If you own a business...

[Nakia]

Do you find that people you know try to get something for nothing or ask you to compromise your policies? As many of you know, I am an aspiring photographer. I have been in business a little over a year now. I am dealing with a woman with whom I went to high school, and she has asked me to make a compromise that I am not willing to make. After politely explaining that I will not compromise and the reasons why, she is literally arguing with me. :confused::confused::confused: I have seen this person less than a handful of times since high school 15 years ago. We have kept in touch on the surface through facebook only. In other words, she is not a good friend. I am considering telling her that I am obviously not the right photographer for her. :tongue_smilie:

Edited January 5, 2011 by Nakia

[mysticamethyst]

I would do just that and tell her the name of a few that will do what she wants in her area. If she doesn't like it too bad for her. Life is too short, she is not family and not a close friend. Honestly, depending on the compromise she is asking you to make I wouldn't do it for family either. If it is something you just dont' feel comfy with then its a no go. Hope she stops bugging you soon.:grouphug:

[k2bdeutmeyer]

As a photographer myself, I find this to be more & more true! And I have flat out told someone that I don't think I am the photographer for them on a few occasions and that's okay.

[elegantlion]

For the sake of business if you know of someone that will do what she is asking you might refer her there. Then you are helping her, not pushing her away, if that makes sense. ;) If she's arguing with you then she perceives that she is right and you are wrong (even if you are right) and you could avoid any bad "word of mouth" if you refer her elsewhere.

 

Clear as mud? I can't think straight today.

 

Yes, my dh (carpenter) has had people ask him to compromise. I can't believe the number of people that have asked him to pad estimates so they can get more money from the insurance company. Or even claim damage was done by something it wasn't. :001_huh:

[Jean in Newcastle]

We've had family (esp. the ILs) ask us to compromise not just our policies but our moral standards in business. Sometimes you just have to draw that line in the sand and stand firm. It's really hard, though.

[sparrow]

I think it's common for people to try to "get a deal". I think it's uncommon for someone to keep pushing once you've politely explained that you're not able to make a deal because you believe your prices are fair and you need to cover your costs/support your family. We've never had someone argue with us!

 

Yeah, I'd be telling her I didn't think it was going to work out :glare:.

[JenniferB]

We own a print shop, and we have an unwritten policy not to print for friends. We make an occasional exception, but we usually turn friends away, or "forget" to quote their job, or tell them we are too swamped, etc. It's because we've run into too much trouble, also we feel like we are "gaining" from our friends, and that's not a good feeling. Sometimes we do stuff for free because that feels better than charging them, but mostly we turn their business away. I hope you find a resolution to your problem.

[Lorien]

Do you find that people you know try to get something for nothing or ask you to compromise your policies? As many of you know, I am an aspiring photographer. I have been in business a little over a year now. I am dealing with a woman with whom I went to high school, and she has asked me to make a compromise that I am not willing to make. After politely explaining why I will not compromise and the reasons why, she is literally arguing with me. :confused::confused::confused: I have seen this person less than a handful of times since high school 15 years ago. We have kept in touch on the surface through facebook only. In other works, she is not a good friend. I am considering telling her that I am obviously not the right photographer for her. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm not having to deal with anything like this. But, my dh is an illustrator and when he first started out he was (wisely) advised to avoid doing anything like this. If dh wants to be successful, then he can't be "giving" any of his work away. Even to me. :tongue_smilie:

 

In your situation - and especially as this isn't someone you're really close to - if you do compromise or offer a much lower price than you would normally ask, then this lady probably won't be the last. She will tell someone else about the "great" deal she made and while it may give you some work now, you may find yourself having a whole string of people expecting to get the same great deal. And in the long run, you'll have lost a lot of money because no one is going to want to have to pay you your "proper" price. They'll all want the great deal and you'll feel obliged to give it to them because you gave it to that first person.

 

As for giving your work away -- may I ask a question that is only meant to prompt to you think about something?

 

Is that all you think your work is worth? :001_smile:

 

I think there are a few exceptions. . . a gift for a loved one, or a wedding present for a dear friend, or the wedding/graduation/etc of the son/daughter of a friend, etc. For a normal situation and especially for a casual acquaintance though, I'd be saying no.

Edited January 5, 2011 by lorien

[LisaKinVA]

We found this all. the. time. As business owners, people assumed we were "raking in the dough" simply because we "owned" a business. They would demand free product, discounts, or whatever because we "could afford it."

[Dobela]

My dh is an insurance agent and it happens to him as well. Just last week someone asked him to be dishonest on the policy so they could have cheaper rates. One of my best friends is a hair stylist and it constantly happens to her. Her dad is a preacher and many times someone from his church has come to her wanting services at huge discounts calling them 'brotherhood discounts'.

[Melinda in VT]

I haven't noticed friends doing it more than the general population. A certain percentage of people are just like this, friends or not.

 

I've had people argue with me, lie to me, and defy our policies.

[dcjlkplus3]

Totally off the subject (sorry), but how did your husband get started being an illustrator and what kind of stuff does he illustrate?

[Robin M]

Yes, people argue with me all the time or try to play my husband against me, except they don't know he's my husband at first. We own an electronic repair business and charge $85.00 for an estimate. It's non refundable so if they opt out of getting the equipment fix they don't get it back. We're very clear and explicit on our policies.

 

Folks will outright lie to my husband and tell him "well, your girl told me this." My husband will tell them, 'that girl is my wife and no she didn't"

 

People will argue about the cost of the 85.00. If they can't afford the $85.00 we know they won't be able to afford the repair, so send them off with kind words to someone else. We're expensive but our technicians do quality repairs and we've been around for 22 years. So we must be doing something right. *grin*

 

They also will argue about what we find wrong with the equipment questioning the judgment of the professional they brought to to fix in the first place. Amazing.

 

You just have to stay firm and not back down. Because once you give an inch, they'll take a mile. We've learned from experience. My 2 cents - kindly tell her to take her business elsewhere unless she's willing to abide by your policies.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Mytwoblessings
misspellings and typing too fast

[bookfiend]

We own a print shop, and we have an unwritten policy not to print for friends. We make an occasional exception, but we usually turn friends away, or "forget" to quote their job, or tell them we are too swamped, etc. It's because we've run into too much trouble, also we feel like we are "gaining" from our friends, and that's not a good feeling. Sometimes we do stuff for free because that feels better than charging them, but mostly we turn their business away. I hope you find a resolution to your problem.

 

Wow, that's so sad to read. I try to steer our business toward friends because I think we want to support them and not a stranger. I'm going to be spending the money anyway, I would rather give it to a family I know. However, we are firmly in the "a man is worth his wages" camp.

[Catwoman]

In other words, she is not a good friend. I am considering telling her that I am obviously not the right photographer for her. :tongue_smilie:

 

That's exactly what you should tell her, and if she doesn't like it, I guess you won't see her again for another 15 years.

 

And really, will that be any great loss to you? ;)

 

Cat

[PiCO]

I have a friend who's a photographer, and she had this exact thing happen to her. The girl wanted wedding photos for $300, all inclusive. My friend just said no. Repeatedly. (Woman found a cheap photographer, and judging by her wedding photos she would have been better off paying a real photographer.) My friend also took some senior pictures for someone and they opted to not buy any photos, and then post the photos on FaceBook with "Proof" on their pictures.

 

I think people don't understand the amount of time photographers put in to their craft in addition to the time taking the actual pictures. They don't understand copyright laws either.

 

As for my business, I have people ask all the time for scholarships. I understand asking, but I am much more likely to say yes to someone who wants to work or trade for their bills.

 

ETA- I think you should refer your "friend" to another photographer.

Edited January 5, 2011 by PiCO

[Nakia]

Well, I told her I didn't think I was the right photographer for her, but she argued with that too. A little later sent me a message stating she can agree to my program and is so glad we worked this out. :confused: I haven't responded. Frankly, I don't know what to say. Do I go ahead and do the photos or tell her no? ARGH!

[Cera]

In your situation I would probably ignore the message and "forget" to set a date to take the photos for her.

[Carol in Cal.]

Well, I told her I didn't think I was the right photographer for her, but she argued with that too. A little later sent me a message stating she can agree to my program and is so glad we worked this out. :confused: I haven't responded. Frankly, I don't know what to say. Do I go ahead and do the photos or tell her no? ARGH!

 

I would go ahead and do them, but with a hefty deposit and airtight contract.

 

Some people just negotiate all the time. It's nothing personal.

 

I'm not one of them, but I have seen it. This woman might turn out to be one of your best customers. Now she really knows you and your policies, and she won't be going all over town telling people that she can get them a 'deal', but I could see her going all over town and saying that she paid full price because you are so good.

[Cindyz]

Do you have a contract? (you should) I would have her read and sign the contract asap. Explain to her your policies and that by signing it she is agreeing to them. Be prepared for her to fight you the whole way. Usually people who knew you before you were in business do not have respect for what we do as professionals. I avoid these situations like the plague. For family, I just shoot for free or I don't do it at all. Sometimes they will give me a check or insist that they pay me and that's fine, but I do not expect it.

[Lorien]

.

Edited January 6, 2011 by lorien

[Cindyz]

Also, where do your prices fall? If you are very inexpensive, people will not respect you as a professional as well. You'll earn more respect if you have professional prices that show you are really in business and not just doing photography as a hobby on the side.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Do you find that people you know try to get something for nothing or ask you to compromise your policies? As many of you know, I am an aspiring photographer. I have been in business a little over a year now. I am dealing with a woman with whom I went to high school, and she has asked me to make a compromise that I am not willing to make. After politely explaining that I will not compromise and the reasons why, she is literally arguing with me. :confused::confused::confused: I have seen this person less than a handful of times since high school 15 years ago. We have kept in touch on the surface through facebook only. In other words, she is not a good friend. I am considering telling her that I am obviously not the right photographer for her. :tongue_smilie:

 

Well, there ya go! :D

[vettechmomof2]

My 11 year old daughter has her own sewing business making and selling small animal beds fro pet carriers.

She works very hard on these, picks out and purchases her own materials and charges a reasonable price for them.

Prewashes them with care instructions and will exchange them EVEN if someone damages them within 1 year of purchasing. No questions asked.

People all of the time are asking for freebies, discounts,etc. These are not repeat customers or people buying large quantities but people who "might" buy one and then complain over and over about cost.

My daughter started this business with the sole purpose of sneding herself to one week of Diabetes summer camp every summer. She had to learn about getting a tax number, send in taxes 4 times a year and keep records of sales,donations,etc.

It is not worth the trouble sometimes at all and I have given my daughter free reign that if she ever feels that she needs me to send someone away just to ask but she always handles it very well and consistently sticks to side of things.

She does this, no she does not do that but will do this instead. It makes me more angry than her I believe ;)

[JenniferB]

Wow, that's so sad to read. I try to steer our business toward friends because I think we want to support them and not a stranger. I'm going to be spending the money anyway, I would rather give it to a family I know. However, we are firmly in the "a man is worth his wages" camp.

 

We are not sad about it. We have had good friends refer others to us, and that has worked out wonderfully. However, in our business, we primarily print for other businesses, and not the general public. So, it doesn't usually work out well when someone comes in for personal printing, and those are the ones we have to turn away. People can get very personal about their personal printing. If the color is slightly different than how it appeared on their computer screen, which is normal in the printing industry, people can get really offended. At least, this is our experience, and this is why we turn away friends with these kinds of printing needs. It's not sad though, it's better for all of us. We can stay friends, and we don't have to worry about color variations getting between us. :D Yes, definitely, a man's work (if it's good) is worth his wages.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I think that she is not worth the hassle.

[MomOfOneFunOne]

I *hate* confrontation as much, probably more, than the next guy. Yet, I think purposely accidently forgetting to reply or set a date is not nice or professional.

 

There are two or three clients I just will not take. However, I just say no. I don't feel the need to explain and that hasn't been a problem.

 

There are just yucky people out there. There are some very nice people out there, too. Both sets of people are looking for a good deal and some ppl are looking for more (read morally reprehensible). Yucky ppl will use word of mouth to hurt on purpose and nice ppl will do a friend a favor by steering friends away from professionals who can't remember to reply or keep appointments.

 

"No." is not a confrontation. It's a reasonable answer. "No, you're a jerk and you're going to the hot place for asking that." is. The answer to "Will you take nVde photos of my boyfriend and me?" is just "No, I can't but I do have a list of local photographers if you'd like." Repeat if necessary.

 

And then again, maybe I've never had to deal with someone who can't take a no. I do deal with someone who keeps thinking I'll change my mind. I get that call every few months or so. "No, but I can refer you to a list of [insert profession] in the area." This person has nothing honest to say except "she keeps saying no." I haven't heard anything negative come back to me and business is strong.

[MomOfOneFunOne]

We are not sad about it. We have had good friends refer others to us, and that has worked out wonderfully. However, in our business, we primarily print for other businesses, and not the general public. So, it doesn't usually work out well when someone comes in for personal printing, and those are the ones we have to turn away. People can get very personal about their personal printing. If the color is slightly different than how it appeared on their computer screen, which is normal in the printing industry, people can get really offended. At least, this is our experience, and this is why we turn away friends with these kinds of printing needs. It's not sad though, it's better for all of us. We can stay friends, and we don't have to worry about color variations getting between us. :D Yes, definitely, a man's work (if it's good) is worth his wages.

 

Doing business for friends is pretty sticky business. Our Code of Professional Conduct doesn't forbid it but there are strong cautions. I tried bartering with a friend once. I'd do my kind of work for her and she'd give me the stuff she was selling. It didn't work out and, while we're still friends, I don't do business with friends much anymore either. I'd say never but . . .

[Carol in Cal.]

I want to add something.

 

Maybe she didn't mean to argue. Maybe she was just ignorant.

 

I hired a photographer I know to take pictures of my daughter's Confirmation party. I had a budget in mind, and it was lowish I guess. I have not hired a photographer since we got married in 1987, so although I expected inflation, I underestimated it.

 

Because we are friends, I think that she was taken aback when I didn't just sign the contract. But the contract was really poorly written, too. It didn't describe the deliverables that we had discussed. She told me that it was just boilerplate to document the total price, and that our verbal discussion would be the one that counted.

 

This was hard for me. Frankly, she dropped a little in my estimation as a professional business-woman. (I love her, and I know she is an outstanding photographer, so that's fine.)

 

Anyway, I hesitated and when she asked me why, I told her that I had not really figured on this kind of price, and that I had to think about it. She asked me whether I was requesting a discount to her prices, and I said that I was not, just that I have to consider whether or not I'm willing to pay more than twice as much as I had figured on.

 

Without my asking her to, she came back with a revised quote a day or two later. It was much lower, although not in the ballpark of what I expected. I still signed it, and she did a very nice job.

 

I don't know how she views this interaction. My view is that I was warm, honest, uninformed, and a little indecisive. I absolutely did not argue with her or ask her for a discount. However, she may have felt like I was doing so if she is not that used to having any questions.

 

I could not possibly have paid the original price. It would have caused really bad problems with my DH--as it was, he was pretty upset about the cost we ended up with. Maybe it was fair; I don't really know. But it was too much for me either way.

 

If this woman is willing to pay your full price, she has somehow made peace with it. She believes that you are her best choice. You are a professional. Go ahead and make this name for yourself!

[Nakia]

Thanks everyone. I will decide within the next day or two if I will do her bridal portraits or not. The date is set; it was set when she first contacted me last week. It is actually in 2.5 weeks. I certainly didn't expect this misunderstanding since my policies and pricing are laid out in black and white on my website. I sometimes wonder if people even look at my site. :confused: I hate confrontation as well, but ironically, running a business has helped me get over that a bit. I won't just "forget to email her back". I will be up front and honest with her for sure.

 

Zenz, I do have a contract. I usually just have people sign it the day of the session, but in this case, if I do decide to do them, I will go ahead and email it to her and ask her to read it over, sign it, and mail it back to me with her session fee. About my prices: I am very happy with them. I live in a small town/county in Western NC, and the biggest city is Asheville, about 40 minutes away. Unfortunately, my little area is saturated with a lot of DSLR owners who do 2 hour sessions with high-res CD for $100-200. I'm not about to do that. I researched area photographers whose work I admire, and set my prices based on that and what I want to make per session. Over the past year, I have tweaked my pricing, and like I said, I'm happy with it. It is below the Asheville photographers, but higher than the camera owners in my immediate area. I plan to continue slowly adjusting/raising it as I learn more and gain more clients. I have already had quite a few clients from Asheville, so my plan is working! I also offer a lot of custom products that clients seem to love. The only thing I'm actually not entirely happy with is my session fee. It's super low. I'm thinking of working out a little something different with that. Perhaps, increasing it to include the price of my smallest collection (and a little more) and offering a print credit. Does that make sense at all? It would essentially mean I am collecting the session fee and print fee up front, and giving them the opportunity to purchase more if they want to. Not sure about that.

 

I work part-time as a nurse and, of course, homeschool, so I don't want to do photography full time. I am happy with a few really good sessions per month for now.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Nakia

[StephanieZ]

The first couple years of business ownership were hard in many ways -- but especially emotionally b/c dh & I had to come to grips with pretty much everyone we dealt with putting their hands in our pockets, figuratively. Everyone assumed: 1) we were loaded and 2) they should get a piece of that.

 

I don't know if it was better or worse that we bought our business in a town where we knew noone. It was better b/c at least it wasn't people we had considered good friends trying to mooch/swindle/etc but it was worse b/c it was literally EVERYONE. We had no break from it. If it wasn't employees wanting sth from us, it was a vendor, or a client. . . ARGH. The only person I dealt with in person on a daily basis who was not a complete stranger who didn't 'want a piece' was dh & the kids. It got to be incredibly lonely.

 

We have had a few less-close relatives come all the way here to mooch, but I figure if someone is willing to drive a day or more to mooch a few hundred/thousand dollars in vet care, then fine, we'll do it. Thankfully our families are small enough & distant enough that we can afford to do that.

 

It took us a couple years to harden to it. I am sure it happens just as much now as it did then, but I've learned to tune it out, so it doesn't get to me so much.

 

Now (6 1/2 years into it), we do have many great friends & a lovely circle of pals here in town, but they screen themselves as you go along b/c the moochers/swindlers/salesfolks get screened out of our social world long before they have a chance to become good friends. So, noone we CARE about tries to mooch/sell/swindle us. Strangers do ROUTINELY but we just are used to it. You get good at saying no. It gets much easier as time goes on. Really.

 

It is fun to give things away to people you love; but it is just irritating or infuriating to have things weaseled out of you for people who feel entitled. We give many thousands a year in care/services/product to close family & that's great. Periodically (maybe a handful of times a year), dh will also handle an ER call for a close friend and I don't think he ever charges for those, even though they'd be $200-$1000+ per call if they were charged. . . But, you know what, that feels great to know you helped someone you care about out. These are that handful of good friends who you know would come help you move a piano on a Sunday, or you could call from the hospital and they'd come get your kids in the middle of the night. . . You know, those ones. Those people also are happy to pay normal fees for services and usually do (and NEVER ONCE asked for anything discounted or comped). . . but, on occasion, we'll comp them some big (or small) bill just because. They appreciate it & it makes the world a happier place. These are not the freeloaders-we-met-last-year-once-at-some-random-event-but-since-I-want-something-from-you-I-think-you're-really-my-best-friend- &-don't-you-want-to-treat-my-barnful-of-wild-cats-for-free folks. Those folks are scum, IMHO. Users. Leeches. I hate them. There are a LOT of them out there. Some are blood relatives who only call every year or two, and only when they want something. Gotta love em. Not.

 

This kind of stuff is just part of the hell that is business ownership. You have to grow a thick skin to protect yourself, your livelihood. . . & just let the chips fall where they may. Be polite, be firm, be professional. That's all you can do.

 

Overtime, you'll deal with this stuff so often that you will get used to it (for the most part) and it won't bother you too much. It takes a while to get your communication skills up to where they are effective for you (learn some nice short polite firm catchy phrases) & to grow those extra layers of skin.

 

((hugs))

[ChristusG]

Definitely.

 

Actually, what I did was this: I have a set price list for friends and family. I actually send it to them labeled as the "Friends and Family Discount". That way, they will know that they are getting discounted prices. For my parents, sisters, grandparents, and in laws, if they ever want photos, they pay my cost and I charge no session fee. They rarely want photos, so it is no big deal to me.

 

For the situation you are in, I wouldn't even give her my Friends and Family discount! It's for extended family and friends only....the lady you are referring to is an acquaintance. I would absolutely say "I'm sorry, but I don't think I'm the right photographer for you. I know of another wonderful photographer named So-And-So....here's their number. I hope you get the photo shoot that you are looking for!"

[Carol in Cal.]

Thanks everyone. I will decide within the next day or two if I will do her bridal portraits or not. The date is set; it was set when she first contacted me last week. It is actually in 2.5 weeks.

 

Nakia, if she is getting married in 2 1/2 weeks, she really needs you. I say go for it.

[Nakia]

Nakia, if she is getting married in 2 1/2 weeks, she really needs you. I say go for it.

 

Oh sorry, I should have clarified. The bridal portraits are in 2.5 weeks. Her wedding is in March, and she has hired a different photographer for that because I declined to do it. She has asked me to do pre-wedding shots at the salon and while she gets ready at the location. I told her I would do that as well, before this "situation" took place over the last few days. I am pretty certain I will do the bridal portraits because she has now agreed to my terms. I will wait and see how that pans out before I commit, for certain, to the pre-wedding shots.

[sarawatsonim]

My dh is a goldsmith/jeweller of his own business and people we know try to swindle deals all the time. It's not like we have our own gold mine out back that he gets his supplies from, he has to pay for it. I don't even get free jewelry, everything has a cost. It gets really bad when someone wants an engagement ring. They always want a huge, flawless diamond for very little cost. :001_huh: If that was the case I would be dripping with diamonds and we would have a whole lot more money than we do.:tongue_smilie: