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Illegal immigrants vs undocumented immigrants


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Someone who comes to one country from another country: immigrant

 

Someone who comes to one country from another without having gone through the proper and legal prodecudures established by a sovereign nation: illegal immigrant.

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"Labeling someone as illegal implicitly conveys a message about their worth as a human being

By Bill Mefford"

No, it labels their legal authority to be in the country they're in.....

 

:iagree: It's disturbing how people simply ignore the fact that a country has boundaries and that a country has the right to govern its own space.

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It is odd that this group wants to end "all immigration". Um, hello, when we landed here were we not interlopers? This land already HAD inhabitants! WE were the "Illegal Aliens", but now some people from our group wants to act like WE are sovereign?!

 

Unbelievable!

 

America has ALWAYS had an illegal immigration problem. Native Americans call it White People!

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It is odd that this group wants to end "all immigration". Um, hello, when we landed here were we not interlopers? This land already HAD inhabitants! WE were the "Illegal Aliens", but now some people from our group wants to act like WE are sovereign?!

 

Unbelievable!

 

America has ALWAYS had an illegal immigration problem. Native Americans call it White People!

 

 

:hurray: Sing it, sister!

 

 

Unfortunately, this is just going to end up being another bash-the-immigrants thread. It almost seems set up to be one. :001_rolleyes:

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:hurray: Sing it, sister!

 

 

Unfortunately, this is just going to end up being another bash-the-immigrants thread. It almost seems set up to be one. :001_rolleyes:

 

Yes, it does. I used to cringe everytime I used to hear white people say, "send them back to X country", about another group......and think, "But, I'd have to go "back to" Europe and I don't know my way around!

 

 

The superiority complex of the big powerful group in America is sickening and doesn't do much to further their cause.

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http://www.umc-gbcs.org/site/apps/nlnet/content.aspx?c=frLJK2PKLqF&b=6478563&ct=9002979&tr=y&auid=7597381

 

My thoughts: We are God's "beloved" no matter what we do or do not do. That does not mean that God will call the wrong (sin) we do another name just to make us feel good.

 

What is the greater sin? Letting your children die or crossing a border you aren't allowed to cross?

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Really? Please point me to the laws the original white immigrants broke.

 

 

Seriously?! I'm not interested in a back-and-forth about how white people were correct in their use of force to 'take' a country that was not theirs to begin with.

 

It's not about laws, it's about what is right. I don't believe that it was right to trample a people to make a land 'your own'. It's okay if we disagree on that, but that is MY opinion, not saying it has to be yours.

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What is the greater sin? Letting your children die or crossing a border you aren't allowed to cross?

I don't think that ANYONE here would want the children to die. AND, I for one am not against any particular race of people. I just know that I think the people that aren't right next to a country's border... have as much right to be here... going through the proper channels... as those who are.

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I like this verse. Deut 19:34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

 

 

Thank you, Simka. I'm sure someone else will pull out another Scripture in an attempt to trump yours, but FWIW yours is probably the best piece of Scripture I've seen posted here in forever, and I'm going to make a point to remember it.

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I like this verse. Deut 19:34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

 

It's a lovely verse, but are we talking about man's law or God's?

Edited by Mejane
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I like this verse. Deut 19:34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

 

You can go back and forth with bible verses on this.

Romans 13

 

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

 

The issue isn't whether or not there should be immigration. We are a country of immigrants. The problem comes when people come in illegally. I used to work with INS. Some of you know first hand how difficult it is to get here legally. It's not really fair to say to people who have spent years following the rules that we're just going to wink at law breakers. If we want more immigration, we should change the laws to make it easier. Personally, I'd favor a day worker law and increased work visa quotas. I don't favor turning a blind eye on crime.

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I like this verse. Deut 19:34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

 

I just looked in my bible. Deut. 19 only has 21 verses. Can you check your reference and let me know where that comes from? Not being snarky. Really interested.

 

ETA - found it. Leviticus 19:34. Love Bible Gateway. Of course I thought of it after I'd posted. :)

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I don't think that ANYONE here would want the children to die. AND, I for one am not against any particular race of people. I just know that I think the people that aren't right next to a country's border... have as much right to be here... going through the proper channels... as those who are.

 

You do understand that few of the people who try to go through proper channels are actually let into the country, right? And it takes years. That doesn't solve the dying children problem. Often going through proper channels is not a third option. It is truly sometimes a question of follow the law or let your kids die. Option A: escape your country illegally Option B: let your kids die

 

Also, how do you expect people who can't read or write and have no money to even have the slightest clue about "proper channels" and how to navigate them?

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It is odd that this group wants to end "all immigration". Um, hello, when we landed here were we not interlopers? This land already HAD inhabitants! WE were the "Illegal Aliens", but now some people from our group wants to act like WE are sovereign?!

 

Unbelievable!

 

America has ALWAYS had an illegal immigration problem. Native Americans call it White People!

 

:iagree: I tell my hubby this all the time. We are the illegal aliens!

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I just looked in my bible. Deut. 19 only has 21 verses. Can you check your reference and let me know where that comes from? Not being snarky. Really interested.

 

ETA - found it. Leviticus 19:34. Love Bible Gateway. Of course I thought of it after I'd posted. :)

 

 

I changed it ;)

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You can go back and forth with bible verses on this.

Romans 13

 

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

 

The issue isn't whether or not there should be immigration. We are a country of immigrants. The problem comes when people come in illegally. I used to work with INS. Some of you know first hand how difficult it is to get here legally. It's not really fair to say to people who have spent years following the rules that we're just going to wink at law breakers. If we want more immigration, we should change the laws to make it easier. Personally, I'd favor a day worker law and increased work visa quotas. I don't favor turning a blind eye on crime.

 

 

Sure you can go back and forth on it. I was just brining up the "heart" issue we "should" (said hesitantly as not all believe in the scriptures, but sometimes they have a better grasp of the law of love anyway).

 

The legality doesn't change how we should treat them.

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http://www.umc-gbcs.org/site/apps/nlnet/content.aspx?c=frLJK2PKLqF&b=6478563&ct=9002979&tr=y&auid=7597381

 

My thoughts: We are God's "beloved" no matter what we do or do not do. That does not mean that God will call the wrong (sin) we do another name just to make us feel good.

 

Well, one way to look at it is from the perspective of what They should do & of course, from that perspective, They should consider that They are breaking a law and They should not object to being called illegal.

 

I find it more convicting to look at it through the perspective of what I/We should do:

 

34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Lev. 19:34

 

8 He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing. 19 And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt. Deut. 10

 

Eph 2: 11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ....

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household

 

Both OT and NT take the perspective of remembering our own experience as "aliens."

 

What about the illegal part?

 

There is no law about immigration restriction in the OT that I have ever seen. Anyone who moves to the territory is an alien and actually gets special protected status in the same way widows and orphans do.

 

let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No’; Here is where I think our immigration laws are very unjust, especially as regards Latino immigration into unskilled /low skilled jobs. We are, on the one hand saying, "No. You have entered illegally" and on the other hand, our economy is absorbing the immigrants and we are benefitting from their low-cost labor. So far, AZ is the only state that has even taken a shot at doing anything effective, by hitting the "demand" side. Most states pretty much look the other way and do not give consequences to the employers who are benefitting from the influz of labor. So to me, it looks like a baited trap. "Here is the $$ you desire to care for your family. Come and get it. Only a very few will be deported. It's worth the risk."

 

"Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow."

Then all the people shall say, "Amen!" Deut 27

9 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. 10 Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other.' Zech 7

 

So for myself, it is my priority to ask what Scripture asks ME to do and that is to work for justice for the alien. I think our immigration law/practices are unjust and that that is the problem. There is a demand for labor and we allow Them to meet that, and look the other way. We allow professionals to immigrate from Mexico much more easily than unskilled laborers, yet it is the unskilled laborers who are filling niches in our economy.

 

Also, if I look at it from the perspective us the Golden Rule, I also have a problem with our immigration policy. I ask myself what I would do if I could not provide a decent upbringing for my children: if I could not earn enough to feed them well , if they were not being provided an education, if they were in danger because of the actions of drug cartels, etc. Would I immigrate illegally if legal means were denied to me to protect my children? Homeschoolers homeschooled illegally to earn what was just for the rest of us. Most Mexicans are of Native American blood. Did the Europeans in North, South, or Central America follow their "immigration laws?"

 

For me this below is the most compelling passage:

 

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ ...

 

40 “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Matt 25

Edited by Laurie4b
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You do understand that few of the people who try to go through proper channels are actually let into the country, right? And it takes years. That doesn't solve the dying children problem.

 

There are children dying all over the world. It's tragic, but should they and their families all emigrate? It's not a logical solution. We should aid such oppressed peoples in their own countries, and we do, albeit not enough.

 

There is no justifiable reason why a country cannot place restrictions and stipulations on whom they allow inside their borders. Borders exist and are legal.

 

No one here has said they are opposed to immigration, only illegal immigration.

 

The old argument about the NA's is just that. I think they were treated horribly, too, but what is your (general) logical resolution to that specific issue? Certainly, allowing unrestricted immigration does nothing to assuage that, and in fact creates the same issues for that population as it does for the general population if not more, as less tax money is available for social programs that might benefit them.

Edited by Mejane
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You can go back and forth with bible verses on this.

Romans 13

 

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

 

The issue isn't whether or not there should be immigration. We are a country of immigrants. The problem comes when people come in illegally. I used to work with INS. Some of you know first hand how difficult it is to get here legally. It's not really fair to say to people who have spent years following the rules that we're just going to wink at law breakers. If we want more immigration, we should change the laws to make it easier. Personally, I'd favor a day worker law and increased work visa quotas. I don't favor turning a blind eye on crime.

 

Yes, Rom 13 governs what THEY should do. What should WE do? That is the more important question given that it's WE who are talking. WE have control over what WE do. WE should be changing laws so that our laws reflect justice.

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It is odd that this group wants to end "all immigration". Um, hello, when we landed here were we not interlopers? This land already HAD inhabitants! WE were the "Illegal Aliens", but now some people from our group wants to act like WE are sovereign?!

 

Unbelievable!

 

America has ALWAYS had an illegal immigration problem. Native Americans call it White People!

 

Come on:

 

1. While they may have been cheated (actually were cheated) in many cases the land was bought from the Indians.

2. If you do not want to accept the concept of the land being bought then view the settlers as invaders. In conflict if you lose...you lose. The Indian tribes, in many cases fought aginst the settlers, but they also fought with them. Anyway they lost.

3. Different time, one must take everything in historical context.

4. As you appear to be supportive of the Indians, I assume you support their methods of driving out the settlers. Now if we refuse to accept historical context then should we shoot, on sight, illegals?

5. After the first settlers arrived it is simply inaccurate to argue that the rest were all illegal.

 

Your argument holds little water I am afraid. Sounds good but then again "sound and fury..."

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Thou shalt not murder in order to get your brothers' land which you covet.

Thou shalt not waltz in and steal your brothers' land which you covet.

 

I'm not up on Native American laws....

 

Perhaps googling the white immigrants own treaties with the Native Americans and which of their own laws they broke would be profitable?

Edited by Laurie4b
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There are children dying all over the world. It's tragic, but should they and their families all emigrate? It's not a logical solution. We should aid such oppressed peoples in their own countries, and we do, albeit not enough.

 

There is no justifiable reason why a country cannot place restrictions and stipulations on whom they allow inside their borders. Borders exist and are legal.

 

No one here has said they are opposed to immigration, only illegal immigration.

 

The old argument about the NA's is just that. I think they were treated horribly, too, but what is your (general) logical resolution to that specific issue? Certainly, allowing unrestricted immigration does nothing to assuage that, and in fact creates the same issues for that population as it does for the general population if not more, as less tax money is available for social programs that might benefit them.

 

There are different angles to this.

 

To an individual family who is watching their children waste away: They do not have the ability to immigrate legally. They have an option to not act and watch their children die, or act. That answer is black and white to me.

 

To a country with limited resources: It can't save everyone, even if it would like to try.

 

Both are reasonable. I do not blame countries for laws, and I do not blame individuals for acting in love for their family. Many do blame those families though.

 

I think it is ignorance. After my first mission, my aunt looked at my pictures and asked, "Why don't they just get jobs?" She was quite sincere. I explained to her that there are no jobs where they are, and they have no transportation to where there are jobs, and no way to get transportation. Even if they did, they were the wrong culture and no one would hire them anyhow. Then she understood. She then asked why they don't try to get the papers to come to America legally. I explained that they can't read or write and will never have the amount of money required. They didn't attend school and their children are not allowed to attend school. Their children will not be able to read or write either and won't be able to get jobs. She said she, "had no idea that are people in the world who have to live like this." She truly did not know. It's easy to get riled up over immigration if you truly do not know first hand why people do it.

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There are different angles to this.

 

To an individual family who is watching their children waste away: They do not have the ability to immigrate legally. They have an option to not act and watch their children die, or act. That answer is black and white to me.

 

To a country with limited resources: It can't save everyone, even if it would like to try.

 

Both are reasonable. I do not blame countries for laws, and I do not blame individuals for acting in love for their family. Many do blame those families though.

 

I think it is ignorance. After my first mission, my aunt looked at my pictures and asked, "Why don't they just get jobs?" She was quite sincere. I explained to her that there are no jobs where they are, and they have no transportation to where there are jobs, and no way to get transportation. Even if they did, they were the wrong culture and no one would hire them anyhow. Then she understood. She then asked why they don't try to get the papers to come to America legally. I explained that they can't read or write and will never have the amount of money required. They didn't attend school and their children are not allowed to attend school. Their children will not be able to read or write either and won't be able to get jobs. She said she, "had no idea that are people in the world who have to live like this." She truly did not know. It's easy to get riled up over immigration if you truly do not know first hand why people do it.

 

:iagree:

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Yes, Rom 13 governs what THEY should do. What should WE do? That is the more important question given that it's WE who are talking. WE have control over what WE do. WE should be changing laws so that our laws reflect justice.

 

:) I was going to make this point as well. Thank you for beating me to it. :)

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Thou shalt not murder in order to get your brothers' land which you covet.

Thou shalt not waltz in and steal your brothers' land which you covet.

 

I'm not up on Native American laws....

 

Perhaps googling the white immigrants own treaties with the Native Americans and which of their own laws they broke would be profitable?

 

If memory serves me right, the original Pilgrims settled on land that was owned by a tribe wiped out by disease -- from a previous expedition of white explorers. The neighboring tribe made peace. But over time, all bets were off with expansion in the 13 colonies. War. Elbow room. Broken promises.

 

Speaking as a Tejano descendant whose (maternal) family were ripped off its land rights once Texas became in existance and as a Native Apache having my (maternal) great-grandfather in the late 1880's lie to authorities he was Apache (to avoid being shipped off back East or in OK when being Native was illegal.). He took his adopted surname and pretended to be Hispanic. ;) Of course back then, if you were Apache and hiding in Mexico, the Mexicans would kill you for a bounty. It was dangerous back then to embrace your Native heritage.

 

Keep in mind the NUMEROUS broken treaties between Natives that have never been rectified. :glare: Take Oklahoma, for example. Many of the 5 Civilized Tribes were moved there (i.e. Trail of Tears) as their land was taken from them in the SouthEast. Once in OK, oil was discovered and many a Native family or group were tricked into signing away their land due to oil being discovered on it. No profits, nothing. Just greed. Manifest Destiny at its best.

Edited by tex-mex
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It is odd that this group wants to end "all immigration". Um, hello, when we landed here were we not interlopers? This land already HAD inhabitants! WE were the "Illegal Aliens", but now some people from our group wants to act like WE are sovereign?!

 

Unbelievable!

 

America has ALWAYS had an illegal immigration problem. Native Americans call it White People!

 

 

Having the Europeans who arrived in the US be consider illegal immigrants presupposes that there was a federalized system of land ownership and borders among the various tribes which the Europeans violated with their arrival.

 

But ultimately that is irrelevant as we now have a federal government and borders that are both internationally and domestically recognized. Those who cross them without going through the proper legal channels are breaking the law. Therefore-they have illegally immigrated. Hence-illegal immigrant. Lots of folks spent much time and difficulty in places like Ellis Island in order to enter the US legally and become Americans. Why should it be any different today?

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Yes, Rom 13 governs what THEY should do. What should WE do? That is the more important question given that it's WE who are talking. WE have control over what WE do. WE should be changing laws so that our laws reflect justice.

 

Justice for whom?

-The legal citizens who can no longer go to an ER that was shut down due to nonpayment, mostly because of nonpayment by illegal immigrants/aliens?

-The legal citizen caught up the murder, kidnappings or drug trade that have exploded right along with the illegal population?

-The legal citizen whose child can't get an education in the public school because the teacher spends all day trying to 'catch up' the non-English speaking children of illegals?

-The children who have to attend school inside a BARBED WIRE FENCE and whose teacher carries a sidearm because there have been so many burglaries/hostage situations in their school because it happens to be on a common path of illegals from Mexico to the US?

-The ranchers who unfortunately have property close to the Mexican border, who have been forced to become vigilantes since the US Marshall is literally afraid to protect them?

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Having the Europeans who arrived in the US be consider illegal immigrants presupposes that there was a federalized system of land ownership and borders among the various tribes which the Europeans violated with their arrival.

 

But ultimately that is irrelevant as we now have a federal government and borders that are both internationally and domestically recognized. Those who cross them without going through the proper legal channels are breaking the law. Therefore-they have illegally immigrated. Hence-illegal immigrant. Lots of folks spent much time and difficulty in places like Ellis Island in order to enter the US legally and become Americans. Why should it be any different today?

True that.

 

My take on all of this -- the border wars/drug/violence/immigration issue will get all of us to buy into some type of national ID card -- leading to a more martial law or police state. It is getting there, kwim?

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Justice for whom?

-The legal citizens who can no longer go to an ER that was shut down due to nonpayment, mostly because of nonpayment by illegal immigrants/aliens?

-The legal citizen caught up the murder, kidnappings or drug trade that have exploded right along with the illegal population?

-The legal citizen whose child can't get an education in the public school because the teacher spends all day trying to 'catch up' the non-English speaking children of illegals?

-The children who have to attend school inside a BARBED WIRE FENCE and whose teacher carries a sidearm because there have been so many burglaries/hostage situations in their school because it happens to be on a common path of illegals from Mexico to the US?

-The ranchers who unfortunately have property close to the Mexican border, who have been forced to become vigilantes since the US Marshall is literally afraid to protect them?

 

Come now just because they are illegal does not mean that any of them would actually engage in crime. Those hundreds, arguably thousands, of Americans who have been murdered over the last decades by illegals would probably have had accidents anyway. Were the borders secure it would have no impact on crime in the US, honestly...(by the way I have a bridge...a nice one.... to sell)

Edited by pqr
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Justice for whom?

-The legal citizens who can no longer go to an ER that was shut down due to nonpayment, mostly because of nonpayment by illegal immigrants/aliens?

-The legal citizen caught up the murder, kidnappings or drug trade that have exploded right along with the illegal population?

-The legal citizen whose child can't get an education in the public school because the teacher spends all day trying to 'catch up' the non-English speaking children of illegals?

-The children who have to attend school inside a BARBED WIRE FENCE and whose teacher carries a sidearm because there have been so many burglaries/hostage situations in their school because it happens to be on a common path of illegals from Mexico to the US?

-The ranchers who unfortunately have property close to the Mexican border, who have been forced to become vigilantes since the US Marshall is literally afraid to protect them?

 

Justice for all.

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Justice for whom?

-The legal citizens who can no longer go to an ER that was shut down due to nonpayment, mostly because of nonpayment by illegal immigrants/aliens?

-The legal citizen caught up the murder, kidnappings or drug trade that have exploded right along with the illegal population?

-The legal citizen whose child can't get an education in the public school because the teacher spends all day trying to 'catch up' the non-English speaking children of illegals?

-The children who have to attend school inside a BARBED WIRE FENCE and whose teacher carries a sidearm because there have been so many burglaries/hostage situations in their school because it happens to be on a common path of illegals from Mexico to the US?

-The ranchers who unfortunately have property close to the Mexican border, who have been forced to become vigilantes since the US Marshall is literally afraid to protect them?

 

You might want to dredge up some statistics on how many murders are committed by illegals vs how many are committed by citizens.

 

The people I work with are extremely non-violent. They love their children. Their children are wonderful and basically little adults capable of caring for newborns at 6 years old. They all work their behinds off from sun up to sun down and would be a great compliment to the American work force.

 

You appear to be quite the fan of rhetoric, and very easily moved by fear mongering.

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That because we made the laws. We didn't abide by the laws of the people who owned the land at the time. What if the illegal aliens moved here and made their own laws?

 

That's what people are afraid of. Having the advantage now, why give it up? :glare: That any of us may be the current beneficiaries of the immoral behavior of our ancestors is now irrelevant to the discussion. :001_rolleyes:

 

I actually support immigration laws. I just don't think our current ones are just.

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There are children dying all over the world. It's tragic, but should they and their families all emigrate? It's not a logical solution. We should aid such oppressed peoples in their own countries, and we do, albeit not enough.

 

There is no justifiable reason why a country cannot place restrictions and stipulations on whom they allow inside their borders. Borders exist and are legal.

 

No one here has said they are opposed to immigration, only illegal immigration.

 

The old argument about the NA's is just that. I think they were treated horribly, too, but what is your (general) logical resolution to that specific issue? Certainly, allowing unrestricted immigration does nothing to assuage that, and in fact creates the same issues for that population as it does for the general population if not more, as less tax money is available for social programs that might benefit them.

 

Excellent post.

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You might want to dredge up some statistics on how many murders are committed by illegals vs how many are committed by citizens.

 

.

 

From a US GAO report. http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05337r.html

 

* At the federal level, the number of criminal aliens incarcerated

increased from about 42,000 at the end of calendar year 2001 to about

49,000 at the end of calendar year 2004--a 15 percent increase. The

percentage of all federal prisoners who are criminal aliens has

remained the same over the last 3 years--about 27 percent. The majority

of criminal aliens incarcerated at the end of calendar year 2004 were

identified as citizens of Mexico. We estimate the federal cost of

incarcerating criminal aliens--BOP's cost to incarcerate criminals and

reimbursements to state and local governments under SCAAP--totaled

approximately $5.8 billion for calendar years 2001 through 2004. BOP's

cost to incarcerate criminal aliens rose from about $950 million in

2001 to about $1.2 billion in 2004--a 14 percent increase. Federal

reimbursements for incarcerating criminal aliens in state prisons and

local jails declined from $550 million in 2001 to $280 million in 2004,

in a large part due to a reduction in congressional appropriations.

 

* At the state level, the 50 states received reimbursement for

incarcerating about 77,000 criminal aliens in fiscal year 2002 and 47

states received reimbursement for incarcerating about 74,000 in fiscal

year 2003.[Footnote 1] For the 5 states incarcerating about 80 percent

of these criminal aliens in fiscal year 2003, [Footnote 2] about 68

percent incarcerated in midyear 2004 reported that the country of

citizenship or country of birth as Mexico, the Dominican Republic, or

Cuba. We estimate that 4 of these 5 states spent about $1.6 billion to

incarcerate criminal aliens reimbursed through SCAAP during fiscal

years 2002 and 2003.[Footnote 3] We estimate that the federal

government reimbursed these four states about 25 percent or less of the

estimated cost to incarcerate these criminal aliens in fiscal years

2002 and 2003.

 

* At the local level, in fiscal year 2002, SCAAP reimbursed about 750

local governments for incarcerating about 138,000 criminal aliens. In

fiscal year 2003, SCAAP reimbursed about 700 local governments for

about 147,000 criminal aliens, with 5 local jail systems[Footnote 4]

accounting for about 30 percent of these criminal aliens. The 147,000

criminal aliens incarcerated during fiscal year 2003 spent a total of

about 8.5 million days in jail. Mexico leads as the country of birth

for foreign-born arrestees at these 5 local jails in fiscal year 2003.

We estimate that 4 of these 5 local jails spent an estimated $390

million in fiscal years 2002 and 2003 to incarcerate criminal aliens

and were reimbursed about $73 million through SCAAP. We estimate that

the federal government reimbursed these localities about 25 percent or

less of the estimated criminal alien incarceration cost in fiscal years

2002 and 2003.

 

 

Do you really want the stats on violent crime as they sink your argument quite handily?

Edited by pqr
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That's what people are afraid of. Having the advantage now, why give it up? :glare: That any of us may be the current beneficiaries of the immoral behavior of our ancestors is now irrelevant to the discussion. :001_rolleyes:

 

I actually support immigration laws. I just don't think our current ones are just.

 

We have it good because our ancestors were immoral. Good point. So will the children of illegal immigrants. Guess we really can't complain! Something to think about. :tongue_smilie:

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We have it good because our ancestors were immoral. Good point. So will the children of illegal immigrants. Guess we really can't complain! Something to think about. :tongue_smilie:

 

So in this case, two wrongs make a right? Interesting. ;)

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From a US GAO report. http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05337r.html

 

* At the federal level, the number of criminal aliens incarcerated

increased from about 42,000 at the end of calendar year 2001 to about

49,000 at the end of calendar year 2004--a 15 percent increase. The

percentage of all federal prisoners who are criminal aliens has

remained the same over the last 3 years--about 27 percent. The majority

of criminal aliens incarcerated at the end of calendar year 2004 were

identified as citizens of Mexico. We estimate the federal cost of

incarcerating criminal aliens--BOP's cost to incarcerate criminals and

reimbursements to state and local governments under SCAAP--totaled

approximately $5.8 billion for calendar years 2001 through 2004. BOP's

cost to incarcerate criminal aliens rose from about $950 million in

2001 to about $1.2 billion in 2004--a 14 percent increase. Federal

reimbursements for incarcerating criminal aliens in state prisons and

local jails declined from $550 million in 2001 to $280 million in 2004,

in a large part due to a reduction in congressional appropriations.

 

* At the state level, the 50 states received reimbursement for

incarcerating about 77,000 criminal aliens in fiscal year 2002 and 47

states received reimbursement for incarcerating about 74,000 in fiscal

year 2003.[Footnote 1] For the 5 states incarcerating about 80 percent

of these criminal aliens in fiscal year 2003, [Footnote 2] about 68

percent incarcerated in midyear 2004 reported that the country of

citizenship or country of birth as Mexico, the Dominican Republic, or

Cuba. We estimate that 4 of these 5 states spent about $1.6 billion to

incarcerate criminal aliens reimbursed through SCAAP during fiscal

years 2002 and 2003.[Footnote 3] We estimate that the federal

government reimbursed these four states about 25 percent or less of the

estimated cost to incarcerate these criminal aliens in fiscal years

2002 and 2003.

 

* At the local level, in fiscal year 2002, SCAAP reimbursed about 750

local governments for incarcerating about 138,000 criminal aliens. In

fiscal year 2003, SCAAP reimbursed about 700 local governments for

about 147,000 criminal aliens, with 5 local jail systems[Footnote 4]

accounting for about 30 percent of these criminal aliens. The 147,000

criminal aliens incarcerated during fiscal year 2003 spent a total of

about 8.5 million days in jail. Mexico leads as the country of birth

for foreign-born arrestees at these 5 local jails in fiscal year 2003.

We estimate that 4 of these 5 local jails spent an estimated $390

million in fiscal years 2002 and 2003 to incarcerate criminal aliens

and were reimbursed about $73 million through SCAAP. We estimate that

the federal government reimbursed these localities about 25 percent or

less of the estimated criminal alien incarceration cost in fiscal years

2002 and 2003.

 

 

Do you really want the stats on violent crime as they sink your argument quite handily?

 

Yes I do. And no, they don't. Compare those to the cost of incarcerating legal citizens. Both cost a lot. We jail more of our own, though! It's not like our own citizens are beacons of morality and good citizenship.

 

But guess what? If those people were given an opportunity to make a life for themselves in a legal manner, I bet some would choose that instead. Instead, it comes down to a choice between poverty and illegal activity for them. Also, when I talk about people coming here for a better life, that does not in any way include those who come here because of the drug trade, which is HUGE. We can keep those guys out! I wonder what those numbers look like when you take the drug trade out of the picture. I am talking *only* about those who come here for a better life for their family. People like those I work with.

 

However, you would not believe the death toll in Mexico due to the drug trafficking in Mexico. It's far higher than that in America, and poor Mexico is only a thoroughfare. Americans are the consumers bringing about all the drug trade violence.

 

eta: Over 30k dead in Mexico due to the drug trade here since 2006. That's because the government here cracked down to try to keep drugs out of America. America ought to thank Mexico for the sacrifices made. Traffickers just storm into villages and leave a pile of bodies with no heads to get back at the government. Or, they leave them hanging from bridges by their feet with no heads. Either way, lots of innocents die here in retaliation. All because of drug sales in America. I'm not blaming the average American, of course. I just watch what this country is losing to keeps drugs out of another country and it hurts.

Edited by Sputterduck
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