the4Rs Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Have you all heard about this? It looks very interesting. Obviously this is a movie for Christians by Christians. http://www.indoctrinationmovie.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineFarmMom Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I'd like to see it!! That was cool that Voddie Baucham was in the clip for it. I don't think the information is that new, though. I think most Christians are pretty aware of the lies and indoctrination going on presently! It's one of the many reasons we homeschool!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the4Rs Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 Right, we who are current Christians who homeschool see it, but I think this was made to get an honest discussion going with Christians who don't see that it is happening (i.e. most people in my church). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineFarmMom Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Right, we who are current Christians who homeschool see it, but I think this was made to get an honest discussion going with Christians who don't see that it is happening (i.e. most people in my church). Yes, I do see your point. I have Christian family members who really just want to turn a blind eye to it. I also have a brilliant nephew who saw through it and tried to stand against it while still in high school. It was not always very pretty. :sad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Actually, if 90% of Christians send their kids to PS as the trailer indicated, then I would argue that maybe many of them are not fully aware! I often talk to parents who don't seem to have a clue what is going on in the middle and high schools. And I am a former high school teacher and counselor who dealt with those parents! Now, please know I am NOT anti-PS.....I know there are reasons to send a child to a PS.....but I also think that if you send your child, you need to be much more aware than most parents seem to be. I have told my kids they are allowed to go to school if they wish, but it will be a charter school or magnet program that we can both decide on. It will NOT be the local PS for a variety of reasons, even though academically it is good. I look forward to seeing this movie. Dawn I'd like to see it!! That was cool that Voddie Baucham was in the clip for it. I don't think the information is that new, though. I think most Christians are pretty aware of the lies and indoctrination going on presently! It's one of the many reasons we homeschool!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the4Rs Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 Dawn- I am in complete agreement with you! I am not anti-PS either but I do wish that many of the Christians I know wouldn't slough off what is really going on. This calls parents to be even more involved and more vigilant if they do send their kids to PS. Where we live it is either homeschool or public school. No other options so homeschool was the only choice we felt comfortable with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Movies like this make me shudder. False dichotomy and all. I think if it airs in my city I will attend in a rainbow tshirt and a pro choice homeschooler button on my hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristusG Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Interesting movie! I had never heard of it. It's the #1 reason why we homeschool though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I think sometimes I forget that the hive is not the world :lol: I 'know' so many people here that are aware of this situation in many ps that I forget the people around me don't tend to see the same things the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 This is not about Christians in a general sense. This film is produced by Gary North, the son in law of Rushdoony. It is for Christian Reconstructionists. http://reason.com/archives/1998/11/01/invitation-to-a-stoning Many Christians are not aware of this particular strand of dominionist theology and even attend churches where this is the underlying political philosophy yet the church members do not know exactly what it is to be a "christian nation, " with this particular slant. If this is your particular persuasion bully for you. If not well consider yourself informed before you spend your money on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 This is not about Christians in a general sense. This film is produced by Gary North, the son in law of Rushdoony. It is for Christian Reconstructionists. http://reason.com/archives/1998/11/01/invitation-to-a-stoning Many Christians are not aware of this particular strand of dominionist theology and even attend churches where this is the underlying political philosophy yet the church members do not know exactly what it is to be a "christian nation, " with this particular slant. If this is your particular persuasion bully for you. If not well consider yourself informed before you spend your money on it. You know you've gone too far when Falwell calls you scary... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) nt Edited January 15, 2011 by WordGirl better to say nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 This is not about Christians in a general sense. This film is produced by Gary North, the son in law of Rushdoony. It is for Christian Reconstructionists. http://reason.com/archives/1998/11/01/invitation-to-a-stoning Walter Olson! After PJ O'Rourke, he's the funniest libertarian we have! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secular_mom Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I find it fascinating that when public schools do NOT teach ANY religion it is called indoctrination, but people who indoctrinate their children in a religious setting don't seem to see themselves as indoctrinating their kids. No religious teaching=indoctrination but singing religious songs, memorizing bible/other religious text verses from a very young age, bible stories/other religious stories as bedtime stories, taking kids to Sunday school every week, telling children that there is only ONE 'right' way and that there IS definitely a god and only ONE god and THIS is how he/she/it is to be worshiped, etc. =something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Secular Mom, from a Christian perspective, it is indoctrination. It's teaching children not to seek God, not to turn to God, not to worship God. It's teaching them to discount God and turn to man for the answers. There's a lot more than that, but I'm super sleepy ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 This is not about Christians in a general sense. This film is produced by Gary North, the son in law of Rushdoony. It is for Christian Reconstructionists. http://reason.com/archives/1998/11/01/invitation-to-a-stoning Many Christians are not aware of this particular strand of dominionist theology and even attend churches where this is the underlying political philosophy yet the church members do not know exactly what it is to be a "christian nation, " with this particular slant. If this is your particular persuasion bully for you. If not well consider yourself informed before you spend your money on it. These guys really want to bring back stoning? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 This is not about Christians in a general sense. This film is produced by Gary North, the son in law of Rushdoony. It is for Christian Reconstructionists. http://reason.com/archives/1998/11/01/invitation-to-a-stoning Many Christians are not aware of this particular strand of dominionist theology and even attend churches where this is the underlying political philosophy yet the church members do not know exactly what it is to be a "christian nation, " with this particular slant. If this is your particular persuasion bully for you. If not well consider yourself informed before you spend your money on it. According to this webisite, this movie is produced by Collin Gunn, Joaquin Fernandez and Scott Eash. Am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 You know, I would love for a documentary to be made from the perspective of John Taylor Gatto's Underground History of American Education......the reasons proposed in his book are just as important to me as the Christian reasons. FWIW: I also don't agree with everything in this film's trailer.....which is why I would like to see it. I do respect Franklin Graham and Charles Stanley though. I really don't even know the other folks in there. And when I say I respect leaders, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with everything they say. I don't always agree with Gary Bauer or "Christian politicals" either. I tend to lean on the moderate side, and I would say more, but I really don't want to get too political. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I hadn't thought about it or known about it, but this thread intrigues me (can't watch trailers as we don't have a fast enough connection at home). I'm thinking we'll watch it out of curiosity now, especially since I work in our local public high school (subbing) and my youngest is going there. It could make for some interesting conversation. FWIW, we pulled all three of ours out, but 100% for academic reasons. My youngest is only back due to other (personal to him) issues. If anyone wants to see one example of my academic reasons, check out this World History Final I was giving yesterday to our 10th graders: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237109 I verbally had my 9th grader answer the questions when he got home. He hasn't had the course at all and only missed two. Absolutely none of the students in either class I gave the test to got 100%. Many failed. Some answers were quite amusing if I didn't look past the print to understand what it really means. Edited to add: It's helped me realize why my 9th grader never had to study for his 20th Century American History course and still got an A+ in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizzie in Ma Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 You know you've gone too far when Falwell calls you scary... :lol::lol::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Watched the trailer and a lot of what I'm hearing is, besides old news, (do a quick study of the history of education in America starting with the Prussian system of ed in the late 1800's which will quickly sequeway to Mann and Dewey) fear mongering and reactionary. If Christians (homeschooling and otherwise) want to make a difference in the world (including and especially in their own homes) they need to be visionary, not reactionary. Kids are leaving the church in droves becasue it's not meaningful, and as much as I hate using this word, relevant. The message of the Living Christ has somehow not come alive to them. Perhaps because those of us in the church enact it formulatically rather than transformationally. Reductionist living (don't do this, don't go here, etc), rather than purposeful, abundant, generous living, is NOT the answer for our kids, no matter how much better it makes us feel as parents, pastors, or Christian leaders. Whatever good that might be contained in this message (bring your kids home, the public school pedagogy is antithetical to a Christian worldview) is buried beneath, "The sky is falling." And that is why I can't stand going to homeschool conferences.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I don't see anything that says North produced it, but his name is on their promotional items and he's involved in the project. A lot of those names I recognize from discussing Reconstructionism in the homeschool movement before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Atl Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 My oldest goes to a public school. There's talk of god all over the place, even from her teachers. I've never seen examples of how public schools teach kids to be atheists? If anything, my kid has been pressured by her peers, and by one of her teachers, about her lack of faith. The public school system has an educational problem (trying to teach different learners all the same way) not a faith problem, but then Christians (not all but many) would like us all to believe the same. Kinda sounds like the reason the public schools are failing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevilla Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) Taken from the main page: We just finished our new trailer with clips from Doug Phillips, Erwin Lutzer, Sam Blumenfeld, Geoff Botkin, Voddie Baucham, Ray Moore, David d'Escoto, Gary North, Col. John Eidsmoe, Gary DeMar, Kevin Swanson, Herb Titus, Joe Morecraft, Israel Wayne, David Goetsch, Mike Metarko and others. Blech - I wouldn't embrace a movie filled with the message those men preach. Patriarchy at its finest :(. I completely disagree with their interpretation of what it means to engage with our culture. FWIW, I have not found our local schools to preach atheism or be antithetical to Christianity. Our local elementary school has partnerships with a local church and Christian college - both send members over to work with students. Many of the teachers are Christians as well. I've perused our public school's educational offerings extensively and haven't found principles that spiritually contradict my beliefs (my big divide is their educational philosophy since they're clearly not a classical model nor are they rigorous ;)). Edited January 15, 2011 by Sevilla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgiana Daniels Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 My oldest goes to a public school. There's talk of god all over the place, even from her teachers. I've never seen examples of how public schools teach kids to be atheists? If anything, my kid has been pressured by her peers, and by one of her teachers, about her lack of faith. The public school system has an educational problem (trying to teach different learners all the same way) not a faith problem, but then Christians (not all but many) would like us all to believe the same. Kinda sounds like the reason the public schools are failing. Wow, that is SO opposite what it was like for my oldest in PS high school. She got bullied for her Christian faith to the point of having to involve school officials, who then brought in the police to talk to the kids doing the bullying. Only one of many reasons I plan to keep the littles at home as long as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalphs Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 You know, I would love for a documentary to be made from the perspective of John Taylor Gatto's Underground History of American Education......the reasons proposed in his book are just as important to me as the Christian reasons. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) This is not about Christians in a general sense. This film is produced by Gary North, the son in law of Rushdoony. It is for Christian Reconstructionists. http://reason.com/archives/1998/11/01/invitation-to-a-stoning Many Christians are not aware of this particular strand of dominionist theology and even attend churches where this is the underlying political philosophy yet the church members do not know exactly what it is to be a "christian nation, " with this particular slant. If this is your particular persuasion bully for you. If not well consider yourself informed before you spend your money on it. I'm not sure it is produced by Gary North - I got the idea from the trailer that Colin Gunn produced it. Nevertheless, North is in it as are many other Christian Reconstructionists. I agree with the premise that Christians should not have their children in public schools, but I do not agree with reconsctructionism. America is not and never has been a "Christian" nation - there is only one Christian nation and that is the New Jerusalem - heaven. In order to be Christian, the King has to be God and that is definitely not the case now and never has been for America. Yes, I realize Christianity influenced America greatly, but the term "Christian nation" goes beyond that and I think it is dangerous to think that America could ever be that. The body of Christ is all over the world, not just here in America. I'd like to see the movie in order to "eat the meat and spit out the bones" but I think Christians have to be careful not to swallow this line of thinking hook, line and sinker. As Christians we are called to bring up our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and I think this necessarily means keeping them out of the pagan environment of ps - but we are not called to create a Christian government/nation. As adults, we are to be salt and light to this world while waiting for the return of Christ who will then set up His own kingdom. Dominionsim is an aberration of true Christianity and it is very important to realize this. There is a difference between Christians influencing society and culture for good and actually trying to set up a Biblical government in Washington, D.C. I'd also like to address the issue of Christians indoctrinating their own children. The word indoctrination comes from the word doctrine which simply means "teaching." In the same way that I do not teach my children that there is a Santa Claus because that would be lying to them, I do teach my children the Bible because I believe that it is the truth. Yes, I suppose you could call that indoctrination. Someone is going to indoctrinate children one way or another. I prefer that mine be taught truth rather than a lie. I can understand why that would be difficult for a non-Christian to understand and why they would see that as "indoctrination" in a negative sense. But if you really thought something was true, you wouldn't see it as a problem. For instance, if you believe the earth revolves around the sun, you wouldn't have a problem teaching that to your children and you'd have trouble with anyone who tried to teach your children otherwise. That's the way it is for Christians - we believe the Bible is absolute truth and have a lot of trouble with those who teach otherwise, either by directly refuting it or by ignoring it as the source of truth. It really would be nice if others were tolerant of that. Edited January 15, 2011 by Kathleen in VA typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 All I know is, thank goodness for separation of church and state! May the Constitution never fall. The Founding Fathers would be appalled at that video.I thought this was about removing children from school, because of all the mess? Did I miss something? Wow, that is SO opposite what it was like for my oldest in PS high school. She got bullied for her Christian faith to the point of having to involve school officials, who then brought in the police to talk to the kids doing the bullying. Only one of many reasons I plan to keep the littles at home as long as possible. Same here. The local elementary school still allowed teachers to be open about their religions, but by middle school that flew out the window. The school that I attended (different ps in the same area) tried to expel me for bringing my bible with me... I had to point out that it was allowed :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Atheism is a religion, like it or not. I'm looking more and more forward to seeing this!! With such strong opposition, it must be hitting a nerve with the truth!! I believe that this would be an example of "guilt by association" fallacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Atl Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) Wow, that is SO opposite what it was like for my oldest in PS high school. She got bullied for her Christian faith to the point of having to involve school officials, who then brought in the police to talk to the kids doing the bullying. Only one of many reasons I plan to keep the littles at home as long as possible. I guess AZ is not as conservative as it's portrayed. I live in the South, so that might be answer. I will add, my daughter goes to a very diverse school (Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc). Most all of them follow some sort of faith, and talk about it all the time, posted all over their FB pages, on t-shirts, etc. Among the parent groups (PTSA), faith or at least activities tied to the various faiths is talked about all the time. It's everywhere. I honestly believe this is the norm, and not what you've experienced. Even in NYC, my mother was told by neighbors, that she was sending her kids to hell by not sending them to church. I just don't buy the "atheism is taking over" talk. Now commercialism... that I'd buy. :lol: Edited January 15, 2011 by Jenny in Atl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I'd also like to address the issue of Christians indoctrinating their own children. The word indoctrination comes from the word doctrine which simply means "teaching." In the same way that I do not teach my children that there is a Santa Claus because that would be lying to them, I do teach my children the Bible because I believe that it is the truth. Yes, I suppose you could call that indoctrination. Someone is going to indoctrinate children one way or another. I prefer that mine be taught truth rather than a lie. I can understand why that would be difficult for a non-Christian to understand and why they would see that as "indoctrination" in a negative sense. But if you really thought something was true, you wouldn't see it as a problem. For instance, if you believe the earth revolves around the sun, you wouldn't have a problem teaching that to your children and you'd have trouble with anyone who tried to teach your children otherwise. That's the way it is for Christians - we believe the Bible is absolute truth and have a lot of trouble with those who teach otherwise, either by directly refuting it or by ignoring it as the source of truth. It really would be nice if others were tolerant of that. This is what I was trying to say earlier, but was too sleepy to put together. :grouphug: Thank you, Kathleen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 ...I agree with the premise that Christians should not have their children in public schools, but I do not agree with reconsctructionism. America is not and never has been a "Christian" nation - there is only one Christian nation and that is the New Jerusalem - heaven. In order to be Christian, the King has to be God and that is definitely not the case now and never has been for America. Yes, I realize Christianity influenced America greatly, but the term "Christian nation" goes beyond that and I think it is dangerous to think that America could ever be that. The body of Christ is all over the world, not just here in America. ...I do teach my children the Bible because I believe that it is the truth. Yes, I suppose you could call that indoctrination. Someone is going to indoctrinate children one way or another. I prefer that mine be taught truth rather than a lie. I can understand why that would be difficult for a non-Christian to understand and why they would see that as "indoctrination" in a negative sense. But if you really thought something was true, you wouldn't see it as a problem. For instance, if you believe the earth revolves around the sun, you wouldn't have a problem teaching that to your children and you'd have trouble with anyone who tried to teach your children otherwise. That's the way it is for Christians - we believe the Bible is absolute truth and have a lot of trouble with those who teach otherwise, either by directly refuting it or by ignoring it as the source of truth. It really would be nice if others were tolerant of that. :iagree: Very well-said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) I guess AZ is not as conservative as it's portrayed. I live in the South, so that might be answer. I will add, my daughter goes to a very diverse school (Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc). Most all of them follow some sort of faith, and talk about it all the time, posted all over their FB pages, on t-shirts, etc. Among the parent groups (PTSA), faith or at least activities tied to the various faiths is talked about all the time. It's everywhere. I honestly believe this is the norm, and not what you've experienced. Even in NYC, my mother was told by neighbors, that she was sending her kids to hell by not sending them to church. I just don't by the "atheism is taking over" talk. Now commercialism... that I'd buy. :lol: THAT might be a big difference. Half of my siblings live in the South. My sister went into a scientific/math oriented, public charter that my nephew is at for a conference with the counselor. The counselor wanted to know if they went to church, why not, and that it might be a "good thing" for them to do. My sister straight up told her that she wasn't pushing it on the kids as had been done to her, that the only person she was willing to talk about religion to was one of her sisters (me :D I'm no longer pushy ;) ), and that if she decided to take the kids to church it would be an Eastern Orthodox Church. The lady's face about fell off as soon as she heard the words "Eastern Orthodox Church"...because you know that if it's not Baptist down there, then you're surely in trouble...and if it's anything close to being "Catholic" then you're going to hell :glare::tongue_smilie: (her in-laws have already told her she's going to hell for having a rosary tattoo'd to the top of her foot/ankle). The lady actually reached for a Bible and asked if she could "show you something that it says in here". Yeah, sis shut her down pretty quick on that one. How many warnings does it take to keep someone from crossing the line?! Being raised Baptist, we understand this woman's good intentions, but it's not where we are and as much as we don't like seeing pure secularism in the schools (aka the attempt to eradicate any kind of personal religious expression) neither do we like to see a faith or branch of faith shoved down other people's throats either as that is not where it belongs. If my sister wanted that, she would send her child to a Baptist school, or a Catholic school, or a Jewish school, or what ever other type of school that flows with her. On the other hand, I remember one school I went to in the midwest where students got into trouble for having a bible in school...to read during study hall after their schoolwork was done. Edited January 15, 2011 by mommaduck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secular_mom Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Atheism is a religion, like it or not. I'm looking more and more forward to seeing this!! With such strong opposition, it must be hitting a nerve with the truth!! :lol: What 'strong opposition' are you referring to? Atheism is NOT a relgion for crying out loud, why is that so hard to understand? We don't believe in ANY gods or goddesses. We don't worship any person (including ourselves) or system. Every one of us is different, we don't all have the same political views, we don't all use the same bank, we don't all have anything in common except that we don't believe in any gods or goddesses. Sheesh.:tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Peach Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Watched the trailer and a lot of what I'm hearing is, besides old news, (do a quick study of the history of education in America starting with the Prussian system of ed in the late 1800's which will quickly sequeway to Mann and Dewey) fear mongering and reactionary. If Christians (homeschooling and otherwise) want to make a difference in the world (including and especially in their own homes) they need to be visionary, not reactionary. Kids are leaving the church in droves becasue it's not meaningful, and as much as I hate using this word, relevant. The message of the Living Christ has somehow not come alive to them. Perhaps because those of us in the church enact it formulatically rather than transformationally. Reductionist living (don't do this, don't go here, etc), rather than purposeful, abundant, generous living, is NOT the answer for our kids, no matter how much better it makes us feel as parents, pastors, or Christian leaders. Whatever good that might be contained in this message (bring your kids home, the public school pedagogy is antithetical to a Christian worldview) is buried beneath, "The sky is falling." And that is why I can't stand going to homeschool conferences.... I could not agree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I may watch it... but I am a bit leery of some of the speakers. Sort-of smacks of the same type of anti-music slant (back-masking, anything with a "beat" is satanic) kind of thing I experienced from the churches in the 80's. I have been "bullied" because of my faith... and I have been in schools where it wasn't an issue. I have also been "bullied/ostracized" within churches for being homeschooled. I remember when Kieth Green's music was "scandalous..." My mother didn't realize that several of the worship songs we were singing in church were BY Kieth Green at that time.;) While the statistics about Christian teen renouncing their faith are probably accurate, I wouldn't lay it solely at the feet of public education. I would lay it at the feet of people (and parents) in the church that (a) don't teach them about the faith (b) don't teach them how to reason their faith, and actually live in FEAR of children (even high schoolers) being exposed to any philosophy or scientific theory that isn't "Biblically based," and © refusing to accept anything but "blind adherence" to "truth." (I'm using the small "t" -- to reference things that could have various LEGITIMATE interpretations, such as the place of women in the church, a literal 7-day creation, what the phrase "whole world" means, etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgiana Daniels Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I guess AZ is not as conservative as it's portrayed. I live in the South, so that might be answer. I will add, my daughter goes to a very diverse school (Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc). Most all of them follow some sort of faith, and talk about it all the time, posted all over their FB pages, on t-shirts, etc. Among the parent groups (PTSA), faith or at least activities tied to the various faiths is talked about all the time. It's everywhere. I honestly believe this is the norm, and not what you've experienced. Even in NYC, my mother was told by neighbors, that she was sending her kids to hell by not sending them to church. I just don't buy the "atheism is taking over" talk. Now commercialism... that I'd buy. :lol: I live in one of the few liberal parts of AZ--it's like San Francisco east ;) In fact, my daughter's 11th grade English teacher (an atheist, if I recall correctly) kept making rude/derogatory comments about Christianity. We chalked it up to his ignorance about what was and was not appropriate, but if she'd been younger you'd better believe I'd have been in there sorting it out. She was old enough/well-grounded enough to handle it. Do teachers indoctrinate? Well, this guy obviously tried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Atheism is a religion, like it or not. :confused: Um, no it's not. Atheism is merely an unbelief in a god, gods, or the supernatural. It's not a structured system of beliefs. It has no rituals, no clergy, no holy books. There are no uniform beliefs. It is not a philosophy of life. Atheism does not have any sacred objects, and does not include anything even remotely similar to prayer. We do not include a higher power in reference to our actions. Unbelief in Santa is not a religion. Unbelief in a deity is not a religion. Off is not a channel on your tv set. Bald is not a hair color. Atheism is not a religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secular_mom Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 :confused: Off is not a channel on your tv set. Bald is not a hair color. May I add that to my signature? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 May I add that to my signature? :D Please do. :001_smile: Just know they aren't mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevilla Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I think a better statement is that secularism or atheism is a worldview. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Obviously, I am extremely pro-homeschooling. I am also a Christian. I didn't start homeschooling for religious reasons, but now consider that an important part of why we do homeschool. To me, if you want children to grow up and treasure their Christian faith, or their Jewish faith, or their Muslim faith ... you have to live the faith at home as a family. To me, that can happen whether you homeschool or send your kids to public school. I think it's easier to do homeschooling, but there are many Christians and others in public schools who value and live their faith. Being taught things that aren't accurate is nothing new to schools. I'm sure we're unknowingly doing it in our homeschools too. When it comes to history, it's not always easy to know the truth as it's all been recorded by humans who have their own "opinions" and biases. Pray as a family, teach the faith at home, live what you learn to the best of your ability and entrust your children to God's care. Many kids who are strong in their faith are in public schools as well as homeschooled. Just my opinion. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalphs Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Watched the trailer and a lot of what I'm hearing is, besides old news, (do a quick study of the history of education in America starting with the Prussian system of ed in the late 1800's which will quickly sequeway to Mann and Dewey) fear mongering and reactionary. If Christians (homeschooling and otherwise) want to make a difference in the world (including and especially in their own homes) they need to be visionary, not reactionary. Kids are leaving the church in droves becasue it's not meaningful, and as much as I hate using this word, relevant. The message of the Living Christ has somehow not come alive to them. Perhaps because those of us in the church enact it formulatically rather than transformationally. Reductionist living (don't do this, don't go here, etc), rather than purposeful, abundant, generous living, is NOT the answer for our kids, no matter how much better it makes us feel as parents, pastors, or Christian leaders. Whatever good that might be contained in this message (bring your kids home, the public school pedagogy is antithetical to a Christian worldview) is buried beneath, "The sky is falling." And that is why I can't stand going to homeschool conferences.... Good point Lisa! It's nice to know there are other parents out there who have the same thoughts on homeschooling conferences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secular_mom Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I think a better statement is that secularism or atheism is a worldview. :iagree: Now THAT makes sense, and it doesn't reek of someone trying to force their beliefs or their own label onto me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalphs Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Atheism is a religion, like it or not. I'm looking more and more forward to seeing this!! With such strong opposition, it must be hitting a nerve with the truth!! Dh and I were talking about this topic the other night. Reminiscing over the theological debate at UW Madison between Antony Flew and William Lane Craig held in the UW Madison Field House 1998. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I'm not sure it is produced by Gary North - I got the idea from the trailer that Colin Gunn produced it. Nevertheless, North is in it as are many other Christian Reconstructionists. I agree with the premise that Christians should not have their children in public schools, but I do not agree with reconsctructionism. America is not and never has been a "Christian" nation - there is only one Christian nation and that is the New Jerusalem - heaven. In order to be Christian, the King has to be God and that is definitely not the case now and never has been for America. Yes, I realize Christianity influenced America greatly, but the term "Christian nation" goes beyond that and I think it is dangerous to think that America could ever be that. The body of Christ is all over the world, not just here in America. I'd like to see the movie in order to "eat the meat and spit out the bones" but I think Christians have to be careful not to swallow this line of thinking hook, line and sinker. As Christians we are called to bring up our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and I think this necessarily means keeping them out of the pagan environment of ps - but we are not called to create a Christian government/nation. As adults, we are to be salt and light to this world while waiting for the return of Christ who will then set up His own kingdom. Dominionsim is an aberration of true Christianity and it is very important to realize this. There is a difference between Christians influencing society and culture for good and actually trying to set up a Biblical government in Washington, D.C. I'd also like to address the issue of Christians indoctrinating their own children. The word indoctrination comes from the word doctrine which simply means "teaching." In the same way that I do not teach my children that there is a Santa Claus because that would be lying to them, I do teach my children the Bible because I believe that it is the truth. Yes, I suppose you could call that indoctrination. Someone is going to indoctrinate children one way or another. I prefer that mine be taught truth rather than a lie. I can understand why that would be difficult for a non-Christian to understand and why they would see that as "indoctrination" in a negative sense. But if you really thought something was true, you wouldn't see it as a problem. For instance, if you believe the earth revolves around the sun, you wouldn't have a problem teaching that to your children and you'd have trouble with anyone who tried to teach your children otherwise. That's the way it is for Christians - we believe the Bible is absolute truth and have a lot of trouble with those who teach otherwise, either by directly refuting it or by ignoring it as the source of truth. It really would be nice if others were tolerant of that. :iagree: Pretty much all I was going to say, especially regarding indoctrination. We all teach our children what we believe to be true. We all indoctrinate in one way or another. We just like to use the word indoctrination when it is a belief with which we disagree. Sounds sinister I guess. :) As far as Christian Reconstructionism, there are aspects about it I don't like either. I'm not interested in a theocracy. I've never understood what problems a theocracy is trying to solve. Do they think if we have laws outlawing homosexuality, for example, we would no longer have people with those tendencies? Even the "best" people, following every law there was, would still be sinners in need of salvation. I have a cousin who has recently finished seminary. He was proud of one of his sermons titled something along the lines of Capitalism is of God, Communism is of Satan. That kind of thing always makes me cringe. We are called to godliness, not capitalism. Seems like the old argument that we still have problems only because the right people haven't been in charge yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I think a better statement is that secularism or atheism is a worldview. That would come closer than calling it a religion, but still isn't an accurate description. There are religious people, even Christians, who strongly believe in a secular society and the separation of church and state. There are Christians who homeschool, but not for religious reasons, and with secular materials. Is their worldview secular, or is it religious? I suspect there's a bit of both. Secularism alone does not imply atheism, nor does it bind one to any particular worldview. As for atheism being a worldview, that's not entirely accurate either. The only thing we atheists have in common is that we don't believe in any deities. One of my dearest friends, also an atheist was politically conservative when I first met her 8 years ago. While she no longer is, her atheist husband is still quite conservative . I've met atheists who are Libertarians. The only worldview we share, is that we have not seen evidence of the supernatural, and therefore don't believe that any exist. As I said though, calling it a worldview is a bit more realistic than calling it a religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalphs Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 We all teach our children what we believe to be true. We all indoctrinate in one way or another. We just like to use the word indoctrination when it is a belief with which we disagree. :) I like what SWB says in the WTM, "I don't want my six year old taught religion in school. That's my job. It is my responsibility to teach my children what I believe, why I believe it, and why it makes a difference." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Atheism is a religion, like it or not. Really? Have you ever seen an atheist church, temple, or religious building? Where are their clergy? When are their meetings? What is the doctrine? Dogma? Ritual? Who do they worship? Prayer? Who do atheists pray to? Being atheist in no way resembles any definition of a religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 We all teach our children what we believe to be true. We all indoctrinate in one way or another. We just like to use the word indoctrination when it is a belief with which we disagree. Sounds sinister I guess. :) :iagree: Yep. I am not indoctrinating my children, but you are, because what you believe is so different from what I believe. We are all guilty of it to some degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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