Illegal immigrants vs undocumented immigrants

[Sputterduck]

So in this case, two wrongs make a right? Interesting. ;)

 

No. Not really. But we really can't get all high on our horse when our prosperity is largely due to our ancestors' deplorable actions.

[pqr]

Yes I do. And no, they don't. Compare those to the cost of incarcerating legal citizens. Both cost a lot. We jail more of our own, though! It's not like our own citizens are beacons of morality and good citizenship.

 

 

However, you would not believe the death toll in Mexico due to the drug trafficking in Mexico. It's far higher than that in America, and poor Mexico is only a thoroughfare. Americans are the consumers bringing about all the drug trade violence.

 

 

Here you are another GAO report.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05646r.pdf

 

The briefing slides in enclosure I address each of our three questions. In

summary, for our study population of 55,322 illegal aliens, we found that:

 

• They were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8

arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-eight

percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent (about

18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11

or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after 1990.

 

 

 

• They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses,

averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may

include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one

and half times more offenses than arrests.

 

 

Almost all of these illegal aliens

were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322

illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses. About 45 percent of all

offenses were drug or immigration offenses. About 15 percent were

property-related offenses such as burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle

theft, and property damage. About 12 percent were for violent offenses

such as murder, robbery, assault, and sex-related crimes. The balance was

for such other offenses as traffic violations, including driving under the

influence; fraud—including forgery and counterfeiting; weapons

violations; and obstruction of justice.

 

 

 

 

 

I will see if I can find a straight comparison, every statistic I have seen says that they are far more likely to commit a crime. Remember thay are 100% guilty of illegally crossing our border.

 

 

 

 

Even were they less likely to be criminals which they are not, the fact that the government has spent billions on incarcerating them, that they are arrested multiple times that there are dead Americans BECAUSE of their presence should persualde everyone that it simply is not worth it.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2011 by pqr

[Sputterduck]

PQR, well of course they were arrested. Most of those arrested, it says, were due to being illegal (duh) or for drugs (which I am NOT including in my defense). Those in the drug trade don't belong here, or anywhere else for that matter!

 

Take anyone involved in the drug trade out, and show me crimes committed against others by people coming here out of love for their families, and then we can talk.

[Mejane]

No. Not really. But we really can't get all high on our horse when our prosperity is largely due to our ancestors' deplorable actions.

 

I guess you can call it what you will, but I prefer to think of it as trying to do what's right for the country at present. We can't change the past (if only!), but that doesn't mean we have to allow things that are happening now to continue out of some sort of ill-placed guilt.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Mejane

[pqr]

PQR, well of course they were arrested. Most of those arrested, it says, were due to being illegal (duh) or for drugs (which I am NOT including in my defense). Those in the drug trade don't belong here, or anywhere else for that matter!

 

Take anyone involved in the drug trade out, and show me crimes committed against others by people coming here out of love for their families, and then we can talk.

 

How many Americans being murdered by illegals is acceptable?

How many billions of dollars in cost is acceptable?

How much misery in this nation caused by illegals is acceptable?

 

When do we say enough?

 

How do you separate those who break our laws for familial reasons and those who do not? How much should be spent?

 

You are attempting to argue that none of the crimes they engage in should be held against them, that the dollars do not matter, that the cost to this nation should not be looked at, that the impact on OUR health system is irrelevant and that simply does not fly.

 

I have found stats for you, now you show me where that are not a causal factor in crime. Show me how they do not cost billions. Your turn.

Edited January 8, 2011 by pqr

[Laurie4b]

So in this case, two wrongs make a right? Interesting. ;)

 

No--that is missing the point. The point is about the attitude and lack of reflection about how those of us who are "legal" got that way. It doesn't behoove us then to condemn those who are entering illegally. I think it's actually an interesting question to ask what a moral way is to determine who owns what land around the world, kwim? And if it is the descendants of Europeans speaking primarily about the descendants of Native Americans who were ravaged, the moral irony is pretty profound.

 

There remains then the question of what would be fair immigration laws. I believe that our laws are causing much of the problem. To put it into pure economic terms, our laws are artificially restricting the importing of "goods and services" that many people in our economy want and benefit from in the form of cheap labor. Imo, it functions like prohibition. Prohibition, not alcohol, was responsible for the rise of organized crime because people wanted the goods. If there was not a demand for more of product of "cheap labor" than current immigration laws allow, then there wouldn't have been the flourishing of the organized crime groups that are now primarily responsible for meeting that demand and getting people across the US border. (Not to mention our demand for drugs--but that is another discussion.) Once that situation is created, it is easy for the criminal elements to blend in with the far greater number of otherwise law-abiding people who just want a job and a future for their family and would have chosen to immigrate legally if that was possible. If our laws allowed a number closer to the actual demand in the US to immigrate legally, it would dry up much of the business of the really scary bad guys. Instead, that has skyrocketed.

 

What is good for our country is laws that are fair and honest about the reality of the demand for unskilled/low-skilled labor.

 

I would not want to be in the position of deciding whether to break a border-crossing law or watch my children suffer. Heck, I break traffic laws "just a little bit" getting them to activities on time.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Laurie4b

[Sputterduck]

How many Americans being murdered by illegals is acceptable?

How many billions of dollars in cost is acceptable?

How much misery in this nation caused by illegals is acceptable?

 

When do we say enough?

 

How do you separate those who break our laws for familial reasons and those who do not? How much should be spent?

 

How many Americans being murdered by Americans is acceptable?

How many billions of dollars is acceptable?

How much misery in this nation caused by citizens is acceptable?

When do we say enough?

 

What you need to realize is that there are desperate people who come here to escape things you cannot imagine. People who are very much like you. They bleed the same blood. They feel the same way about their babies that you do. They want safety and happiness, just like you do. THOSE people. Those people who are just like you on the inside are who I am talking about. I am not talking about the hardened drug criminals that make up your stats.

[pqr]

How many Americans being murdered by Americans is acceptable?

How many billions of dollars is acceptable?

How much misery in this nation caused by citizens is acceptable?

When do we say enough?

 

What you need to realize is that there are desperate people who come here to escape things you cannot imagine. People who are very much like you. They bleed the same blood. They feel the same way about their babies that you do. They want safety and happiness, just like you do. THOSE people. Those people who are just like you on the inside are who I am talking about. I am not talking about the hardened drug criminals that make up your stats.

 

They may have the same feelings as I, but they are not like me in one area. I am a LEGAL immigrant. I waited to get into this nation, I left "Hell on Earth" to come here, I obey her laws and I take great umbrage at someone who breaks the law to come here.

 

As to "you cannot imagine" what happens in other nations......you know not of what you speak, I have no need to imagine, I have seen it.

Edited January 8, 2011 by pqr

[Mejane]

I would not want to be in the position of deciding whether to break a border-crossing law or watch my children suffer. Heck, I break traffic laws "just a little bit" getting them to activities on time.

 

I'm not saying I wouldn't do the same were I in that position. However, it still doesn't make it right, and I wouldn't expect people to welcome me with open arms.

 

I bend the traffic laws occasionally myself. ;)

[Laurie4b]

I'm not saying I wouldn't do the same were I in that position. However, it still doesn't make it right, and I wouldn't expect people to welcome me with open arms.

 

I bend the traffic laws occasionally myself. ;)

 

I don't think it's right. It may be the best of the moral choices available to them, however--sometimes one chooses the lesser of evils. I know dozens of illegal aliens and all of them would have chosen to come legally if they could. (That doesn't mean there are not criminal ones--there certainly are.) They all work extremely hard and interestingly, we let them pay taxes and they do. (You can get a tax identification number if you are illegal)

 

What is of most concern to me is what I should do. I am very concerned about the synergistic effect of our 1) demand for illegal drugs, which are imported by drug cartels through Central America and Mexico and 2) our demand for cheap labor which is bottle-necked by too-restrictive legal means of immigration resulting in the import of labor by drug cartels. What is going on in our neighboring country is scary--and should scare every American just for self-interest even if not for compassion's sake. Our demand/$$ is feeding the really scary bad guys and they are getting stronger and stronger and stronger. We are getting more than a taste of this in our border states, but it's only going to get worse. Justice in our immigration laws would be more likely to give us security. I am concerned that it may already be too late.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Laurie4b

[Sputterduck]

They may have the same feelings as I, but they are not like me in one area. I am a LEGAL immigrant. I waited to get into this nation, I left "Hell on Earth" to come here, I obey her laws and I take great umbrage at someone who breaks the law to come here.

 

As to "you cannot imagine" what happens in other nations......you know not of what you speak, I have no need to imagine, I have seen it.

 

Where did you come from?

 

How did you learn to read and write? The people I work with are not allowed in school. How did you get enough money to apply at all?

[Elaine]

Where did you come from?

 

How did you learn to read and write? The people I work with are not allowed in school. How did you get enough money to apply at all?

 

Are you an American living in Mexico? Are you a missionary? Or something like it?

 

I am asking earnestly, I really want to know.

[Random]

You might want to dredge up some statistics on how many murders are committed by illegals vs how many are committed by citizens.

 

The people I work with are extremely non-violent. They love their children. Their children are wonderful and basically little adults capable of caring for newborns at 6 years old. They all work their behinds off from sun up to sun down and would be a great compliment to the American work force.

 

You appear to be quite the fan of rhetoric, and very easily moved by fear mongering.

 

I understand what you're saying, and I apologize if I sounded like a fearmonger. These are actual situations I know about personally, and from what I understand, they are not isolated. I also know some illegals who are nonviolent and hardworking.

 

I was unable to find the news article that showed the barbed wire school in the southern AZ desert, but it was fortified for protection against violent illegals coming across the border, who had repeatedly assaulted the students and faculty there.

 

Here are some news articles:

Crime higher in border states:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/29/border-states-dealing-illegal-immigrant-crime-data-suggests/

This one is about the rancher who was killed:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/27/national-guard-troops-wont-help-border-security-residents-say/

Violent crime surges in Texas:

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=75585

Info about the AZ/Mexico border:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/07/new-website-draw-attention-trash-arizona-mexico-border/

Wikipedia (I know, not that reliable...) has an interesting breakdown on crime committed by illegals, too.

The public school thing: (I just googled "Illegal immigration effect on public education")

http://www.examiner.com/public-schools-in-mesa/illegal-immigration-and-the-effect-on-arizona-s-classrooms

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters51f8

 

Crime is committed by legal and illegal immigrants and citizens. However, criminal activity by illegal immigrants is a huge problem. And crime appears to be disproportionately committed by people entering this country illegally.

[Mejane]

I am very concerned about the synergistic effect of our 1) demand for illegal drugs, which are imported by drug cartels through Central America and Mexico and 2) our demand for cheap labor which is bottle-necked by too-restrictive legal means of immigration resulting in the import of labor by drug cartels.

 

I have those same concerns, and I agree the flow of immigrants is related to them. I blame our government and the government of Mexico, not the people trying to make the best of a bad situation. I actually have great pity for them.

[pqr]

Where did you come from?

 

How did you learn to read and write? The people I work with are not allowed in school. How did you get enough money to apply at all?

 

 

A place where law was only for the lucky, a place where to apply (at that time) took years.

 

So let me get this straight you now advocate that we allow large numbers of illiterates into this nation as well. Our PS system is a disaster and you would introduce non-English speakers who can not read into the system?

Where does it stop?

 

I still await your stats to show that they are not likely to engage in crime. and which counter the links from Random.

Edited January 8, 2011 by pqr

[Sputterduck]

I don't think it's right. It may be the best of the moral choices available to them, however. What is of most concern to me is what I should do. I am very concerned about the synergistic effect of our 1) demand for illegal drugs, which are imported by drug cartels through Central America and Mexico and 2) our demand for cheap labor which is bottle-necked by too-restrictive legal means of immigration resulting in the import of labor by drug cartels. What is going on in our neighboring country is scary--and should scare every American just for self-interest. Our demand/$$ is feeding the really scary bad guys and they are getting stronger and stronger and stronger. We are getting more than a taste of this in our border states, but it's only going to get worse. Justice in our immigration laws would be more likely to give us security. I am concerned that it may already be too late.

 

I blame it all on the drug cartels.

 

Those people are very, very scary. Those people are entering our country illegally, sure, but they are a totally different thing than an illegal immigrant coming out of desperation.

 

I would love for our laws to be changed to let in people who would be a boon to our country. The people down here who work so hard for so little would we a wonderful addition to our country. *sigh* But people all want to focus on what drug-trade-illegals do. It's sad and there is no comparison between the two sets of people. But people don't care. They want to see only the most awful things and they want to apply it to everyone who comes here.

[Laurie4b]

I understand what you're saying, and I apologize if I sounded like a fearmonger. These are actual situations I know about personally, and from what I understand, they are not isolated. I also know some illegals who are nonviolent and hardworking.

 

I was unable to find the news article that showed the barbed wire school in the southern AZ desert, but it was fortified for protection against violent illegals coming across the border, who had repeatedly assaulted the students and faculty there.

 

Here are some news articles:

Crime higher in border states:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/29/border-states-dealing-illegal-immigrant-crime-data-suggests/

This one is about the rancher who was killed:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/27/national-guard-troops-wont-help-border-security-residents-say/

Violent crime surges in Texas:

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=75585

Info about the AZ/Mexico border:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/07/new-website-draw-attention-trash-arizona-mexico-border/

Wikipedia (I know, not that reliable...) has an interesting breakdown on crime committed by illegals, too.

The public school thing: (I just googled "Illegal immigration effect on public education")

http://www.examiner.com/public-schools-in-mesa/illegal-immigration-and-the-effect-on-arizona-s-classrooms

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters51f8

 

Crime is committed by legal and illegal immigrants and citizens. However, criminal activity by illegal immigrants is a huge problem. And crime appears to be disproportionately committed by people entering this country illegally.

 

I think what you'll find is that crime is disproportionately committed by criminals. I don't mean that snarkily at all. By keeping our openings for legal immigration way below the demand for the cheap unskilled or low-skill labor we want, we create a situation much like Prohibition. The people who move in and give us what we want are elements of organized crime. Just as it grew during Prohibition, so it is growing exponentially now. Personally, I think a similar fix to what we did after Prohibition is called for--we allowed alchohol to be legal again, thus undercutting the income for organized crime that had been delivering the illegal alcohol. Setting legal immigration quotos so that they are commensurate with demand should have a similar effect (though the whole situation is complicated by the US consumption of drugs--controlled by the same organized crime syndicates) . If there was no demand--if there were no jobs--there would not be an influx of people who wanted to work in those jobs. There is demand, so there will be an influx to meet it. It's up to us whether the influx is legal or whether we want to continue to let the cartels handle it. I believe that that is where the criminal element is really coming in .

[Sputterduck]

A place where few could read a place where law was only for the lucky, a place where to apply (at that time) took years.

 

So let me get this straight you now advocate that we allow large numbers of illiterates into this nation as well. Our PS system is a disaster and you would introduce non-English speakers who can not read into the system?

Where does it stop?

 

I still await your stats to show that they are not likely to engage in crime. and which counter the links from Random.

 

Sure. I'm one person and I'm teaching them how to read and speak English. It's not hard. They are quite intelligent.

 

My friend teaches their children how to read English and Spanish. Their children are intelligent as well. It's not hard.

 

Our PS system *is* quite a disaster. That's a whole 'nother story. It can't save our current population. I have nothing to offer in that area. It's going to fail us whether or not we are more compassionate to people wanting to come here.

 

I don't think anyone has taken stats separating those who come here to escape suffering vs those who come here for the drug trade. Common sense will tell you there is a difference. They don't engage in murder or drug trafficking here (in Latin America), so I don't think they will when given the opportunity for a job, either.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Sputterduck

[Laurie4b]

A place where law was only for the lucky, a place where to apply (at that time) took years.

 

.

 

What country was that?

[Sputterduck]

By the way, I don't need the Mexican public school system to teach me how to get along in this country. I'm quite fine learning on my own. So is my son. Immersion does wonders for that! If a motivated person comes to America they'll learn all the English they want, public school system aside.

[Elaine]

What country was that?

 

I think that my dear pal pqr was being cryptic for a reason.;)

[pqr]

What country was that?

 

A place far away, and I will leave it at that.

[Mrs Mungo]

I understand what you're saying, and I apologize if I sounded like a fearmonger. These are actual situations I know about personally, and from what I understand, they are not isolated. I also know some illegals who are nonviolent and hardworking.

<snip>

Crime is committed by legal and illegal immigrants and citizens. However, criminal activity by illegal immigrants is a huge problem. And crime appears to be disproportionately committed by people entering this country illegally.

 

I guess I am confused about what sort of discussion we are having.

 

I am the product of Native American and immigrant intermarriage. Race relations are a touchy subject because it isn't ancient history, it is extremely recent history. I know people in Oklahoma who are my parents' age (my dad is not quite 60) who were violently removed from reservations as children, beaten if they used their native languages, "adopted" by people who left them in missionary schools and had their mineral rights and tribal lands stolen by those absentee "parents." These crimes against humanity (though perfectly legal) were not perpetrated by some distant ancestor, but by people who are still walking around free.

 

But let's leave that aside, because it really has nothing to do with solving our current problems.

 

Are illegals statistically more likely to commit crimes? How would you even track those who are hardworking and stay under the radar? If some are more likely to commit crimes-why is that? Because it is hard for them to get and keep employment and a place to live.

 

So, is the question how we treat them or how we solve the problems? I am more interested in problem solving. If you design amnesty programs for hardworking people who have been in this country for years under the radar, then it's easier to catch the people who are genuinely a problem.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Mrs Mungo
Crazy phone self correct

[Sputterduck]

I would love for there to be an amnesty program for those who came to America and then worked their arses off under the radar for years! We need those kind of people. I've seen many examples of that. People like to dehumanize those people, but they are human! And they do work hard. And they do do everything in their power to give more to their children.

[MSNative]

A place far away, and I will leave it at that.

 

But could we guess? Pretty Quiet Russian? Persian Quiet Reader? Perfect Qatar-an Runner? :)

 

 

Mrs. Mungo - excellent question. Are we discussing which laws should be enforced, how to solve the problem or how to treat people or simply what to call a certain group of people?

[tex-mex]

I blame it all on the drug cartels.

 

Those people are very, very scary. Those people are entering our country illegally, sure, but they are a totally different thing than an illegal immigrant coming out of desperation.

Oh yeah. My in-laws live in Southern NM -- 30 miles from the Mexico border. Rumors in their small town are that Drug Lords have moved operations from Mexico into a town south of them (5 minutes from the border) and they live quite nicely in US while their human "mules" bring in the drugs. 14 bodies were found in the border town near them -- word on the street is not to go to Palomas, Chihuahua, Mexico. So sad. We used to go across the border all of the time for dentist care and a great restaurant. Now Palomas is a ghost town when we went there a few weeks ago.

 

I would love for our laws to be changed to let in people who would be a boon to our country. The people down here who work so hard for so little would we a wonderful addition to our country. *sigh* But people all want to focus on what drug-trade-illegals do. It's sad and there is no comparison between the two sets of people. But people don't care. They want to see only the most awful things and they want to apply it to everyone who comes here.

 

:iagree: I agree that there are two different demographics most of us do not take into consideration. I used to be a schoolteacher in Southern CA working in an inner city (Title I) school with the majority of students being children of immigrants. My weekly letter home to parents used to have to be translated in Spanish, Vietnamese, Thai, and Korean. Crime was horrible and we were told to get out of the school by 4pm due to the gangs in the area. That was back in 1991. ;)

 

I found the students to be a "sieve" of amazing wonders, more respectful at the elementary age compared to others in poor/rural areas (I also used to teach in the Mojave Desert), and tho' it took time for them to learn (no different from a special needs or mild LD student) -- by 3rd grade, they were bilingual. Culturally, they rode the fence with trying to stay in school being in wishes with family who wanted to see them succeed versus the "outside" influence of peers via gangs, drugs, drop-out mentality, teen pregnancy, etc. Those who did graduate found themselves caught in a pit with not being able to go onto college due to not having legal citizenship and thus working in McDonalds or a hourly wage with illegal ID or under the table. But that is a different thread -- a la the DREAM Act. I do know of a few students who went to college as an illegal immigrant via the generousity of private donors who paid in full their education. No taxpayers paid for them.

Edited January 8, 2011 by tex-mex

[Sputterduck]

But could we guess? Pretty Quiet Russian? Persian Quiet Reader? Perfect Qatar-an Runner? :)

 

:lol:

 

I know he doesn't have to answer, but dang it leaves everyone curious!

 

I know he wasn't the bottom of the bottom wherever he was, because those people don't get to come to America. You need to have money and be literate. Most people are sponsored by companies who needs them, right? Those people are educated. There are also the short term agriculture jobs, but those don't offer citizenship at the end, right?

 

The educated people here treat the lower class as if they are lower than dirt, I kid you not. I don't know if that was the case wherever he was from. It does worry me that maybe that is where his lack of compassion comes from.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

The other problem in all of this of course is that we are giving prefferential treatment to those who are illegal and happen to be from a country geographically close enough to walk across a border. There are many people that would love to come here from other countries that are much more distant and would need a visa to even board the plane. Many of them try to come here legally and are denied. Many of them are willing to take those same low paying, menial labor jobs. Why are folks geographically closer to us any more special than those across an ocean?

 

The answer-they aren't. Illegal is illegal.

[Sputterduck]

Oh yeah. My in-laws live in Southern NM -- 30 miles from the Mexico border. Rumors in their small town are that Drug Lords have moved operations from Mexico into a town south of them (5 minutes from the border) and they live quite nicely in US while their human "mules" bring in the drugs. 14 bodies were found in the border town near them -- word on the street is not to go to Palomas, Chihuahua, Mexico. So sad. We used to go across the border all of the time for dentist care and a great restaurant. Now Palomas is a ghost town when we went there a few weeks ago.

 

I'm so sorry that is near where they live. So scary. It is in the back of my mind even though I live in a safe place. I've got guards here, though. I've got military stops. Police are everywhere here. I'm so lucky. So many places have no protection.

 

I have no solution to the drug trafficking problem. When the government cracks down, they only murder more people. They have so much power. :(

[pqr]

:lol:

 

I know he doesn't have to answer, but dang it leaves everyone curious!

 

I know he wasn't the bottom of the bottom wherever he was, because those people don't get to come to America. You need to have money and be literate. Most people are sponsored by companies who needs them, right? Those people are educated. There are also the short term agriculture jobs, but those don't offer citizenship at the end, right?

 

The educated people here treat the lower class as if they are lower than dirt, I kid you not. I don't know if that was the case wherever he was from. It does worry me that maybe that is where his lack of compassion comes from.

 

Wrong is just about every assumption. Thousand of refugees from VietNam came here, there are Somalis here, there are many here from the bottom strata so....as I said wrong in just about every assumption.

 

Anyway as to your "statistics" your argument is now: if I understand, that law abiding people do not engage in crime so it is not fair to include drug runners, rapists, murderers, thieves, etc into the greater mass of ILLEGAL aliens. Beyond the fact that they are ILLEGAL if you only look to those who engage in no FURTHER crime then of course the stats will say what you want.

 

Reality is that ILLEGALS engage in crime on an industrial scale and that we have dead Americans because of the presence here of ILLEGALS.

 

Were the borders secure these people would, in all probability, be alive. That is FACT just as the FACT is that if you are not in this nation legally you are a CRIMINAL.

[Sputterduck]

The other problem in all of this of course is that we are giving prefferential treatment to those who are illegal and happen to be from a country geographically close enough to walk across a border. There are many people that would love to come here from other countries that are much more distant and would need a visa to even board the plane. Many of them try to come here legally and are denied. Many of them are willing to take those same low paying, menial labor jobs. Why are folks geographically closer to us any more special than those across an ocean?

 

The answer-they aren't. Illegal is illegal.

 

Some of them do come. There was a boatload of Chinese people let off here before my time. They were left to run for it to save themselves, and then, if they could, cross into America. I kid you not, there was suddenly a storm of Chinese people running down the road.

 

Bringing in cheap labor isn't cheap if you need to transport people across the world. Cheap labor is about being cheap.

 

But, yes, there are people in need all over the world. I hope God makes me Bill Gates rich so I can save them all. I would, too, if I could. It hurts me every day that I can't do more.

[My3Boys]

Sure you can go back and forth on it. I was just brining up the "heart" issue we "should" (said hesitantly as not all believe in the scriptures, but sometimes they have a better grasp of the law of love anyway).

 

The legality doesn't change how we should treat them.

 

Treating them with kindness while they are in this country doesn't mean they should be allowed to continue to stay here and get away with ignoring our laws.

[Sputterduck]

Wrong is just about every assumption. Thousand of refugees from VietNam came here, there are Somalis here, there are many here from the bottom strata so....as I said wrong in just about every assumption.

 

Anyway as to your "statistics" your argument is now: if I understand, that law abiding people do not engage in crime so it is not fair to include drug runners, rapists, murderers, thieves, etc into the greater mass of ILLEGAL aliens. Beyond the fact that they are ILLEGAL if you only look to those who engage in no FURTHER crime then of course the stats will say what you want.

 

Reality is that ILLEGALS engage in crime on an industrial scale and that we have dead Americans because of the presence here of ILLEGALS.

 

Were the borders secure these people would, in all probability, be alive. That is FACT just as the FACT is that if you are not in this nation legally you are a CRIMINAL.

 

Have you ever sped? Does that put you on the same level as murderers?

[Sputterduck]

Thousand of refugees from VietNam came here, there are Somalis here, there are many here from the bottom strata

 

In what way would those people today be able to go to America?

[pqr]

Bringing in cheap labor isn't cheap if you need to transport people across the world. Cheap labor is about being cheap.

 

 

 

Actually transport costs are negligible.

[Audrey]

Wrong is just about every assumption. Thousand of refugees from VietNam came here, there are Somalis here, there are many here from the bottom strata so....as I said wrong in just about every assumption.

 

.

 

 

Just to clarify... are you speaking of "here" as the European country where you say you are now, or are you using "here" metaphorically, or what?

[pqr]

Have you ever sped? Does that put you on the same level as murderers?

 

 

Are you actually being serious? In most nations crossing international borders without papers is a major offense. there are a few hikers who went too close to Iran who could attest to that little fact.

[My3Boys]

You do understand that few of the people who try to go through proper channels are actually let into the country, right? And it takes years. That doesn't solve the dying children problem. Often going through proper channels is not a third option. It is truly sometimes a question of follow the law or let your kids die. Option A: escape your country illegally Option B: let your kids die

 

Also, how do you expect people who can't read or write and have no money to even have the slightest clue about "proper channels" and how to navigate them?

 

If they don't understand that what they are doing is illegal, then why do they not attempt to cross the border at legal border crossings instead of sneaking in? Because they know very well what they are doing is against the law.

[pqr]

Just to clarify... are you speaking of "here" as the European country where you say you are now, or are you using "here" metaphorically, or what?

 

"here" as in Europe, Canada or the States

[Sputterduck]

Are you actually being serious? In most nations crossing international borders without papers is a major offense. there are a few hikers who went too close to Iran who could attest to that little fact.

 

I am saying that one crime does not mean you will commit unspeakable acts against humanity. For some reason you think that committing a crime that hurts no one in an act of desperation means that you will go on to commit cold blooded murder and other terrifying acts.

[Mrs Mungo]

Are you actually being serious? In most nations crossing international borders without papers is a major offense. there are a few hikers who went too close to Iran who could attest to that little fact.

 

Seriously? Actions by the US military is what puts such hikers in danger. They were accused of being spies. They weren't accused of being illegal immigrants Apples and oranges.

[Sputterduck]

If they don't understand that what they are doing is illegal, then why do they not attempt to cross the border at legal border crossings instead of sneaking in? Because they know very well what they are doing is against the law.

 

When did I say they do not know? The people I am speaking about have never seen the internet or a government office in their life. They would have no clue how to even start in on the proper channels. They don't even speak the predominant language in their own country, much less know how to contact the proper government office. Even if they could somehow find and then get transport to the proper government office, they have no paperwork making them a citizen of their own country. They cannot get a passport. They can't even speak enough Spanish to ask how to even start on the proper channels.

 

These people DO NOT have the option to use proper channels. People who say "Why don't they just wait their time and do it legally" have no idea in the world what they are talking about.

[pqr]

I am saying that one crime does not mean you will commit unspeakable acts against humanity. For some reason you think that committing a crime that hurts no one in an act of desperation means that you will go on to commit cold blooded murder and other terrifying acts.

 

 

The impact of illegals through crime, government costs etc DOES hurt this nation. Look to the facts not the desires.

[Sputterduck]

The impact of illegals through crime, government costs etc DOES hurt this nation. Look to the facts not the desires.

 

The impact of illegal immigrants who are here for crime is bad. No one disagrees with that. You are sweeping a single brush over everyone who comes here and it is unfair.

 

Are you in Europe or America?

[pqr]

Seriously? Actions by the US military is what puts such hikers in danger. They were accused of being spies. They weren't accused of being illegal immigrants Apples and oranges.

 

They were arrested for crossing the border, the spy thing was just icing.

 

Try crossing into China and see what happens. Try into Russia.

[Mrs Mungo]

They were arrested for crossing the border, the spy thing was just icing.

 

Try crossing into China and see what happens. Try into Russia.

 

Hm, I thought you were against communism and totalitarian governments. Are you suggesting that the US should emulate them?

[Audrey]

"here" as in Europe, Canada or the States

 

 

Okay. But... that's confusing the issues a bit, IMO. Immigration issues aren't the same in those three areas. Immigration looks quite a bit different in Canada than it does in the States (I can't speak for Europe, let alone all the countries in it -- never lived there). There are issues in Canadian immigration, yes, but not nearly the same issues as the US has.

 

Again... just speaking for clarity's sake. I don't think it's accurate to paint all immigration in Europe, Canada and the US with the same broad brush. FWIW, I don't really have a dog in the fight if the discussion is regarding US immigration. Global immigration, in general -- that's a different story. I am one. My opinion is naturally coloured by that fact.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Audrey
To clarify myself further.

[cdrumm4448]

OK. I have a question. Instead of debating what to call people who come here from other countries illegally, or what to do with them once they're here, why doesn't anyone ever bring up the responsibility of the government of the country these people are fleeing?

 

Does the US hold the president of Mexico responsible for his obvious distaste and irresponsibility for his country's own lower class? What would/could that look like?

[tex-mex]

I'm so sorry that is near where they live. So scary. It is in the back of my mind even though I live in a safe place. I've got guards here, though. I've got military stops. Police are everywhere here. I'm so lucky. So many places have no protection.

 

I have no solution to the drug trafficking problem. When the government cracks down, they only murder more people. They have so much power. :(

:iagree: In Palomas a few years back, the Police Chief came across the US Border and asked for amnesty from ICE -- he did this as death threats by local drug lords were coming. For a while, Palomas had no police as officials left for fear of their lives or a few were killed. Every time I go there, my heart breaks for those merchants losing $$ from tourists, citizens living in fear, and others who have no choice but to stay and try to avoid the madness.

 

ETA: Just read in local Deming & Las Cruces, NM papers that immigrants (legal with papers) are leaving Cuidad Juarez by droves into El Paso to escape the violence. El Paso is happy as new residents move into foreclosures and apartment rentals -- over 3,000 in the last quarter alone. Don't blame them one bit. For those who do not have legal papers, we know how they are trying to flee the violence.

Edited January 8, 2011 by tex-mex

[Laurie4b]

From a US GAO report. http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05337r.html

 

* At the federal level, the number of criminal aliens incarcerated

increased from about 42,000 at the end of calendar year 2001 to about

49,000 at the end of calendar year 2004--a 15 percent increase. The

percentage of all federal prisoners who are criminal aliens has

remained the same over the last 3 years--about 27 percent. The majority

of criminal aliens incarcerated at the end of calendar year 2004 were

identified as citizens of Mexico. We estimate the federal cost of

incarcerating criminal aliens--BOP's cost to incarcerate criminals and

reimbursements to state and local governments under SCAAP--totaled

approximately $5.8 billion for calendar years 2001 through 2004. BOP's

cost to incarcerate criminal aliens rose from about $950 million in

2001 to about $1.2 billion in 2004--a 14 percent increase. Federal

reimbursements for incarcerating criminal aliens in state prisons and

local jails declined from $550 million in 2001 to $280 million in 2004,

in a large part due to a reduction in congressional appropriations.

 

* At the state level, the 50 states received reimbursement for

incarcerating about 77,000 criminal aliens in fiscal year 2002 and 47

states received reimbursement for incarcerating about 74,000 in fiscal

year 2003.[Footnote 1] For the 5 states incarcerating about 80 percent

of these criminal aliens in fiscal year 2003, [Footnote 2] about 68

percent incarcerated in midyear 2004 reported that the country of

citizenship or country of birth as Mexico, the Dominican Republic, or

Cuba. We estimate that 4 of these 5 states spent about $1.6 billion to

incarcerate criminal aliens reimbursed through SCAAP during fiscal

years 2002 and 2003.[Footnote 3] We estimate that the federal

government reimbursed these four states about 25 percent or less of the

estimated cost to incarcerate these criminal aliens in fiscal years

2002 and 2003.

 

* At the local level, in fiscal year 2002, SCAAP reimbursed about 750

local governments for incarcerating about 138,000 criminal aliens. In

fiscal year 2003, SCAAP reimbursed about 700 local governments for

about 147,000 criminal aliens, with 5 local jail systems[Footnote 4]

accounting for about 30 percent of these criminal aliens. The 147,000

criminal aliens incarcerated during fiscal year 2003 spent a total of

about 8.5 million days in jail. Mexico leads as the country of birth

for foreign-born arrestees at these 5 local jails in fiscal year 2003.

We estimate that 4 of these 5 local jails spent an estimated $390

million in fiscal years 2002 and 2003 to incarcerate criminal aliens

and were reimbursed about $73 million through SCAAP. We estimate that

the federal government reimbursed these localities about 25 percent or

less of the estimated criminal alien incarceration cost in fiscal years

2002 and 2003.

 

 

Do you really want the stats on violent crime as they sink your argument quite handily?

 

I think there may be some confusion here. This report looks like it is about criminals who are also illegal aliens, not about illegal aliens as a group. We don't arrest and imprison for border crossing--we deport them. This report looks to me as if it's about the people who have committed additional crimes. There is no question but that the drug cartels that run both drugs and labor across the border are a dangerous problem and we are endangered because of the growth of that element. I believe, however, that our current overly restrictive immigration laws contribute to the rise of the criminal element.

 

Imo, that is a separate issue from people who cross the border to provide for their families, and who would do so legally if that route were available to them. However our policies on immigrants who are unskilled or low-skilled mean that that legal door just doesn't exist for them.

 

I believe our immigration policies are exacerbating the problem with the drug cartels and no amount of "cracking down" on those who come to work will dry up the supply for the drug cartels as long as demand for that labor exists in the US. If we opened our policies to allow immigration commensurate with demand, I believe we'd see real change--or that we would have had we done it 5-10 years ago. I am very concerned about the power the drug cartels have acquired in the meantime. Obviously, the demand for illegal drugs in the US also feeds the problem.