Illegal immigrants vs undocumented immigrants

[Sputterduck]

OK. I have a question. Instead of debating what to call people who come here from other countries illegally, or what to do with them once they're here, why doesn't anyone ever bring up the responsibility of the government of the country these people are fleeing?

 

Does the US hold the president of Mexico responsible for his obvious distaste and irresponsibility for his country's own lower class? What would/could that look like?

 

 

That's very complex, but also valid. I can't legally state an opinion on that, actually, as far as I understand the law. As a non-citizen here, I cannot engage in anything political.

 

I actually don't know what how the president here feels about the lower class. I guess we don't talk about it because we kind of can't.

 

I do know that there are those here who are trying to help. I also know that this government is more limited than the US with it's resources and is fighting a terrible battle to keep people alive against the drug cartels that is costing everything it can spare. I still blame American drug consumers for contributing to the deaths here. They are who finance the cartels.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Sputterduck

[Lolly]

The impact of illegal immigrants who are here for crime is bad. No one disagrees with that. You are sweeping a single brush over everyone who comes here and it is unfair.

 

Are you in Europe or America?

 

The impact of illegals who come here for cheap paying jobs hurts too. They may not be paid much; they may pay taxes, but they cost the government a lot more $ than they pay in. As a nation, we simply cannot afford to take on the monetary debt that it would require to allow open immigration. A legal immigrant would be allowed to access even more government sponsored programs than the illegal aliens have access to. It would be great to be able to solve the world's problems. America just isn't up to the task.

 

http://cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

[Laurie4b]

Here you are another GAO report.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05646r.pdf

 

The briefing slides in enclosure I address each of our three questions. In

summary, for our study population of 55,322 illegal aliens, we found that:

 

• They were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8

arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-eight

percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent (about

18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11

or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after 1990.

 

 

 

• They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses,

averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may

include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one

and half times more offenses than arrests.

 

 

Almost all of these illegal aliens

were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322

illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses. About 45 percent of all

offenses were drug or immigration offenses. About 15 percent were

property-related offenses such as burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle

theft, and property damage. About 12 percent were for violent offenses

such as murder, robbery, assault, and sex-related crimes. The balance was

for such other offenses as traffic violations, including driving under the

influence; fraud—including forgery and counterfeiting; weapons

violations; and obstruction of justice.

 

 

 

 

 

I will see if I can find a straight comparison, every statistic I have seen says that they are far more likely to commit a crime. Remember thay are 100% guilty of illegally crossing our border.

 

 

 

 

Even were they less likely to be criminals which they are not, the fact that the government has spent billions on incarcerating them, that they are arrested multiple times that there are dead Americans BECAUSE of their presence should persualde everyone that it simply is not worth it.

 

 

 

From the report

Subject: Information on Certain Illegal Aliens Arrested in the United

States (This is not on illegal aliens in general)

 

 

3An alien legally or illegally in the United States who has been convicted of a crime. (This is who the report is talking about.)

 

I am guessing if you found a study of US-born citizens who were incarcerated, you'd find similar info as "each one was arrested an average of 8 times." We're not talking about each illegal alien, we're talking about each criminal who is an illegal alien.

 

I agree the problem of the criminals associated with the drug cartels is huge.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Laurie4b

[tex-mex]

I still blame American drug consumers for contributing to the deaths here. They are who finance the cartels.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Don't get me started on that topic... that really makes me mad whenever I visit border towns in peril due to the drug lords fighting each other over territory. Meanwhile folks in the USA have no clue what their drug habit or addiction is causing in innocent lives. :glare:

[Laurie4b]

A place far away, and I will leave it at that.

 

Would you or your family be in danger if you answered that? I don't want to put you in a bad position, but would like to understand you better.

 

Did you emigrate as a child or an adult?

[Mrs Mungo]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Don't get me started on that topic... that really makes me mad whenever I visit border towns in peril due to the drug lords fighting each other over territory. Meanwhile folks in the USA have no clue what their drug habit or addiction is causing in innocent lives. :glare:

 

It costs the US a tremendous amount of military spending as well in Columbia, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

[tex-mex]

It costs the US a tremendous amount of military spending as well in Columbia, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Yup. I first thought due to the Columbian drug lords using Miami as a spot for their deeds in the 80's -- and the DEA putting an end to that -- would leave a CLEAR message to others (i.e. Sinaloa cartel and others) to not bring violence to the USA. But I fear it will happen. God bless those in the military fighting all over the world against this madness. No answer to any of this, that's for sure.

[Stacy in NJ]

I think immigration is a national blessing. Legal immigration, that is. Illegal immigration causes wage depression, crime, and poverty.

 

It is odd that this group wants to end "all immigration". Um, hello, when we landed here were we not interlopers? This land already HAD inhabitants! WE were the "Illegal Aliens", but now some people from our group wants to act like WE are sovereign?!

 

Unbelievable!

 

America has ALWAYS had an illegal immigration problem. Native Americans call it White People!

[Stacy in NJ]

disapproval of immigration altogether.

 

We definately need to revamp our immigration laws to allow lawful immigration. But illegal is illegal and it causes irreparable damage to our country. Having a class of Helot workers undermines wages for the working class.

[Mejane]

OK. I have a question. Instead of debating what to call people who come here from other countries illegally, or what to do with them once they're here, why doesn't anyone ever bring up the responsibility of the government of the country these people are fleeing?

 

 

 

I actually did that here:

 

I blame our government and the government of Mexico, not the people trying to make the best of a bad situation. I actually have great pity for them.

 

.

[Sputterduck]

The impact of illegals who come here for cheap paying jobs hurts too. They may not be paid much; they may pay taxes, but they cost the government a lot more $ than they pay in. As a nation, we simply cannot afford to take on the monetary debt that it would require to allow open immigration. A legal immigrant would be allowed to access even more government sponsored programs than the illegal aliens have access to. It would be great to be able to solve the world's problems. America just isn't up to the task.

 

http://cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

 

Say you come here illegally. Exactly how are you going to get on Welfare and Medicaid? You need to prove citizenship for that.

 

Don't schools also ask about citizenship?

 

Also, that link has some interesting things I didn't know like "Nonetheless, their impact on Social Security and Medicare is unambiguously positive."

 

Also, you can't count the cost that their citizen child makes unless you also count their contribution once they are adults in the workforce.

 

Also, that site is too biased for me. The say they have a "low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted."

Edited January 8, 2011 by Sputterduck

[Stacy in NJ]

Many public service professionals are discouraged from asking about status.

 

Say you come here illegally. Exactly how are you going to get on Welfare and Medicaid? You need to prove citizenship for that.

 

Don't schools also ask about citizenship?

 

Also, that link has some interesting things I didn't know like "Nonetheless, their impact on Social Security and Medicare is unambiguously positive."

 

Also, you can't count the cost that their citizen child makes unless you also count their contribution once they are adults in the workforce.

 

Also, that site is too biased for me. The say they have a "low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted."

 

Their impact on SS and medicare is positive if they pay in via a fake id but don't stay to collect in retirement. Many work completely off the books and don't pay in at all.

[Caroline]

Don't schools also ask about citizenship?

 

No, public schools do not ask about citizenship or immigration status.

[Sputterduck]

Many public service professionals are discouraged from asking about status.

 

Their impact on SS and medicare is positive if they pay in via a fake id but don't stay to collect in retirement. Many work completely off the books and don't pay in at all.

 

They *can't* collect retirement.

 

Also can you name a state that doesn't require you to be a citizen? I know, for sure, that California does. I went through the process with my ex-husband when he became disabled and lost his very nice job.

[Stacy in NJ]

They *can't* collect retirement.

 

Also can you name a state that doesn't require you to be a citizen? I know, for sure, that California does. I went through the process with my ex-husband when he became disabled and lost his very nice job.

 

Doesn't require you to be a citizen to what? to attend ps? to collect welfare? to receive medical treatment? Neither NY or NJ do.

[Sputterduck]

Doesn't require you to be a citizen to what? to attend ps? to collect welfare? to receive medical treatment? Neither NY or NJ do.

 

To receive public assistance.

[Sputterduck]

Doesn't require you to be a citizen to what? to attend ps? to collect welfare? to receive medical treatment? Neither NY or NJ do.

 

This is a list of links to help people understand how to get the documents they need for assisstance in NY.

 

"Birth Certificate (Individuals born in the five New York City Boroughs)

Birth Certificate (Individuals born in New York State, outside of the five New York City Boroughs)

Immunization Records

IRS Tax Return Information

Marriage Certificate (Married in the five New York City Boroughs)

Marriage Certificate (Married in New York State, outside of the five New York City Boroughs)

Naturalization Certificate

New York State Drivers License and Non-Driver Identification Card

New York State Unemployment Insurance

Pension (New York City)

Pension (New York State)

Permanent Resident Card (Green Card)

Proof of Social Security Income

School Records

Social Security Card

Utility Bill (ConEdison)

Utility Bill (National Grid – formerly Keyspan)

Utility Bill (LIPA)

Working Papers (New York City Department of Education)

Working Papers (New York State Department of Labor)"

 

https://a858-ihss.nyc.gov/ihss1/en_US/IHSS_requiredDocumentsHomePage.do?caseID=&__o3rpu=IHSS_homePage.do

[Mrs Mungo]

To receive public assistance.

 

The problem in some states is that there are kids of illegal immigrants who can receive assistance, even if the parents can't.

[Sputterduck]

The problem in some states is that there are kids of illegal immigrants who can receive assistance, even if the parents can't.

 

And those children grow up to be part of the workforce, who then are required to pay taxes. That is no different than any other child citizen who is on assistance.

[Stacy in NJ]

benefits of various kinds.

 

 

This is a list of links to help people understand how to get the documents they need for assisstance in NY.

 

"Birth Certificate (Individuals born in the five New York City Boroughs)

Birth Certificate (Individuals born in New York State, outside of the five New York City Boroughs)

Immunization Records

IRS Tax Return Information

Marriage Certificate (Married in the five New York City Boroughs)

Marriage Certificate (Married in New York State, outside of the five New York City Boroughs)

Naturalization Certificate

New York State Drivers License and Non-Driver Identification Card

New York State Unemployment Insurance

Pension (New York City)

Pension (New York State)

Permanent Resident Card (Green Card)

Proof of Social Security Income

School Records

Social Security Card

Utility Bill (ConEdison)

Utility Bill (National Grid – formerly Keyspan)

Utility Bill (LIPA)

Working Papers (New York City Department of Education)

Working Papers (New York State Department of Labor)"

 

https://a858-ihss.nyc.gov/ihss1/en_US/IHSS_requiredDocumentsHomePage.do?caseID=&__o3rpu=IHSS_homePage.do

[TravelingChris]

Yes as Stacy in NJ said, I don't know people who don't want any immigration. WHat we want is legal immigration (and I would like the immigration laws changed). But I see no reason why we would want to be bringing in illiterate, ignorant adults to our country that don't even speak the majority language of their own country well. Yes, it is sad that people in lots of places are poor. But I don't see what that has to do with our country needing to protect and defend our borders. I am incensed that a National Park that I visited about 8 years ago we can't go back and visit again. Does that mean that I think a National Park is more important than starving children? No, but it is not the responsibility of the US to feed the whole world. Mexico has lots of natural resources. There is no reason why the population couldn't be put to work and the country better developed. One of the world's richest men is Mexican. So if you think we should be doing something for Mexicans, I guess you think the US should be invading Mexico and getting rid of the corruption, the drug lords, the inefficient legal system, etc, etc. Can the US do a better job running it? Maybe but we have enough of a job running our own country. We also have enough of a job taking care of the 9.8% officially unemployed and the over 17% underemployed or unemployed but just not on unemployment roles. Doesn't seem like our country is in any shape to take over any other or to take the citizenry of any other into our own land.

[Sputterduck]

Doesn't require you to be a citizen to what? to attend ps? to collect welfare? to receive medical treatment? Neither NY or NJ do.

 

To get food stamps in NJ, you need to be a citizen or have legal immigrant papers.

 

http://www.state.nj.us/humanservices/dfd/programs/foodstamps/food_stamps_chklist.pdf

 

I could go on. Everything I check in NY and NJ says you must be a citizen or have come legally.

[Sputterduck]

Yes as Stacy in NJ said, I don't know people who don't want any immigration. WHat we want is legal immigration (and I would like the immigration laws changed). But I see no reason why we would want to be bringing in illiterate, ignorant adults to our country that don't even speak the majority language of their own country well. Yes, it is sad that people in lots of places are poor. But I don't see what that has to do with our country needing to protect and defend our borders. I am incensed that a National Park that I visited about 8 years ago we can't go back and visit again. Does that mean that I think a National Park is more important than starving children? No, but it is not the responsibility of the US to feed the whole world. Mexico has lots of natural resources. There is no reason why the population couldn't be put to work and the country better developed. One of the world's richest men is Mexican. So if you think we should be doing something for Mexicans, I guess you think the US should be invading Mexico and getting rid of the corruption, the drug lords, the inefficient legal system, etc, etc. Can the US do a better job running it? Maybe but we have enough of a job running our own country. We also have enough of a job taking care of the 9.8% officially unemployed and the over 17% underemployed or unemployed but just not on unemployment roles. Doesn't seem like our country is in any shape to take over any other or to take the citizenry of any other into our own land.

 

The Mexico I see is mostly mountain desert. What are all these resources you talk about?

 

No one ever said the US should save the world. I'm asking for compassion for those who come to the US to escape horrible conditions.

 

The Statue of Liberty no longer applies to America

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[Mejane]

The Mexico I see is mostly mountain desert. What are all these resources you talk about?

 

 

 

As far as national wealth, Mexico is the sixth largest producer of oil in the world, and in the top three supplying the US.

[Sputterduck]

As far as national wealth, Mexico is the sixth largest producer of oil in the world, and in the top three supplying the US.

 

Per capita, it's 28th.

[MSNative]

The Mexico I see is mostly mountain desert. What are all these resources you talk about?

 

No one ever said the US should save the world. I'm asking for compassion for those who come to the US to escape horrible conditions.

 

The Statue of Liberty no longer applies to America

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

 

Natural resources: Petroleum, silver, copper, gold, lead, zinc, natural gas, timber.

Industry (31% of GDP): Types--food and beverages, tobacco, chemicals, iron and steel, petroleum, mining, textiles, clothing, motor vehicles, consumer durables.

 

 

 

As far as getting services, a friend of mine is a school counselor in VA. She told me she spends most of her time helping illegal aliens get benefits. That is part of her job.

In all states illegal aliens can go to the ER and get free medical care. "In Arizona, at the Maricopa County Medical Center, an anchor baby is born every three hours. Two out of three births are to illegal aliens, 2,900 each year. It’s a huge part of the $28 million overall spent treating illegal aliens at just one hospital."

In most states, people just get fake id's and defraud the system that way.

 

I'm all for reforming immigration laws and charity and helping others and treating people with respect. However, breaking the law is breaking the law. If I speed, I can expect a ticket. Do it too often, I'll get my license taken away. Even if I'm a really good person. We have laws and ought to either enforce them or change them.

 

On a different note, have you seen what Mexico does to illegal aliens to its country?

 

The Mexican government will bar foreigners if they upset "the equilibrium of the national demographics."

 

-- If outsiders do not enhance the country's "economic or national interests" or are "not found to be physically or mentally healthy," they are not welcome. Neither are those who show "contempt against national sovereignty or security." They must not be economic burdens on society and must have clean criminal histories. Those seeking to obtain Mexican citizenship must show a birth certificate, provide a bank statement proving economic independence, pass an exam and prove they can provide their own health care.

-- Illegal entry into the country is equivalent to a felony punishable by two years' imprisonment. Document fraud is subject to fine and imprisonment; so is alien marriage fraud. Evading deportation is a serious crime; illegal re-entry after deportation is punishable by ten years' imprisonment. Foreigners may be kicked out of the country without due process.

[Hannah C.]

Don't schools also ask about citizenship?

 

 

Actually, there was a Supreme Court case, Plyler v. Doe, which struck down a TX law which allowed school districts to refuse to enroll or fund education for illegal immigrants. The Supreme Court cited the Fourteenth Amendment in its decision.

 

The Wikipedia article is here, but it says it needs more citations, so it may not be correct in all particulars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plyler_v._Doe

 

The text of the Supreme Court opinion/decision is here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0457_0202_ZO.html

 

I'm not sure how this works in practice, however. I just looked up the enrollment requirements for the school district I attended in TX, and they require proof of residence (e.g. utility bill) and a parent photo ID (e.g. passport, TX driver's license or state ID, military or government ID, or consular card), as well as a birth certificate or passport and visa to establish student identity, and the student's Social Security card. Obviously, an illegal immigrant would not have all those documents (besides possibly the utility bill).

 

ETA: Here is an article I found which goes more in depth about education and illegal immigrants: http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?ID=795

Edited January 9, 2011 by Hannah C.

[Sputterduck]

LMAO. I know the immigration rules to Mexico. I'm an Irish American living here.

 

Do you have *any* idea how easy it is to be here?

 

Many Americans live here just getting their FMT (now FMM), which is a tourist visa, every 6 months. It's so easy, it's insane.

 

I went in for my FM2, which after 5 years I can get my citizenship, and they want me to have enough income. Fine. They interview me. Fine. I have like one page to fill out and that's it.

[Mejane]

I went in for my FM2, which after 5 years I can get my citizenship, and they want me to have enough income. Fine. They interview me. Fine. I have like one page to fill out and that's it.

 

So Mexico has requirements for income? Yet the US is considered villainous if it puts any type of stipulation on whom may enter, or heaven forbid, desires that they enter legally so we know who is here. Please tell me you see the hypocrisy.

[Sputterduck]

So Mexico has requirements for income? Yet the US is considered villainous if it puts any type of stipulation on whom may enter, or heaven forbid, desires that they enter legally so we know who is here. Please tell me you see the hypocrisy.

 

No, just for the FM2 visa.

 

The FMM has none at all.

 

Who said the Mexico immigration system was one we should copy? Who said the US shouldn't know who is in the US? Who said there should be no system? Leap much?

[Lolly]

Say you come here illegally. Exactly how are you going to get on Welfare and Medicaid? You need to prove citizenship for that.

 

Don't schools also ask about citizenship?

 

Also, that link has some interesting things I didn't know like "Nonetheless, their impact on Social Security and Medicare is unambiguously positive."

 

Also, you can't count the cost that their citizen child makes unless you also count their contribution once they are adults in the workforce.

 

Also, that site is too biased for me. The say they have a "low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted."

 

welfare: Can be provided in the form of food stamps and wic for the anchor babies which is thus used by the families. Free school lunches are also provided for children whether they are legal or not.

 

Health care: Illegals are allowed to use govt. programs for assistance in emergency healthcare situations. The larger problem with healthcare comes from the bills that are accumulated in hospital emergency rooms and clinics. They come in, they receive services (not asked about immigration status), and simply do not pay the bill. It is raising the healthcare costs tremendously.

 

Schools: as others have said, no proof required. Provided for all.

 

Contribution of children: Said legal child of illegal immigrant has accumulated a tremendous debt. Most likely their birth was paid for by our govt. (under emergency services). Their education was paid for. They are allowed to get food services through wic (govt program), food stamps, and school lunch programs. And, as much as it would be great to think otherwise, the vast majority of these kids are going to be working menial jobs that contribute very little to the tax base. The amount of output is most likely never going to come close to the input. In fact, as adults, their input will likely never equal what they are able to receive in assistance as legal citizens.

[MSNative]

LMAO. I know the immigration rules to Mexico. I'm an Irish American living here.

 

Do you have *any* idea how easy it is to be here?

 

Many Americans live here just getting their FMT (now FMM), which is a tourist visa, every 6 months. It's so easy, it's insane.

 

I went in for my FM2, which after 5 years I can get my citizenship, and they want me to have enough income. Fine. They interview me. Fine. I have like one page to fill out and that's it.

 

 

Hmmm, kinda like how easy it is for most people to get tourist visas. We're talking about immigrating. And, gee, Mexico wants you to prove you have enough income to not be a burden on their government. Why is it ok for them to do that, but not for the US?

 

Also, you are following the legal guidelines. What I posted was what Mexico's laws are regarding illegal immigration. They crack down on illegal immigration yet protest when we want to do the same.

[Mejane]

No, just for the FM2 visa.

 

The FMM has none at all.

 

Who said the Mexico immigration system was one we should copy? Who said the US shouldn't know who is in the US? Who said there should be no system? Leap much?

 

Sorry if I misunderstood you. Your posts seem to be defending or excusing those who enter the US illegally.

[Sputterduck]

Hmmm, kinda like how easy it is for most people to get tourist visas. We're talking about immigrating. And, gee, Mexico wants you to prove you have enough income to not be a burden on their government. Why is it ok for them to do that, but not for the US?

 

Also, you are following the legal guidelines. What I posted was what Mexico's laws are regarding illegal immigration. They crack down on illegal immigration yet protest when we want to do the same.

 

Yeah, no. Most people here cannot get a tourist visa to the US.

 

Who said the US should follow Mexico's rules? You guys are great leapers.

 

And, yeah, you don't want to break Mexican laws. The jails suck.

[Sputterduck]

Sorry if I misunderstood you. Your posts seem to be defending or excusing those who enter the US illegally.

 

As I said before, I am asking for compassion for those have suffered terribly and are only trying to survive.

[Mejane]

As I said before, I am asking for compassion for those have suffered terribly and are only trying to survive.

 

And as I said, I have great pity for them, but I still don't want them to come here illegally.

[Sputterduck]

And as I said, I have great pity for them, but I still don't want them to come here illegally.

 

How do you feel about those who can't come here legally ( and I do mean can't) and also have no options for survival in their own country?

[Mejane]

How do you feel about those who can't come here legally ( and I do mean can't) and also have no options for survival in their own country?

 

I'm very sorry for them. As I said before, our government and humanitarian agencies should provide aid and put pressure on the government to improve conditions. The citizens of the country need to foment change as well.

 

There are so many countries in the world whose citizens suffer. Look at Africa; conditions in many of those countries are horrific. They can't come here; are they any less deserving? The solution is NOT for everyone in the world to come here, legally or otherwise. It's just not feasible.

[Sputterduck]

I'm very sorry for them. As I said before, our government and humanitarian agencies should provide aid and put pressure on the government to improve conditions. The citizens of the country need to foment change as well.

 

There are so many countries in the world whose citizens suffer. Look at Africa; conditions in many of those countries are horrific. They can't come here; are they any less deserving? The solution is NOT for everyone in the world to come here, legally or otherwise. It's just not feasible.

 

What you *are* saying to the individuals is it's better that they die than come here.

 

Like it or not, that is the reality that some flesh and blood people on this earth face today.

[Sputterduck]

Oh, and I am trying to provide aid. There are around 100 camps here in my area alone. We service two. There is not enough help however much people like to pretend there is.

[Mejane]

Sputterduck, please tell me what you would like to see. Mexico has a population of approximately 110 million. How many would you like to see come to the US? How many do you think the the US can take? What would free access do to our country? Our economy? What happens if the burden sinks our already fragile economy? Who will step in to save Mexico or the US? What is your vision for all these people?

 

There are already 13 million illegals in the country. I'd really like to know how you see this playing out if illegal immigration is allowed to continue unchecked. Thanks for your thoughts.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Oh, and I am trying to provide aid. There are around 100 camps here in my area alone. We service two. There is not enough help however much people like to pretend there is.

 

 

Yes-but it is not the role of the US citizenry to fund aid for every needy country in the world. Nor is it the role of the US to accept everyone legally nor excuse those who arrive illegally. Eventually we need to put our own citizens and legal residents first. They are our first priority.

 

Those who wish to live in the US need to do so legally.

[Sputterduck]

Sputterduck, please tell me what you would like to see. Mexico has a population of approximately 110 million. How many would you like to see come to the US? How many do you think the the US can take? What would free access do to our country? Our economy? What happens if the burden sinks our already fragile economy? Who will step in to save Mexico or the US? What is your vision for all these people?

 

There are already 13 million illegals in the country. I'd really like to know how you see this playing out if illegal immigration is allowed to continue unchecked. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

I have no great solution.

 

I would like to see people stop pretending that people who choose to come here illegally to escape horror are evil people. I would like people to stop pretending that everyone had options for health and safety.

 

I would like to see compassion and not vitriol for people who've made decisions they would probably make themselves given the same situation.

 

I would like to see

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

still mean something in America.

 

I would also like people to clearly recognize that they are not more important that those who are poor, hungry, and illiterate in the world and that their children are not more important than the children of those people.

 

I would love to see people stop looking the other way and instead act with compassion in a solid, meaningful way. Change the world. Most people could do more but don't care to.

[Mejane]

I have no great solution.

 

I would like to see people stop pretending that people who choose to come here illegally to escape horror are evil people. I would like people to stop pretending that everyone had options for health and safety.

 

I would like to see compassion and not vitriol for people who've made decisions they would probably make themselves given the same situation.

 

I would like to see

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

still mean something in America.

 

I would also like people to clearly recognize that they are not more important that those who are poor, hungry, and illiterate in the world and that their children are not more important than the children of those people.

 

I would love to see people stop looking the other way and instead act with compassion in a solid, meaningful way. Change the world. Most people could do more but don't care to.

 

I agree with everything you wrote, but I'm also a hard realist. We simply cannot save everyone. It's unfortunate, but it's the truth. :(

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I have no great solution.

 

I would like to see people stop pretending that people who choose to come here illegally to escape horror are evil people. I would like people to stop pretending that everyone had options for health and safety.

 

I would like to see compassion and not vitriol for people who've made decisions they would probably make themselves given the same situation.

 

I would like to see

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

still mean something in America.

 

I would also like people to clearly recognize that they are not more important that those who are poor, hungry, and illiterate in the world and that their children are not more important than the children of those people.

 

I would love to see people stop looking the other way and instead act with compassion in a solid, meaningful way. Change the world. Most people could do more but don't care to.

 

I disagree-you have a solution. You want the US to make a value judgment about who are the most deserving or just simply open our borders to everyone and then give them a home, food, education and medical care. Their status as employed, tax paying members of society is irrelevant. No matter how hard I work the money I earn should be given to them for their support because it is nice and they are needful rather than my using it to pay for my own family. We should have less so they can have more. Basically the US should stop being a nation and turn into one giant commune based on love and generosity. How long do you think that would last until we faced economic ruin? How long would that last until we were so weak that we would be overrun by the very same dictatorial governments some of these folks are trying to escape from?

 

Kindness, generosity and understanding are admirable. Assuming that everyone hates, devalues, and considers immigrants evil is ridiculous. Asking that those who wish to live in a given country do so legally is perfectly reasonable.

[Sputterduck]

I disagree-you have a solution. You want the US to make a value judgment about who are the most deserving or just simply open our borders to everyone and then give them a home, food, education and medical care. Their status as employed, tax paying members of society is irrelevant. No matter how hard I work the money I earn should be given to them for their support because it is nice and they are needful rather than my using it to pay for my own family. We should have less so they can have more. Basically the US should stop being a nation and turn into one giant commune based on love and generosity. How long do you think that would last until we faced economic ruin? How long would that last until we were so weak that we would be overrun by the very same dictatorial governments some of these folks are trying to escape from?

 

Kindness, generosity and understanding are admirable. Assuming that everyone hates, devalues, and considers immigrants evil is ridiculous. Asking that those who wish to live in a given country do so legally is perfectly reasonable.

 

How much of the thread did you actually read? Why do people leap so much? I said what I said and I meant it. You can assume that any chasms between what you think I think and what I said don't reflect what I think. :)

[Sputterduck]

I agree with everything you wrote, but I'm also a hard realist. We simply cannot save everyone. It's unfortunate, but it's the truth. :(

 

And I completely agree with that. But, darn it, I'll do what I can.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

How much of the thread did you actually read? Why do people leap so much? I said what I said and I meant it. You can assume that any chasms between what you think I think and what I said don't reflect what I think. :)

 

 

I'm sorry but have you read what you wrote? I've read the entire thread. You are arguing for blanket amnesty and the US opening its borders very freely. You have argued for understanding for those who suffer and would benefit by being in the US. Our difference is that I want to see them become citizens through legal channels while you would forgive their illegal immigration.

 

There is ultimately a limit to how many people the US can hold and fund. You have argued against any legal basis for immigration or for having people in the US who contribute more than they take. You assume that anyone arguing for legal immigration is cruel, unfeeling and lack knowledge of the plight of many around the world. That is patently untrue in general and certainly untrue with regard to me. At what point do you consider it enough? How many illegal aliens can the US economy support?

[Sputterduck]

I'm sorry but have you read what you wrote? I've read the entire thread. You are arguing for blanket amnesty and the US opening its borders very freely. You have argued for understanding for those who suffer and would benefit by being in the US. Our difference is that I want to see them become citizens through legal channels while you would forgive their illegal immigration.

 

There is ultimately a limit to how many people the US can hold and fund. You have argued against any legal basis for immigration or for having people in the US who contribute more than they take. You assume that anyone arguing for legal immigration is cruel, unfeeling and lack knowledge of the plight of many around the world. That is patently untrue in general and certainly untrue with regard to me. At what point do you consider it enough? How many illegal aliens can the US economy support?

 

Quote me where I've mentioned blanket amnesty. :) You won't find it.

 

You *can* quote me where I do mention that a country has limited resources though. :) So why are you trying to convince me of that?

 

Quote me where I said there shouldn't be an legal basis for immigration. :) You can't.

 

Quote me where I said that anyone arguing for legal immigration is cruel or unfeeling. You can't.

 

You *can* quote me where I say I'm looking for compassion. If you read anything beyond that I worry about your reading comprehension skills. :)

[Melinda in VT]

I have no great solution.

 

I would like to see people stop pretending that people who choose to come here illegally to escape horror are evil people. I would like people to stop pretending that everyone had options for health and safety.

 

I think most who are posting in this thread agree with this.

 

I would like to see compassion and not vitriol for people who've made decisions they would probably make themselves given the same situation.

 

Again, I don't see a lot of vitriol in this thread.

 

I would like to see

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

still mean something in America.

 

I think you have perhaps idealized what immigration was like in the decades after that poem was written. Sick or mentally ill immigrants were shipped back to their home countries, and families had to decide whether to return with the one sick family member or stay in America and (usually) never see that person again. We also denied entrance to those who were deemed to have insufficient resources.

 

That poem was written as a fundraiser. It was not a description of US immigration policy.

 

I would also like people to clearly recognize that they are not more important that those who are poor, hungry, and illiterate in the world and that their children are not more important than the children of those people.

 

I would love to see people stop looking the other way and instead act with compassion in a solid, meaningful way. Change the world. Most people could do more but don't care to.

 

I think many of us can do more to help. I know I can.

 

It still doesn't answer the question of what our immigration policy should be.

 

Are you in favor of unlimited immigration?