Heather in Neverland Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 After about 3 years of questioning, studying the bible, reading countless books and wrestling with faith, church and doctrinal issues... it happened.... I have come over to the dark side. Sort of. While I do not fully embrace all aspects of the Reformed faith (I still believe in believer's baptism rather than infant baptism, still dispensational rather than covenant, etc.)...both dh and I have come to fully embrace the 5 points of Calvinism. This huge for us. It is a total shift in our thinking and it has been a long time coming. Working on this master's in theology has REALLY given me an opportunity to study it in depth and as much as my flesh was fighting it, my heart and my brain knew it to be truth. What I realized most is that I fought it because of my own pride...I wanted to be in control of everything instead of God. Both dh and I have never felt so RELIEVED and confident and at ease in our faith as we do now. It's like massive light bulbs went off for both of us. Thank you to all who answered my questions so patiently over the years. The seeds you planted have finally sprouted. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giraffe Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 I am so happy for you! To have found "home" is such a wonderful feeling. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 (edited) Wow, Heather - this is such wonderful news. I know exactly what you mean about finding relief in these doctrines as well as the light bulb thing. My dh was the first to explain these to me (before we were married) and I remember feeling like a huge weight had lifted and the scriptures came alive for me and the confusion that had reigned for the first 27 years of my life disappeared. What a blessing that your dh and you came to this understanding together. ETA: Just wanted to add that I am a Baptist, dispensationalist doctrines of grace believer too. A great book on this subject is Are Baptists Reformed? by Kenneth H. Good. Edited January 1, 2011 by Kathleen in VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Tara~ Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Glad to hear you are now at peace. :) (we don't believe in infant baptism either, we're of the Baptist side of reformed) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 (edited) What I realized most is that I fought it because of my own pride...I wanted to be in control of everything instead of God. Both dh and I have never felt so RELIEVED and confident and at ease in our faith as we do now. It's like massive light bulbs went off for both of us. So happy for you guys!!! :D Walking about day to day with a view of God's sovereignty is a very peaceful and joyful way to live! Will this impact your position (you are in some sort of missionary or Christian school work, right?) Edited January 1, 2011 by angela in ohio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Congratulations. It is always nice to find a home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Congrats! Now I'm going to have to look up what Calvinism is, because I learned so long ago I forgot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BikeBookBread Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 I kind of thought you already were :) DH and I switched (that sounds so trite...) about 4 years ago.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 Will this impact your position (you are in some sort of missionary or Christian school work, right?) No, the school is christian but non-denominational. So it is ok to be a dark-sider. :D The hardest thing is not have one single church anywhere on the island that is reformed. About 95% of the churches here are charasmatic (even the catholic church considers itself catholic-charasmatic). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinaPagnato Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Okay, please enlighten me. Does reformed mean that God's sovereignty determines predestination? And that we can witness to others til the cows come home, but it won't make a lick of difference if they're not predestined to believe? Cuz if so, I'm in. I've attended non-denomination, Bible teaching churches all my adult life, and it's been in the last few years that I've started to question some of these issues. What does this mean, practically speaking as we live out our Christian walks? :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 I kind of thought you already were :) :lol::lol::lol: Well, it has been a slow process and it was really about a year ago, while I was studying, that I looked at my dh and said "I think I'm becoming a calvinist!" To which he said "I know. Me too." :lol: So I probably have been more on the calvinist side of things for about a year but I thought today I would make it official. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 Congrats! Now I'm going to have to look up what Calvinism is, because I learned so long ago I forgot. Be careful! Once you start reading on it.... :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BikeBookBread Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 I found this great message board that answered a lot of my questions. Check out "The Wading Pool" sub-forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 I found this great message board that answered a lot of my questions. Check out "The Wading Pool" sub-forum. Thank you!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 I found this great message board that answered a lot of my questions. Check out "The Wading Pool" sub-forum. Just have a thick skin there ;) They will pound every theological point to a pulp and have you digging, digging, digging (it can be exhausting). But there are some sweet people there. I'm still friends with quite a few on FB. Funny thing though, a good handful of us all became EO :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison in KY Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 So what are the 5 points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i.love.lucy Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 :seeya: Another reformed baptist here. Never have I felt more at home with my faith or growing than I do right now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 Just have a thick skin there ;) They will pound every theological point to a pulp and have you digging, digging, digging (it can be exhausting). But there are some sweet people there. I'm still friends with quite a few on FB. Funny thing though, a good handful of us all became EO :p My head is already spinning just reading a few of the the threads. I think I will be a quiet observer and just read those boards. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 So what are the 5 points? http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petepie2 Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 After about 3 years of questioning, studying the bible, reading countless books and wrestling with faith, church and doctrinal issues... it happened.... I have come over to the dark side. Sort of. While I do not fully embrace all aspects of the Reformed faith (I still believe in believer's baptism rather than infant baptism, still dispensational rather than covenant, etc.)...both dh and I have come to fully embrace the 5 points of Calvinism. This huge for us. It is a total shift in our thinking and it has been a long time coming. Working on this master's in theology has REALLY given me an opportunity to study it in depth and as much as my flesh was fighting it, my heart and my brain knew it to be truth. What I realized most is that I fought it because of my own pride...I wanted to be in control of everything instead of God. Both dh and I have never felt so RELIEVED and confident and at ease in our faith as we do now. It's like massive light bulbs went off for both of us. Thank you to all who answered my questions so patiently over the years. The seeds you planted have finally sprouted. :D I'm very happy for you! I had my own journey to the doctrines of grace about 10 years ago. It was a very humbling and emotional experience for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Hooray! Welcome to the dark side. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginevra Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 I find that fascinating. TULIP seems inherently abhorrent to me. I mean that in the nicest possible way. Maybe it seems inherently abhorrent to me because I haven't been lucky enough to be given Irresistible Grace. Sucks for me, then. :tongue_smilie: But that would explain why I continue to struggle with doubts. I should probably just give up and go apostate for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 (edited) "Reformed" dispy credo-baptist here, too. Light bulb? More like a space shuttle launch! Only took me about twenty years ;), but I am most thankful to be here. Welcome! ETA- Agreeing with petepie2, the journey to this point has been very emotional and very humbling. But... what a place both to rest *and* be challenged! Edited January 1, 2011 by AuntieM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Your thread prompted me to do a search & re-read some of the other reformed vs. arminian threads. I noticed you had posted a really interesting thread about doubts you had about it or the like. That previous post really resonated with me so I'd love for you to try to respond to yourself, your prior questions, since you have now "turned to the dark side". :bigear: Thank you for sharing your journey. :001_smile: Prior thread: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79070&highlight=calling+calvinists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love2Smile Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Congrats! Now I'm going to have to look up what Calvinism is, because I learned so long ago I forgot. Yes, Can someone explain this to me, I am Born Again, go to a non-denom Church who believes in "believers baptism" also that you don't have to be baptised to go to Heaven. It's all so confusing to me, I doubt God wanted it to be so! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakia Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 I am not a "dark-sider", but I am happy that you have found peace in the Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLHCO Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html Dang. Why did I click? I'm a reformed sympathizer, agreeing with so much of it to at least a point, but not reformed myself. (Ok, mostly because I've been too lazy to investigate it fully, only catching things from RC Sproul and others at times.) I admit, I've somewhat deliberately not investigated further at this time. The very first section cleared up one of my misunderstandings and I may have to read the whole thing. :glare: :lol: ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXMary2 Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 I am confused about what the 5 points mean exactly.....especially the "elect" part - that Jesus didn't die for all. Can someone elaborate on this? I am a non-denom believer and I don't believe in infant baptism, but I do believe Jesus died for all sinners, which would be everyone. Help me understand what is so freeing by being Reformed. Thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
femke Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Can I ask: (probably a very foolish question...from someone who didn't look much into it :tongue_smilie:) But why bother giving your child a christian education, why bother training a child in the way he should go, if in the end...it doesn't really matter: Your chosen or not... :001_huh: If we can't add to that one single thing...why bother? Why evangelize? Just trying to understand, please don't get me wrong. I myself am leaning towards the Anabaptists but have Calvinistic friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remudamom Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Welcome. You'll come around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle My Bell Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Can I ask: (probably a very foolish question...from someone who didn't look much into it :tongue_smilie:) But why bother giving your child a christian education, why bother training a child in the way he should go, if in the end...it doesn't really matter: Your chosen or not... :001_huh: If we can't add to that one single thing...why bother? Why evangelize? Just trying to understand, please don't get me wrong. I myself am leaning towards the Anabaptists but have Calvinistic friends. Because of OBEDIENCE and LOVE for our Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMom Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 :grouphug: I remember chatting with you many times about these things, Heather. I'm so glad that you're always open to God's leading.:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
femke Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Yes of course, but it wouldn't add a single thing!? If you don't believe in predestination it makes sense why we have to 'do' these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginevra Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 if in the end...it doesn't really matter: Your chosen or not... Pretty much sums up why TULIP doesn't make sense to me; pretty much the reason why anyone rejects it. That and: God creates children, knowing they are not elect, therefore they are doomed since the foundations of the world. To me, it would then mean the Elect can then think, "Whew! Lucky me! I got Irresistible Grace because God wisely chose me at the start of time." But, maybe it's "freeing" to know that they're in, God picked them, it's not for them to worry about goof-ups such as myself, who struggle to believe. So, perhaps I am the fool, trying to "have" something to which I was not graced; I was not gifted with full belief and am foolishly beating my head against a rock for something I have no right to. I find TULIP very distressing, obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KatieH Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 I find TULIP very distressing, obviously. Yes...while there are points of Calvinism that I can technically agree with, I find the idea that God positively ****s some people rather horrifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KatieH Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Apparently we can't say "****" lol. So change that to "sends some people to Hell and gives them no chance at salvation." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Yes...while there are points of Calvinism that I can technically agree with, I find the idea that God positively ****s some people rather horrifying. :iagree:Especially since they were made in his image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iona Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 It does matter. The gospel is the power of the God for salvation. People are saved through the hearing of the word. That is the "means" through which God chose to build His church. So you can rest in the knowledge that God is drawing people to Himself and will complete what He set out to do. If someone rejects the gospel, it isn't because you didn't do enough of a song and dance. You still plead with and hope that people will come to faith. to the op i grew up nondenom/baptist and learned about the reformed understanding of the gospel in college. it was such a relief. the covenental theology sooned followed and i remember the infant baptism was the last to make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
femke Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 The thought of one of my children not being ABLE to come to Christ is horrifying! I just wonder how Calvinists see this.... I keep thinking: Train up your child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it. Again, I'm not judging! I'm trying to understand how you see this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
femke Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 You still plead with and hope that people will come to faith. :001_huh: I don't understand. If they're chosen, you can't do anything. Pleading doesn't help...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iona Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 by pleading i mean, you earnestly are trying to persuade them, even though ultimately God is the one who changes their heart. you don't just read them a paragraph without a care seeing if they check the right box. sometimes it takes years for this process. it comes down to who is ultimately in control. I believe that God is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginevra Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 The thought of one of my children not being ABLE to come to Christ is horrifying! Moreso if you have lost a child. I know some believe that if they were not elect, oh well :confused: but if I didn't at least have the hope of someday seeing my daughter in heaven, (much less imagine she could possibly be in hell)...well, that could cause me to actually go crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Pretty much sums up why TULIP doesn't make sense to me; pretty much the reason why anyone rejects it. That and: God creates children, knowing they are not elect, therefore they are doomed since the foundations of the world. To me, it would then mean the Elect can then think, "Whew! Lucky me! I got Irresistible Grace because God wisely chose me at the start of time." But, maybe it's "freeing" to know that they're in, God picked them, it's not for them to worry about goof-ups such as myself, who struggle to believe. So, perhaps I am the fool, trying to "have" something to which I was not graced; I was not gifted with full belief and am foolishly beating my head against a rock for something I have no right to. I find TULIP very distressing, obviously. You wouldn't be struggling at all if God hadn't given you that desire. You can rest easy in that. Those who are not elect don't want to know God; they are truly Dead in their sins (not just "dying, but can still choose to live.") No one struggles in vain, not the way I believe at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakia Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 You wouldn't be struggling at all if God hadn't given you that desire. You can rest easy in that. Those who are not elect don't want to know God; they are truly Dead in their sins (not just "dying, but can still choose to live.") No one struggles in vain, not the way I believe at least. I am scratching my head about this. I don't want to question anyone's beliefs because I honestly think it's between you and God, but what exactly do you mean by this statement? I certainly don't want this thread to become a debate or turn ugly, but I would like for you to clarify. Are you saying that those of use who do not believe in predestination do not want to know God and are dead in our sins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 The thought of one of my children not being ABLE to come to Christ is horrifying! I just wonder how Calvinists see this....I keep thinking: Train up your child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it. Again, I'm not judging! I'm trying to understand how you see this. On the flip side of that, though, would be that if your child doesn't come to faith, it's not because it wasn't God's will, but because you did something wrong in raising them? (Without even getting in to Covenants or God's promises for our children...) There is no happy side when we are discussing someone who is going to spend eternity in Hell. You can look at it on the Calvinist side or on the Arminian side, but either way, it is horrifying (and rightly so.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 I am scratching my head about this. I don't want to question anyone's beliefs because I honestly think it's between you and God, but what exactly do you mean by this statement? I certainly don't want this thread to become a debate or turn ugly, but I would like for you to clarify. Are you saying that those of use who do not believe in predestination do not want to know God and are dead in our sins? I don't think she is saying that at all. I think (and certainly she should correct me if I am wrong) is that people who are not predestined to know God have no desire to know God. If you want to know God, then you are predestined to know Him. It doesn't matter if you believe in predestination, just that you have the desire to know God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 (edited) I am scratching my head about this. I don't want to question anyone's beliefs because I honestly think it's between you and God, but what exactly do you mean by this statement? I certainly don't want this thread to become a debate or turn ugly, but I would like for you to clarify. Are you saying that those of use who do not believe in predestination do not want to know God and are dead in our sins? No, I'm saying that if someone is struggling to know God (not even Calvinism or anything else specific, just struggling with their faith in general,) it's because He has given them that desire. I believe that Arminian believers are just as predestined as I am (whether they like that or not.) :) There is a huge difference between salvation (way up here) and Calvinist theology (way down here.) I don't know any Reformed believer who thinks that those who don't adhere to the 5 points aren't saved. Edited January 1, 2011 by angela in ohio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 I don't think she is saying that at all. I think (and certainly she should correct me if I am wrong) is that people who are not predestined to know God have no desire to know God. If you want to know God, then you are predestined to know Him. It doesn't matter if you believe in predestination, just that you have the desire to know God. You said it better than me! Thanks! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakia Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 I don't think she is saying that at all. I think (and certainly she should correct me if I am wrong) is that people who are not predestined to know God have no desire to know God. If you want to know God, then you are predestined to know Him. It doesn't matter if you believe in predestination, just that you have the desire to know God. No, I'm saying that if someone is struggling to know God (not even Calvinism or anything else specific, just struggling with their faith in general,) it's because He has given them that desire. Okay, thank you! When I went back and saw the post before and reread yours, it made more sense. I just wasn't getting it at first. Even though we have differing beliefs, it does make sense what you were trying to say. Sorry, I worked 12 hours last night, and only slept an hour this morning, so my brain is very foggy. Thank you for clarifying!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missesd Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 wrong thread.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.