An apology...

[Nan in Mass]

I just wanted to say I am sorry for starting the dumbed-down thread. In retrospect I can see that it was an impossible subject. How could anyone post anything on such a topic without hurt feelings? I don't know what I was thinking.

Anyway, I'm sorry for all the hurt feelings it has caused. I hope it hasn't discouraged anyone too much. Homeschooling is a hard enough job without that on top of everything else.

-nan

[WishboneDawn]

I don't think starting an interesting conversation is something to apologize. It may have lead to things you didn't intend but I don't think that's your responsibility.

:grouphug:

[Brigid in NC]

I don't think starting an interesting conversation is something to apologize. It may have lead to things you didn't intend but I don't think that's your responsibility.

:grouphug:

:iagree:

Thanks for the post but you have nothing to be sorry about. Yesterday's NY Times article on homeschool graduations reminded me that we have all embarked on this journey for so many different reasons. So no wonder we all have so many different opinions. :grouphug:

Edited June 20, 2011 by Brigid in NC

[cathmom]

:grouphug:

 

I hate it when I start a thread and then it goes places where some people get hurt.

[JennW in SoCal]

I just wanted to say I am sorry for starting the dumbed-down thread. In retrospect I can see that it was an impossible subject. How could anyone post anything on such a topic without hurt feelings? I don't know what I was thinking.

Anyway, I'm sorry for all the hurt feelings it has caused. I hope it hasn't discouraged anyone too much. Homeschooling is a hard enough job without that on top of everything else.

-nan

 

You are a kind soul, Nan. It was an interesting thread and you have no need to apologize!

[Guest]

Nan, you have done the boards an enormous service over and over again in starting so many the threads that encourage people to think, explore ideas, exchange personal stories and experiences, explore alternatives, gain some perspective on different ways of homeschooling.

[Niffercoo]

Nan, I have really been enjoying the thread and all of its turns. Specifically, I've been interested in the discussion of the nuances of language, as this is the very thing we champion in our autism therapy (RDI). We need to teach a child so much more than "speaking" - our goal is "communication" which is infinitely more complex.

[Annie Laurie]

I learn a lot from those threads. It's not your fault that they sometimes stray from the original topic, but I would be saddened if there weren't posters who weren't afraid to discuss the reality of rigorous homeschooling so that the rest of us could glean from them.

[Janice in NJ]

Oh, Nan,

 

I hope I didn't contribute too much to your regret! I think you asked a valid question in the hopes of generating a meaningful and encouraging discussion. You know, like you always do! :001_smile:

 

I have a deep respect for this group. A deep respect. And I am grateful to be sharing the journey with such wise, reflective, interesting people.

 

I hope you and all of the other GREAT folks on this board have a peaceful afternoon.

 

Thanks to all!

Janice

[Tammyla]

:grouphug:I appreciate the thread with all its twist and turns; I love being able to see so many different approaches and opinions. Discerning tone is often difficult in this context, but it often compels me to think something through a little deeper, since I can reread, ponder and process at in my own speed.

Edited June 19, 2011 by Tammyla

[Heatherwith4]

I've learned a lot from that thread, and I've been encouraged by it, even though I only have littles right now. Thanks for starting the conversation!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I just wanted to say I am sorry for starting the dumbed-down thread. In retrospect I can see that it was an impossible subject. How could anyone post anything on such a topic without hurt feelings? I don't know what I was thinking.

Anyway, I'm sorry for all the hurt feelings it has caused. I hope it hasn't discouraged anyone too much. Homeschooling is a hard enough job without that on top of everything else.

-nan

 

I had a busy weekend, so I may have missed some heat. But I'll say that I really appreciated the thread. It caused me to take a good look at some of what we have been doing, the level of work that my kids are doing right now, their goals for the future (and their ability to do higher level work).

 

I've come to the conclusion that I really need to jack up the level we're working at. And in large part, I need to be much more directly involved than I was this past year (full of a drawn out move, reverse culture shock and trying to concentrate on my youngest). My kids have been doing a phenomenal job of independent work. But they can't do it all.

 

FWIW, I spent the day working a Q&A booth with some other volunteer admissions liaisons from the Naval Academy at a big museum open house. It was a real eye opener. It provided a much needed reminder that for all of the schools full of dysfunction and parents who don't care what their kids aren't learning, there are also schools with highly involved type A parents who are very motivated to make sure that their kids do every thing necessary to get where they want to go. Those are the kids that my kids will be competing against for admissions slots and scholarships.

 

I predict that I'm going to have a busy decade before the last kid graduates. Which is ok, because they really are worth it.

[QueenCat]

I thought your thread was thought provoking. You made many think, you didn't cause it to deteriorate.

[HoneyFernDotOrg]

Coming from a whole bunch of different perspectives as I am, I found it to be very interesting. It is hard to know who is going to be offended by what, and you can't control it. Sifting through the hurt feelings, there was some good stuff.

[Ester Maria]

You asked a legitimate question, based on legitimate observations about homeschool curricula or educational materials in general, and people could decide for themselves whether they wished to read, participate or ignore the thread overall. Threads evolve, take different turns, then start going back to the starting point, etc., it is all a normal vivid process in a communication, but even if some of that led to people being hurt, it is not because of you having started such a thread in the first place.

 

The questions discussed at the beginning are very important ones, IMO, for each parent to ask themselves, and reading an exchange of opinions about it can help a person sort their ideas.

[chubbyhugs]

Your question made me think. It was a legitimate question. No need to apologize.

[Jane in NC]

I would like to add that not all of us read the board in the same mode. What may be an obvious follow up in threaded mode is not so clear in linear mode.

 

For this reason, I appreciate it when people include a snip of the post on which they are commenting. This helps give me context.

 

Jane

[Kimber]

Nan,

 

You're one of my favorite posters and I loved this post as well. We probably didn't go far enough in the thread. Because of your post, I've actually been having a conversation with myself about what "dumbed down" means. I've not figured it all out, but I am thinking about it.

 

As for parents being sensitive, my post about the hurt toes was my attempt to give voice to the parents I know who aren't so confident. If I only read this board, my opinion of homeschooling parents would be that the mothers are super knowledgeable and confident. I just happen to hang out with some homeschooling moms that aren't as confident.

 

I hope you continue to post as before. You posts are always helpful and deep--deeper than we sometimes want to go, but need to go.

 

Kim

[Miss Marple]

Nan, I found that to be one of the more interesting threads we've had recently. There was a lot of varied input, there was discussion, there was agreement, and there was disagreement. I, personally, never understand how this type of conversation can cause hurt feelings...for me, they cause me to re-think my decisions, re-evaluate my preconceived ideas, and to formulate new ideas and strategies. I come away from these threads knowing so much more about others' lives and ideas than I did before entering the threads. And, IMO, that's always a GOOD thing.

[usetoschool]

I am sorry you feel badly. It is a wonderful thread full of great ideas and conversations and rabbit trails. I am glad you started it. We had several days of interesting spin-offs as well.

 

It is sad that anyone got hurt in the process but there was a ton of good material that will help people sort out what they think about homeschool and their own direction in this little adventure I think. I can't see anything about your original post that was in anyway hurtful.

[Amy in TX]

Nan, I can't imagine you ever hurting anyone's feelings. You are consistently a voice of calm, understanding, and encouragement on these boards. You've helped me when I was in real distress at least once, and I'm sure many others can say the same. Don't beat yourself up over the turns a thread happened to take.

 

:grouphug:

[Niffercoo]

Nan,

 

As for parents being sensitive, my post about the hurt toes was my attempt to give voice to the parents I know who aren't so confident. If I only read this board, my opinion of homeschooling parents would be that the mothers are super knowledgeable and confident. I just happen to hang out with some homeschooling moms that aren't as confident.

 

Kim

 

Nan, I also wanted to add that I hope I wasn't contributing to your feeling badly. I often have to take breaks from the boards because I feel incompetent when I compare our home school to the folks here. But I am getting better at realizing that I cannot compare and I should not compare. We are just embarking on high school for the first time and I'm feeling a lot of pressure. My son has special needs and his high school will look different, but I will do my best to challenge him on his level! I just have to remind myself of these facts and try not to take things personally! That's my issue, not yours!

[Nan in Mass]

No no. It truly, truly wasn't any particular post or set of posts that worried me. I just woke up this morning and suddenly realized that the original question was impossible to answer for anyone without appearing to criticise someone else. I got lots out of the thread, too, and I think several of the rabbit trails led to specific problems being solved for some people. I just can't believe, in retrospect, that I didn't see how impossible the original question was.

 

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

That is a very good point. I use hybrid mode. It never occurred to me that everyone else wasn't seeing which thread followed which. I have noticed that sometimes people don't know which person I am responding to. They must have been using a different mode. Guess it is a good thing I have figured out how to quote something. : )

 

For anyone who needs help -

 

If you type this without the spaces, it results in the text appearing as a quote:

 

[ Q U O T E = person'sname ] text text text [ / Q U O T E ]

 

The bits in capitals need to be in capitals.

 

Even just putting something like:

 

Jane in NC -

blahblahblah

 

so everyone can see who is being addressed would be helpful.

 

-Nan

Edited June 19, 2011 by Nan in Mass

[Nan in Mass]

Everyone - I'm glad some good came of the thread despite its impossibleness. Thank you for telling me. : )

Edited June 19, 2011 by Nan in Mass

[Nan in Mass]

No - it wasn't anyone in particular. I explained under Janice's post. : )

[8filltheheart]

No no. It truly, truly wasn't any particular post or set of posts that worried me. I just woke up this morning and suddenly realized that the original question was impossible to answer for anyone without appearing to criticise someone else. I got lots out of the thread, too, and I think several of the rabbit trails led to specific problems being solved for some people. I just can't believe, in retrospect, that I didn't see how impossible the original question was.

 

-Nan

 

Nan,

 

Is a question not appropriate to ask if the answer leads to someone being offended? I guess the answer to that question was yes if you were Socrates. Perhaps we should consider which side of that issue we want to be one. I personally would prefer to be on Socrates's. ;)

 

If the point of classical education is to question suppositions and analyze rhetoric for substance, then questions are not problem. I'm not sure that the answers are either. People having completely different opinions/experiences/views is reality. Being able to sort through various opinions and form our own...... isn't that one of the main goals in classically education?

 

Your question was a good one. Individual reactions to responses are not your responsibility.

[Nan in Mass]

Well, I think sometimes ideals have practical limitations and that words like "dumb" definately hit those limitations. I don't even like that word. I'd rather use stupid. Dumb means having no voice, not stupid.

[tex-mex]

You are a kind soul, Nan. It was an interesting thread and you have no need to apologize!

:iagree::grouphug::grouphug:

[Mommyfaithe]

I enjoyed the post. It was interesting to read and ponder. It took a weird turn away from the original intent and I hope that had nothing to do with my comments....but no one really has control over that. Your post inspired me to look closely at HOW I teach my kids next fall....and refocus my attention on some things I had been neglecting.

 

Faithe

[FrogMom5]

Nan,

 

I've been reading your posts for many yrs. Back when the boards looked more like long e-mails and people talked about "flipping the board." I never really understood that but.... You have never come across as offensive or hurtful. You ask great questions that cause me to think in ways I might never have before. Sometimes discussions take unpleasant turns as people flesh things out and clarify their communications. That's not your fault. Please continue to ask those thought provoking questions.

Denise

[asta]

Here is something to consider, Nan:

 

I've been writing a website for a new homeschool group. There is already one in the same town that "has the audience", so to speak. It isn't enough for this group's website to have the same content, you know? It has to be, I don't want to say "better", but it has to "step up" from what has been the norm for the community.

 

The challenge in writing this website has been to find things to put on it that *aren't* perceived as lower/beneath/dumbed down/same old same old/the same content the children would get in the local cr@ppy schools... but at the same time are perceived as accessible, doable, not "out of reach" to people who may be hesitant (for whatever reason - their own fears, fears about their child's abilities - whatever), people who may only be exploring HSing as an option... you get my drift?

 

There is a tremendous fear in many people (even those of us who have been doing this a long time - I think - if we were to stop a minute and reflect on our deepest feelings) that we are not "doing enough". And when we look around and see the equivalent of the "Big 3" Car Manufacturers (remember when?) constantly referred to as "well, THIS is what worked and what got Jr into X university"... it's HARD not to second guess. It's HARD to stand one's ground and say HEY! I've read that book and it's a piece of sh!t!

 

It's tiring to constantly feel like the voice in the wilderness saying "look at this little curriculum over here made by a mom with a PhD in ______." Or, "look at this great program made by this self-made guy with 20 years of experience in ________. It works awesome for boys".

 

So, yeah, whatever, maybe people don't like this or that verb (heh - had to have kid diagram that to make sure I had it right) - but that isn't the important thing. The important thing is meeting our children where they are, and helping them reach their goals. The argument can be had all day, but like my dad always said "what do they call the guy who is first in his class at medical school? Doctor. What do they call the guy who is last? Doctor." Just because people end up with the same credentials doesn't mean they have the same brain or the same smarts. The books we choose may influence that somewhat. Or at least show our children that there are choices out there in what kind of resources are available. Perhaps that is our best gift to them.

 

Like always, this made sense in my head.

 

 

a

 

 

(who now needs to finish the website)

[creekland]

That's one thread I just never had time to read as we've been busy lately with college visits and a visit from my mom.

 

However, don't apologize! I know when I do get a chance to read threads I learn a lot from those types even if I don't always agree. It's good to have thoughts challenged IMO. One can either change based on the challenge or become stronger in their reasons for staying the same.

 

To each our own.

 

I don't want this board to be a place where people can't say anything for fear of hurting someone down the line. I want this board to be a place where people can say what they want in sharing thoughts and ideas.

[BridgeTea]

A lot of great discussion came out of that thread (and now this one). I appreciate the hard questions being asked because it causes me to examine what I'm doing in my own home.

 

Thanks to all who dare to think out loud and share with the rest of us.

[Nan in Mass]

Asta -

I think you hit on what bothered me about that thread, why I felt I needed to apologize.

For me, the new curriculums out there are not especially important because I have two years left of indyschooling (grin) and the materials for those have already been chosen - the French history/geography program, TWEM, a French grammar book which took much pondering last year to choose, CC for science and math, and a mishmash of extra books that I just want my son to read and which probably won't count towards anything in particular. It was easy for me to toss of a just-curious question about them because *I* am not having to figure out whether we should be using them. And here is the part that is worrying me: I long ago realized that my particular children are all over the place when it comes to rigour (so am I, for that matter) and that what might be rigous for somebody else isn't for us and what might be middle school level for somebody else we can't manage until 12th grade! We're doing a middle school history/geography program. And I do mean we. *I* struggle with bits of it. I did so agonize over the whole question of rigour over the years, first as I tried to figure out how to educate my publish-school-damaged engineering-minded oldest, then my brightish-but-wired-differently humanities-oriented middle son, and then all over again for my not-wired-differently undamaged engineering-minded youngest. Ug. This is something of a muddle. What I am trying to say is that I now know thoroughly that rigour depends on each particular child/parent combination. I can't use just use what would be the right thing for me if I were the student or Thomas Jefferson if he were the student or anything else simple. I have to work to figure it out. It changes all the time. I *need* the reminder of those rigour threads to make sure that I keep changing to meet our changing circumstances. They can be intimidating and harmful, I think, to the homeschoolers who hasn't yet figured out that rigorous means "meet your chld where he is and go forward from there" and is still struggling with whether they think it is a good idea or not to do some subjects in a check-off-the-box manner in order to do something else especially well.

-Nan

[Diviya]

Asta -

I *need* the reminder of those rigour threads to make sure that I keep changing to meet our changing circumstances. They can be intimidating and harmful, I think, to the homeschoolers who hasn't yet figured out that rigorous means "meet your chld where he is and go forward from there" and is still struggling with whether they think it is a good idea or not to do some subjects in a check-off-the-box manner in order to do something else especially well.

-Nan

 

I am finally going to jump in - forgive me if it is incoherent :)

As a new homeschooler just finishing up our first year, I can say I don't find these threads intimidating or harmful. They are inspiring. They keep me coming back to the boards, and they are the most valuable part of the boards for me. It is about fleshing out the possibilities. Finding out about ways to do things that I hadn't imagined. I can read Ester Maria's threads, for example, and say wow, there is a whole other level of rigor I hadn't imagined. I can read KarenAnne's posts and admire how she can create whole new subject areas with such creativity and passion. And then I can spend some time considering what may work for me and what may not. I can say, yes, I can incorporate some of what Ester Maria does into our school. I can say, there is no way I can do what Karen Anne is doing with literature, and I don't have any desire to. But its good to know about it anyway. Tomorrow I could meet someone for whom that would be a perfect approach, and now I know where to point them.

 

But the point is that both of those views are important. It's good to know what is out there, beyond the published curricula and published books on homeschooling. It's good to know that not all curricula are equal. Sure, different curricula work for different people, but how do you figure out what will work for you? You NEED people's comments on what worked and didn't work for them and why. It's not feasible to get them all in hand, spend a month using each one and then decide! You NEED to know what skills other homeschoolers have found important. This board is all about learning from each other.

 

I think SWB said it best - take what works for you and discard the rest. What works for me won't work for the next person and vice versa. But if it's never said, I may never find it, or I may take way too long to find it.

 

So, keep those questions and threads coming!

 

A final thought. What I do find harmful is when people get defensive and start attacking each other. I had to take a several week break from the boards after the rigor thread for example - it left such a bad taste in my mouth. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. Easy for me to say, but I do wish people would take an opposing viewpoint as just that and nothing more, and not read into the choice of words something that may not be there. Nobody has to "win." It is ok to disagree.

 

Now I'm going to crawl back into my hole. :D

[4wildberrys]

I just wanted to say I am sorry for starting the dumbed-down thread. In retrospect I can see that it was an impossible subject. How could anyone post anything on such a topic without hurt feelings? I don't know what I was thinking.

Anyway, I'm sorry for all the hurt feelings it has caused. I hope it hasn't discouraged anyone too much. Homeschooling is a hard enough job without that on top of everything else.

-nan

 

I don't see any reason why you owe an apology :001_smile: It's an interesting question that brought out good conversation. Did I miss the hurt feelings, because I really didn't notice it :confused: Maybe I didn't read all the replies?

[Colleen in NS]

Asta -

I think you hit on what bothered me about that thread, why I felt I needed to apologize.

 

I *need* the reminder of those rigour threads to make sure that I keep changing to meet our changing circumstances. They can be intimidating and harmful, I think, to the homeschoolers who hasn't yet figured out that rigorous means "meet your chld where he is and go forward from there"...

 

I think it's precisely these types of threads, though, that bring that out to newer homeschoolers. It's what attracted me on the "old boards", and what I look for all the time on these boards. They keep me learning. I'm glad you posted your question.

[Lizzie in Ma]

You are a kind soul, Nan. It was an interesting thread and you have no need to apologize!

 

:iagree::iagree:

[Beth in Mint Hill]

I am finally going to jump in - forgive me if it is incoherent :)

As a new homeschooler just finishing up our first year, I can say I don't find these threads intimidating or harmful. They are inspiring. They keep me coming back to the boards, and they are the most valuable part of the boards for me. It is about fleshing out the possibilities. Finding out about ways to do things that I hadn't imagined. .....

... I do wish people would take an opposing viewpoint as just that and nothing more, and not read into the choice of words something that may not be there. Nobody has to "win." It is ok to disagree. :D

 

Yes, exactly! We must allow for "debate" along with discussion. Good healthy debate stimulates ideas and helps us grow in our thinking. When we fear that our ideas our going to be the slightest bit controversial and don't dare to express them, our conversations just become dull.

 

It reminds me of that scene in Annie Hall where Alvy Singer asks the beautiful couple on the street:

 

"Hey, you look like a very happy couple, um, are you? ..(they say yes).. So, so, how do you account for it?"

Female: "Uh, I'm very shallow and empty and I have no ideas and nothing interesting to say." Male: "I'm exactly the same way."

:tongue_smilie: