence between the vaccine strains and circulating strains. The new strains have been isolated by a new allele for the pertussis toxin promoter, ptxP3.

 

This study talks about the causes of pertussis reemerging, naming pathogen adaption as one of those causes. It says that there is strong evidence that ptxP3 strain emerged recently and replaced the previous ptxP1 strains. The problem with this is that the ptxP3 strain has been found to be more virulent in humans than the previous strain. In fact, it has been found that the incidence of hospitalizations, deaths, and lethality have have increased by 1.41, 10.21, and 7.23 times.

 

These ptxP3 strains of pertussis are causing more hospitalizations and death and were not found in the prevaccination era. Their solution is improved vaccines. Will that lead to even more virulent strains? We probably won't know until years after they've improved the vaccines and caused even more virulent diseases.

 

It sounds to me like this is similar to the new superbugs caused by overuse of antibiotics. And it doesn't sound good.

 

What do you think?

 

The first study is from 2008 and the second if from 2009.

 

 

a

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just an FYI, pertussis is bacterial, not viral.

[kchara]

Just an FYI, pertussis is bacterial, not viral.

 

Yeah, I was thinking that, too. I thought I also read somewhere that the vaccine for pertussis isn't a true vaccine. It doesn't give you immunity, it only masks the symptoms so you don't know you're carrying, which, IMHO, is extremely dangerous. What if you come into contact with someone who *can't* be vaccinated for whatever reason? You don't know you've got pertussis, they don't know you've got pertussis, and it spreads. And it might spread to an infant (they don't give it until 6 weeks, I think), which would be VERY dangerous.

 

**NOW... in full disclosure, I can't find where I read that now, so I might be mixed up, but I'm pretty sure that's what I saw in an article... somewhere... Still looking for it.***

[kalanamak]

Just an FYI, pertussis is bacterial, not viral.

 

*And a natural infection does not confer lifetime immunity.*

 

The purpose of the vac is to cut down on the infection rates during the time of childhood when death is more likely to occur. Most adults live through it, I suspect in part related to the larger diameter of their "pipes". And as with many infectious things, the majority of deaths and cases are third world (AFAIR).

[KarenNC]

*And a natural infection does not confer lifetime immunity.*

 

It doesn't even necessarily confer relatively short term immunity for all diseases. I had two naturally occurring chicken pox infections in childhood 5 years apart (well before there was a vaccine), both diagnosed by the pediatrician, whose own son had it three times in childhood.

[kalanamak]

It doesn't even necessarily confer relatively short term immunity for all diseases. I had two naturally occurring chicken pox infections in childhood 5 years apart (well before there was a vaccine), both diagnosed by the pediatrician, whose own son had it three times in childhood.

 

No, but it is the rule in many viruses, while recurring chickenpox, etc are exceptions. With pertussis, the rule is that immunity is not long-lasting, not the exception.

[justamouse]

Wow. Reminds me of the polio outbreak that was caused by the polio vaccine. It seems historically, if viruses are allowed to run their course, then they eventually die out on their own, but with the creation of vaccines, it makes them stronger. However, that's just my personal belief from my own research and I'm not a "professional" or anything.

 

I just get tired of outbreaks being blamed on non-vaxed people, because if a person is vaccinated, then it seems they would be immune and it shouldn't matter to the vaxed population, right? Unless of course the vaccines don't really work...

:iagree:

[kalanamak]

if a person is vaccinated, then it seems they would be immune and it shouldn't matter to the vaxed population, right? Unless of course the vaccines don't really work...

 

Not all vax'd people develop the antibodies. No vax is a guarantee to all who get it. It is a matter of reducing statistical risk.

[Capt_Uhura]

 

I just get tired of outbreaks being blamed on non-vaxed people, because if a person is vaccinated, then it seems they would be immune and it shouldn't matter to the vaxed population, right? Unless of course the vaccines don't really work...

 

Does any outbreak, whether bacterial or viral, kill or sicken all that come in contact? No. There are prostitutes who are seemingly immune to HIV. Why? There is something about their immune response which clears the virus. Given those undisputed facts, it's understandable that no vaccine is 100% effective. Having a vaccine be even only 80% effective is great. For those who do not make a proper response to the vaccine, herd immunity takes care of them assuming enough people are vaccinated. Then there are those who can't be vaccinated....some elderly, those w/ compromised immune systems, etc. Those people depend on herd immunity for protection.

 

It's pretty easy to determine who the affected individuals are...and it's not to place blame but it's part of the epidemiology. There was an outbreak of something in San Diego. It was determined that an un-vax child went abroad, contracted the disease, spread it to others on the airplane, then infected those at his pre-school who were mostly non-vax, and then they spread it to grocery store personnel and on it goes. IF the outbreaks are in previously vaccinated individuals, an entirely different response would need to occur ie testing for differences in sero-types, bad batch of vaccine, etc.

 

Similarly, some medications work in some people and not others. Many medications are tested only on men and have been found to not work as well in women or in African-Americans. Often those populations are a very small percentage of the test group or none at all.

 

 

When I was in graduate school, I along w/ 3 others received the HepB vax. We were tested a few months later for a response. I was the only one that sero-converted w/ 1 series of shots. The other 3 people had not and were therefore not protected. They had to go through another series of shots and then luckily, had a positive immune response. It's just differences in immune systems.

[kalanamak]

 

It's pretty easy to determine who the affected individuals are...and it's not to place blame but it's part of the epidemiology. There was an outbreak of something in San Diego.

 

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/370/ruining-it-for-the-rest-of-us

 

In case anyone missed this interesting show, it interviews both "sides".

[KarenNC]

No, but it is the rule in many viruses, while recurring chickenpox, etc are exceptions. With pertussis, the rule is that immunity is not long-lasting, not the exception.

 

Good to know---I wasn't aware of that.

[Carol in Cal.]

The reason the polio vax caused some polio cases is that it was a live vaccine. Is the pertussis vaccine live? For some reason I had thought it wasn't, but am not certain of that.

[JudyJudyJudy]

The reason the polio vax caused some polio cases is that it was a live vaccine. Is the pertussis vaccine live? For some reason I had thought it wasn't, but am not certain of that.

The live (oral) polio vaccine is generally not given in the US anymore. However, vaccines for measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox are all live.

[Carol in Cal.]

The live (oral) polio vaccine is generally not given in the US anymore. However, vaccines for measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox are all live.

 

Yes, I knew that they had changed away from live oral polio vaccines. What about pertussis? I thought I had heard that that was not a live vaccine anymore--is that true? If not, then it can't directly cause pertussis as the live polio vaccine caused polio.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Yes, I knew that they had changed away from live oral polio vaccines. What about pertussis? I thought I had heard that that was not a live vaccine anymore--is that true? If not, then it can't directly cause pertussis as the live polio vaccine caused polio.

No, the pertussis vaccine is not live. If I understood what the poster who made that statement was saying, she was comparing it more to how antibiotics work. In order to fight antibiotics, if the bacteria aren't killed off completely, they often become stronger.

[FO4UR]

I think there is a whole lot we don't know about vaccines. I think there are too many professionals who think they know all there is to know...or atleast enough to know that they are right...I think time will tell.

 

On a whole, I think vaccines do more good than harm. On a personal level, I seriously question the link between vaccines and certain health problems in my family. (not autism)

 

There are worse things than pertussis...that said, my asthmatic dc is vaxed for it.

[HS Mom in NC]

Our ped respects parental rights on the vaccine issue. He recommends parents vaccinate according to the schedule, but has no problem with parents who choose not to at all or who choose selective or delayed vaccination.

 

When unvaccinated kids come in for what ever reason, he updates their parents on all the "vaccine preventable" diseases going around. Here in the suburbs outside PHX pertussis outbreaks are very common-they just don't get press all the time.

 

According to the ped, he says it's because whooping cough is:

 

1. immediately diagnosed for any unvaccinated /partially vaccinated child even without testing to confirm it by most doctors.

 

2. the most likely vaccine to wear off and most adults do not get boosters, so almost every case he has seen was transmitted from an older adult who had at one time been vaccinated, but hasn't had a booster in years to a child who is too young to be fully vaccinated or is not vaccinated at all.

 

3. most commonly presenting itself with the characteristic long bought of uncontrolled coughing followed by a "whooping sound" and then vomiting. Those cases are the most severe and least common. Most have a hacking cough similar to that heard in cold and flu season.

 

I know someone who had 2 kids with it-they tested to confirm-and one child (a teenage boy) had the classic symptoms for 100 days and the other child (a preschool girl) had a cough that sounded like a cold for 2 weeks.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think there is a whole lot we don't know about vaccines. I think there are too many professionals who think they know all there is to know...or atleast enough to know that they are right...I think time will tell.

 

On a whole, I think vaccines do more good than harm. On a personal level, I seriously question the link between vaccines and certain health problems in my family. (not autism)

 

There are worse things than pertussis...that said, my asthmatic dc is vaxed for it.

 

All true.

 

We really don't know how bad these diseases are any more, or how completely terrified families used to be as they swept through communities.

 

When I read "And the Ladies of the Club" which is largely autobiographical, I found out for the first time how diptheria plays out--the slow death of a child from it was described in considerable detail. And I was appalled. How did I not know this? Because I have never heard of anyone who had it. I imagine that the other things that we vaccinated for 20 years ago are equally nasty. Chicken pox, not so much.

[Jennifer in MI]

I just saw this. I haven't read the entire thread. I can't right now. My vaccinated kids now have pertussis. All but the 13 yo who caught it from ME (fully vaccinated) when he was 2 (also vaccinated). He's fine.

 

It's been awful. Terrible. I'm frustrated and angry that I thought we were protected. . . . And, I NEED sleep!!!!

[Ginevra]

Wow. Reminds me of the polio outbreak that was caused by the polio vaccine. It seems historically, if viruses are allowed to run their course, then they eventually die out on their own, but with the creation of vaccines, it makes them stronger. However, that's just my personal belief from my own research and I'm not a "professional" or anything.

 

I just get tired of outbreaks being blamed on non-vaxed people, because if a person is vaccinated, then it seems they would be immune and it shouldn't matter to the vaxed population, right? Unless of course the vaccines don't really work...

 

Do more research. Viruses do not "die out on their own," and vaccines don't make them stronger. If that were so, there would have been no need for the SmallPox vaccine and it would not have been eradicated, but would have been made stronger.

 

I disagree with your second statement as well. That is like two guys I knew years ago who used to joke, "We don't use cond**ms because everyone else does, so nobody's passing anything around, therefore we don't need to." (Sorry for the coarse example, but it makes the point.) Yes, there are people who have contraindications to vaccinations and they should not be vaxed. But the more typical-health people who refuse vaccinations on the logic you're using, the weaker the community firewall against disease. No vaccine works 100% of the time, so no - people who are vaccinated cannot blithely run around totally sure they couldn't possibly get X,Y, Z. Besides that, those who are in favor of vaccinating aren't necessarily afraid that the non-vaxers will spread the disease to their vaccinated children. There is such a thing as being genuinely concerned for the welfare of someone you think may be misinformed.

 

 

 

Our ped respects parental rights on the vaccine issue. He recommends parents vaccinate according to the schedule, but has no problem with parents who choose not to at all or who choose selective or delayed vaccination.

 

When unvaccinated kids come in for what ever reason, he updates their parents on all the "vaccine preventable" diseases going around. Here in the suburbs outside PHX pertussis outbreaks are very common-they just don't get press all the time.

 

According to the ped, he says it's because whooping cough is:

 

1. immediately diagnosed for any unvaccinated /partially vaccinated child even without testing to confirm it by most doctors.

 

2. the most likely vaccine to wear off and most adults do not get boosters, so almost every case he has seen was transmitted from an older adult who had at one time been vaccinated, but hasn't had a booster in years to a child who is too young to be fully vaccinated or is not vaccinated at all.

 

3. most commonly presenting itself with the characteristic long bought of uncontrolled coughing followed by a "whooping sound" and then vomiting. Those cases are the most severe and least common. Most have a hacking cough similar to that heard in cold and flu season.

 

I know someone who had 2 kids with it-they tested to confirm-and one child (a teenage boy) had the classic symptoms for 100 days and the other child (a preschool girl) had a cough that sounded like a cold for 2 weeks.

 

The bolded is evidence that the unvaccinated child (or not fully vaxed) is the most vulnerable, no matter where the illness originates. Again, if that is what the parent chooses because their child should not be vaxed, then fine - that is the choice they made.

 

All true.

 

We really don't know how bad these diseases are any more, or how completely terrified families used to be as they swept through communities.

 

When I read "And the Ladies of the Club" which is largely autobiographical, I found out for the first time how diptheria plays out--the slow death of a child from it was described in considerable detail. And I was appalled. How did I not know this? Because I have never heard of anyone who had it. I imagine that the other things that we vaccinated for 20 years ago are equally nasty. Chicken pox, not so much.

 

I completely agree. To my grandmother, vaccinating against Polio or Diphtheria or Smallpox was a complete and total no-brainer. She knew and saw people who were maimed or killed by diseases that are now preventable or almost totally eliminated from the world. I think younger people now have the "luxury" of not knowing what it would be like to watch your child suffer terribly or hang onto life by a thread from these diseases. We even have the luxury of not vaccinating, yet not being under significant threat from these diseases because of the millions of people who were vaxed before. (And I am speaking from experience; one of my children is not fully vaxed right at this moment because there were some things I wanted to research when he was younger. I don't have a screaming sense of urgency about getting that up to date, because I know he's not at great risk of getting the illnesses.)

[DianeW88]

No vaccine is 100% effective and no one claims that they are. Vaccines create herd immunity so hopefully those who do not become immune to the disease from the vaccine don't catch it because the disease is much less prevelant. Not everyone responded to the smallpox vaccine, but enough people did to completely wipe that disease out.

 

:iagree:It's the lack of herd immunity these days that's causing a rise in illnesses that had been on the decline since the vaccines were introduced.

 

I also agree that the vaccination rates would rise exponentially if mothers today actually experienced the diseases we are vaccinated for in their own children. Most people have no idea how horrible they truly are. Watching a child suffer through a pertussis attack will bring you to tears. Especially when the child coughs so hard they break ribs. Post polio syndrome is equally devastating. Many older people who escaped the terrible effects of the illness as children are now in pain and wheelchairs because of post polio. That disease never leaves you. It lies in wait in your body and attacks you all over again as your body weakens with age.

 

My dh has to wear hearing aids because of a measles infection as a child. Another friend of his lost his hearing completely. He would have given anything to have had the vaccine when he was a child.

Edited July 2, 2011 by DianeW88

[JudyJudyJudy]

I completely agree. To my grandmother, vaccinating against Polio or Diphtheria or Smallpox was a complete and total no-brainer. She knew and saw people who were maimed or killed by diseases that are now preventable or almost totally eliminated from the world. I think younger people now have the "luxury" of not knowing what it would be like to watch your child suffer terribly or hang onto life by a thread from these diseases. We even have the luxury of not vaccinating, yet not being under significant threat from these diseases because of the millions of people who were vaxed before. (And I am speaking from experience; one of my children is not fully vaxed right at this moment because there were some things I wanted to research when he was younger. I don't have a screaming sense of urgency about getting that up to date, because I know he's not at great risk of getting the illnesses.)

On the flip side of that, for those of us whose children have had a vaccine injury (and for some, death), not further vaccinating our children is a no-brainer.

[Ginevra]

On the flip side of that, for those of us whose children have had a vaccine injury (and for some, death), not further vaccinating our children is a no-brainer.

 

Obviously. That is why I always back my statements about vaccinating with something like this:

 

Yes, there are people who have contraindications to vaccinations and they should not be vaxed.

 

:) if I ever fail to say that in a thread about vaxing, I'll pay you a dollar. :001_smile: What I don't like is fear-mongering (I'm not saying *you* are doing this, just in general) that makes mothers fear vaccinating blindly. That is just as wrong as vaccinating blindly. I know a lot of people who don't vax because they "heard" this or that, but they have no solid knowledge of any kind and have not actually considered whether this jives with their experiences in the world or not.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Obviously. That is why I always back my statements about vaccinating with something like this:

 

 

 

:) if I ever fail to say that in a thread about vaxing, I'll pay you a dollar. :001_smile: What I don't like is fear-mongering (I'm not saying *you* are doing this, just in general) that makes mothers fear vaccinating blindly. That is just as wrong as vaccinating blindly. I know a lot of people who don't vax because they "heard" this or that, but they have no solid knowledge of any kind and have not actually considered whether this jives with their experiences in the world or not.

I agree, but I know far, far more people who vaccinate blindly and are "scared into" doing so than the other way around.

[Aelwydd]

I agree, but I know far, far more people who vaccinate blindly and are "scared into" doing so than the other way around.

 

My experience has been about 50/50 on this.

[Capt_Uhura]

On the flip side of that, for those of us whose children have had a vaccine injury (and for some, death), not further vaccinating our children is a no-brainer.

 

Exactly! That's the point of herd immunity. That's why having others who can vaccinate safely do so b/c it protects your child and all the others who can't be vaccinated.

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

Do more research. Viruses do not "die out on their own," and vaccines don't make them stronger. If that were so, there would have been no need for the SmallPox vaccine and it would not have been eradicated, but would have been made stronger.

 

I disagree with your second statement as well. That is like two guys I knew years ago who used to joke, "We don't use cond**ms because everyone else does, so nobody's passing anything around, therefore we don't need to." (Sorry for the coarse example, but it makes the point.) Yes, there are people who have contraindications to vaccinations and they should not be vaxed. But the more typical-health people who refuse vaccinations on the logic you're using, the weaker the community firewall against disease. No vaccine works 100% of the time, so no - people who are vaccinated cannot blithely run around totally sure they couldn't possibly get X,Y, Z. Besides that, those who are in favor of vaccinating aren't necessarily afraid that the non-vaxers will spread the disease to their vaccinated children. There is such a thing as being genuinely concerned for the welfare of someone you think may be misinformed.

 

 

 

 

 

The bolded is evidence that the unvaccinated child (or not fully vaxed) is the most vulnerable, no matter where the illness originates. Again, if that is what the parent chooses because their child should not be vaxed, then fine - that is the choice they made.

 

 

 

I completely agree. To my grandmother, vaccinating against Polio or Diphtheria or Smallpox was a complete and total no-brainer. She knew and saw people who were maimed or killed by diseases that are now preventable or almost totally eliminated from the world. I think younger people now have the "luxury" of not knowing what it would be like to watch your child suffer terribly or hang onto life by a thread from these diseases. We even have the luxury of not vaccinating, yet not being under significant threat from these diseases because of the millions of people who were vaxed before. (And I am speaking from experience; one of my children is not fully vaxed right at this moment because there were some things I wanted to research when he was younger. I don't have a screaming sense of urgency about getting that up to date, because I know he's not at great risk of getting the illnesses.)

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Crimson Wife]

It may not be politically correct to say, but the recent pertussis outbreak in CA was primarily in Mexican immigrants.

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

It may not be politically correct to say, but the recent pertussis outbreak in CA was primarily in Mexican immigrants.

 

I see nothing politically incorrect about that statement. They are immigrants from Mexico, right? :D

[WishboneDawn]

Wow. Reminds me of the polio outbreak that was caused by the polio vaccine. It seems historically, if viruses are allowed to run their course, then they eventually die out on their own, but with the creation of vaccines, it makes them stronger. However, that's just my personal belief from my own research and I'm not a "professional" or anything.

 

It doesn't make viruses stronger. Viruses simply evolve when a population becomes resistant to the older strain whether that by vaccination or because a virus has "run it's course". The process of that evolution is exactly the same whether regardless of how the population the virus attacked became immune to it.

 

The only real difference is that by vaccinating a population rather then letting it "run it's course" you don't need 10, 20 or 40% of the population to sacrifice itself to gain the initial immunity.

 

I just get tired of outbreaks being blamed on non-vaxed people, because if a person is vaccinated, then it seems they would be immune and it shouldn't matter to the vaxed population, right? Unless of course the vaccines don't really work...

 

Vaccines aren't magic. They're simply a very low risk means of introducing a virus to the body. Low risk never means no risk of course. The very high success rate of vaccines should never be interpretted as 100% effective. But compared to the alternative, they're pretty darn good.

 

As for why immunized people care about the non-vaxxed, I've had two people close to me in the past year who had compromised immune systems and could NOT be vaccinated. If we wanted to visit them we needed out flu vaccines to protect them. Any unvaxxed people around them would have been putting them at a very high risk of serious illness or death. Letting a virus "run it's course" sounds nice until you realize it might runs its course in someone you love.

[WishboneDawn]

On the flip side of that, for those of us whose children have had a vaccine injury (and for some, death), not further vaccinating our children is a no-brainer.

 

And I'd argue, further reason for the rest of us to vaccinate our kids. Some people can't be vaccinated so by vaccinating my kids who have no problems with the vaccines, I'm helping to protect yours.

[FaithManor]

I'd also like to point out that what we are not told by the leaflets handed to us in the doctor's office or community health center is that vaccines do not confer a 100% immunity to begin with even if the series is completed on schedule. MMR at most confers immunity to 80% of the population. Chicken Pox, about 75%...I found this out from a pathologist. So, even with high vaccination rates some portion of the vaxed population will still be at risk. The hope is that even though they don't develop the titers, their body at least, by exposure, has a "heads up" against the virus and will be more likely to fight it efficiently. But, there isn't actually any research to suggest that this is true because they've never bothered to do the follow ups.

 

I think one of the things we are seeing is that during the 60's, 70's, 80's and early 90's even, the medical community was resting on it's laurels...old information. Vaxes actually hadn't been around long enough for them to witness the adaptations that bacteria and viruses are capable of and how eliminating a threat only creates a new threat. So, it didn't occur to researchers to continue research on the virus and the immune response to the virus once the vaccine was created and approved. The assumption was 100% immunity to everyone who took the series, end of problem, go onto the next. Just as with antibiotics, they are finding out just how SMART these little bugs are. Well, maybe not smart...but the will to survive is just as strong as it is for animals. So, survive it will. The assumptions made were actually very dangerous to make, but we can't blame them...they literally had no clue at the time. The DNA research wasn't there; the knowledge of mutations just wasn't sophisticated enough. However, though I excuse the medical community of the 60's and 70's for their ignorance, there is no excuse for the mid-80's and beyond because they did know and the evidence was mounting, but the status quo was very carefully guarded.

 

That's why the assumption that any outbreak can be blamed on any one portion of the population is also DANGEROUS and uncalled for. Without DNA testing those that fall to the illness, one can't say for certain. I will say that I've known three children with pertussis and all three were fully vaxed on schedule children. So, either their bodies did not respond to the vaccine and they did not develop immunity or they contracted a mutated form. I've also known two college students who developed measles and they were fully vaxed too. Given that we know the MMR vax has only an 80% success rate, then 1 in 5 are still vulnerable. That means that at some point, MMR is going to go around and everyone shouldn't get all up in arms about it and pointing fingers.

 

My niece, after completing her chicken pox series, then went on to get chicken pox twice! Yes, you read that right! Twice...one light case, and one very heavy, very miserable case. Her blood was tested right before college and she still does not have chicken pox titers! So, if she's exposed again as an adult, she may get it. My mother, on the otherhand, has never had chicken pox and all three of her children had it plus she helped care for two grandchildren that had it! She has never been vaxed for it. Her own immune system had developed it's own defenses. I've always said someone ought to use her blood, similar to those with immunity to certain snake venoms, to make a chicken pox anti-toxin. So, I think the "whose to blame" game is ridiculous and non-beneficial.

 

We have a rather large Amish and Mennonite population in our area. This represents two demographic groups that do not vax, period. No vaxes. Usually every year some child will get measles. Guess what. It's not an epidemic amongst them. You'd think with no vaxing that many, many of the children would get it. The Amish and Mennonite communities run 1st-8th grade one-room school houses and school runs 8 months of the year from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. (the ending time can vary but their school days are longer than our P.S.). Yet, only a tiny percentage of the children or their parents get the disease. Of course this flies in the face of what researchers would expect. It always makes me wonder why. The best answer I can come up with is that both people groups tend to be very healthy. They eat home grown mostly organic foods, lots and lots of foods with anti-oxidants, very little commerically made faux foods, the children work hard, and they spend a lot of time outdoors. They are what I like to call, STURDY children. So, I wonder if their own natural immune systems, by way of lifestyle, are very strong. Many of the household chemicals common to the average American household are not in their homes...no DOW foaming bath cleaner, no The Works, no commercial laundry detergents or bleach...they make soap, they use goat milk soap on their skin, they clean with vinegar and baking soda, etc. They cook with cast iron pans, no teflon coatings for them.

 

I think it would behoove the research community to look at a bigger picture on immunity than just from the vaxing standpoint. It's entirely possible that future generations will face "bugs" that mutate faster than any vaccine could ever be developed. A stronger natural immune system will be the only defence (other than possibly allopathic treatments for those bugs, but again, drug therapies also take a great deal of time to develop) that humans have. Yet, very, very little research outside of developing vaccines is devoted to strengthening our natural bodily defenses. Instead we have chemical companies constantly promising that every new toxin they toss in to our environment still really doesn't hurt us and for the most part, the governmental agencies bound to protect us just look the other way.

 

As for new vaccines, they are being rushed through the develpment and testing phase and the FDA is turning it's head on that and saying, "I see, no evil, hear no evil, say no evil". UGH! More extensive research, not less, is what we need. This frightens me.

 

Faith

[kiana]

We have a rather large Amish and Mennonite population in our area. This represents two demographic groups that do not vax, period. No vaxes.

 

Are you sure? We used to get our vaccines at the county clinic, and I used to see some Amish kids there as well.

 

I did some quick googling and found a few articles:

http://www.aspergillus.org.uk/secure/articles/pdfs/17133169.pdf

This one found an 84% vaccinated rate among an Illinois community. It seems that it varies by community, with some having pretty high vaccination rates and some having very low.

 

In response to the other part of the article: I wouldn't be at all surprised if they also had a reduced risk factor due to less travelling and interaction with random people. Their schools are significantly smaller, so an infected child will come in contact with fewer children.

 

Furthermore, there have been outbreaks among Amish communities. Perhaps not in your local area, but they've provided some interesting studies reported in your medical journals.

 

(P.S. This isn't meant as an attack, just a note. I agree with the rest of what you said.)

[mommaduck]

FaithManor, I live in Lancaster County. I used to live in an ultra conservative (but not old order) Mennonite community and attend the church (in Illinois). I use to rent from old order Mennonites (in PA). My husband used to work with Amish and Mennonites and we had neighbours of every Anabaptist variety there is (in Illinois and PA).

 

Though they have a higher percentage of people that choose not to vaccinate, they are not against vaccinations as a whole and many of their people do vaccinate.

[FaithManor]

Are you sure? We used to get our vaccines at the county clinic, and I used to see some Amish kids there as well.

 

I did some quick googling and found a few articles:

http://www.aspergillus.org.uk/secure/articles/pdfs/17133169.pdf

This one found an 84% vaccinated rate among an Illinois community. It seems that it varies by community, with some having pretty high vaccination rates and some having very low.

 

In response to the other part of the article: I wouldn't be at all surprised if they also had a reduced risk factor due to less travelling and interaction with random people. Their schools are significantly smaller, so an infected child will come in contact with fewer children.

 

Furthermore, there have been outbreaks among Amish communities. Perhaps not in your local area, but they've provided some interesting studies reported in your medical journals.

 

(P.S. This isn't meant as an attack, just a note. I agree with the rest of what you said.)

 

Yes, I am sure. There are many "sects" of Amish and Mennonite. Much depends on what the Bishop preaches and what the local community assumes. Our local communities believe, for whatever reason, that vaccines are intentional poisoning of children. DD has worked with a doctor who does some pro-bono work within these communities and he knows. However, I am aware that there are lots of differences between sects. Some Amish can use a phone but can't own a phone. Some can not ever use a phone. Some can ride in a car as long as they don't own one, yet another Bishop will condemn that. This community near here is very, very conservative in this regard so the last place you will see them is at the community health clinic. They believe the government is out to get them so government employed nurses and doctors are bad. That's why I'd like to see some research and statistics compiling by the medical community here because these people are unvaxed, measles is contracred, and yet they don't have epidemics.

 

The sad thing, off topic, is that a little Amish girl died last year for lack of a phone. They were playing baseball or at least with a ball and bat - I can't be certain they know how to play an actual game - and she was hit in the head with the ball. She collapsed and began seizing. The kids had to run three miles before finding a neighbor with a phone that was home - workday - and though when the 911 call came through, the ambulance was only 5 minutes away. However, she'd seized for so long she had massive brain damage and died. The young couple who lost their child wanted to have phone installed after that but the bishop told them they'd be shunned. So, they left the Amish community. Very sad, but that gives you a glimpse into how strict this community is...going to the county health center for shot would not be tolerated. Occasionally, very rarely, we see an Amish person in the hospital. I've been told that those families will be shunned and I know of one family that was shunned for seeking dental help at a regular dental practice. However, that same dentist can do pro bono work in the community if he comes to them and as long as he does not work for the government.

 

Faith

[missiemick]

Thanks for the info.

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

 

The sad thing, off topic, is that a little Amish girl died last year for lack of a phone. They were playing baseball or at least with a ball and bat - I can't be certain they know how to play an actual game - and she was hit in the head with the ball. She collapsed and began seizing. The kids had to run three miles before finding a neighbor with a phone that was home - workday - and though when the 911 call came through, the ambulance was only 5 minutes away. However, she'd seized for so long she had massive brain damage and died. The young couple who lost their child wanted to have phone installed after that but the bishop told them they'd be shunned. So, they left the Amish community.

 

Faith

 

That's sad... :(

[Crimson Wife]

I see nothing politically incorrect about that statement. They are immigrants from Mexico, right? :D

 

The "politically correct" scapegoat is the tiny fraction of anti-vaxxers (it's only something like 1.6% of CA kindergartners who have "personal belief" exemptions). However, the overwhelming majority of pertussis deaths have not been among the "crunchy" crowd, but in Mexican immigrant communities.

 

ETA: I'm not anti-vax myself but do follow a selective, delayed approach.

[I.Dup.]

We vaccinate for pertussis, that is one thing I will not mess around with. We selectively and delay vaxxing, though.

 

Dh and I have recently been given the Pertussis booster, and we will all continue to get it every 5 years or so. I have also heard that pertussis is most often spread through adults who have lost their immunity, onto younger children, so we feel it is very important that *we* are vaccinated.

 

I think it is irresponsible for every adult to not go in and get the Pertussis booster. We had a man come over for dinner last year who was coughing, he let us know the next week he had been diagnosed with pertussis (I seriously doubt he had ever gotten the booster). Thankfully none of us got it.