I'm going to bet you didn't know this.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I see a huge difference between a prepared science fair presentation, where presumably you would be able to check your facts and look things up, and knowledge given on the fly. We all have duh moments when we've put our foot in our mouths about something we really do know. We all also have gaps in our education. The problem though is with gaps on basic things that really are part of a culture's cultural literacy.

[creekland]

The OP made me laugh because my boys still confuse Mt. St. Helens and Mt. Everest. We could see Mt. St. Helens from where we used to live in Oregon. They will talk about Mt. Everest and then I realize they are referring to Mt. St. Helens. I just give them "the look" and it dawns on them that they mixed them up again.

 

FWIW, my 10 yo just walked by and I asked him where Mt. Everest was. "What? You don't know where it is? Australia!" :001_huh: He must have seen the look on my face because he quickly paused and said, "Uh...no?"

 

But would you expect this mix up at age 15? I do expect someone in advanced classes to know that the world's tallest, and arguably the most famous, mountain is not in the US by then. Maybe it is my expectations of what ought to be known and when that is off. I'm keeping it where it is though. It's worked well for us.

[creekland]

 

The fact that many students in public schools are cultural, geographical and literary illiterates is a sad fact. Would you have us not mention it... keep it locked away like some dirty little secret? What good would that do?

 

 

I find this to be true in ps and hs students pending the student and their home and/or school situation. Personally, I don't think putting something in the newspaper would do a thing to change it. I'd rather see change come from the kids (or parents) who are more knowledgeable tactfully/nicely encouraging the exchange of information just as it is happening now in my son's group or as was mentioned before with the Frank Lloyd Wright/architecture situation. A fun exchange and love of learning new things is the key - not something forced. If forced worked, these kids should have all known since they had already had world geography 2 years earlier. Forced learning often means "learn for the test, then forget" short term learning.

 

Then there will always be those who don't give a hoot. Such is life. To each our own.

 

Reading this thread has been educational in itself! ;)

[Ginevra]

Does no one on this board have a single gap in her education and base of knowledge?

:iagree: My mother does this "Can't-believe-they-don't-know-that" bashing ALL the time and I'm totally sick to death of it. :glare: I have to keep countering my mother that not all people know everything she knows.

 

FWIW, I've been on the receiving end of this kind of astonishment when people are talking about popular TV shows and celebrities I've never heard of. They can't believe they've stumbled upon the one person in all of America who can't identify Jack Black and has never watched Jersey Shore! :D

Edited May 10, 2011 by Quill
grammar

[angela in ohio]

I hope no one is judging my entire homeschool (or all homeschoolers) on one dumb thing my kids may say one day. :001_huh:

 

My dd can be on another planet. She is scary smart, but like many scary smart people, she says really dumb things sometimes. We were once discussing how big a tree would have to have been to make a wood-slab table we were looking at, and she said, "Wood comes from trees?!?" :lol: AND she's even in advanced classes! ;)

[FloridaLisa]

I hope no one is judging my entire homeschool (or all homeschoolers) on one dumb thing my kids may say one day. :001_huh:

 

My dd can be on another planet. She is scary smart, but like many scary smart people, she says really dumb things sometimes. We were once discussing how big a tree would have to have been to make a wood-slab table we were looking at, and she said, "Wood comes from trees?!?" :lol: AND she's even in advanced classes! ;)

 

 

:iagree: I have seen some scary comments from homeschoolers! Really, they took me back! From homeschoolers that made excellent grades in AP and d/e classes. I won't even tread here, b/c as hard as we work here, and as much as I think we're accomplishing, we have our moments when we wouldn't be the best representative of homeschooling!

 

Just keep doin' our little thing . . . .

Lisa

[Cricket]

But would you expect this mix up at age 15? I do expect someone in advanced classes to know that the world's tallest, and arguably the most famous, mountain is not in the US by then. Maybe it is my expectations of what ought to be known and when that is off. I'm keeping it where it is though. It's worked well for us.

 

No, I agree. By 15, a person should know where Mt. Everest is. My 13 yo finally catches himself when he says the wrong name. Actually, at 15 I would expect a student to remember. It is one thing to have a gap in your knowledge, but a different thing to have learned something basic and forget. At least a person should remember that it isn't in America even if he can't remember exactly which country.

[Cricket]

I hope no one is judging my entire homeschool (or all homeschoolers) on one dumb thing my kids may say one day. :001_huh:

 

My dd can be on another planet. She is scary smart, but like many scary smart people, she says really dumb things sometimes. We were once discussing how big a tree would have to have been to make a wood-slab table we were looking at, and she said, "Wood comes from trees?!?" :lol: AND she's even in advanced classes! ;)

 

I find these things very funny, but, like you say, it is not funny when they say things like that in front of someone who may already be critical of homeschooling! My 7 yo used to announce to everyone that she couldn't read...even when she can. :banghead:

[creekland]

No, I agree. By 15, a person should know where Mt. Everest is. My 13 yo finally catches himself when he says the wrong name. Actually, at 15 I would expect a student to remember. It is one thing to have a gap in your knowledge, but a different thing to have learned something basic and forget. At least a person should remember that it isn't in America even if he can't remember exactly which country.

 

That's my thought as well.

 

In general, I tell kids at school it's not a crime to not know something. None of us are born with knowledge, after all. However, it ought to be a crime to not care to learn things about our planet/subject/whatever. IMO, it's education (and what is done with it) that can really give one opportunities in life. None of us are going to know everything, but there seems to be a "basic" understanding of many things academic that should be a common denominator. Knowing the world's tallest mountain isn't in the US is in that grouping for me. Knowing various Hollywood, modern music or sports stars doesn't make the cut for me, so in those circles I'd be out. I guess we all draw our own lines and it can be interesting to see where some of them are.

 

And in the meantime, I'm glad this grouping is varied and is enjoying learning about things from Tic Tacs to mountains.

[DawnM]

Well, I just asked my kids what the highest mountain in the US was and they all looked at me blankly. Oldest then said, "Mt. Rushmore."

 

Oldest did know where Mt. Everest was though......because we just got back from Disney and rode Expedition Everest several times and read all the material in the museum part before the ride! ;-)

 

I then asked where the Amazon Rain Forest was and my oldest said, "Africa."

 

So, I guess you can make fun of my kids now too.

[creekland]

Well, I just asked my kids what the highest mountain in the US was and they all looked at me blankly. Oldest then said, "Mt. Rushmore."

 

Oldest did know where Mt. Everest was though......because we just got back from Disney and rode Expedition Everest several times and read all the material in the museum part before the ride! ;-)

 

I then asked where the Amazon Rain Forest was and my oldest said, "Africa."

 

So, I guess you can make fun of my kids now too.

 

Ok, if it makes you feel better... :glare: I'll have to assume they won't learn anything about the Amazon in the next two - three years.

[MIch elle]

 

Since American schools are so abysmal in this generation, the majority of students lack a basic education. It is not their fault. They've been provided with a sub-par learning experience but given A's and B's on their report cards. They don't even know how ignorant they are.

 

Since the only alternatives to public schooling are private schools and homeschooling, the children of the wealthy and/or capable are the ones who know things everyone used to know.

 

Sooo.....when I look down on children who have learned nothing in the public schools, I'm really being kind of classist and elitist. Education is for the rich and the strong. I shouldn't mock people for being ignorant, poor, or weak.

 

I am trying to reserve my strong words and opinions for the adults who seem so determined to keep the next generation illiterate, innumerate, and ignorant. This is not the fault of the children.

 

 

 

 

:iagree: :willy_nilly: :svengo:

[pqr]

I find this to be true in ps and hs students pending the student and their home and/or school situation. Personally, I don't think putting something in the newspaper would do a thing to change it. I'd rather see change come from the kids (or parents) who are more knowledgeable tactfully/nicely encouraging the exchange of information just as it is happening now in my son's group or as was mentioned before with the Frank Lloyd Wright/architecture situation. A fun exchange and love of learning new things is the key - not something forced. If forced worked, these kids should have all known since they had already had world geography 2 years earlier. Forced learning often means "learn for the test, then forget" short term learning.

 

 

 

I disagree. Forced learning can stay with a student.

 

I was taught many things by rote and still remember them.

 

States in alphabetical order

Latin verbs

Times tables.....etc.

 

Forced learning, if done properly, can be valuable.

 

As to putting things in the paper, it can increase awareness of the failings in the educational system. A parent might not know that another child was able to advance with the "science project" that was described and may assume that simply because it is a private school the level of education is high. I am all for informing the public when schools fail to perform.

[pqr]

I have begun being more careful about putting down the ignorant. I used to be very guilty of that. I thought that since I'd been an autodidact in spite of public schools, everyone should be.

 

Now I think I understand the big picture a little better.

 

Since American schools are so abysmal in this generation, the majority of students lack a basic education. It is not their fault. They've been provided with a sub-par learning experience but given A's and B's on their report cards. They don't even know how ignorant they are.

 

Since the only alternatives to public schooling are private schools and homeschooling, the children of the wealthy and/or capable are the ones who know things everyone used to know.

 

That took me awhile to grasp, because according to any standard our family is not-quite-middle-class and struggling financially to afford homeschooling. The truth is that I close the financial gap with resourcefulness and capability. I can't expect everyone to be able to do what I do.

 

Sooo.....when I look down on children who have learned nothing in the public schools, I'm really being kind of classist and elitist. Education is for the rich and the strong. I shouldn't mock people for being ignorant, poor, or weak.

 

I am trying to reserve my strong words and opinions for the adults who seem so determined to keep the next generation illiterate, innumerate, and ignorant. This is not the fault of the children.

 

(If this sounds like preaching, it is not meant to. This is a very recent revelation for me. Anyone can search my posts and find me bashing ignorance; I've done it for years. I'm trying to stop it, because I now feel pity toward these students instead of scorn.)

 

 

Well put, but fundamentally wrong.

 

There is nothing stopping a child obtaining an education, yes it is harder if said child is in a poor school and has to swim against the tide but it is possible. It is also harder given the seeming inability of schools to provide an educational environment for the greater majority of students, but the hard working individual can succeed even if it means going to a library.

 

In many poor nations children manage to obtain an education when the odds are stacked against them far more than in the States. I have seen it time and again. I have also seen and been involved in the operation of poor schools in the States (albeit many years ago) and those students who really wanted to learn were afforded every opportunity. It may take strength of character and determination but do not say it cannot be done.

 

Parents have a lot to do with it and I have strong opinions about parents who do not push their children and demand excellence, but to make too many excuses for the "poor and downtrodden" is in itself elitist and classist. Classism, elitism and other isms are sometimes defined by the paternal attitude that others fail and “it is not their fault”....it is because they are poor, because they are X, because they are y.

 

Education is for everybody not just the wealthy and strong to argue otherwise perpetuates the excuses that are made on behalf of those who are frequently too indolent to learn, who do not learn because they are lazy, who rely on the pity of the more educated to give them solace. Such excuses are bunk!

 

As to "they don't even know how ignorant they are".....rubbish. There is a culture, in many areas of this nation, that disdains education. This does not mean that people do not KNOW how ignorant they are, it means that they do not CARE. There is a world of difference.

 

Finallly I know some dirt poor homeschoolers, which again demonstrates that education is not simply for the wealthy.

Edited May 13, 2011 by pqr

[Diana B]

“The question is not — how much does the youth know when he has finished his education — but how much does he care? and about how many orders of things does he care? and, therefore, how full is the life he has before him?” ~ Charlotte Mason

[Jean in Newcastle]

Actually I like these kinds of posts because it reminds me that there are certain basic things that a normal citizen should know.

 

I asked ds13 these basic geography questions (which not something more obscure like the highest mountain in Ghana). He knew them and I was glad that we had spent some time learning basic geography. Will he win the next Geography Bee? No, because we haven't studied to that extent but he does seem to know at least some of what I would consider to be basic geography.

 

Dd9 on the other hand, failed every single question. I don't expect her to know all the answers at this age but I do know that I want to get out some geography stuff geared for her age group.

[Murphy101]

Threads like these make me cringe - because I don't understand the whole "let's make fun of people for what they don't know" stuff that happens here from time to time.

 

Purposeful and or perpetuated ignorance SHOULD be a source of shame. To parents. To schools. To our nation.

 

I agree, and the pride from little Johnny setting everyone straight with his vast knowledge. Ugh.

 

Homeschoolers are the most boastful lot I've ever been around, unfortunately. :toetap05:

 

Indeed. Let us continue to praise mediocrity. They might be ignorant, but at least they are happy in their ignorance. Well not really. But if we do it really well, they're education will be so mediocre they won't know any better.

 

The twit, and that is what he is, who thought that California may end up in the ATLANTIC should be called on it. It is an object lesson about the pitfalls of failure to study and take basic precautions to ensure that one is correct. We all make mistakes, but that is not the case here. What we have here is simple laziness coupled with an appalling lack of knowledge and judgment on the part of the “teachers.”

 

If stories such as these encourage more parents to abandon the sinking ship that is the public school system (and now apparently some private schools) then broadcasting them does nothing but good! I think that the poster should actually send her story to the local papers. People need to speak up not avoid being “boastful” and thereby allow this type of outrage to continue.

 

:iagree: In any idle conversation, various and sundry foolish and or erroneous things might be said by people of any education, absolutely myself included.

 

But to go uncorrected and guided?

To PRAISE and give a PRIZE (3rd place no less!) for mediocrity such as the science fair exhibit example?

Dang straight it is something the school, those teachers, and those parents should be ashamed of. The student, may God help him, is actually being taught to take pride in his ignorance and subpar efforts. It is a disservice to him and society.

[Ginevra]

Purposeful and or perpetuated ignorance SHOULD be a source of shame. To parents. To schools. To our nation.

 

 

 

Indeed. Let us continue to praise mediocrity. They might be ignorant, but at least they are happy in their ignorance. Well not really. But if we do it really well, they're education will be so mediocre they won't know any better.

 

 

 

:iagree: In any idle conversation, various and sundry foolish and or erroneous things might be said by people of any education, absolutely myself included.

 

But to go uncorrected and guided?

To PRAISE and give a PRIZE (3rd place no less!) for mediocrity such as the science fair exhibit example?

Dang straight it is something the school, those teachers, and those parents should be ashamed of. The student, may God help him, is actually being taught to take pride in his ignorance and subpar efforts. It is a disservice to him and society.

 

I agree that one should not win a prize and be praised when they have made a glaring error that requires correction.

 

However, it does bug me when an error is held up for ridicule just because it was a foolish mistake and that's what it was. Nobody knows everything, even out of all the really worthwhile things there are to know. I don't think it's a reflection on ps or hs or private school or anything that a particular child doesn't know this or that fact. I just learned that my 11 year old did not know how to spell his middle name! :svengo: Of course I didn't pat him on the head and say, "That's fine dearie. Who really needs to write their middle name much anyway?" We set out to learn it, post-haste. But I don't think the simple fact that he didn't know it yet means we celebrate mediocrity around here or that he's obviously dumb as a stone. He's not an intuitive speller, has had no occasion to write William and it wasn't on my radar screen.

 

FTR, I don't know precisely where Mt. Everest is (Himilayas, I think?) although I know it's not in the USA. I'm not even Googling it right now so that I can sit here all smug and act like I already knew it. ;)

Edited May 11, 2011 by Quill
fix tag

[creekland]

Actually I like these kinds of posts because it reminds me that there are certain basic things that a normal citizen should know.

 

 

 

This is the way I feel too. I often bring extra questions home for my guys - sometimes even tests, quizzes or worksheets if I feel they contain valuable information, review, or practice. If I notice what I consider a gap, we fix it either on the spot or planned for the future. It's never a punishing thing or shaming or whatnot that people are trying to make this into. My guys love to learn and I love to learn along with them when I find gaps myself. I'm GLAD my kids help others want to learn. If mine have gaps, I'm glad others help fill them in.

 

I also agree from another post that it's not always the fault of the schools. Kids usually have the opportunities to learn the basics if they want to. Many don't want to.

 

However, in the case of the private school with CA/Atlantic, that one I blame on powers that be in the school.

[Hedgehogs4]

Threads like these make me cringe - because I don't understand the whole "let's make fun of people for what they don't know" stuff that happens here from time to time.

 

sometimes it's just nice to come to a safe place and kind of shake your head in amazement at the astounding ignorance among which we live without being judged for once for being "too geeky" or "too strict" or "overly ambitious" with our kids.

 

i think it's fine. it's nice to be validated as to why we don't send our kids to school, as a general rule.

[LidiyaDawn]

Threads like these make me cringe - because I don't understand the whole "let's make fun of people for what they don't know" stuff that happens here from time to time.

 

sometimes it's just nice to come to a safe place and kind of shake your head in amazement at the astounding ignorance among which we live without being judged for once for being "too geeky" or "too strict" or "overly ambitious" with our kids.

 

i think it's fine. it's nice to be validated as to why we don't send our kids to school, as a general rule.

 

Not every homeschooler on this forum believes that we live in a world of "astounding ignorance".

[creekland]

Please STOP & THINK before you post these types of comments...

 

I did stop and think before I posted it and I would post it again (or similar like it) when/if they happen. I do believe there are basics that ought to be known by a certain age among normal students. Period. It's not exclusive to ps or hs though I personally see more in the ps due to my job. But it can provide a little bit of humor, cringing, frustration, and/or comfort pending the outlook at the time.

 

I've had a high school kid in class tell me that kangaroos come from Arizona. I stopped and looked at her. "Arizona?? I suppose there are some there in zoos, but that's not where they are native." She then stammered around a little and finally asked, "well, where do they come from then? Africa?" I told her "Australia." She said, "Oh, I knew it started with an A!" "True," I said, and we continued on with the conversation/class. It was a math class. Kangaroos were in a word problem. Where they came from was off-topic, but I still wasn't going to let it drop incorrectly when she brought it up. I CAN'T do that, personally.

 

I suppose some on here think it would have been better to just drop the subject and move on letting her assume Arizona was correct. I don't. She might have felt embarrassed, but I don't really think so. She and I still get along fine. She still talks in class, etc, and it's still usually off topic.

 

Maybe in a few more pages we'll find out how many homeschoolers don't know where kangaroos come from and I can relate that back to her. :lol: She's a junior now, but would have been a sophomore when this occurred.

 

I don't share all the "issues" I come across. But on occasion I find one I haven't come across before and yes, I find it amusing. Many people can mess up names of mountains, but this kid thinking Mt Everest was both a volcano that exploded and was in the US was a first for me. He was at least correct in that it is the tallest mountain (land to top).

 

Placing the Amazon in Africa seems to be common, but planning to work there and still thinking it is in Africa is a bit less so (albeit, in 9th grade, some details aren't necessarily as well known). Splitting the jungle from the river (each on a different continent) is a bit odd IMO.

 

And, while not my experience, having CA become an island in the Atlantic and having that win 3rd place in a contest (that isn't fiction) trumps anything I've "learned."

[creekland]

sometimes it's just nice to come to a safe place and kind of shake your head in amazement at the astounding ignorance among which we live without being judged for once for being "too geeky" or "too strict" or "overly ambitious" with our kids.

 

i think it's fine. it's nice to be validated as to why we don't send our kids to school, as a general rule.

 

Obviously, I'm in your camp. I never realized how much academic ignorance was out there until I took my job in the ps. It's not just in the ps, of course, but it wasn't in the circle I grew up in. My grandma had to quit school after 4th grade to work, but she taught herself many things through the newspaper and anything else she could find. My other grandparents were farmers, but still knew the basics of many things - maybe not algebra, but certainly geography. I thought this was all normal. I seriously thought all those late night shows with segments on them showing people who didn't know basics were made up. They aren't.

 

You're not too geeky, too strict, or too ambitious for my circle. ;)

[Shellydon]

Well, I just asked my kids what the highest mountain in the US was and they all looked at me blankly. Oldest then said, "Mt. Rushmore."

 

Oldest did know where Mt. Everest was though......because we just got back from Disney and rode Expedition Everest several times and read all the material in the museum part before the ride! ;-)

 

I then asked where the Amazon Rain Forest was and my oldest said, "Africa."

 

So, I guess you can make fun of my kids now too.

 

 

Honestly, if my kids didn't know this stuff at 13, I would be concerned about my ability to teach.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Not every homeschooler on this forum believes that we live in a world of "astounding ignorance".

 

And not every homeschooler on this forum believes that we live in a world without standards.

[5kidsforME]

Honestly, if my kids didn't know this stuff at 13, I would be concerned about my ability to teach.

 

 

 

:glare:

[creekland]

Honestly, if my kids didn't know this stuff at 13, I would be concerned about my ability to teach.

 

I'd only worry about it IF I'd covered that info. Not everyone knows the highest mountain in the US. And not everyone covers geography early. By high school years I'd expect knowledge of Everest and the Amazon and other major features of the planet.

[obsidian]

Honestly, if my kids didn't know this stuff at 13, I would be concerned about my ability to teach.

I'd only worry about it IF I'd covered that info. Not everyone knows the highest mountain in the US. And not everyone covers geography early. By high school years I'd expect knowledge of Everest and the Amazon and other major features of the planet.

 

:iagree:

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

 

Finallly I know some dirt poor homeschoolers, which again demonstrates that education is not simply for the wealthy.

 

You are, in fact, talking to a dirt-poor homeschooler. (According to today's standards in America. I am twice as wealthy as my family was, during my childhood, so I don't consider myself to be truly poor.) That is why I said that education seems to be for the wealthy and/or capable.

 

I began homeschooling four children on an income way below the poverty line, and my sons' abilities speak for themselves. I was not wealthy. I was determined and capable. I could only be determined and capable because I had excellent teachers and mentors, myself, in my family and community.

 

Look, education is for the rare few who have the ability to give a d@mn, whether with their wealth or with their talent. That's my point. Most people just go with the traffic, trusting the experts and punting responsibilities, proving that the real purpose of public education in this country has been realized. (See John Taylor Gatto.)

 

We're reaping the whirlwind, here. It is the fault of whoever dropped the ball. It is not the fault of those who had nothing of value impressed upon them in their youth.

 

Some parents care enough to teach their children (or oversee their schooling) because they have personally built a lifestyle that is pleasing to them on the back of their own education. Some parents care because they have some religious or moral intrinsic motivation to value learning. Whatever the cause of the concern, it makes all the difference in the life of a child and whether or not he will learn what he needs to know.

 

Those who lack a moral worldview or a lifestyle worth perpetuating don't care about the tools needed to sustain standards of morality or lifestyle. If they don't care, their children won't care. If nobody cares, then nobody will bother telling a kid where Mt. Everest is.

 

And all that remains is the few who give a d@mn heaping scorn upon those who were never taught to care. I think that's sad.

 

(And I don't mean creekland, here. She is in a position to help children learn in school and does help, and she has said her son behaves in a respectful and helpful manner, as well.)

 

The mass ignorance is a tragedy, but when will we, the few, stop acting as if we are shocked and surprised? When will we stop shining a light on these poverty-stricken and ignorant children, holding them up for others to despise? What exactly will that fix?

Edited May 11, 2011 by Dulcimeramy

[Pink Fairy]

I agree that one should not win a prize and be praised when they have made a glaring error that requires correction.

 

However, it does bug me when an error is held up for ridicule just because it was a foolish mistake and that's what it was. Nobody knows everything, even out of all the really worthwhile things there are to know. I don't think it's a reflection on ps or hs or private school or anything that a particular child doesn't know this or that fact. I just learned that my 11 year old did not know how to spell his middle name! :svengo: Of course I didn't pat him on the head and say, "That's fine dearie. Who really needs to write their middle name much anyway?" We set out to learn it, post-haste. But I don't think the simple fact that he didn't know it yet means we celebrate mediocrity around here or that he's obviously dumb as a stone. He's not an intuitive speller, has had no occasion to write William and it wasn't on my radar screen.

 

FTR, I don't know precisely where Mt. Everest is (Himilayas, I think?) although I know it's not in the USA. I'm not even Googling it right now so that I can sit here all smug and act like I already knew it. ;)

 

Thank goodness I'm not the only one! While in a room full of ps moms last year I found out that my dd Mary-Kate thought the Kathryn in the full spelling of her name was spelled with a "C." She was 11yo. :001_huh: Can someone please pass me the Homeschool Mom Loser award?

[Ginevra]

Thank goodness I'm not the only one! While in a room full of ps moms last year I found out that my dd Mary-Kate thought the Kathryn in the full spelling of her name was spelled with a "C." She was 11yo. Can someone please pass me the Homeschool Mom Loser award?

:lol: This just makes me really happy that I discovered it in the privacy of our homeschool room!

 

Nah, I don't think you're a HML award-winner. (If you were, I'd have to be one, too.)

[Barb_]

I, after all, have a child who stated that the national currency of Mexico was churros! :lol:

 

:lol: I have a daughter who would agree. We were in Disneyland and all she could think about that week was where her next churro was coming from.

[pqr]

The mass ignorance is a tragedy, but when will we, the few, stop acting as if we are shocked and surprised? When will we stop shining a light on these poverty-stricken and ignorant children, holding them up for others to despise? What exactly will that fix?

 

I think that to many it is a shock. Shining a light on them and therefore on the problem may bring it to the national consciousness and maybe, just maybe something can be done (though the solution is not throwing money at a broken system). Shining a light on it may also bring it to the attention of parents who can then work to get their children out of a failing system, that would be a success.

 

Were one to listen to the NEA and other purveyors of sunlight and cotton candy one might never know of the disaster that our system of education has become. Yes...I want these stories to be commonly known. That offers the potential to fix the issue.

 

Can we lay off the labels such as "poverty-stricken and ignorant children?" Not all of them are poverty stricken and being ignorant can be a choice.

Edited May 11, 2011 by pqr

[Barb_]

A neighborhood girl, aged 13, argued with my daughter over the number of states. She believed we only had 48 because we used to have 49...but Canada isn't a state anymore. People actually move to this area for the school system, so no, it's not only those with no other choices who are getting a crappy education. My 16yo was tutoring a girl from this school in Math this year, but it was difficult. They sent home no books. All their tests were on the computer, so while she knew how many she got wrong when she was finished, she had no idea what she was getting wrong or why. And no way to learn from her mistakes with the tutor her parents were paying good money for.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Barb F. PA in AZ

[Mercy_Me]

I cringed a little when I saw that he was doing an "informal poll". I, for one, would be pissed if a friend of mine did that. I'll leave it at that.

[Dana]

A neighborhood girl, aged 13, argued with my daughter over the number of states. She believed we only had 48 because we used to have 49...but Canada isn't a state anymore. People actually move to this area for the school system, so no, it's not only those with no other choices who are getting a crappy education.

 

I've had college students (cc) question how many states in the US.

I had a calculus student argue with me saying she'd been told there were 52.

 

In my lower-level courses, roughly half of the students didn't know the number of states in the US.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

pqr, you are too literal.

 

When I say they are poverty-stricken, I do not mean that they are financially poor. They may be, but that is not the only meaning of poor.

 

The welfare families of my acquaintance have more and better worldly goods (and better food on food stamps) than I have on my husband's income.

 

It. is. not. about. money.

 

A child in a poor school (defined by me as one offering little substantial learning, not one made up of low-income students) is indeed poverty-stricken, whatever gold or silver his family has or lacks.

 

That's why I'm sorry for any kids who can't spell or add. They are poor. Some ignorant children of my acquaintance live in four-bedroom houses and ride around in fancy cars, but they are poor because they lack learning.

[Murphy101]

The mass ignorance is a tragedy, but when will we, the few, stop acting as if we are shocked and surprised? When will we stop shining a light on these poverty-stricken and ignorant children, holding them up for others to despise? What exactly will that fix?

 

The students are not the ones to despise. If there is anyone to despise it is the teachers, the parents, the community that wants to whine about self esteem issues when the problem is purposely perpetuating ignorance.

 

I don't read these things and think, "gee that kid is an idiot".

I read these things and think, "that kid has been scammed by all those who are supposed to educate him" and I am justifiably angry on his behalf.

 

And I hope I am always shocked by it and I hope I raise my kids with enough sense of justice to be shocked by the lack of justice these things illustrate in older students.

 

I've had college students (cc) question how many states in the US.

I had a calculus student argue with me saying she'd been told there were 52.

 

In my lower-level courses, roughly half of the students didn't know the number of states in the US.

 

:banghead: I will never forget taking an American history course at the local CC and discovering several people did not know Abraham Lincoln was president during the civil war. These were people who had spent 13 years (k-12) in schools here, not immigrants. And several were older than me by several years, so it was not just a younger generation thing either.

 

For crying out loud, even just watching tv should mean some of the most basic of stuff is learned? :confused:

[Slartibartfast]

I think if my child did that I would tell her she was rude. My child has questioned people's fashion choices and I admonished her for that as well.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with friendly discussion but there is a line between that and treating your friends like idiots.

 

I might be more sensitive because I was a bit too obvious in expressing my shock when a friend hadn't heard of the Borgias and didn't believe me that some Popes in history had children. My friend was annoyed and told me so. I do remember the dressing down she gave me.

 

One does have to learn to navigate the world with a little more grace. We don't always get to pick our boss or those that will open doors for us. Being a bit more understanding would probably take someone further than shooting people down.

 

Sorry if I read that as harsher than it might have been. It is quite likely that it was really a friendly discussion rather than a "weakest link for 13 year olds"

Edited May 11, 2011 by Sis

[Jean in Newcastle]

The students are not the ones to despise.

 

I don't think that feeling shock = despising someone. (Not necessarily saying that you think this - I'm using your post to jump off of.) I am shocked at the state of people's education. I am shocked at what people think is normal or acceptable without any correction (not disdain, but teaching to correct the misconceptions). I am shocked that kids don't read enough to fill in a lot of the gaps (which is how I learned most of this kind of stuff).

[creekland]

The students are not the ones to despise. If there is anyone to despise it is the teachers, the parents, the community that wants to whine about self esteem issues when the problem is purposely perpetuating ignorance.

 

I don't read these things and think, "gee that kid is an idiot".

I read these things and think, "that kid has been scammed by all those who are supposed to educate him" and I am justifiably angry on his behalf.

 

And I hope I am always shocked by it and I hope I raise my kids with enough sense of justice to be shocked by the lack of justice these things illustrate in older students.

 

 

 

:banghead: I will never forget taking an American history course at the local CC and discovering several people did not know Abraham Lincoln was president during the civil war. These were people who had spent 13 years (k-12) in schools here, not immigrants. And several were older than me by several years, so it was not just a younger generation thing either.

 

For crying out loud, even just watching tv should mean some of the most basic of stuff is learned? :confused:

 

You and I think a lot alike. For the most part, at our school, it's not the teachers who are the problem (though there are exceptions). Many of the students simply do not care to learn. There's tremendous apathy. That's part of why I'm glad my son is in a group that is challenging themselves - sharing their own strengths and filling in each others gaps in a nice, informal way. I wish there were more of them. The fact that they sometimes do informal polls doesn't bother me in the least! If they can encourage more to learn about more things - go for it!

 

BUT, sometimes it can be the teachers. We had a student teacher this past semester - teaching in a Gov't class for juniors and seniors. When the students were debating if Benjamin Franklin was a president or not they asked her. She didn't know. The "real" teacher was aghast! This potential new teacher is supposedly finished with college and plans to teach in this field.

 

I hope I am always shocked by some of the things I see, and I hope I'm always in a position to encourage a change or that someone else who cares is. Like you, I certainly don't despise the students! I do, however, want to inspire them to care and learn about a variety of things.

[creekland]

Sorry if I read that as harsher than it might have been. It is quite likely that it was really a friendly discussion rather than a "weakest link for 13 year olds"

 

I do think your experience has wrongly classified this one. These kids enjoy quizzing each other and TRY to come up with things like this. Their topics vary considerably and often cover the obscure. This particular time what they thought was "fringe" my guy thought was "basic" and related the story to me. Then, his informal poll was mainly checking to see how many others thought the Amazon part was basic vs fringe. Absolutely all of it was friendly. (But they all know the Amazon is in South America now - a nice plus. Who knows if they'll know that a year from now.)

[Marianne in TX]

“The question is not — how much does the youth know when he has finished his education — but how much does he care? and about how many orders of things does he care? and, therefore, how full is the life he has before him?†~ Charlotte Mason

 

Thank you for posting this. Reminds me of why I love CM :001_smile:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

The students are not the ones to despise. If there is anyone to despise it is the teachers, the parents, the community that wants to whine about self esteem issues when the problem is purposely perpetuating ignorance.

 

I don't read these things and think, "gee that kid is an idiot".

I read these things and think, "that kid has been scammed by all those who are supposed to educate him" and I am justifiably angry on his behalf.

 

And I hope I am always shocked by it and I hope I raise my kids with enough sense of justice to be shocked by the lack of justice these things illustrate in older students.

 

 

 

:banghead: I will never forget taking an American history course at the local CC and discovering several people did not know Abraham Lincoln was president during the civil war. These were people who had spent 13 years (k-12) in schools here, not immigrants. And several were older than me by several years, so it was not just a younger generation thing either.

 

For crying out loud, even just watching tv should mean some of the most basic of stuff is learned? :confused:

Amen:DI think many of our schools both public and private are missing the mark when it comes to a proper education. I also think too many parents and the community at large do not value a good education IMHO.

[LidiyaDawn]

Honestly, if my kids didn't know this stuff at 13, I would be concerned about my ability to teach.

 

Do you have any idea how rude that remark is?

[LidiyaDawn]

Not every homeschooler on this forum believes that we live in a world of "astounding ignorance".

 

And not every homeschooler on this forum believes that we live in a world without standards.

 

Sure there are standards - but they certainly aren't universal.

[Mimm]

 

The mass ignorance is a tragedy, but when will we, the few, stop acting as if we are shocked and surprised? When will we stop shining a light on these poverty-stricken and ignorant children, holding them up for others to despise? What exactly will that fix?

 

I dunno, maybe when we stop being shocked and surprised? And I didn't see anyone in this thread was despising anyone, poverty-stricken or otherwise. The judgment from the people here was for a system that is failing too many of these kids.

 

I am grateful for this thread. Yes, after all the hard work, effort and money spent on homeschooling, I want to feel good about it. If that makes me smug, so be it. But I don't operate under the delusion that I'm doing everything right just because a public schooled kid out there didn't know where Mt. Everest is. Like many people who have read this thread, I also quizzed my children, and found some gaps in knowledge that made me realize we should do more geography next year.

 

For the fun of it:

They did know that Mt. Everest was the tallest mountain in the world. They didn't know what the tallest mountain in the US is. They didn't know where Kangeroos were from. They did know the Amazon river was in South America but didn't know that the Nile was the longest. (I know some people say the Amazon is longer, but oh well.) I did ask them in what part of the country various states were and they got all those right. (I asked if they were in the west, south, northeast, etc.) I asked what countries various cities were in. They knew London and Paris and Tokyo, but not Rio de Jeneiro, Sidney or Beijing. They knew that Egypt is in Africa but not where China is. :)

[Ginevra]

Okay, maybe we can turn this thread around and have some fun with it. Maybe we can start a spin-off of fun things we "quiz" our kids about. :001_smile:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Okay, maybe we can turn this thread around and have some fun with it. Maybe we can start a spin-off of fun things we "quiz" our kids about. :001_smile:

 

Actually, I was going to ask if anyone knew of a good geography program!

[Mimm]

Actually, I was going to ask if anyone knew of a good geography program!

 

I plan to use Mapping the World with Art for my ten year old next year. She'll be in fifth grade and the final is to draw a map of the world free hand. :) I think it'll be a lot of fun.