I'm required by law...

[Heidi]

to disclose my mortgage payment,

my utility bills,

what time my husband leaves for work every morning, how long it takes to get to work, and if he carpools,

if we have a toilet, a sink, a stove, a fridge, running water,

how many bedrooms we have,

our income,

if we went on vacation recently,

our health coverage,

etc.........(just 38 minutes worth of questions like this. that's all)

 

 

I believe this is the long form census I've been given (and its 2011??). These questions make me REALLY uncomfortable. There's no way I'm filling this out.

 

It's one thing to put out a voluntary survey like this if they want this sort of information for the reasons they state. It's quite another to require it by law.

 

I'm sending it back and writing my refusal to answer. I hope I don't get harrassed or fined heavily. :sad:

 

It's just so wrong. Maybe Mr. Robert Groves has never read the part in the constitution where it says I have a right to be secure in my person, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures... (Amendment IV). Maybe I should stick a pocket constitution in the envelope too.

 

Wish me luck! :patriot:

[OLG]

Yes, good luck but I thought they closed the census taking. What's up I wonder?

[kchara]

Yeah, I wouldn't be answering that, either. Good luck!

[tntgoodwin]

I was almost certain you could just disclose the number of people living at your address.

[Daisy]

Are you sure that isn't a scam or something?

 

There is no way we would answer all those questions.

[Mrs Mungo]

Point of interest: 1940 census questions

 

http://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/index_of_questions/1940_housing.html

[jujsky]

Are you sure that isn't a scam or something?

 

There is no way we would answer all those questions.

 

Yeah, that doesn't sound right at all. I'd be concerned about a potential scam too.

[Liz CA]

I/We were just contacted for follow-up on the 2010 census. They are collecting data for employment stats - I was told.

I was asked how many bedrooms the house has, not the amount of the mortgage or commute time.

I don't quite know what the number of bedrooms has to do with employment but at least it was not 38 questions....

[Mrs Mungo]

I was almost certain you could just disclose the number of people living at your address.

 

No. That is an inaccurate belief that many people pass around (including some elected officials).

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/03/census-nonsense/

 

eta:

http://factcheck.org/tag/census/

 

http://factcheck.org/2010/03/just-the-facts-2010-census/

Edited April 24, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[Farrar]

I know that this time around for the census they didn't do a "long form" and instead they are doing a separate survey to gather the sort of data that statisticians may need to help the government make decisions about things. I assume that's what it is (and not some scam, I hope)? I know everyone is legally required to answer the census, but I have no idea about this other thing. I think the data is important for the government to make informed decisions about all kinds of matters... but I also understand not wanting to answer, so good luck.

[tntgoodwin]

No. That is an inaccurate belief that many people pass around (including some elected officials).

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/03/census-nonsense/

 

Ahh, thanks!

[Mrs Mungo]

I know that this time around for the census they didn't do a "long form" and instead they are doing a separate survey to gather the sort of data that statisticians may need to help the government make decisions about things. I assume that's what it is (and not some scam, I hope)? I know everyone is legally required to answer the census, but I have no idea about this other thing. I think the data is important for the government to make informed decisions about all kinds of matters... but I also understand not wanting to answer, so good luck.

 

Yes, you are legally required to answer the American Community Survey, just like the census. You *could* be fined up to $5,000.

 

More info:

https://askacs.census.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/781

 

If you want to know that it *is* part of the ACS and not a scam you can call and ask: http://www.census.gov/npc/contactus.html

 

This isn't something new. Questions like these have been asked for a long time. Only the name and methodology have changed.

 

The ACS is part of the Decennial Census Program. It is a survey that is sent to a small percentage of our population on a rotating basis. These data previously were collected only in census years in conjunction with the decennial census. Since the ACS is conducted every year, rather than once every ten years, it will provide more current data throughout the decade.

The ACS is conducted under the authority of Title 13, United States Code, Sections 141 and 193. The Census Bureau may use the information it collects only for statistical purposes. Title 13 requires the Census Bureau to keep all information about you, and all other respondents, strictly confidential.

 

Part of the reason they ask about commutes and such is because they use that information to help determine where to improve federal highways or invest in public transit systems.

 

You can find out reasons for specific questions here, it's pretty interesting.

 

edited to fix the link

 

Edited April 24, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[Daisy]

Oh never mind. I'm not going to start a debate on this board.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Daisy

[Momofeat]

Is this the American Community Survey? We received one of those, and we're pretty furious over the whole thing. It's outrageous & extremely intrusive. No way can it be Constitutional. It is not a scam. My dh checked into it & even contacted the ACLJ. Citizens are required by law to complete it. However, so far, no one has actually challenged it in court, and after phone calls at ungodly hours, home visits & fines, the government has let it go. I don't think that the government wants it to go to court, because it would most likely be declared unconstitutional. I read recently that there is a movement to repeal the law.

 

I'll try to stop ranting now, especially since you may be referring to a completely different form.:tongue_smilie:

[Mrs Mungo]

Is this the American Community Survey? We received one of those, and we're pretty furious over the whole thing. It's outrageous & extremely intrusive. No way can it be Constitutional. It is not a scam. My dh checked into it & even contacted the ACLJ. Citizens are required by law to complete it. However, so far, no one has actually challenged it in court, and after phone calls at ungodly hours, home visits & fines, the government has let it go. I don't think that the government wants it to go to court, because it would most likely be declared unconstitutional. I read recently that there is a movement to repeal the law.

 

I'll try to stop ranting now, especially since you may be referring to a completely different form.:tongue_smilie:

 

It's been challenged in court *many* times in the courts. It is perfectly constitutional as it is actually built into the constitution.

 

http://2010.census.gov/2010census/why/constitutional.php

 

I understand why some people don't like the questions, but the census (with questions like these) *has* been challenged in court and found to be constitutional. eta: If you read the article, the Supreme Court denied petition as recently as 2002.

 

eta More on this: http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_cens.html

 

information from that site worth highlighting:

Advice to leave the form blank or to fail to fill it in may actually bring more of the government into your life than you want — as noted above, unfiled and incomplete forms will be followed-up upon by actual census workers, either in person or by telephone.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[Mrs Mungo]

By the way, Congress decides what questions are asked. You might break out that pocket constitution and look at Article I, Section 2. "The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct."

 

They have been similar to the current questions for decades. They are the types of questions that help the government make decisions about infrastructure.

 

Robert Groves on the topic

[mcconnellboys]

Why on earth would anyone need to know what time your husband leaves for work, etc.? That sounds like someone is casing your house for when you're home alone....

[specialmama]

Why on earth would anyone need to know what time your husband leaves for work, etc.? That sounds like someone is casing your house for when you're home alone....

 

That's exactly what I thought. I bet men made up the survey. Men who don't have sisters, wives or mothers. They obviously have no idea what it feels like to be a woman alone in a house when her imagination goes nutso.

[Dobela]

My parents received one of those as well. Unbelievable. On the envelope it has written that it is illegal to destroy or not return filled out. I was reading some of the questions and find them very, very intrusive. My mom had been working on it for over 30 minutes and had only reached question #8. It is like filling out a small book,

[Mrs Mungo]

Why on earth would anyone need to know what time your husband leaves for work, etc.? That sounds like someone is casing your house for when you're home alone....

 

http://www.census.gov/acs/www/Downloads/QbyQfact/PJ_work.pdf

 

Basic knowledge about commuting patterns and the characteristics of commuter travel come from responses to these questions. The commuting data are essential for planning highway improvements and developing public transportation services, as well as for designing programs

to ease traffic problems during peak periods, conserve energy, reduce pollution, and estimate and project the demand for alternative-fueled vehicles. These data are required to develop standards for reducing work-related vehicle trips and increasing passenger occupancy during

peak periods of travel. The Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA) plans to use county-level data in computing gross commuting flows to develop place-of-residence earnings estimates from place-of-work estimates by industry. In addition, BEA also plans to use these data for state personalincome estimates for determining federal fund allocations.

The UK, Australia and many other developed nations gather the same information via census and/or surveys.

 

You can see trends in this question for the US from 1960 to 2000 here:

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ctpp/jtw/

 

edited (again) to add:

Here are the questions from the 2000 census, when George W. Bush was president. There are more of them and it does have the question about what time this person leaves for work and how long it takes them to get to work. It actually has 53 questions.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[specialmama]

http://www.census.gov/acs/www/Downloads/QbyQfact/PJ_work.pdf

 

I understand what they're saying, but I do believe there is a better way to go about it. They could have 2 surveys: one for the general census and another separate survey (with just your zip code to identify you) would suffice for the travel info. The fact that there is all this personal data floating around (hardcopies and eventually gathered into "secure" :glare: e-files) is just a huge personal safety risk IMO. But then again, I'm from Toronto. I'm hyper-sensitive to safety risks.

[Mrs Mungo]

I understand what they're saying, but I do believe there is a better way to go about it. They could have 2 surveys: one for the general census and another separate survey (with just your zip code to identify you) would suffice for the travel info. The fact that there is all this personal data floating around (hardcopies and eventually gathered into "secure" :glare: e-files) is just a huge personal safety risk IMO. But then again, I'm from Toronto. I'm hyper-sensitive to safety risks.

 

:confused: Why would being from Toronto make one hyper-sensitive to safety risks? Canada has asked similar questions on their census forms since 1971.

 

Some pretty interesting information:

http://www.census.gov/privacy/data_protection/

[specialmama]

:confused: Why would being from Toronto make one hyper-sensitive to safety risks? Canada has asked similar questions on their census forms since 1971.

 

Gosh. Let's see. Being from TO is similar to being from NYC (so I hear from those who have lived in both places). The random drive-by shootings/stabbings/muggings/cons happen so frequently that the news hardly reports them anymore. I learned very early on to lock the door immediately after someone leaves and I don't ever answer the door unless I'm expecting someone. All that to say that living in a place where there is a lot of random crime makes one a bit leery. As for Canada asking similar questions, I don't doubt it, but we only remember answering a short form which did not include those questions. I'd be jittery about it and would have remembered. If dh answered them, then I'm glad I was in the dark about it. :lol:

[talk2ham.1]

DH and I never received the census at all. We have received no follow up surveys either. How did we get missed?

 

**mission impossible theme playing now** Folks! We're off the grid! Not only do we not qualify as a statistic on the census, but we are officially getting to work daily without Big Brother tracking us down as we go or casing out our house in our absence.

[Twigs]

Mrs Mungo

 

Thank you for patiently supplying so much info and links. You are a wealth of knowledge!

 

Best wishes

[Mrs Mungo]

Mrs Mungo

 

Thank you for patiently supplying so much info and links. You are a wealth of knowledge!

 

Best wishes

 

I am just a proficient googler. ;) But, you are welcome. :001_smile:

[annlaura]

OT, but wow, TO must have changed since I lived there. It was so safe compared to the U.S. cities I've lived in. That's a shame.

 

Gosh. Let's see. Being from TO is similar to being from NYC (so I hear from those who have lived in both places). The random drive-by shootings/stabbings/muggings/cons happen so frequently that the news hardly reports them anymore. I learned very early on to lock the door immediately after someone leaves and I don't ever answer the door unless I'm expecting someone. All that to say that living in a place where there is a lot of random crime makes one a bit leery. As for Canada asking similar questions, I don't doubt it, but we only remember answering a short form which did not include those questions. I'd be jittery about it and would have remembered. If dh answered them, then I'm glad I was in the dark about it. :lol:

[Heidi]

OP here:

 

Yes, it's the American Community Survey.

 

I'll include in my letter that Mrs. Mungo is more than willing to participate; maybe they'll agree to just pass it on to you. :tongue_smilie:

 

Fine ME $5000. I'm not answering it.

[mommyto4]

I live in the suburbs of Toronto, and visit my parents regularily who live right downtown. Toronto is still a safe, clean, wonderful big city!

[Heidi]

Point of interest: 1940 census questions

 

http://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/index_of_questions/1940_housing.html

 

 

FDR was president in 1940. Wow, what a crazy coincidence. :lol:

 

Ok, I'm done.

:gnorsi:

[Mrs Mungo]

OP here:

 

Yes, it's the American Community Survey.

 

I'll include in my letter that Mrs. Mungo is more than willing to participate; maybe they'll agree to just pass it on to you. :tongue_smilie:

 

Fine ME $5000. I'm not answering it.

 

You started out snarky with this:

It's just so wrong. Maybe Mr. Robert Groves has never read the part in the constitution where it says I have a right to be secure in my person, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures... (Amendment IV). Maybe I should stick a pocket constitution in the envelope too.

I pointed out that 1) it is built into the constitution, 2) the original census designed by the founding fathers asked more than name and number of people living in a residence, 3) it has been upheld by the courts as constitutional, 4) you are legally obligated to fill it out.

 

Those are facts, not opinions and certainly not snarky emotional responses.

 

eta:

The census does not violate the Fourth Amendment. Morales v. Daley, 116 F. Supp. 2d 801, 820 (S.D. Tex. 2000). In concluding that there was no basis for holding Census 2000 unconstitutional, the District Court in Morales ruled that the 2000 Census and the 2000 Census questions did not violate the Fourth Amendment or other constitutional provisions as alleged by plaintiffs

If you want to say "I don't like this, I am not filling it out." I can't argue that, it's your feeling on the matter. If you are going to argue "it's unconstitutional," then you need to provide an actual argument for that beyond your emotional response. Again, the 2000 census was under a Republican president and included more questions than the current ACS. Edited April 24, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[shea]

Definition of ENUMERATE

 

transitive verb

1

: to ascertain the number of : count

 

2

: to specify one after another : list

 

— enu·mer·a·tion noun

 

Article 1 Section 2 pasted below for context.

 

Article. I.

 

Section 1.

 

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Section. 2.

 

Clause 1: The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

Clause 2: No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.

Clause 3: Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. (See Note 2) The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.

Clause 4: When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.

Clause 5: The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

 

When reading Article 1 Section 2 in its entirety, the original purpose of the census becomes quite clear. I find the questions for the 1790 census quite

telling.

 

 

1790

 

In 1790, assistant marshals listed the name of each head of household, and asked the following questions:

 

 

• The number of free White males aged:
  
  • under 16 years
    
  • of 16 years and upward
    

   

  [*]Number of free White females

  [*]Number of other free persons

  [*]Number of slaves

   

 

http://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/index_of_questions/1790_1.html

[Punchie]

We received the ACS as well. I took a look at the questions asked, and put it in the trash. When the second one came, in the trash it went as well. Then we moved to a different state. There is no way I am answering those questions as I feel they are incredibly invasive.

[Mrs Mungo]

It is true that the first two censuses only asked about number of people in the household and slaves owned. However, to extrapolate that to say that they only intent of the founding fathers was to only count heads forever, that's wrong. James Madison was president when the census was first used for economic purposes.

 

http://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/index_of_questions/1810_1.html

[Barry Goldwater]

FDR was president in 1940. Wow, what a crazy coincidence. :lol:

 

Ok, I'm done.

:gnorsi:

 

 

If they can't prove you received the survey (e.g. certified letter signature), I wouldn't worry about being fined if you don't respond. :)

[lionfamily1999]

It is true that the first two censuses only asked about number of people in the household and slaves owned. However, to extrapolate that to say that they only intent of the founding fathers was to only count heads forever, that's wrong. James Madison was president when the census was first used for economic purposes.

 

http://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/index_of_questions/1810_1.html

That and the fact that the responsibilities of the Federal Government have grown by leaps and bounds, requiring more from us for them to do their jobs.

[Mrs Mungo]

If they can't prove you received the survey (e.g. certified letter signature), I wouldn't worry about being fined if you don't respond. :)

 

Except they will call and/or send someone out to make sure you received the survey and/or ask the questions directly.

 

That and the fact that the responsibilities of the Federal Government have grown by leaps and bounds, requiring more from us for them to do their jobs.

 

True. Personally, I LOVE the federal highway system.

[lionfamily1999]

Except they will call and/or send someone out to make sure you received the survey and/or ask the questions directly.

 

Yep. And it gets difficult to dodge them at that point.

 

True. Personally, I LOVE the federal highway system.

I'm a fan. I was going to ask if Madison started DOT :lol: but thought, with this being Easter (He is risen!!!) perhaps I should give my sarcasm a rest.

[LidiyaDawn]

A relative of mine doesn't believe in giving this sort of information out, so when this type of 'required' survey comes around, he fills it out with a bunch of (normal sounding but) fake information and sends it off like that.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm a fan. I was going to ask if Madison started DOT :lol: but thought, with this being Easter (He is risen!!!) perhaps I should give my sarcasm a rest.

 

The original champion was Eisenhower. He lobbied heavily for it because of his experiences. The first was as a junior officer crossing the country on the Lincoln Highway in a convoy. He gained even more appreciation for such a system after traveling the German autobahn. I guess he was an un-democratic socialist type just like FDR?

 

Of course, if we had followed Libertarian ideals we wouldn't have bothered with the Germans until they had conquered the world and were crossing our borders. Then each state would have sent out their militias. I'm sure that would have worked out fine.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[lionfamily1999]

The original champion was Eisenhower. He lobbied heavily for it because of his experiences. First, as a junior officer crossing the country on the Lincoln Highway in a convoy. He gained even more appreciation for such a system after traveling the German autobahn. I guess he was an un-democratic socialist type just like FDR?

 

Of course, if we had followed Libertarian ideals we wouldn't have bothered with the Germans until they had conquered the world and were crossing our borders. Then each state would have sent out their militias. I'm sure that would have worked out fine.

I was just joking, I knew Madison didn't start DOT... :lol:

 

Sunrise service makes my brain move slowly.

[Mrs Mungo]

I was just joking, I knew Madison didn't start DOT...

 

Oh, I know you didn't think that. I was just sharing. ;)

[bluecalmsea]

I did not fill in last year's census. I only filled in how many people live in my house. I included a letter and relevant parts of the constitution.

 

A census worker showed up and asked if I'd like to give her more info. I said nope and she left. No fine, nothing.

[lionfamily1999]

Oh, I know you didn't think that. I was just sharing. ;)

I am going to go drink more coffee and try to kick start my day a bit.

 

I'll come back to discuss how helpful it is when people lie on the census or when answering polls. Everybody wins when someone throws off the results :D

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Yes, you are legally required to answer the American Community Survey, just like the census. You *could* be fined up to $5,000.

More info:

https://askacs.census.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/781

 

If you want to know that it *is* part of the ACS and not a scam you can call and ask: http://www.census.gov/npc/contactus.html

 

This isn't something new. Questions like these have been asked for a long time. Only the name and methodology have changed.

 

 

 

Part of the reason they ask about commutes and such is because they use that information to help determine where to improve federal highways or invest in public transit systems.

 

You can find out reasons for specific questions here, it's pretty interesting.

 

edited to fix the link

 

 

 

Thanks for your voice of reason Mrs. Mungo:001_smile:

Edited April 24, 2011 by priscilla
spelling

[shea]

It is true that the first two censuses only asked about number of people in the household and slaves owned. However, to extrapolate that to say that they only intent of the founding fathers was to only count heads forever, that's wrong. James Madison was president when the census was first used for economic purposes.

 

http://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/index_of_questions/1810_1.html

 

I don't believe it was the intent of the founding fathers for the census to be used as an excuse to gather such intrusive information as the OP states was on her census form.

 

"to disclose my mortgage payment,

my utility bills,

what time my husband leaves for work every morning, how long it takes to get to work, and if he carpools,

if we have a toilet, a sink, a stove, a fridge, running water,

how many bedrooms we have,

our income,

if we went on vacation recently,

our health coverage,

etc.........(just 38 minutes worth of questions like this. that's all)"

 

Not all of the founding fathers were Federalists.

Edited April 24, 2011 by suenc

[Carrie12345]

II don't mind these sort of things, but I never know what to do with some questions. When does dh leave for work? Well, sometimes 4am, sometimes 10am, sometimes 9pm, and sometimes he doesn't. Depends on what's going on.

 

We did whatever the pre-census stuff was called, and I drove the poor gov't man nuts on heritage. Neither dh, ex (ds's. Father) nor I have any full-blooded anything until 3 generations before us, and. Only a few of those, at that! Since I couldn't remember what tribe dh's g-grandmother was (required to claim NA), I think I made him either Syrian or German, and I claimed Swede for me and. The kids! A pointless exercise for us mutts!

[WarriorMama]

I live in the suburbs of Toronto, and visit my parents regularily who live right downtown. Toronto is still a safe, clean, wonderful big city!

 

Not to hijack, but I want to second this. I live in Toronto and it's a very safe city overall. The implication that it's dangerous and crime-riddled is a little excessive. Just wanted to defend my city...back to the Constitution now. ;)

[ChandlerMom]

We got one of these after 2000 (Bush's LOOOOONG form, twice as invasive). I WISH I'd gotten it this year since Obama cut it in half!

 

I think it is natural to feel uncomfortable. But the fact something makes us uncomfortable does NOT mean it is unconstitutional. As Mrs Mungo pointed out, it's been upheld in court repeatedly.

 

The one thing to keep in mind is that as soon as it is received, the answers are disassociated from you. They don't keep "Mrs SonSo's response". Simple truth is the "evil invasive" government doesn't give a fig about YOUR information as an individual. They are only interested in bulk statistics. The one's you should be worried about is private companies that DO care DESPERATELY about your personal information (so they can more efficiently sell you stuff). It's private companies that gather your financial info to determine your credit score, not the gov't. It's actually the gov't job to limit these invasions (create limits on what they can collect, how they can use it, and who they can sell the info to).

 

So yes, I filled it out. Like I fill out a ballot with my (personal) choices and trust those votes are disassociated from me personally, counted, and no one is going to drag me from my home and shoot me for my beliefs (all things we take for granted that most people in this world cannot!).

[cara]

I wonder how many states are losing representation in Congress because people didn't want to fill out the form?