"Be fruitful and multiply"===am I just too sensitive?

[Ottakee]

Dh and I attended a wedding this weekend that was just wonderful. Very focused on living for the Lord, cherishing each other, etc. The music was just awesome as well---professional full orchestra playing music composed and arranged just for this wedding, etc.---friends of the bride and groom.

 

That all said, there were several comments made about "being fruitful and multiplying" during the wedding and then reception. I said something to someone else and they said that the pastor of this church (couple lives out of state from us so I know nothing personally of the church) is very pro large families, children soon after marriage, etc. That might explain the number of children at the wedding. There were at least 10 BABIES at the wedding, in the sanctuary.

 

Now, I am ALL for large families, children early in the marriage, etc. IF the couple wants that. I guess I get a little put off when there are expectations put on a young couple that they will be having children in the next year or so. What if the couple isn't ready for children yet or even more so, struggle with infertility. How do you then explain that either you don't want kids yet or that you are wanting them but struggling with infertility?

 

I even heard (read on line) one "famous" homeschool mom predict at the wedding that she would be a grandma in a year. That was the expectation of the couple.

 

Maybe I am more sensitive because my dh and I struggled with infertility and made the decision to adopt. At this point we are very happy and comfortable with our family situation but I think things would have been different if we would have had a lot of outside pressure on us to "be fruitful" right away when we were just a young couple.

 

I guess I just feel that a couples decision when and if to have children and the issues surrounding that should be left up to the couple to decide for themselves. Maybe I am more private but other than a few very close friends, I didn't discuss our infertility with others and wouldn't have wanted to discuss with the "world" why we weren't expecting within the first year, etc.

 

Any thoughts? Again, I am ALL for large families, children early in the marriage, etc. IF that is what the couple decides but I am just as fine with a couple deciding to wait, adopt, etc.

[Heather in Neverland]

Well, my own mom was the same. I think a day after we were married I started hearing "When are you going to give me some grandbabies?" from her. :D

[Remudamom]

You are a wonderful mother and your children are blessed to have you. Let it slide.

[Ottakee]

You are a wonderful mother and your children are blessed to have you. Let it slide.

 

I love this couple that was married and have no issues with them. I will likely never see the people making these comments again on this side of heaven.

 

I guess it doesn't really bother me now but I can see how hurtful these types of comments could be for a young, newly married couple that was struggling with infertility.

 

At this point honestly the infertility isn't an issue anymore. We have 3 wonderful children and don't have a desire for a bio child. If we had one, great, if not, our life is still complete.

 

I just don't think that some of the people making these comments realize how hurtful they can be for those struggling with infertility or even those who want to wait a few years after they marry to start a family.

[Parrothead]

:grouphug:

 

Try not to take it personally. I often struggle with the ignorance of others. We are Catholic and have one child. I've had all the comments that range from being a bad Catholic to not being a real parent because I've only got one kid.

 

Idiots abound. Just try to say out of their way.

[angela in ohio]

Maybe the couple is completely on board with those beliefs, though. If so, the wishes for them to be fruitful and multiply were probably very happy ones.

[Ottakee]

I have even heard it from Christian circles that if you and your spouse were both "saved" for marriage then there shouldn't be any struggles with infertility as those issues come from being 'impure" before marriage---not as a curse for sin but rather as a result of an STD, etc. While behavior prior to marriage can have an impact on fertility, it is certainly not the only cause of infertility and again, very hurtful to a couple who struggles yet did everything "right".

 

Personally, I don't know that I ever had anyone made hurtful comments to me like this. I just cringe when I hear this coming from various Christian circles.

[Sophia]

Don't you think this couple knew how the pastor felt when they asked him to perform the ceremony?

Dh and I knew our pastor very well and would not have been surprised by anything he said~I guess I just assumed most couples also chose who was going to marry them.

[Danestress]

I just don't think that some of the people making these comments realize how hurtful they can be for those struggling with infertility or even those who want to wait a few years after they marry to start a family.

 

It sounds like the couple also hopes to have children soon, from what you have said. If they struggle with infertility, they will face heartbreaking disappointment. Been there, done that.

 

To me this is like saying that people should not wish a marrying couple great health and happiness because they might get sick or might be unhappy. True. They might, and if they do, they will grow up fast. But still, we wish for those things, for ourselves and others.

 

If this couple has let it be known that they expect to start having a family right away, then these comments seem okay to me. Yes, infertility will be devastating, but it always is anyway.

[Sophia]

I have even heard it from Christian circles that if you and your spouse were both "saved" for marriage then there shouldn't be any struggles with infertility as those issues come from being 'impure" before marriage---not as a curse for sin but rather as a result of an STD, etc. While behavior prior to marriage can have an impact on fertility, it is certainly not the only cause of infertility and again, very hurtful to a couple who struggles yet did everything "right".

 

Personally, I don't know that I ever had anyone made hurtful comments to me like this. I just cringe when I hear this coming from various Christian circles.

 

Wow. I've never heard this before and my Christian friends run the gamut from ultra conservative to ultra liberal.

If I did hear this though, I'd probably just laugh and say "You don't really believe that, do you?"

Who knows where the conversation would go from there. It would depend on my mood and if dh was around~he can never let anything go ;).

 

eta: You also mentioned no one has personally said it to you. How do you know anyone is saying the hurtful things you just mentioned? It could just be a Christian basher looking to make waves. I wouldn't pay any attention to it.

I've heard too many haters distort other people's words.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Sophia

[Ottakee]

Don't you think this couple knew how the pastor felt when they asked him to perform the ceremony?

Dh and I knew our pastor very well and would not have been surprised by anything he said~I guess I just assumed most couples also chose who was going to marry them.

 

I am sure they knew the pastor well and his thoughts on this. They might very well be in full agreement with this----again, not something I would just ask them about.

 

I think this wedding just brought the topic up. The pastor seemed to be a wonderful, Bible believing pastor that is very family oriented--which can be a good thing.

 

I guess I worded it wrong as my issue is more with some in Christian circles that feel you must not be following God's commands if you aren't being "fruitful" right away.

[Wendi]

I have even heard it from Christian circles that if you and your spouse were both "saved" for marriage then there shouldn't be any struggles with infertility as those issues come from being 'impure" before marriage---not as a curse for sin but rather as a result of an STD, etc. While behavior prior to marriage can have an impact on fertility, it is certainly not the only cause of infertility and again, very hurtful to a couple who struggles yet did everything "right".

 

Personally, I don't know that I ever had anyone made hurtful comments to me like this. I just cringe when I hear this coming from various Christian circles.

 

:banghead:

 

As a Christian, this breaks my heart. How much pain this misinformation could cause!

 

Wendi

[SquirrellyMama]

I wouldn't have a problem with it at a wedding.

 

I did hear a couple on the radio once that said they will ask young couples at their church why they aren't starting a family yet. These might be couples who have been married a year or two and do not have children. This one floored me. How do they know that these couples haven't tried to have children and how might these words be hurting them.

 

Kelly

[Shifra]

I have even heard it from Christian circles that if you and your spouse were both "saved" for marriage then there shouldn't be any struggles with infertility as those issues come from being 'impure" before marriage---not as a curse for sin but rather as a result of an STD, etc. While behavior prior to marriage can have an impact on fertility, it is certainly not the only cause of infertility and again, very hurtful to a couple who struggles yet did everything "right".

 

I find this very offensive and missleading! Both my husband and I were sexually inexperienced at our wedding, and we went through years of secondary infertility. Obviously, STDs are a risk factor for infertility, but there are many causes of infertility, not all of them are related to sexual promiscuity.

[angela in ohio]

Wow. I've never heard this before and my Christian friends run the gamut from ultra conservative to ultra liberal.

 

I agree. I have never, ever heard this before. :confused:

[Ottakee]

I agree. I have never, ever heard this before. :confused:

 

This was coming from a very conservative and a bit "out there" group.

 

Just to clarify, this was NOT at all said or implied by the church or pastor where the wedding was that we were at.

[lionfamily1999]

I thought that was SOP for weddings. Sort of like walking into the hospital room to visit the new parents and baby and ask when they're going to have another one :glare:

[lionfamily1999]

I find it hurtful when people start passing off hurtful and cruel ideas on Christianity, especially when they have not even heard it first hand.

Wow. I've never heard this before and my Christian friends run the gamut from ultra conservative to ultra liberal.

If I did hear this though, I'd probably just laugh and say "You don't really believe that, do you?"

Who knows where the conversation would go from there. It would depend on my mood and if dh was around~he can never let anything go ;).

 

eta: You also mentioned no one has personally said it to you. How do you know anyone is saying the hurtful things you just mentioned? It could just be a Christian basher looking to make waves. I wouldn't pay any attention to it.

I've heard too many haters distort other people's words.

:iagree:

[Catwoman]

Personally, I don't think it's anyone's business whether or not people decide to have children, so I find repeated comments about it being almost a requirement to have a large family, to be very tacky.

 

Cat

[JoyfulMama]

I've heard that before. Not that I agree one iota with it, but I have heard it.

 

Fertility is often used as a blessing on a marriage day. That's what fertility is, a blessing. It is not guaranteed. In some circles, yes there is an expectation for a soon-following announcement of pregnancy. My own mom told me she was going to buy grandchildren if I didn't get a move on. She didn't know I had been told I would most likely have difficulty getting pregnant. She wasn't being hurtful, but it was hard to hear.

 

My best friend and my SIL have struggled with infertility. It was very hard for them to watch me birth three children. It was hard for me to watch them be faced with questions about when they were going to have children. It's also hard to be asked if you're going to ever stop having children. :001_huh:

 

It's one of those things you can't win for losing. On a wedding day I think it is most appropriate to bestow blessings on the couple. After that? Tongues should be held.

[OnTheBrink]

I have even heard it from Christian circles that if you and your spouse were both "saved" for marriage then there shouldn't be any struggles with infertility as those issues come from being 'impure" before marriage---not as a curse for sin but rather as a result of an STD, etc. While behavior prior to marriage can have an impact on fertility, it is certainly not the only cause of infertility and again, very hurtful to a couple who struggles yet did everything "right".

 

Personally, I don't know that I ever had anyone made hurtful comments to me like this. I just cringe when I hear this coming from various Christian circles.

 

Oh good grief. How ridiculous! My bf from high school was a virgin on her wedding night and struggled with infertility for decades. So, that theory is shut down! I hate it when people make such BS remarks. Good heavens.

 

And, you could be a little sensitive. But don't take the remarks personally. :grouphug:

[Ottakee]

I've heard that before. Not that I agree one iota with it, but I have heard it.

 

.

 

 

Glad someone else has heard that as well. I am a conservative Christian myself so certainly not out there "bashing" Christians, etc.

 

Maybe it is just that infertility is harder IN the church than OUTSIDE the church as in the church there is a higher expectation of having kids, lots of kids, etc. and outside the church it is more the norm to not have kids---many by choice.

[gardening momma]

Maybe the couple is completely on board with those beliefs, though. If so, the wishes for them to be fruitful and multiply were probably very happy ones.

:iagree: If one or the other (or both) of them were from that church, then they are probably in complete agreement. And (most) grandmothers always want grandkids right away.

 

ETA: If the subject (when are you going to have a baby?) is brought up in the years following the wedding, it could definitely be hurtful, as the person has no idea why the couple does not have kids. But on the wedding day, I think it's perfectly acceptable. As a mom of 2 kids, I wouldn't have a hard time hearing the "be fruitful & multiply" idea being espoused at a wedding. I do occasionally think, "maybe we should have had more...nah, we're good with 2." If I had fertility issues it might be hard to hear, but so would seeing women with babies.

Edited December 21, 2010 by gardening momma

[Rosy]

They may be quiverfull (believing that trusting God with your family planning means not interfering by using birth control). A quiverfull couple (or pastor) would assume that a pregnancy could/would happen shortly after the wedding and that this would be desirable.

[gaillardia]

I just wanted to add that I didn't know a certain couple's infertility issues and commented to her one day in passing "when are you and your husband going to have children?" She calmly said "we don't have any yet but I'll be sure and let you know as soon as I find out." ouch, dumb me.

Then I found out she really did have serious stuff that had happened to her and didn't know if she'd ever have children.

Two children later...in her second pregnancy she had life threatening blood clots in her leg and was told she should not ever get pregnant again. She was heart broken. She and her husband are wonderful parents and able to provide everything their children need.

It isn't anyone else's business who has kids, when, and how many; I mean it is up to the couple and that is a whole other topic and thread.:glare::lol:

[Paintedlady]

We suffered through six years of people's insensitive and intrusive comments about our fertility or lack thereof. People never seemed to tire of sticking their fertile noses into our business. How many days and nights I went off by myself to cry because someone I knew, and usually someone I loved, wouldn't stop with the baby comments. I was so sensitive and humiliated about our infertility and the last thing I needed was constant prodding and questions about something so private. I never ever say anything to childless couples because you never know if there's a problem and I don't want to add to their pain.

 

Also, once we finally adopted, those same insensitive people never tired of telling us about how we'd surely conceive now that we'd adopted. :angry: Our kids are 9 & 10 and hey, we still haven't conceived. Somewhere along the line they finally stopped, but seriously, for over 10 years of my married life I endured it. It still makes me mad to relive it!

[wapiti]

Personally, I would not find such talk to be out of place at a wedding at all, and I've endured my fair share of infertility - perhaps I've lost my own sensitivity at this point. While one can never know for sure (I can think of at least one couple I know IRL who would be an exception to the following statement), it's less likely that the young couple already was experiencing known infertility on their wedding day such that they'd be sensitive to the remarks at the time they were made.

 

Ongoing remarks during the newlywed years and later would be a whole 'nother matter.

[Heather in Neverland]

I have even heard it from Christian circles that if you and your spouse were both "saved" for marriage then there shouldn't be any struggles with infertility as those issues come from being 'impure" before marriage---not as a curse for sin but rather as a result of an STD, etc.

 

OK I need to know which circles to avoid because if someone said this to me my head would explode. This must be the same group that says a person is not healed because they didn't have enough "faith"? :glare:

[hana]

OK I need to know which circles to avoid because if someone said this to me my head would explode. This must be the same group that says a person is not healed because they didn't have enough "faith"? :glare:

 

I heard it while I was a Baptist teenager (about 25 years ago), at the same retreat where it was very pointed that my being sexually abused (by an adult male who claimed to be Christian) meant that I was already impure.

[BlsdMama]

Any thoughts?

 

 

My thoughts are that what you may have perceived as pressure to "make babies" was actually just encouragement to follow a lifestyle they've chosen to embrace...

 

There are many Christians who are turning their back on the world's view of "control" when it comes to family planning and just turning it over to God.

 

Attempting to have Christ's view of children, they are unmitigated blessings as portrayed in the Bible, is no longer normal nor expected.

 

Think of it this way:

 

Money is seen as a blessing. No one thinks it odd if several someones at a wedding were to wish the new couple joy & prosperity. Those are widely accepted blessings.

 

If children were accepted and properly seen as blessings, then why would the new couple not want to be wished many beautiful blessings - children?

 

It is purely perspective. The world has VERY much colored the perspective through which we NOW see marriage. But God was clear in the scriptures:

 

King James Bible

 

Psalm 128:3

Thy wife [shall be] as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table.

 

This is a blessing.

 

Weddings are a time for blessing the new couple.

 

We wish you much joy.

We wish you prosperity.

We wish you good health.

 

The greatest blessing?

 

We wish you children!

Edited December 21, 2010 by BlsdMama

[BlsdMama]

I guess I worded it wrong as my issue is more with some in Christian circles that feel you must not be following God's commands if you aren't being "fruitful" right away.

 

 

Well, often that can be the case... If you go to a church where hormonal birth control is taught as wrong, then if you were practicing birth control it *would* be seen as wrong. So, there is that..... But I don't think any quiverfull Christian is thinking, "Well Jan has 1 baby, Sue has 3, and I have 4, so I must be the most 'godly' woman," kwim?

 

 

Now, I have a sister-in-law that has struggled with infertility for YEARS. YEARS. They've been married for 13 years and it should be obvious to any person, or at least within our family, that after the first EIGHT, when they weren't being quiet about the issue, to be hushed about the baby questions.

 

And yet, how often did we hear Great Grandma tell her, "You need to be havin' some babies." Seriously? Did you want a little salt to rub in there? How about rubbing alcohol? Burn much?

 

They DID miraculously conceive a child and they now have a daughter BUT it's only made comments worse. I watched last summer a girl I KNOW knew she had troubles conceiving telling her she needed to "catch up" with me and have another baby.

 

My SIL takes it pretty well, and bless her for her grace. I don't think I'd handle it nearly so well. :( It makes me think twice before I make callous retorts to strangers commenting on our family size. It makes me think twice before I say much of anything. But I wonder how many stupid things I said before I knew they were struggling?????????

 

Be gentle with us. Some of us are stupid. Others are just immune to others' pain. Some have never known anyone who struggles with infertility or at least not well enough to see how painful it is. :( But, generally speaking, at a wedding, people aren't thinking about infertility so they don't have a filter on there.

[Miss Sherry]

...........

I even heard (read on line) one "famous" homeschool mom predict at the wedding that she would be a grandma in a year. That was the expectation of the couple.

 

Maybe I am more sensitive because my dh and I struggled with infertility and made the decision to adopt. At this point we are very happy and comfortable with our family situation but I think things would have been different if we would have had a lot of outside pressure on us to "be fruitful" right away when we were just a young couple.

 

I guess I just feel that a couples decision when and if to have children and the issues surrounding that should be left up to the couple to decide for themselves. Maybe I am more private but other than a few very close friends, I didn't discuss our infertility with others and wouldn't have wanted to discuss with the "world" why we weren't expecting within the first year, etc.

 

Any thoughts? Again, I am ALL for large families, children early in the marriage, etc. IF that is what the couple decides but I am just as fine with a couple deciding to wait, adopt, etc.

Well, my guess is that the couple was probably familiar with the attitudes of the people in the church they married in. They can stay in that church or leave. I imagine they will decide whether or not to stay based on whether or not the teachings, beliefs etc. match up with their own or not. I wouldn't worry about it. They'll figure it out.

 

adding : Try to remember that the comments were all meant for the couple being married - as far as I can tell. I think that people just tend to assume -( and maybe we shouldn't) - that our comments are being processed by those they were intended for and ignored by those they were not intended for. I'm sorry if some of the comments at the wedding were hurtful to you. I don't think the comments were being filtered through the issue of infertility. I don't think people generally think in terms of considering infertility until or unless it is known to be an issue.:grouphug:

Edited December 21, 2010 by Miss Sherry

[Aubrey]

I was having tea w/ a dear friend of mine when I told her that I was going to marry dh in a few months. I glibly told her our plans to wait 5yrs to have children. We were both still in school, & taking turns working, that's about how long we thought it would take us to finish our degrees. Honestly? I was playing house. I knew *nothing.*

 

She was single, old enough to be more than my mother, & her eyebrows shot up. She was Eastern Orthodox, but I didn't know that at the time, didn't know that Catholics didn't believe in bc. I only knew that newlyweds were "expected" in my circles to wait several years before having kids. More if you were marrying young. (I was 19.)

 

My friend told me in no uncertain terms that if I was not ready to have children, I was not ready to get married. The truth? The thought of children delighted me, but...I wasn't grown up enough to *plan* them! She took marriage more seriously than *anybody* else I talked to in the mos leading up to the wedding.

 

Her words were too much of a world-changing pov for me to process or change direction over, but they resonated with something inside & stayed there. My philosophy on bc at 19 was that it was ridiculous to think that a tiny pill could stop God. It was not long after the wedding that I began to realize the gravity of willfully defying God--and ever since then I have wondered/struggled w/ what his ideas of fertility are, how he feels about bc.

 

I'm not Catholic, but dh & I have always been *very* conservative w/ bc, as there's a creeping suspicion between us that something's not right about it. I could have dismissed my friend's brazen words as her faith vs my own, but it was an honest expression of love, & I knew that.

 

Her words have stayed with me, & now I'd say that these kinds of comments & advice...besides the fact that one is not going to refrain from wishing a long life on someone at their wedding, lest they die soon after (& likewise for fertility--*wishing* it on someone seems innocent to me), these words in my life have served to gradually free me from cultural norms, made me much more comfortable w/ my own desire for a large family (by American standards), & make me be more honest & faithful w/ my fertility (as opposed to just going along w/ what's expected).

 

I did get the little brown bag of bc pills before the wedding. I ended up throwing them away--not because I felt any sense of pressure, but because, despite my family's, my culture's, even my religion's expectations, there *were* people standing on the other side of the issue, waving, & offering me a place there w/ them.

 

I'm so sorry these things hit a sore spot with you! I hope the people there meant well & the couple will be blessed either way.

 

(Now as it turns out, I seem to have a tent in the middle of no man's land instead of comrades on one side of the issue or the other, lol, but it does mean a lot to me to be around people who don't think large families are gross, excessive, weird, etc. But that's another thread.) :001_smile:

[Heather in Neverland]

I heard it while I was a Baptist teenager (about 25 years ago), at the same retreat where it was very pointed that my being sexually abused (by an adult male who claimed to be Christian) meant that I was already impure.

 

Oh my word. This makes me ill. I am so sorry. :grouphug:

[Ottakee]

That is terrible.

 

I just want to make it clear that the church/pastor where the wedding was held (from original comments that started the thread) showed themselves to be NOTHING but caring, kind, considerate, etc. It was not the church from the wedding that has made some of these other comments. It was more that a few comments during the wedding that got me thinking and off on this tangent.

 

It is so sad that so often the most wounded are wounded even more in the church.