Thoughts about John Taylor Gatto:

[Catherine]

I've just gotten Weapons of Mass Instruction out of the library, and am reading it; it's the first of his writing I've read. While I find it a thought-provoking book, I am wondering how valid his argument-that what he calls "open-source" learning is better than traditional, teacher-led learning is. I'm pretty sure he would consider our homeschool teacher-led : \

 

But what gives me pause is the argument that high school dropouts are our future inventors, entrepreneurs scientists and leaders. It's anecdotal-I personally know of zero high school dropouts who've managed any existence other than welfare, subsistence, and poverty. OK, so getting rich should not be the goal, I get that and agree. But the other side of the equation, the successful people who are excellent at what they do and leaders, all in my acquaintance are highly "conventionally" educated.

 

I guess I'm wishing as I read it that there could be some compromise path. Can't a child pursue interests and be instructed also? And in fact, he lets it slip (LOL) in the book that his daughter went to MIT. So isn't he a sellout? Why is dropping out and pursing dreams OK for us readers, but his kid is going to MIT?

 

Maybe I'm just feeling to contrarian to read this book today.

[Joker]

I liked Gatto. It's been a while since I've read one of his books though. I did want to comment that not all high school dropouts end up like you think. I am one. It was the very best thing I could have done because some schools are really just that bad. I have ended up having a very successful life that included college. My dh went to Berkeley and he wasn't "conventionally" educated either.

[Joy at Home]

I've just gotten Weapons of Mass Instruction out of the library, and am reading it; it's the first of his writing I've read. While I find it a thought-provoking book, I am wondering how valid his argument-that what he calls "open-source" learning is better than traditional, teacher-led learning is. I'm pretty sure he would consider our homeschool teacher-led : \

 

But what gives me pause is the argument that high school dropouts are our future inventors, entrepreneurs scientists and leaders. It's anecdotal-I personally know of zero high school dropouts who've managed any existence other than welfare, subsistence, and poverty. OK, so getting rich should not be the goal, I get that and agree. But the other side of the equation, the successful people who are excellent at what they do and leaders, all in my acquaintance are highly "conventionally" educated.

 

I guess I'm wishing as I read it that there could be some compromise path. Can't a child pursue interests and be instructed also? And in fact, he lets it slip (LOL) in the book that his daughter went to MIT. So isn't he a sellout? Why is dropping out and pursing dreams OK for us readers, but his kid is going to MIT?

 

Maybe I'm just feeling to contrarian to read this book today.

 

Hi Catherine!

 

I've only read his first book, but I think his strong opinions come from a purely public school perspective. In a homeschool, there has to be a compromise. He has been a long proponent of homeschooling, which provides for individualism that mass schooling doesn't.

[kitten18]

I haven't read that book.

 

I read Dumbing Us Down, 2.5 years ago. I had just pulled my DD out of preschool because of a temporary financial crisis. I had never really considered homeschooling but I decided I would do "preschool at home" (I used to teach middle school and preschool). So I went to the library and got some homeschooling books and happened to pick up Dumbing Us Down. I honestly don't remember the specifics of the book, I just know that I was :001_huh:, and as a former teacher, his observations really rang true for me. I just had this feeling of, "oh my goodness, I can't put my kids in school".

 

I don't know the specifics of his views now, I wonder if his views have become more extreme throughout the years?

[GoVanGogh]

But what gives me pause is the argument that high school dropouts are our future inventors, entrepreneurs scientists and leaders. It's anecdotal-I personally know of zero high school dropouts who've managed any existence other than welfare, subsistence, and poverty.

My dad raised six children. I begged him to let me drop out and he wouldn't agree to it. I hated school and never even attempted to do the work. I was passed along and graduated somewhere around 125 out of 130 students. I decided later in life that I wanted to go to college. I aced the entrance exam and went on to graduate top of my class. By the time my brother came along, my dad allowed him to drop out. He later went to college and is now very successful.

I think that Gatto's point (from having read all his books and attending his lectures in person) is that - for many children, our public school system is highly irrelevant. They are the children that 'think outside the box' and don't fit in with our current public school system where everyone must move along at the same speed, learning the same things.

My BIL - to this day - thinks that he is stupid because he failed public school. Yet he is an extremely successful electrician earning more than I could ever dream of.

 

If you read the book "Genius Denied," they state that something like 25% of high school dropouts are actually gifted, but 'bored' with school. Those are the dropouts that are going to find their gift in life and pursue it and be successful.

http://www.davidsongifted.org/default.aspx

 

So isn't he a sellout? Why is dropping out and pursing dreams OK for us readers, but his kid is going to MIT?

 

I think his point is - at the college level - you take whatever avenue leads you down the path you want to travel. For some, that will be MIT. For others, it will be a trade school.

Just my own 2 cents.

[Kel & the Kids]

Interesting. I just finished a book today called "I Can Learn Better by Myself" all about interest-led learning with several quotes by Gatto. And I really do appreciate the concept. I think the 1:1 nature of homeschooling almost automatically contributes to more of an interest/child led atmosphere than a classroom does no matter what. Although not to the extent some would like to see. Obviously we all learn better when it's something we're interested in and we are self motivated.

 

That being said, I'm firmly of the opinion that a balance of teacher led/child led learning is optimal in our homeschool. My kids so frequently blossom after learning something they didn't at first want to learn that I can't imagine robbing them of the experience by leaving them to their own devices :lol: For my kids anyway, they take little chunks of what they were "forced" to learn and turn them into wonderful projects that lead them to places I couldn't have taught them to go. It's quite inspiring to me!

 

This is my very singular opinion mind you and I expect there are other kids that this wouldn't work for; however in my mind a "balance" perhaps like what you were referring to is exactly what works the best here.

 

Hopefully what I've said makes sense I have to run to get a 5yo out of the bath whether she's "interested" in it or not :tongue_smilie:

[GoVanGogh]

In a homeschool, there has to be a compromise. He has been a long proponent of homeschooling, which provides for individualism that mass schooling doesn't.

Exactly.

I actually sat in on several of his lectures at an "unschooling" conference. But even in that format, he was extremely pro-homeschooling, no matter what method you followed.

[mcconnellboys]

I think the crux of Gatto is that children must be engaged in meaningful work in order for proper brain development to occur and maturation to take place. I think we've had conversations over the course of the past year related to various articles that have come out indicating that children are maturing later, remain more at loose ends for a longer period of time, etc., etc. All this may be related to the fact that children are often not allowed to engage in meaningful work from an early age as they were in an earlier time....

 

I tend to think that Gatto feels that this learning by doing is more important to brain development than simply learning from books. Within the confines of his own life he has seen one work to greater advantage for his own students as opposed to the other (I'm not really sure he's ever worked within a really good school system, however).....

 

I tend to think that both are equally important and that both avenues must be pursued simultaneously....

[zaichiki]

I think a lot of Gatto's ideas are good, but I think he's overly dramatic. Many people generalize his opinions. I know there are lots of things wrong with the NYC public school system (I used to teach in it), but there are also some schools with lots of good things happening. For many kids in the NYC public school system -- well -- it's the best thing they've got going on. My own dh was educated there. There are good opportunities. There are negative influences. Public school is not necessarily the kiss of death. Maybe many successful people have dropped out, but many others have done well in the public schools and gone on to some of the best colleges.

 

Anyway -- overly dramatic and overly generalized.

My opinion.

[Catherine]

I agree-public schools don't do at all well with the gifted, the learning disabled, the "square pegs". And he is totally right to malign the abysmal performance of the schools with these kinds of students. Maybe it's his emphasis on presenting only the dropout success stories that made me question the honesty of the book. All of the dropouts I personally know did not turn their departures into successes, not at all. Perhaps what I'd have appreciated is a more balanced, or nuanced presentation of his ideas.

 

Another passage that really makes me wonder: "School had to train in consumption habits: listening to others, moving on a bell of horn signal without questioning, becoming impressionable-more accurately, gullible-in order to do well on tests."

 

How are the things he describes "consumption habits"? I don't understand this.

 

Nevertheless it is a thought-provoking book and I'm very interested in what he has to say.

[angela in ohio]

I guess I'm wishing as I read it that there could be some compromise path.

 

Yes, there can be. But it doesn't sell books. :001_smile:

[zaichiki]

Yes, there can be. But it doesn't sell books. :001_smile:

 

Good point!

[kalanamak]

It was the very best thing I could have done because some schools are really just that bad.

 

(Let me preface this by saying I think Gatto is a touch weird, and haven't finished a book by him. His vids with the fake palms swaying in the background are even weirder, but who am I to talk....)

 

I left school at the end of my junior year. The next brother up didn't finish secondary to failing too much. The school system had gone horribly "mod" in the 20 years between my sister and me. I was talking to a woman 4 years older than me who went to the same school system (this is a couple thousand miles from where we live now) and she remembers the LAST diagrammer...an old English teacher in 9th grade, who retired 3 years before I got there. My sister remembers years of Latin (none when I got there). I got "new math" and absolutely no grammar whatsoever. Unfortunately, I lived in a town with a teacher's college, and everything educationally sane, IMO, turned up like jello-and-coleslaw vomit about 1968.

 

So, two non-grads in my family, one an attorney, the other an MD. I believe I'd have stayed and throve if I'd gone to a good school. And I wish I'd had the opportunity to return to the school counselor who raised his voice and called me a "loser for life" for leaving, and tell him I was only sorry I hadn't left the second I turned 16.

 

Instead of high school, I worked 48 hours a week for less than minimum wage, lived in a rented room, and haunted various university libraries, reading a couple of hundred pages a day for 4 years.

[Dandelion]

Another passage that really makes me wonder: "School had to train in consumption habits: listening to others, moving on a bell of horn signal without questioning, becoming impressionable-more accurately, gullible-in order to do well on tests."

 

How are the things he describes "consumption habits"? I don't understand this.

 

Nevertheless it is a thought-provoking book and I'm very interested in what he has to say.

 

I've read a few of Gatto's books (although I haven't read "Weapons of Mass Instruction") and have enjoyed them for the most part. As others have said, I've also interpreted his writings to be pro-homeschooling and have found lots there to support my homeschooling approach.

 

In terms of "consumption habits", I wonder if he's insinuating that schools teach kids to be "consumers" of learning instead of actually pursuing learning/knowledge on their own? In other words, traditionally schooled students become habituated to only taking in knowledge when it's delivered to them and in the form it's delivered to them (never questioning, never trying to dig deeper, etc.).

 

And I agree, his books are definitely thought-provoking...

[Peela]

It reminds me of getting advice from a very dear friend. I was complaining years ago to him about how difficult it is to teach my resistant son. He told me about his 2 sons at a basically unschooling school in Canada (cant remember the name of it but it is well known) and how well they have turned out. He strongly recommended I unschool my son- let him find what he wants to learn, dont give him a structured education. His 2 sons however were brought up by their mum and he had no say in their educaiton and little involvement in their life for those years (he has since they have become adults).

And..I really did buy it for a while...even though my instincts have always told me my son needs the structure I give him or he just wouldnt learn the basics.

Then I realised this friend's two younger children that are part of his life, go to school.

So....he is not living what he preaches.

 

So...it reminded me of Gatto. Its very cheap to give advice and another thing altogether to live by that advice yourself and speak from your experience. I did see him talk here in Australia a few years back and I found what he was saying to be very political and abstract and not of much practical use since he was not actually experienced in homeschooling himself. And, he was preaching to the converted.

 

Thats not to dismiss everything he says. I like a lot of it. I just learned to trust myself more and less the authorities.

[stripe]

Just as a point of interest, Gatto is an advisor to Kinza Academy, which offers a classical homeschooling curriculum.

 

I recently read on this blog about someone who saw him at a conference of some sort and was followed by Catherine Levison, who writes books about Charlotte Mason, and how they seemed to dovetail nicely.

[Rebecca VA]

I think by "consumption habits" he means that students learn to become passive -- not just in the education realm, but in every area of life. They're sheep waiting to be led. Gatto would like to see students take command of their lives and become doers and leaders.

[FaithManor]

My dad always maintained that when he went to highschool there were only five classes he took that challenged him in the slightest and for which he was willing to do the work. Trigonometry (he didn't bother doing any homework in the lower math classes but ACED every single exam given), two drafting classes, Latin, and physics. He was a logical, think outside the box, non-herd mentality. However, he went to a local, rural school in which the teachers knew their students. His principal knew dad did not need all of this work in order to learn the material....if he read it...he understood it. So, they put up with him just showing up to class to take tests. He graduated, albeit with less than stellar grades, aced the exams to get into the Air Force missle engineer program, and went into the A.F. He'd have made that a career if he hadn't been burned over 50% of his body by an exploding container of jet fuel that some ignoramus had stored improperly.

 

So, essentially, high school was rather irrelevant for him except those few courses which challenged him and he attended those classes everyday. He just skipped the rest.

 

I think that Gatto is just making the point that there isn't any individualized education within the system and that forcing kids who are bored out of their minds to stay in high school for four years does more damage than good with some personalities. Dad would have dropped out if they had not been so flexible.

 

I remember how hard it was even in my elementary years to spend the first six weeks of class "reviewing" last year's material when I didn't need it. Busy work for the sake of busy work and I think that this is the time in life where some kids "learn" herd behavior and just do whatever everyone else is doing, some become people pleasers and literally just do the work to become teacher's pet and get extra classroom privileges (ME!!!), and some look at the stupidity of it and rebel.

 

Faith

[NanceXToo]

I liked Gatto. It's been a while since I've read one of his books though. I did want to comment that not all high school dropouts end up like you think. I am one. It was the very best thing I could have done because some schools are really just that bad. I have ended up having a very successful life that included college. My dh went to Berkeley and he wasn't "conventionally" educated either.

 

I am a high school drop out. I then went on to get my GED, go to a two year business college (because I had a baby at age 18 (and one with developmental delays no less) and didn't see that I had "time for" a 4 plus year college), and ended up working as a legal secretary for pretty decent pay.

 

My husband is a high school drop out. He now owns his own small business and earns enough money that I can be a stay-at-home, homeschooling mom. We have everything we need and much of what we want. He's doing better than a lot of people we know who have college degrees and can't even find jobs in this market.

[Mimm]

It's anecdotal-I personally know of zero high school dropouts who've managed any existence other than welfare, subsistence, and poverty.

 

One of my brothers dropped out of high school. He works hard at his job, which is doing the same thing at the same company as my brother with a college degree in economics (bad timing on that degree). Sure, he struggles to make ends meet sometimes (who doesn't these days) but he is certainly not on welfare and not in poverty. So there's some anecdotal evidence that high school drop outs can support themselves. :)

[Carol in Cal.]

When Gatto describes his own education and experiences, it's clear that he benefitted quite a bit from structure and logical challenges. I'll never forget his description of when the Jesuits came to town and quizzed the kids--I think that that was in "The Underground History of American Education".

 

What I like most about Gatto is the way that he challenges all assumptions all the time, and the way he favors community over networks.

 

UHAE is what made me a homeschooler to the core. And, interestingly enough, a homeschooler at the core even if and when I have a child in school. I will NEVER unquestioningly accept any institutional claim on my child. I have CHOICE and RESPONSIBILITY all the doggone time, because I am the parent. I do not have to shut up and take it if 'it' is crazy.

 

Having said that, he's all over the map on what to do instead. His specific directions vary quite a bit. But that's OK in my view because I see him as encouraging me to figure out what is best for my specific child, not some random theoretical child from some book, and to confidently do that thing. And he is very good at pointing out the downside to various approaches to education so that in customizing your child's education to your own values and priorities and to the best for that specific child you have food for thought in figuring out how best to go about it.

[stripe]

So there's some anecdotal evidence that high school drop outs can support themselves. :)

DIY U has some other examples (book and website). I think it's a book worth looking into by homeschoolers for her ideas of "outside the box" educational experiences; homeschooling is, by definition, not the regular route. Many people are using college not for what they learn there, but as some sort of proof that they are literate.

 

My grandma is a high school dropout, and she is one of the most interesting, curious people I know. She is self-educated.

[Catherine]

All of that stuff, I support fully. I must admit, as a homeschooler I've been reluctant to strongly encourage my kids, particularly my eldest, to take risks, I think because he is a kid who benefits from the status quo: he's an excellent test taker, quick learner, very mature person, so can do just fine within the conventional college-to-job world. And, I'm a bit anxious about risk taking! Not for myself, but for them. Letting him leave for Germany for a year-long exchange program was very difficult for me, partly because of my fears of what might happen while traveling, etc.

 

Yes, I can see that the issue of "school" for him has everything to do with the bureaucracy, expense, and alienation, and nothing to do with structure, rigor, curriculum, etc. I'd consider the book "musings", whereas an actual conversation with him would probably be more nuanced and less polemical.

[LizzyBee]

I think some drop outs are so demoralized by their school experience that they don't have the guts to pursue their dreams. And no doubt, some are just lazy, don't want to do school work, don't want to do real work.

 

OTOH, I had a client when I lived in MD who was a high school drop out and a multimillionaire (net worth of $33 million when I moved away). He didn't bother to change out his muddy boots when he went to meetings with his accountant, lawyer, or broker. That's when he bothered to show up for the meetings. He much prefers moving dirt with big machines to attending boring meetings in sterile conference rooms. :tongue_smilie: He's the kind of guy of think of in regard to Gatto's comments.

[coralloyd]

I would just like to tell you my dh's story. He went to 11 different high schools (was kicked out of each one). School was a waste of his time. He was board out of his skull. This caused him to get in a lot of trouble. He ended up testing out of high school, and they gave him a diploma. Fast forward to today; he owns 4 different businesses, and we just paid for a new car and rv cash. He is a self learner, and never went to college of any kind. So I'm not saying that I agree with Gatto on everything, but I get where he's coming from on this one.

[tricia]

I really like him too. I've read several of his books and thus far I agree with nearly everything he said. As far as his daughter doing what she did only suggests that she had great leadership in her life. As far as the dropouts go, they too could be successful with great leadership. That's really what it all boils down to. As for me, I barely graduated and would definitely consider myself a high school dropout if you go by my mind and heart. I dropped out probably way back in elementary school. Now, as a homeschool mom with 12 kids and 5 homeschool grads of which all 5 have gone or are going to college I have learned that it is indeed atmosphere, love, exposure to the best life has to offer and any other good thing a parent wishes to give their child is indeed what lands "success" in a child. A teacher could do the same thing too if she or he were dedicated enough. Sadly, that isn't the case in most schools today, if not all of them. It's about how and with what the child grows up with. Indeed there are some homeschooled children who are extremely problematic for the same reason. Negative upbringing and poor leadership, exposure to all the wrong things perhaps such as bad tv, poor literature, non nutritive foods, etc. all these things and more can negatively effect a nurturing child and therefore the results may well be life not as productive as society and family would like.

[justamouse]

I love Gatto. If you can, look up his lectures on youtube.

 

Dh and I were talking about this while hiking-this exact same thing. He was speaking to a professor and the professor stated that many entrepreneurs never went to college.

 

Why? It didn't fit them and they were successful because they had no safety net of a college degree. The professor said that the degree will get you a great job that pays well, but you'll most likely be a time puncher, whereas if you're going to be an an entrepreneur you'll be much more well rounded-because you have to be. You'll work harder-because you have to.

 

My dh never finished his degree and I never went apart from a few courses that I never use. We have a very blessed life, just say'n. We worked harder than many couples we knew, we sacrificed more than many people we know and we're more successful. We HAD to. We have seven kids and nothing but ourselves to fall back on. We took HUGE risks. Starting our business was --looking back now ---people must have been freaked out. We had nothing when we started. We formed an LLC, sold stocks and opened up with nothing but a hope and a prayer and a really solid support system (My dh got personal training by one of the best in the business and it wasn't luck that it happened that way).

 

Even now we're cooking up new businesses all the time. "How can we do ___." I think we have four or five now and one in the works but a much slower starter. I often think of going back to school for psych or teaching, but I'm having way too much fun now and I don't want to stop doing what I'm doing to take the classes. I eventually may look into life credits.

 

If I would ahve been allowed to drop out I would have. I hated HS with a passion. But I can look back now and see where I had talent and should have used it in different directions had I the time and encouragement. I want to be that for my kids.

[justamouse]

Ohh and I forgot my bestest HS dropout story.

 

She's the sister of a best HS friend. Dropped out at 16 to her parents cursing and screaming. Went to work for a huge title company in Manhattan. Years later ended up OWNING the company and owning a house out in the Hamptons.

 

She never went back to college, and never got her GED. And, to boot, she's drop dead model gorgeous.