AOPS pre-algebra or Discovering Mathematics?

[kokotg]

DS9 (10 next month) is currently flying through Singapore 6A. I think he has 5 exercises plus a review section left. He started it a month and a half ago. We don't really school through the summer, but I do plan to have him do a few minutes of math most days (largely because his younger brother needs to do math, and I don't want to deal with charges of unfairness). So it seems quite likely that he'll finish 6B by early fall, and I'll have to figure out what to do next.

 

I thought I had already done this. I was all set to get Art of Problem Solving's pre-algebra when it comes out. I was very pleased with this plan. But then I started looking at Singapore's Discovering Mathematics, and now I've thought myself into a corner, and I don't know what to do!

 

Here, I guess, is the main issue: DS has a big perfectionist streak and a low tolerance for frustration. We tried supplementing with Life of Fred pre-algebra earlier this year, and it was a big disaster because he could not handle getting any questions wrong on the bridges. And, of course, that's the way it's set up; it's OKAY to get a couple wrong on the first try. Then you try again. He doesn't like that system. It's an ongoing struggle. So...I'm worried that AOPS might drive us both insane. He wants to KNOW what to do and how to do it.

 

And I hear good things about DM, and, hey, Singapore's worked great for us thus far. He enjoys it, he does well with it, I know from his ITBS scores that it's working really well for him in a measurable, objective way. So. If it ain't broke? As far as I can tell, both programs would get him to the same place at about the same time.

 

But. I also think that he NEEDS to break through this fear of getting the answer wrong/fear of trying thing at some point, and that maybe AOPS could help him do that. Math seems like the safest subject for him to work through the issues...I mean, eventually you know you have the right answer with a math problem, right? Umm, or maybe I shouldn't take the subject he feels the most confident in and destroy his confidence. And that's where I get...thinking in circles. Thoughts? WWYD?

[kokotg]

...or, of course, to make things even MORE complicated, I could always throw NEM into the mix of options. Sigh.

[Lovin Learnin]

Our plan is to do both NEM and AoPS Pre-Algebra this year. Of course, I'm the queen of indecision.

[melmichigan]

My biggest concern with SM NEM or DM is that according to the website something like 73-75% is an A and it goes down from there. :confused:

[kokotg]

Our plan is to do both NEM and AoPS Pre-Algebra this year. Of course, I'm the queen of indecision.

 

I've thought of that, too, but it sounds so overwhelming!

 

My biggest concern with SM NEM or DM is that according to the website something like 73-75% is an A and it goes down from there. :confused:

 

ooh! So getting things wrong is a built in part of the program? Yeah, DS would not be happy about that.

[jennynd]

My biggest concern with SM NEM or DM is that according to the website something like 73-75% is an A and it goes down from there. :confused:

I think it is typical in Asian education when u goes to high school level. The idea is to challenge and make student humble. I supposed

 

I will not use AoPS by itself as curriculum. I look through the demo of the Algebra, to be frank, I don't like it. I don't want to state why since there are so many people love the program.

DS is in 5B and we are expecting he will be finishing up this winter/next spring. My plan is to use NEM. I might buy AoPS just to read through and make sure I didn't miss anything. But NEM will be my main program. DS also very young and I was worry about if the text will be too intimidating for him, but I saw somebody on another post said they use whiteboard to teach rather than book, I thought that was excellent idea

[Jen500]

I think it is typical in Asian education when u goes to high school level. The idea is to challenge and make student humble. I supposed

 

I will not use AoPS by itself as curriculum. I look through the demo of the Algebra, to be frank, I don't like it. I don't want to state why since there are so many people love the program.

DS is in 5B and we are expecting he will be finishing up this winter/next spring. My plan is to use NEM. I might buy AoPS just to read through and make sure I didn't miss anything. But NEM will be my main program. DS also very young and I was worry about if the text will be too intimidating for him, but I saw somebody on another post said they use whiteboard to teach rather than book, I thought that was excellent idea

 

I would like to hear what you don't like about AoPs. :bigear:

[Deniseibase]

Kokotg, I'm in the SAME boat - math talented dd zipping through Saxon Algebra 1/2 at top speed, and we went through the first chapter of AoPS Algebra and she got all mad because the answers didn't come instantly. Well, not everything in life is going to come to you the second you look at it dear, I told her. Anything worthwhile takes a lot of effort, look at Thomas Edison, look at the people trying to find a cure for cancer, yadda yadda, it's all in one ear and out the other at this age (she's 11). So what do you do? Push a little to build character? Wait for a little more maturity? It's so hard to know!!

 

What she and I are talking about right now is a bit of a compromise. She wants to continue on with Saxon Alg 1 next year. And I'm fine with that, it's got us this far and it seems to work well for her. It is MUCH too easy for her, she typically does about two lessons in about an hour. But, it makes her feel confident, and she likes it. But, the material is starting to get harder of course, and she did hit a rough spot mid-winter this year when she got really turned around with ratios and cross-multiplying. So we backed off and did some Key to and some math games and jumped back and re-worked about 10 lessons and then it made sense to her after that. So our compromise is, she gets to keep going on Saxon Algebra, but if she hits a snag, we'll switch to AoPS Pre-Algebra for a bit. Since she already knows pre-algebra material, covering it again, even in a more in-depth way, shouldn't be as intimidating, and my hope is that the harder problems will still give her practice with a certain amount of mathematical frustration and actual thinking :)

 

Anyway, that's our current thought. I never know what to do with this math stuff, I was an English major :)

 

BTW, I also want to hear any criticism of AoPS that's going. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, and no program is perfect for everyone out there, so I think it helps everyone if people state their opinions. Just, y'know, nobody start throwing mud, ok? ;)

[kokotg]

I never know what to do with this math stuff, I was an English major :)

 

 

 

Ha--me, too! DH is a math teacher, so I'd love to just turn it all over to him. But he has that pesky teaching job that doesn't leave him a whole lot of time for obsessing over curriculum choices. Maybe he'll have time to do that over the summer :D. It's his fault I wound up with this mathy kid after all!

[EKS]

I would like to hear what you don't like about AoPs. :bigear:

 

Me too.

[catz]

My biggest concern with SM NEM or DM is that according to the website something like 73-75% is an A and it goes down from there. :confused:

 

Wow?! Seriously!? I just spent the year going through NEM 1 with my 4th grader. We are a bit more than half way(we covered the algebra topics) and I'm about to go to review materials for the summer. This explains a bunch to me. NEM is definitely challenging. And this is a kid who had very little problem with Singapore through 6B and their extra materials. I hardly had to teach him.

 

On the upside, yes, we are very humble over here now and have a different take on problem solving. And in general I do think that is a good thing and a transition that should be taken at one point. I'm not sure we will continue though. Although now my son is used to NEM and does not want to switch. It's also very intensive for me (but I am a math major). I'd love to go to AoPS for this kid, but I'm not sure if that will just be too treacherous for us yet.

 

I will not use AoPS by itself as curriculum. I look through the demo of the Algebra, to be frank, I don't like it. I don't want to state why since there are so many people love the program.

 

As someone who is considering AoPS for fall, I'd love to hear any negative comments/reviews.

[naturalmom]

I'd also like to hear views on AoPS. We have two of their books, Intro to Counting, and Number Theory, but I'm not sure what we'll do for Alg. We started NEM, and I remembered something about the low percentage for an A, but having the specifics will encourage ds. He isn't used to getting any wrong at all, so even a few really discourages him.

 

I'm trying to decide between switching to AoPS algebra after NEM1, or move to Foerster's (which I already have). I'd love to hear some thoughts on it to help me determine which would be a better fit for us.

 

(Maybe you could PM all of us who are interested?)

[Jen500]

My biggest concern with SM NEM or DM is that according to the website something like 73-75% is an A and it goes down from there. :confused:

 

71-75% score on WHAT? (I do remember reading something similar) We're using NEM; I recently bought DM and although we haven't used it, at first glance the problems look a lot easier than NEM.

[WishboneDawn]

Don't know anything about AOPS but we're working through DM (thanks for the info on what makes an A! Phew!) and I just want to reasure you that it's a challenging but easy-to-implement program. I'm loving it so far and have decided not to make it hard on myself by not adding anything else to the mix.

[Scuff]

I will not use AoPS by itself as curriculum. I look through the demo of the Algebra, to be frank, I don't like it. I don't want to state why since there are so many people love the program.

 

Hey! Don't you know that we figure out what we want to use by hearing the good reviews -and- the bad? You can't say something like that and then not say why!

[jennynd]

The reason that I don't like AoPS is that I feel the book limited the kids free thinking. Now, all I have is the sample pages listed on the website so do correct me if I am wrong.

At middle school level, I will expect my children start to develop their own thinking process. trying different way to come out answer and learn from their own mistake. From what I see in AoPS is that it have 10-15 problems, the book step you through the problem in great detail and at the end there maybe 5 very similar exercise. Again, I only have the sample pages to go by, but to me, I don't want to give the kids solutions to the questions. Not at that level. I feel giving solution the way AoPS did, 1. I don't know if the kid really understand the process, or they just copy what was done in the example. 2, I think they put the kids in the box rather encourage them thinking outside of box.

I found it even more troublesome is that the book encourage self learning through the book. I don't agree with that. I will do that with NEM or Jacob's but not a book step through problem like AoPS. I think I will still get the book because I do like those in depth word problem, But I will certainly not give the kid the book and let him run with it. Similar to what I am doing now, I will put the question on the paper and ask my kid to come out answer on their own and they have to explain how they come out the answer even if they have the answer correct.

Just my 2 cents.

I supposed I really enjoy teaching my kids math, I can't let them get rid of me this easy :D

[Matryoshka]

71-75% score on WHAT? (I do remember reading something similar) We're using NEM; I recently bought DM and although we haven't used it, at first glance the problems look a lot easier than NEM.

 

Have you looked at the workbook? Those problems are HARD, much more difficult than what's in the text. The Test Bank problems are also quite challenging - my dd was comforted by hearing about that 75% A in Singapore.

[obsidian]

The reason that I don't like AoPS is that I feel the book limited the kids free thinking. Now, all I have is the sample pages listed on the website so do correct me if I am wrong.

At middle school level, I will expect my children start to develop their own thinking process. trying different way to come out answer and learn from their own mistake. From what I see in AoPS is that it have 10-15 problems, the book step you through the problem in great detail and at the end there maybe 5 very similar exercise. Again, I only have the sample pages to go by, but to me, I don't want to give the kids solutions to the questions. Not at that level. I feel giving solution the way AoPS did, 1. I don't know if the kid really understand the process, or they just copy what was done in the example. 2, I think they put the kids in the box rather encourage them thinking outside of box.

 

Honestly, I feel that AoPS encourages out of the box thinking and discovery learning. The problems at the beginning lead you to the discovery of concepts. Yu are supposed to work through the problems before reading the solutions. There is often more than one solution to a problem shown and they encourage using concepts and not just formulas. The exercises may look simple, but mostly they are not and it is fairly impossible to just plug in answers from the lesson. You must think about how the lesson's concepts can be used to solve the problem. A lot of those problems require serious thought. The challenge problems at the end also require a lot of thought. Some of those are very hard.

 

I found it even more troublesome is that the book encourage self learning through the book. I don't agree with that. I will do that with NEM or Jacob's but not a book step through problem like AoPS. I think I will still get the book because I do like those in depth word problem, But I will certainly not give the kid the book and let him run with it. Similar to what I am doing now, I will put the question on the paper and ask my kid to come out answer on their own and they have to explain how they come out the answer even if they have the answer correct.

Just my 2 cents.

I supposed I really enjoy teaching my kids math, I can't let them get rid of me this easy :D

 

:001_huh: I don't think it is troublesome to encourage self education. AoPS gives answers to only some of the problems, the examples if you will. The exercises, review problems, and challenge problems do not have answers in the book. Also, AoPS seems to encourage being able to explain your answer.

 

Thank you for your review. I appreciate you taking the time to write it.:001_smile:

[Jen500]

Have you looked at the workbook? Those problems are HARD, much more difficult than what's in the text. The Test Bank problems are also quite challenging - my dd was comforted by hearing about that 75% A in Singapore.

 

Aha, now I understand. I ended up making up my own test for one of the chapters because I saw the test in the workbook had a topic or two that wasn't covered in the text. Negative exponents and something else I think. It's hard for me to shift my testing philosophy.

[Matryoshka]

Aha, now I understand. I ended up making up my own test for one of the chapters because I saw the test in the workbook had a topic or two that wasn't covered in the text. Negative exponents and something else I think. It's hard for me to shift my testing philosophy.

 

Y'know, I never saw the conceptual leaps people talk about in Singapore Primary... but wow, in DM they present a concept, give some fairly basic practice, take it up a notch, and then in the workbook, it's here, apply it to THIS - ha! Truly brain-stretching.

 

One nice thing about the workbook, though, is that by increasing the difficulty, it also has built-in review. Say, in a area of triangle chapter. in the text it might say the base is 14 and the height is 18, then in the workbook it tells you the base is 5(x - 3.2) - (sqrt 32)/2 and the height is x^2 -5/(-7.12) Guess I'd better remember how to manipulate negative numbers, radicals, exponents. the distributive property and variables! :001_huh:

[Deniseibase]

Jenny, thanks for sharing your opinions about AoPS! I appreciate that you let us talk you into telling us something that you didn't want to tell us :)

[mom4peace]

AoPS wasn't a hit here, so I'd love to here what others on the "I don't care for it" camp have to say. My best guess as to why my then 11 year old didn't like it was due to his lack of willingness to struggle with a challenge. He'd whizzed through Algebra I (Jacob's -- love, love, love it) and really didn't want to spend 30 minutes struggling through a problem. He's developing more patience now (he's 14) but still blanches when he looks at the AoPS I have on the shelf (unused).

 

While I know several really mathy youngsters who love the AoPS books, they don't resonate here.

[mom4peace]

I'd agree that AoPS encourage independent thinking (and despite not using the books, we've had several of them in the house. Precalc and Advanced Algebra are on the shelves right now). They certainly could be taught by a teacher or parent (and are taught online through AoPS). I like teaching math as well, but as the boys grow, I encourage more independent learning. After all, that's how most adult learners do it.

[8filltheheart]

AoPS wasn't a hit here, so I'd love to here what others on the "I don't care for it" camp have to say. My best guess as to why my then 11 year old didn't like it was due to his lack of willingness to struggle with a challenge. He'd whizzed through Algebra I (Jacob's -- love, love, love it) and really didn't want to spend 30 minutes struggling through a problem. He's developing more patience now (he's 14) but still blanches when he looks at the AoPS I have on the shelf (unused).

 

While I know several really mathy youngsters who love the AoPS books, they don't resonate here.

 

I'm pasting a former response here:

 

Here is my experience with Foerster and AoPS. I am copying and pasting a reply on the high school board where a discussion about these two took place and I'm going to follow that with my opinion for an aspiring engineer. FWIW, Kathy in Richmond has her phD in math and used AoPS with her kids when AoPS was still a beta program.

 

I was talking to Kathy in Richmond yesterday about Foerster and I think her assessment is probably the easiest way to explain [the difference between the AoPS and Foerster.]. She said that Foerster gives lots of details and she personally does not learn that way. She likes to be given the big picture and fill in the details on her own. Foerster teaches the details that lead to the big picture. AoPS gives the big picture and leaves the student to fill in the details.

 

My ds that thinks mathematically sees patterns which he likes to then dissect in order to find their relationships. He "fills in the details on his own." Quoting him, "Not only [does AoPS] expect you to develop the little points through guided practice, they expect you to assimilate the information to see the big picture in order to allow you to truly understand the concepts that you are learning."

 

I do NOT think that way with math. I need to be taught the details in order to completely understand the big picture. Once I understand what I am being taught, I can think things over and make the connections in order to "own it." I am watching my dd and I know she does not think like my ds (only my oldest ds (so far) seems to think the same way he does). I do not know for sure how she will end up doing with AoPS, but I am very cognizant of their different thought processes and I have a gut feeling that she is going to want (and perhaps need) the details.

 

AoPS is absolutely fantastic and I am so thrilled for my ds that he finally has something to use that appreciates how he processes math. I just know that not all people think that way.

 

A couple of other thoughts about the 2. AoPS is much heavier in theory. Foerster is much heavier in application. I have spent a LOT of time thinking about this b/c my oldest used Foerster and will be graduating from college with a degree in chemical engineering. My 9th grader used Foerster for alg 1-alg2 (I didn't know about AoPS back then) and he has used AoPS for alg 3, intro to counting and probability, and pre-cal.

 

My 9th grader's understanding of math definitely surpasses anything that my oldest ever approached. He dwells in math theory. He loves it. However, w/in the AoPS books, there is very little in the way of real life application problems (now ds gets those but not from AoPS). Foerster has more real life application problems any other math program I have seen. My oldest had zero problem in his college math/science/engineering courses b/c he knows how to solve problems.

 

Somewhere on the forum there is are several posts where I was in distress about my oldest wondering if he would have had a different course to his life if he had been exposed to the level of math theory that my youngest ds has had b/c their perspectives are very different and I know that it is in large part due to the math they were exposed to.

 

It is impossible for me to convey what I am thinking in a post with a toddler trying to climb on top of the coffee table. They are just very different programs. Foerster will absolutely provide a solid math foundation for engineering and give the practice in application that they need. AoPS will expose them to math theory.

 

I don't know if that clarifies or confuses the issue more!!

[Capt_Uhura]

The reason that I don't like AoPS is that I feel the book limited the kids free thinking. Now, all I have is the sample pages listed on the website so do correct me if I am wrong.

At middle school level, I will expect my children start to develop their own thinking process. trying different way to come out answer and learn from their own mistake.

 

Let me start out by saying that we haven't used AoPS yet. I have read about half the book and worked some of the problems. I came to the opposite conclusion as Jenny. I felt like the strength of AoPS is the self-discovery and free- thinking. I'd love to read others response to this.

 

 

From what I see in AoPS is that it have 10-15 problems, the book step you through the problem in great detail and at the end there maybe 5 very similar exercise. Again, I only have the sample pages to go by, but to me, I don't want to give the kids solutions to the questions. Not at that level. I feel giving solution the way AoPS did, 1. I don't know if the kid really understand the process, or they just copy what was done in the example. 2, I think they put the kids in the box rather encourage them thinking outside of box.

 

 

AoPS presents several problems which the kids try to work through using prior knowledge and making those leaps that mathy kids often make. Granted, the kid has to not look forward for the answer. After DC has worked through the problems, AoPS steps you through the solutions, often multiple solutions, to the problems. Then it gives more problems for DC to solve. AoPS is not spoon feeding the solution, DC discovers the solutions for themselves. Then if DC can't, they read through the solutions and rework the problems on their own. The rest of the problems do not have solutions so you will know if DC just copied what the book has for the in text problems.

 

 

Again, I've only read through AoPS so I'd love to hear from others that have used it.

[Capt_Uhura]

8FilltheHeart - Thank you for reposting that here! :001_smile:

[AuntPol]

We've just started AOPS -will be finishing up Chapter 1 this week so I don't have a ton of experience under my belt yet. However, AOPS is challenging for ME -compared to LOF.

 

I don't see anything wrong w/having a few problems worked out in a book. Isn't that all they all work? Khan Academy solves a problem in the video before you do the practice. In every math class I've ever had, the teacher worked examples. The only difference I see is that you are supposed to try and solve the problem in AOPS first and then look at the solution.

[Matryoshka]

We've just started AOPS -will be finishing up Chapter 1 this week so I don't have a ton of experience under my belt yet. However, AOPS is challenging for ME -compared to LOF.

 

I don't see anything wrong w/having a few problems worked out in a book. Isn't that all they all work? Khan Academy solves a problem in the video before you do the practice. In every math class I've ever had, the teacher worked examples. The only difference I see is that you are supposed to try and solve the problem in AOPS first and then look at the solution.

 

:iagree: Discovering Mathematics also works problems as part of the teaching, just after a short explanation.

[8filltheheart]

AoPS presents several problems which the kids try to work through using prior knowledge and making those leaps that mathy kids often make. Granted, the kid has to not look forward for the answer. After DC has worked through the problems, AoPS steps you through the solutions, often multiple solutions, to the problems. Then it gives more problems for DC to solve. AoPS is not spoon feeding the solution, DC discovers the solutions for themselves. Then if DC can't, they read through the solutions and rework the problems on their own. The rest of the problems do not have solutions so you will know if DC just copied what the book has for the in text problems.

 

THis is correct. The solutions are not presented as part of the initial text. The student is meant to attempt to solve them on their own and then read the solutions. (and my mathy ds would never even think at looking at the solutions b/c he derives pure joy in struggling through problems for hours. If he can't solve one, he'll go out walking and think about it and come back and work on it some more.) That is the beauty of AoPS over LOF, imho. AoPS is superb at leading the student to discover the correct process through problems and not direct teaching.....they are meant to arrive there via induction. Then, if they have not grasped the process, the solutions teach them step by step why.

 

It is still not a program for every child, even ones very good at math. It is excellent for children that can take the whole and fill in the details, not for kids who need details to visualize the whole.

Edited June 3, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[AuntPol]

The student is meant to attempt to solve them on their own and then read the solutions. (and my mathy ds would never even think at looking at the solutions b/c he derives pure joy in struggling through problems for hours. If he can't solve one, he'll go out walking and think about it and come back and work on it some more.) .

 

This is my son!!!!

 

AOPS seems to be working well with him. He also learned well from LOF. Neither of those works for my DD -she can not not look at answers first.

[regentrude]

The reason that I don't like AoPS is that I feel the book limited the kids free thinking. Now, all I have is the sample pages listed on the website so do correct me if I am wrong.

At middle school level, I will expect my children start to develop their own thinking process. trying different way to come out answer and learn from their own mistake. From what I see in AoPS is that it have 10-15 problems, the book step you through the problem in great detail and at the end there maybe 5 very similar exercise.

 

 

This is absolutely not our experience with the Intro to Algebra, the Geometry and the Intermediate Algebra books (have not seen the prealgebra one)

For starters, the kids are presented with problems to solve BEFORE a solution is presented. So they are supposed to engage in thinking without being led to a solution first.

Second, the practice problems are very different. there are enough for mastery, but they do not follow a turn-the-crank pattern - the student needs to think about each problem and see how the concept of the chapter is applied.

 

Again, I only have the sample pages to go by, but to me, I don't want to give the kids solutions to the questions. Not at that level. I feel giving solution the way AoPS did,

 

The kids study the solutions after they have spent time solving the problem. The solution is used to then discuss the new concept - as opposed to presenting the concept and solution strategy first.

I found AoPS to encourage out-of-the-box thinking. Simply following recipes was never enough for success.

[Guest galabar]

Sorry to drag this thread back from the dead, but I just got a copy of AOPS pre-algebra and I thought I'd share my thoughts.

 

My daughter will be 10 in July and we are just finishing up Singapore Math 6A. Skimming through the AOPS pre-algebra book, there doesn't seem to be much material that isn't already covered in SM 6A and 6B. Am I missing something?

[Carpe]

Sorry to drag this thread back from the dead, but I just got a copy of AOPS pre-algebra and I thought I'd share my thoughts.

 

My daughter will be 10 in July and we are just finishing up Singapore Math 6A. Skimming through the AOPS pre-algebra book, there doesn't seem to be much material that isn't already covered in SM 6A and 6B. Am I missing something?

 

No you are not missing something. A student can go directly from SM 6B into AoPS Algebra afaIk.

[kokotg]

Well, since my thread got resurrected, I'll say what wound up happening: we tried AOPS pre-algebra for a few months, and it was, as predicted, a struggle. I finally decided it wasn't worth it for the character building thing I was trying to accomplish, so we switched to Jacob's Algebra, and he's doing great with that. Somewhere in there we got his Explore test results back, and they were really strong, and that reinforced my decision to stop overthinking the math thing....he's really good at math, he's "ahead" in math, he's mostly enjoying the Jacob's, and that's good enough for me at the moment. Now excuse me while I go obsess over my 4th grader's math curriculum for awhile instead.....

[Arcadia]

No you are not missing something. A student can go directly from SM 6B into AoPS Algebra afaIk.

 

Negative exponents and square roots are not covered in SM 6A/B.

 

We do intend to use Discovering Math Common Core with AOPS though since I am used to integrated math.

[Crimson Wife]

Square and cube roots are in DM 1A and presumably in the new Common Core Standards ed. 7A. I have not yet come across negative exponents so DM must do that later on in the sequence than 1A.

[Arcadia]

Square and cube roots are in DM 1A and presumably in the new Common Core Standards ed. 7A. I have not yet come across negative exponents so DM must do that later on in the sequence than 1A.

 

Thanks

 

Negative exponents are in DM 8 Common Core, DM 3 according to the scope and sequence.

[dbmamaz]

yeah, i was going to say, we'd been using NSM and finished books 1 and 2 (that series was just 1 book per level) and did not see negative exponents. we'll probably be switching to DM soon after running through LOF beg algebra, which is going well .. . ds still got stuck on time/distance problems, but most of it he's getting without my help. whereas i work with him a lot on the singapore stuff.