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Has anyone flown lately? W/kids?


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I don't really have anything to add to this, you guys have it covered. I just wanted to say :iagree:

As adults, we can choose to be groped in that situation, but I can't in good conscience put my kids in that position/make that choice for them. We've been coming to this decision for awhile, but this is the last straw for me. Doesn't look like we'll be flying for a long time.

:iagree: I'm surprised that isn't more of an issue for others.

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How shocking to think monetary gain might be a motive.:rolleyes:

I'm really surprised I haven't heard it mentioned at all. I mean the guy that's convincing us all how important it is works for them?!? Conflict of interest much?

 

ETA eternalknot, incestuous :lol: good word choice.

Edited by lionfamily1999
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:iagree: I'm surprised that isn't more of an issue for others.

 

Me too. Let's see, radiation, or groping. Great choices. Unfortunately many people have little choice but to fly, but for me going forward I will only fly if there's no way around it. These TSA people don't get such great screening themselves (remember the case last year of a TSA agent "planting" some drugs on a passenger as a joke -- believe it was at the Philadelphia Airport)?

 

I'm not counting on people like that to use good sense or humanity with respect to either naked scanned images or pat-downs.

 

And good luck to us all suing the government, TSA or the out-of-business airlines a decade or two from now when the increased incidences of cancers start showing up. (okay, let's see all your airline flight stubs from the past 20 years to prove how much you flew...)

 

It's maddening.

 

And there's nothing preventing anyone from blowing up buses and trains, and they still appear to be running.

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Me too. Let's see, radiation, or groping. Great choices. Unfortunately many people have little choice but to fly, but for me going forward I will only fly if there's no way around it.

 

It's maddening.

 

And there's nothing preventing anyone from blowing up buses and trains, and they still appear to be running.

 

Yup. I don't think I can really help but fly if I want to see my family. How long would it take to get from the West Coast to Spain if I were not to fly??? I am glad though my dh does not have to fly for work nearly as much as he used to!

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Those scanners were installed before she took over the job of airport security boss. So in a sense, yes, it is backtracking.

 

 

The difference is that TSA intends for every US checkpoint to have scanners, and for them to be used as the primary screening tool. They intend to remove all metal detectors and replace them with scanners as soon as they can get them manufactured, installed, and operating. If TSA has their way, in the near future your only options will be either to get scanned or receive an "enhanced" pat down (their words).

 

 

I have to say that I completely agree with the Dutch oficial that the main way to fight terrorism is through intelligence work and international cooperation in this respect. That at least has proven to be the case in the long fight against terrorism in Spain.

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Yup, to and from Denver.. no issues. Oldest daughter even went through the full body scanner. The dude put his hand over the screen so no one, including himself saw her scan. It was honestly more of a hassle to deal with the lap top and shoes than the scanners. I will say, the Denver airport was much tougher to get through. They did not have full body scanners, just the usual metal detector ones. They looked through every last thing, even taking my mother's almost used-up under 3oz toothpaste away. It was interesting to see the difference in the two airports and how they handled the hold process.

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Yup, to and from Denver.. no issues. Oldest daughter even went through the full body scanner. The dude put his hand over the screen so no one, including himself saw her scan. It was honestly more of a hassle to deal with the lap top and shoes than the scanners. I will say, the Denver airport was much tougher to get through. They did not have full body scanners, just the usual metal detector ones. They looked through every last thing, even taking my mother's almost used-up under 3oz toothpaste away. It was interesting to see the difference in the two airports and how they handled the hold process.

On one hand, that was very polite of him... on the other..... why bother with the scanner if you aren't looking?

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On one hand, that was very polite of him... on the other..... why bother with the scanner if you aren't looking?

:iagree:

 

 

So, she was exposed to radiation for no reason?

 

Also, I thought the images were being looked at in a separate, secure location away from the public eye??? Isn't that what they are telling us?

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:iagree:

 

 

So, she was exposed to radiation for no reason?

 

Also, I thought the images were being looked at in a separate, secure location away from the public eye??? Isn't that what they are telling us?

 

 

That's what I have read, also. Two thoughts:

 

1. Why your older daughter? Is she good looking (as in a "hot" body)? From her beautiful face on your cool blog, I can assume that the answer to that question is a resounding YES, she is "hot." [Disclaimer: This is a rhetorical question only and is not intended to provoke you, as Tigress Mother, to be offended in any way.] By the way, could you post (on your blog) a recipe for the lip balm? Thanks! ;) And please tell your actress that the Kabuki makeup video was wonderful! I'm going to show it to my girls when we study Japan next year.

 

2. He might have "covered" the screen to appease you and look good in public, figuring he would just go have a look later. I really wonder when they make claims to not saving any of the images. Really?

Edited by Sahamamama
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When we were flying in late July, the one person who was selected for the scan was my slim, curvaceous young daughter. We didn't even know at first where she was. Fortunately for her, she was really sleepy and didn't react.

I certainly think that the screenings are not only random but useless. People often chosen are either attractive people or people who look like they won't cause problems for the officials. But my main issue here is that it isn't making us safer at all. You don't have to be a security expert to figure out how to get bombs on board even with these procedures. THat CBS article someone linked earlier shows exactly what needs to be done in this country. As the article recounts, it isn't solely a racial or religious profile. That is because people can be duped into carrying out evil plans and most people of all types are not involved in terrorism. But profiling suspicious behavior would go a long way. The Christmas Day Bomber was coming to Detroit in the winter from Africa without a suitcase. That makes no sense.

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The Christmas Day Bomber was coming to Detroit in the winter from Africa without a suitcase. That makes no sense.

 

Exactly. And the bombs recently found on planes were Fedex shipments of printers from Yemen. There were only 11 total Fedex shipments from Yemen on that day. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to decide to inspect those shipments a little more closely.

 

But instead of taking those bad boys apart, they've decided to pull aside teenage girls for virtual strip searches and pat downs.:cursing:

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:iagree:

 

Those who think it is no big deal might want to re-read the 4th amendment to the Constitution. What's next? Cavity searches?

 

Make no mistake about it: your rights are being eroded for security theater. Why theater? Because there's no evidence that this technology is going to be any more effective than other, less invasive, and less costly methods. These scanners were expedited in response to last year's Christmas Day bomber (underwear bomber), but even TSA has admitted that these scanners probably wouldn't have caught him. However, there are a lot of people making a LOT of money selling these machines, and the pesky issue of effectiveness probably doesn't concern them too much.

 

I also have concerns about the safety of some of the scanners being used. The backscatter machines use x-rays, and their dose is concentrated at the surface of our bodies. There is reason to believe these x-rays are penetrating at least as far down as the dividing cells of your skin. Repeated exposure and/or the possibility of a scanner malfunction (leading to a much higher than intended dose) may increase the risk of skin cancer.

 

Those who claim these scanners are safe often obfuscate by claiming you receive more radiation on a plane flight. However, those are gamma rays, a whole different story. They penetrate much further into your body, dispersing the dose through a much larger volume.

 

But the news isn't all bad. Two things have made air travel safer since 9/11. The first is reinforced cockpit doors. The second is a behavioral change: passengers and crew will not go down without a serious fight.

 

What is the biggest threat to air travel safety? In my opinion, it is the fact that commercial cargo carried on passenger planes is not x-rayed. They x-ray us, and our stuff, but they let cargo on the plane with no screening. It is claimed that it would be too difficult to do, so it just isn't done. Gee, now I feel safe.

 

Punchie, I'll PM you with a few more thoughts. :)

 

Anyone else interested in learning more might want to hop over to FlyerTalk's Travel Safety/Security subforum.

 

 

Totally agree with you. :iagree:

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On one hand, that was very polite of him... on the other..... why bother with the scanner if you aren't looking?

 

I believe they have to pick a certain # to make it look like they're not profiling. While we went through they full scanned old folks, young folks, etc. It seemed to be a # thing, not if someone was "hot" or scary looking. Shoot, in Denver they seem to pick on mostly old ladies.

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That's what I have read, also. Two thoughts:

 

1. Why your older daughter? Is she good looking (as in a "hot" body)? From her beautiful face on your cool blog, I can assume that the answer to that question is a resounding YES, she is "hot." [Disclaimer: This is a rhetorical question only and is not intended to provoke you, as Tigress Mother, to be offended in any way.] By the way, could you post (on your blog) a recipe for the lip balm? Thanks! ;) And please tell your actress that the Kabuki makeup video was wonderful! I'm going to show it to my girls when we study Japan next year.

 

2. He might have "covered" the screen to appease you and look good in public, figuring he would just go have a look later. I really wonder when they make claims to not saving any of the images. Really?

 

:blink:

 

Um, I love my daughter very much, but I can safely say there were ladies with much more junk in their trunk, who were not scanned. The gal who went right after my daughter was about 80. I honestly don't think it was sexual in any way. Please, these folks can find much more sexually explicit material on their lap top then via an ex-ray machine. And it was a woman who chose who went through the full body scan in Atlanta. Maybe she's the one!! :lol:

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Just recently flew (and airport metal detector went off on me) so I had to go thru the new TSA pat down procedure. It was not that big of a deal, IMO. It was female for female. And she was polite and told me in DETAIL what she was about to do. (I barely felt anything to be honest. And I was on my period with wearing thick pads too.) Be prepared to have hands on you in the waistband, bra elastic band area, neckline, pant inseams, etc. No groin region or handling of breasts -- at all. They test the gloves after for residue and then you are released. It was quick, tho'.

 

Interesting because my mom just got the expanded search less than a week ago. She was asked to step aside and was patted down in full public view. She said it was humiliating and her breasts were handled and her groin wastouched. She said she felt like she'd just been "felt up.":glare: I bet that the TSA agent got a rude awakening when she discovered that my mom doesn't wear a bra.

 

The lady sitting next to my mom on the flight commented that she'd seen the whole thing and felt sorry for her.

 

The pat down happened in Portland.

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I believe they have to pick a certain # to make it look like they're not profiling. While we went through they full scanned old folks, young folks, etc. It seemed to be a # thing, not if someone was "hot" or scary looking. Shoot, in Denver they seem to pick on mostly old ladies.

:001_huh:

 

And here I thought it was a security thing.

 

Or a money thing.

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The following link is Ron Paul's view on these new security measures. I thought the bit he mentions about citizens not giving up their rights by choosing to fly is particulary noteworthy:

 

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/videoLibrary/clip.php?appid=599164944

 

After thinking about this a little more, theoretically, a pedophile who has not been caught could be hired by TSA and legally allowed to feel a child. I find that extremely disturbing.

 

Also, even if a person goes through the body scan and the screener finds nothing suspicious, some individuals are being randomly selected for a pat down as well as the screening. IMO, that is unnecessary and an example of abuse. (This recently happened to a member of a travel board I'm subscribed to. All of her body was patted down including private parts in full view of other passengers.)

 

Lastly, Chertoff's involvement in the sale of some of these machines is a clear conflict of interest.

 

Ack. I am not entirely comfortable with this, and of course, this is the year we've made plans to travel twice. I'd choose to drive elsewhere for vacations if I could get a refund of our plane tickets.

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We recently fired a pediatrician for being unprofessional/not very gentle when examing ds for a groin injury.

 

So, if I take ds to the airport not only would he have a meltdown over the pat down - that's how badly he was treated by the doctor - but on top of that, we've told him why we fired the doctor....no one has a right to "handle you" in that manner unless you have been arrested for a crime and are headed to county lock up! We've taught the kids good touch, bad touch, etc. We've taught them that they should tell a policeman, a store security officer, a fireman, whomever is near in a uniform of what happened if we are not right there with them. We've taught them that security personnel are there to protect them.

 

Well that whole lesson is shot straight to &*^R*^E$*^T%*^! Isn't it?

 

Welcome to America where we have government sanctioned child molestation and pornography! (Yeah, if you think they don't store the images, ask the woman from the Detroit airport whose naked scan ended up on the internet.)

 

Faith

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The following link is Ron Paul's view on these new security measures. I thought the bit he mentions about citizens not giving up their rights by choosing to fly is particulary noteworthy:

 

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/videoLibrary/clip.php?appid=599164944

 

After thinking about this a little more, theoretically, a pedophile who has not been caught could be hired by TSA and legally allowed to feel a child. I find that extremely disturbing.

 

Also, even if a person goes through the body scan and the screener finds nothing suspicious, some individuals are being randomly selected for a pat down as well as the screening. IMO, that is unnecessary and an example of abuse. (This recently happened to a member of a travel board I'm subscribed to. All of her body was patted down including private parts in full view of other passengers.)

 

Lastly, Chertoff's involvement in the sale of some of these machines is a clear conflict of interest.

 

Ack. I am not entirely comfortable with this, and of course, this is the year we've made plans to travel twice. I'd choose to drive elsewhere for vacations if I could get a refund of our plane tickets.

 

My children and I will not be flying any time soon after what I saw and heard about on the news last night.

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Here is a lovely quote from a technology news report. This is what one of the designers of the backspatter machines has to say:

 

"TSA saying these machines cannot store images is a little like saying a camera can produce pictures without storing an image," Rotenberg said. "We know from the [Web site of] one of the vendors that these machines can indeed store images."

 

Rapiscan, L-3 Communication and AS&E are the three main vendors of this technology.

 

Rotenberg understands TSA is trying to assure people that the image will not be saved or stored, "but that has to be backed up with a change in the law."

 

Promises and public statements by TSA are not legally binding, he noted.

"Essentially, these machines are digital cameras," he said.

 

Oh yeah, that makes me so confident about the TSA stated policy!

 

Faith

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Oh come on, who wants to be felt up, or subject their dds to that?

 

My BOYS would be deeply disturbed. I have one who had a hard time letting the Dr (male) see his test!cles during a physical. I can't imagine making them be felt up, in full view of the public, and telling them "It's okay, Mommies, Daddies, Dr's and Government officials are the only ones who can see and touch your private areas" Just. Wrong.

 

Good thing we don'y fly!

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After thinking about this a little more, theoretically, a pedophile who has not been caught could be hired by TSA and legally allowed to feel a child. I find that extremely disturbing.

 

 

 

Already happened.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/orange_news/013110_TSA_agent_arrested_for_molestation-

Continue to be extremely disturbed, and lobby your congressman to have TSA defunded immediately.

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Already happened.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/orange_news/013110_TSA_agent_arrested_for_molestation-

Continue to be extremely disturbed, and lobby your congressman to have TSA defunded immediately.

 

The link doesn't work...but I can imagine it's disgusting. I have literally felt sick to my stomach reading through this thread. I have a special needs child who would also FREAK out walking through the scanner alone. (as was mentioned earlier in this thread) He also freaks out when strangers touch him....I can't imagine what it would do to him to have him ripped away from me, have his pants pulled down and groped in front of everyone. I. will. never. fly.

Edited by MyBlueLobsters
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The link doesn't work...but I can imagine it's disgusting. I have literally felt sick to my stomach reading through this thread. I have a special needs child who would also FREAK out walking through the scanner alone. (as was mentioned earlier in this thread) He also freaks out when strangers touch him....I can't imagine what it would do to him to have him ripped away from me, have his pants pulled down and groped in front of everyone. I. will. never. fly.

 

Sorry I guess I boofed it...won't work now for me either. Fox News Orlando reports that a currently employed TSA agent has been arrested for molesting a 15 yr old girl. Maybe Google can help?

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bad link - try this one

 

had it not been for all of the kerfuffle about the new security stuff, this guy wouldn't have even been in the news. they took that angle and ran with it - poor journalism, IMO.

 

really - think about it. does everyone who is charged with a sexual offence of some sort make the news? of course they don't...the only reason that this guy did is because of the job he currently has.

 

[i'm not getting into the whole convo about the security measures - i'm just commenting on the angle they used.]

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had it not been for all of the kerfuffle about the new security stuff, this guy wouldn't have even been in the news. they took that angle and ran with it - poor journalism, IMO.

 

really - think about it. does everyone who is charged with a sexual offence of some sort make the news? of course they don't...the only reason that this guy did is because of the job he currently has.

 

[i'm not getting into the whole convo about the security measures - i'm just commenting on the angle they used.]

 

He has a job that REQUIRES him to touch strangers' genitals, etc. And an employer with the full force and power of the FEDERAL government. I think that makes it news, in light of current events. PARTICULARLY after the TSA assured the public that they are doing proper background checks on its employees.

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PARTICULARLY after the TSA assured the public that they are doing proper background checks on its employees.

 

a background check isn't going to turn up anything if a person hasn't been convicted of a crime... this guy's "background check" could have been squeaky clean. (and prolly glowing ~ he's an ex-marine) he's only NOW being charged with a crime...

 

anyway - i'm not in the TSA/whatever arguments.

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Well my dh just cancelled our christmas plane tickets....we are driving cross country now in order to spend time with Grandma...there is just not a lot of information or policy regarding who, how, and what is going on. I can't seem to get an answer to what happens when a person is UNABLE to do the naked body scanner due to holding an infant in arms...or a small child who is incapable of standing still. Although they say under 12 will not have the "enhanced" patdown there is nothing about if I as mama will have to have my personal parts touched while my children are right there. Also everything I see of mama's who have had to be patted down has them having to let go of their children (most are put into strollers) but I don't have a stroller for my baby because I wear him yet no one will tell me what would happen if I was unable to put the baby down...so no more flying until things are changed, communicated and appropriate for ALL (not just the the over 12's).

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Well my dh just cancelled our christmas plane tickets....we are driving cross country now in order to spend time with Grandma...there is just not a lot of information or policy regarding who, how, and what is going on. I can't seem to get an answer to what happens when a person is UNABLE to do the naked body scanner due to holding an infant in arms...or a small child who is incapable of standing still. Although they say under 12 will not have the "enhanced" patdown there is nothing about if I as mama will have to have my personal parts touched while my children are right there. Also everything I see of mama's who have had to be patted down has them having to let go of their children (most are put into strollers) but I don't have a stroller for my baby because I wear him yet no one will tell me what would happen if I was unable to put the baby down...so no more flying until things are changed, communicated and appropriate for ALL (not just the the over 12's).

There is no video of this woman at the airport, but I saw her on the news yesterday. She was travelling alone with a baby. She said the TSA agent took the baby out of her arms for her to have the pat down.

 

Capitalism at work. Opt-out day.

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I just sent a bunch of emails to my senators and congressman about this. There is a lawsuit being filed against the TSA for the sexual assault of a three year old child. The parents felt that they didn't have any choice but to hold her down for the "pat down" because they were told they'd be arrested and possibly fined $10,000.00 for refusing to do so. Getting arrested means your child gets taken into protective custody and not all that many Americans these days have an extra ten grand sitting around waiting to pay off the TSA for refusing to allow your child to be groped. There was video on the net which I saw the other day and it was nauseating. The dad took the video with his cell phone....I guess he had presence of mind and a mild manner....my dh would have seriously laid the TSO out flat on the ground. According to him, he would be determined to deliver a good broken nose before his arrest! Anyway, the child was screaming, "Don't touch me, Don't touch me!" I couldn't make out one of the things the child screamed (and she was screaming at the top of her lungs, very traumatized) but it sounded like "Bad touch". Gut wrenching....made me want to puke. That's one child that will never trust anyone in a uniform ever again and that's so scary...a child who will think, "I can't tell the policeman what happened because he will do bad things to me."

 

I didn't link the video (I had planned to) because their lawyer pulled it, obviously the feds demanded that it be taken off pending the investigation. Their lawyer is suing. Good luck with that! I mean, they could have the best attorneys that Harvard, Tulane, Stanford, and Columbia have to offer but suing the government...HA! You know the liberal supreme court is going to side with the feds and announce we have no inalienable rights.

 

I actually said to my senator, "What kind of H*ll Hole has America become?"

 

Faith

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I just sent a bunch of emails to my senators and congressman about this. There is a lawsuit being filed against the TSA for the sexual assault of a three year old child. The parents felt that they didn't have any choice but to hold her down for the "pat down" because they were told they'd be arrested and possibly fined $10,000.00 for refusing to do so. Getting arrested means your child gets taken into protective custody and not all that many Americans these days have an extra ten grand sitting around waiting to pay off the TSA for refusing to allow your child to be groped. There was video on the net which I saw the other day and it was nauseating. The dad took the video with his cell phone....I guess he had presence of mind and a mild manner....my dh would have seriously laid the TSO out flat on the ground. According to him, he would be determined to deliver a good broken nose before his arrest! Anyway, the child was screaming, "Don't touch me, Don't touch me!" I couldn't make out one of the things the child screamed (and she was screaming at the top of her lungs, very traumatized) but it sounded like "Bad touch". Gut wrenching....made me want to puke. That's one child that will never trust anyone in a uniform ever again and that's so scary...a child who will think, "I can't tell the policeman what happened because he will do bad things to me."

 

I didn't link the video (I had planned to) because their lawyer pulled it, obviously the feds demanded that it be taken off pending the investigation. Their lawyer is suing. Good luck with that! I mean, they could have the best attorneys that Harvard, Tulane, Stanford, and Columbia have to offer but suing the government...HA! You know the liberal supreme court is going to side with the feds and announce we have no inalienable rights.

 

I actually said to my senator, "What kind of H*ll Hole has America become?"

 

Faith

OMG.

 

That's... that is just disgusting.

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Some slightly good news for younger children:

 

Children 12 years old and under who require extra screening will receive a modified pat down.

 

source

 

The blog doesn't say what they mean by "modified," but I'm hoping it means that the crotches of small children won't be groped.

 

However, I'm taking it with a grain of salt, because the source (TSA's official propaganda blog) often contains half-truths and evasions, and comments are routinely censored. Furthermore, TSA employees frequently have no knowledge of the official procedures described on the blog. But as this is a busy travel week coming up, maybe the procedure for kids 12 and under will be widely communicated to TSA employees.

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