Why we don't need more women in tech... yet

[Tabula Rasa]

Article: Why We Don't Need More Women in Tech... Yet

 

http://jolieodell.wordpress.com/2010/09/07/women-in-tech/

 

The article argues that instead of solving the gender inequality in computer science careers by grouping non-technical positions, which women form a significant part of, with the technical positions that men dominate creating an illusion of equality that ignores the real reason behind the inequality and instead focus on how we raise our little girls. The author argues that there are not enough competent women engineers and programmers to achieve equality in the field because of limits placed on the toys little girls grow up with.

 

Interesting article. I tend to agree that we need to expose our little girls to more options. What are your thoughts on this?

[cathmom]

It's just like mechanics. I don't think I've ever met or even heard of a female mechanic, but pretty much all the women I know drive cars.

[kalanamak]

It's just like mechanics. I don't think I've ever met or even heard of a female mechanic, but pretty much all the women I know drive cars.

 

I did nine months of Vo-Tech auto mechanics (which, emotionally, was tough...small town 1970s) and put myself through school doing brakes, clutches, etc. I took welding at night, but never used it for anything but to help people with artwork.

 

There was a female mechanic at the VW shop where I went to college.

 

I ended up selling all my tools to move to NYC to work on an advanced degree. Sure has come in handy when some BOzo is trying to convince me master cylinder on the firewall is for the brakes, and the one next to it, for the clutch, is the SLAVE cylinder, "afta all, what kinda system could have TWO masters?" (True story).

 

But then, I always 99o/oile'd on mechanical reasoning.

 

The honcho programmer at work is female. She was a programmer for the airforce some years back. The next tier down has a woman, and the tier down after that is half female. The "installers" even have some women.

[vonfirmath]

*shrugs* Or maybe the women choose other things? I had the Legos, the hot wheels, the Commodore 64 growing up. I bought an adventure construction set and taught myself how to program

 

I went to college to get a degree in Computer Engineering...

 

and now I'm working an administrative job and trying to work myself OUT of a job so I can go home and be a mommy and homeschool.

[Peela]

I dont know how equal the opportunities really are....but what is wrong with gender biases in different careers anyway? Arent women and men naturally going to be attracted to different things due to their gender differences? Is there a problem with that? As long as those women who actually want to be engineers can be, and the men who want to be nurses, can be.....I dont see the problem.

[Scarlett]

I dont know how equal the opportunities really are....but what is wrong with gender biases in different careers anyway? Arent women and men naturally going to be attracted to different things due to their gender differences? Is there a problem with that? As long as those women who actually want to be engineers can be, and the men who want to be nurses, can be.....I dont see the problem.

 

EXACTLY!!! Well said!

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

but what is wrong with gender biases in different careers anyway? Arent women and men naturally going to be attracted to different things due to their gender differences? Is there a problem with that?

 

Ah yes, there is a problem with that, not at the individual level, but at the profession level. Women and men bring different things to the table. They think differently. In engineering women will tend to solve problems in a much different way, they are (stereotypically) more into compromises, they care more about the customers. Men tend to be big problem solvers without caring about the consequences (again, I'm steretyping here). A good balanced team will require both genders nowadays, hopefully close to 50-50.

 

I'm a woman engineer, and worked in computers. I installed networks in hotels, climbing into the ceiling (i was the lightest on the team and the most nimber). There's a hotel in Quebec City where I know the ceilings inside out ;-)

 

I was once part of a programming team that was all female with a male leader. At the time, DH was part of a male team with a female leader. Neither team was balanced, and it was hard work (although his team was better than mine).

 

BTW, I dont remember any of my female engineering students ever mentionned playing with dolls. It was all Legos, and chemistry kits.

[ChrissySC]

Hmm, I did not read the article, but I am under the impression that it is believed we as women were not raised to dominate the technical fields? Where are they gathering their information?

 

I am an Information Technology Director. I have been in the computer sciences field for many, many years. I am a programmer, windows apps and web apps, as well as network admin. (design, implementation and management). In addition, I provide consulting for local businesses.

 

So, with that said, I run into women in our field every day. Also, I have never been treated differently because of my gender. In the "geek" world, it is your brain not your b**bs that men stare at!

 

If you want any child to succeed in a science-oriented or science-based field, you must teach them to communicate and stress math. I'm sorry, but some of these flimsy hs programs are not adequate enough. As for basic science, handson is the only way to go. You cannot read through science. You do science. This is my biggest complaint with both hs and ps.

 

Well, I am configuring a mail exchange server at present this morning as well as getting everyone ready for IMAP configurations on their mobile devices so forgive the spelling and incomplete sentences! Let's not even talk about the NAS system that needs to be put in place over the next few weeks or the noise in the lines at another branch. ;) Anyone got a man I can borrow?

[Impish]

I dont know how equal the opportunities really are....but what is wrong with gender biases in different careers anyway? Arent women and men naturally going to be attracted to different things due to their gender differences? Is there a problem with that? As long as those women who actually want to be engineers can be, and the men who want to be nurses, can be.....I dont see the problem.

:iagree:

I don't know of anyone that raises their kids by gender alone.

 

Princess loves dump trucks. She has her own.

 

Tazzie has a doll.

 

We look for our kids interests, and go from there. Princess loves Duplo, and will likely be our 'Leggo' kid once she's a bit older. She loves dolls too, so has them as well.

 

I don't know of anyone that restricts their child's playthings or interests by saying, "But you're a girl/boy! You can't play with that!"

 

I think part of the problem is the demand for 50-50 in all walks of life and careers. So what if there isn't 50% of women in engineering. Women, and men should be allowed to pursue what they want, regardless of statistics.

[vonfirmath]

BTW, I dont remember any of my female engineering students ever mentionned playing with dolls. It was all Legos, and chemistry kits.

 

I had the Legos, a chemistry set, Electronic sets. And Little People. And dolls. -- Jenny dolls/Skipper, Mandy Dolls, and a dollhouse my dad and mom built together from a kit!

 

Oh and I used Lego people as the "babies" in the dollhouse sized

[dirty ethel rackham]

I didn't read the article, but did a talk on gender differences in education for a home school conference last year. I found a plethora of material on girls and math and science. One of the key factors in talented girls not going on to STEM fields is cultural. Statistically, when a boy is struggling with algebra, he is encouraged to try harder, keep working at it and finally master it. When a similarly talented girl runs into the same struggle, she is much more likely allowed to take less math in the future. So, we are often shutting doors without realizing it.

[Mimm]

My husband's aunt and uncle are both scientists and both their kids, a boy and a girl, are majoring in electrical engineering in college. I asked him a couple months ago when they were down here visiting, "So, how do you raise engineers?" He just shook his head and said, "I wish I knew." So do I.

 

And hey, I played with dolls a lot growing up, but I was nine years older than my oldest sister with three brothers in between, so I ended up playing with a lot of boy toys. And I'm into art.

 

On the other hand, my nine year old is a serious geek-in-training. She once with to Barnes and Noble with a gift card and bought herself a thick book on bugs. She would read it before bed each night! She was once reading me something out of it then said, "Here, look at the picture... isn't it beautiful?" :confused::confused::confused: It's a bug!! But I've resolved to do a lot more sciencey stuff with her because she loves it so much.

[Carol in Cal.]

I actually think that the toy thing is somewhat valid.

 

I think that it behooves us to get our girls boy toys (OK, not THAT kind) as well as girl toys. It's valuable to have familiarity with tools and with 3d work as a child--to play with blocks and build things--to learn how it feels to hit a nail with a hammer--etc.

 

I also think that in general, encouraging effort and persistence is good for all children. Encouraging girls to give up rather than trying other approaches to math or science is not helpful.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I don't know of anyone that restricts their child's playthings or interests by saying, "But you're a girl/boy! You can't play with that!"

 

 

Well, I know many who won't let their boys play with obvious girl toys. Won't buy a Barbie for their boys, although they will buy whatever for their girls.

[Mary in VA]

what is wrong with gender biases in different careers anyway? Arent women and men naturally going to be attracted to different things due to their gender differences? Is there a problem with that? As long as those women who actually want to be engineers can be, and the men who want to be nurses, can be.....I dont see the problem.

:iagree:

 

Both my dds are great at math, naturally are great logical problem solvers, BUT they HATE math. The 20 yo is an elementary education major and the 15 yo is an artist/dancer/musician. They have/will take math up to Funcitions, Statistics and Trig, but no farther because they are not drawn in a math/engineering/science direction. I think those fields should be encouraged for those who desire it, but a larger percentage of females are not naturally drawn into those directions. My dds have the capabilities, but not the desire. And they both had dolls, Barbies, legos, duplos, Lincoln Logs, microscopes, etc. I don't know of any families that limits their children's toys based on gender. Except maybe a few boys who don't have dolls. But I haven't seen any of the boys wanting dolls.

 

Mary

Edited September 8, 2010 by Mary in VA

[Jenny in Atl]

Well, I know many who won't let their boys play with obvious girl toys. Won't buy a Barbie for their boys, although they will buy whatever for their girls.

 

When my BIL was little he loved fashion and dolls. His father would tell him to stop acting like a "fa**ot".

 

He's now a lawyer. :lol:

[Rivka]

The research on sex differences shows that the biological differences are very small - but those biological differences are magnified by different experiences and different cultural messages until, by adulthood, there appear to be large "natural" differences.

 

Boys and girls are treated differently from birth. Researchers took the same babies and dressed them in a pink sleeper half the time, and a blue sleeper the other half the time. Adults asked to interact with the babies described them differently: the pink baby was "sweet" and "delicate," the blue baby "strong" and "active." They held them differently: the pink baby cradled close for eye-to-eye contact, the blue baby faced outward to see the world. Given a range of toys, they offered the pink baby the doll more often, the blue baby the football more often. And the majority of the adults swore that they treated boy and girl babies exactly the same. They had no idea that they were behaving differently depending on what sex they thought the baby was.

 

If those people are doing the same things at home, and so is everyone else their children encounter, is it really surprising that the boys seem to "naturally" prefer trucks and the girls "naturally" prefer toy kitchens? And is it really surprising that after a childhood spent with nurturing toys instead of visuospatial toys, a girl decides in high school that she just doesn't seem to have much aptitude for engineering or math?

 

I do agree that equality of opportunity will not necessary mean 50% representation in the final profession. But I think it's naive to say that males and females have equal opportunity to enter professions dominated by the opposite sex. I am one of a very few female faculty members in a male-dominated research institute. Sexist comments are pretty frequent, and so is a general heckling attitude - when someone gets up to present their research, other people make jokes and put-downs. It's a very adolescent-male atmosphere. They didn't not hire me because I'm a woman, and they wouldn't fire me because I'm a woman, but I can definitely see why the frat-boy atmosphere would make a lot of women uncomfortable enough to "decide on their own" to leave.

[Impish]

I don't think that would work. It ignores the pure fact that, while women are just as competent in those male dominated jobs, less women want to do those jobs.

 

Can women do tech jobs, mechanic jobs, engineering jobs? - yes, unequivocally. The barriers to education and job placement are mostly gone. there are wonderful examples of women in these fields at every company across this country. However, striving for/demanding/expecting there to be a 50/50 gender split is unrealistic because less women want to be mechanics, engineers and IT people.

 

Do we get all upset that there isn't gender equality in nursing? (my bil is an excellent nurse btw) or teaching? childcare? How about staying home with the kids? Where is the outrage about how disadvantaged men are in these fields?

 

Everyone should have the opportunity if they want it and can do the work, but equal opportunity isn't the same as equal results. when will everyone just understand that basic fact and get over it!?

 

btw, my 9 yo dd is learning basic programing and says she wants to be an EMT or a nurse. My son is an amazing artist who loves physics and wants to fly jets. My little one wants to be a princess. It takes all kinds.

:hurray::hurray::hurray:

[mommaduck]

*shrugs* Or maybe the women choose other things? I had the Legos, the hot wheels, the Commodore 64 growing up. I bought an adventure construction set and taught myself how to program

 

I went to college to get a degree in Computer Engineering...

 

and now I'm working an administrative job and trying to work myself OUT of a job so I can go home and be a mommy and homeschool.

Same here...grew up in a tech household, loved my legos and matchbox cars (best toys any kid could have), and still was a girly girl.

[cathmom]

I think more women should be in tech because then that product wouldn't be called that dumb name the iPad!!!

[Tabula Rasa]

I agree that equality shouldn't mean 50/50 dispersion between genders. Nor does it mean we should be forcing our little girls into a technical career path with toy indoctrination. The best in my opinion is choices of playthings indifferent to gender. But peer influence can be a major factor in what children view as appropriate future career choices. What do you think a boy that tells his friends he wants to grow up to be a nurse is called by his peers?

 

The article had some statistics that showed that the percentage of females majoring in a technical field have been decreasing these past years. The quoted research indicates that less women are choosing technical careers and the author asserted that it was because of culture influences, which I tend to agree with.

 

Homeschooling, I believe, can have a significant influence on the culture surrounding our children. Being the geek or nerd girl still isn't cool (well it is to the geeky and nerdy guys, but not my point.) I do think society does treat women and men differently when it comes to careers.

[WishboneDawn]

I don't know of anyone that restricts their child's playthings or interests by saying, "But you're a girl/boy! You can't play with that!"

 

I don't think that's what most mean by gender differences though. Generally the discussion around such things involves things more subtle. Maybe you don't buy your boy gender-exclusive toys for instance but maybe send him off with Dad when Dad's doing yardwork more then you do you daughter. I KNOW I do this. I know I treat my two kids differently based on many factors and gender, despite me trying not to, is one of those. I tend to justify it by saying, well, my daughter IS the older one so of course she's the one I ask to do laundry but I think in the end it comes down more to my expectations of them based on gender. Even if it's not so much thinking that my son shouldn't do laundry because it's a girl thing but rather because he's a rough-and-tumble boy that wouldn't be careful enough when emptying the dryer.

 

For the record, as I notice the biases I try to correct them. My son does indeed do much of the laundry now. :)

 

And we're not the only influence on our kids. Walk through a toy aisle. You'll see Barbies and baby dolls in aisles of pink while "boy" doll are segregated into seperate sections with a whole different colour scheme. The message isn't that all dolls are open to both genders. The message it that the dolls for girls are here and the ones, by default, that are for boys are in a different section. I didn't notice this so much with my daughter who was happy anywhere in a toy store but my son picked up pretty fast that it would be horrible for him to be found in a "girl" aisle.

[WishboneDawn]

I didn't read the article, but did a talk on gender differences in education for a home school conference last year. I found a plethora of material on girls and math and science. One of the key factors in talented girls not going on to STEM fields is cultural. Statistically, when a boy is struggling with algebra, he is encouraged to try harder, keep working at it and finally master it. When a similarly talented girl runs into the same struggle, she is much more likely allowed to take less math in the future. So, we are often shutting doors without realizing it.

 

Exactly! People think the issue is with the big, obvious stuff. So they dismiss the role of culture or how they parent and chalk it up to inherent differences. It's not the big stuff. It's the little everyday things we do, sometimes without noticing it. It's the way I'll get frustrated and push my daughter to improve her writing while I'll chalk up my boys lack of neatness up to being a later-developing boy. Or the way I'll talk about my son's big mechanic hands and my daughter's dainty violin-playing hands.

[Mommy22alyns]

 

Do we get all upset that there isn't gender equality in nursing? (my bil is an excellent nurse btw) or teaching? childcare? How about staying home with the kids? Where is the outrage about how disadvantaged men are in these fields?

 

 

 

You know why there's no outrage about men being "disadvantaged" in those areas? They're all overworked, underpaid, and largely underappreciated.

[Rivka]

I don't think that's what most mean by gender differences though. Generally the discussion around such things involves things more subtle. Maybe you don't buy your boy gender-exclusive toys for instance but maybe send him off with Dad when Dad's doing yardwork more then you do you daughter. I KNOW I do this. I know I treat my two kids differently based on many factors and gender, despite me trying not to, is one of those. I tend to justify it by saying, well, my daughter IS the older one so of course she's the one I ask to do laundry but I think in the end it comes down more to my expectations of them based on gender. Even if it's not so much thinking that my son shouldn't do laundry because it's a girl thing but rather because he's a rough-and-tumble boy that wouldn't be careful enough when emptying the dryer.

 

For the record, as I notice the biases I try to correct them. My son does indeed do much of the laundry now. :)

 

And we're not the only influence on our kids. Walk through a toy aisle. You'll see Barbies and baby dolls in aisles of pink while "boy" doll are segregated into seperate sections with a whole different colour scheme. The message isn't that all dolls are open to both genders. The message it that the dolls for girls are here and the ones, by default, that are for boys are in a different section. I didn't notice this so much with my daughter who was happy anywhere in a toy store but my son picked up pretty fast that it would be horrible for him to be found in a "girl" aisle.

 

:iagree:

 

There is not-so-subtle stuff that happens. Every time my MIL saw my daughter playing with blocks or trains she suggested that they have a tea party, or offered her a doll. (I have a hilarious photo of 2-year-old Alex building something complicated out of blocks with her back turned to Nana, who is behind her futilely holding out a baby doll.) But yes, much of the time it's more subtle than that.

 

I am a serious feminist. But when I was sorting out my daughter's old baby clothes to see what could be used for my son, I got rid of almost all the pink. I had happily put her in blue overalls with doggies on them, but I froze at the idea of putting him in a petal-pink sleeper. And when he dresses up in his sister's princess dresses, which he loves to do, while most of me is cooing at the adorability there's still part of me that feels uncomfortable. (What if people tease him? What if they think I'm such a big feminist that I'm trying to feminize him?)

 

How good am I at hiding that from him? At 1.5 he doesn't notice, but how about at 3?

 

I do have some hopes for progress. Twenty years ago the party line on gender differences was that only girls are interested in babies and little children. These days, when we go to church, the group of big kids who follow my toddler around loving on him and interacting with him are mostly boys. They've grown up with involved fathers, and they don't know any different. My son, cradling his baby doll and bringing it to me to nurse, is probably going to turn out the same way. Yay.

[Leav97]

 

I don't know of anyone that restricts their child's playthings or interests by saying, "But you're a girl/boy! You can't play with that!"

 

 

I do.

[mommaduck]

I think more women should be in tech because then that product wouldn't be called that dumb name the iPad!!!

Is that tech or advertising? I agree, that whomever they hired to help come up with that name should be fired.

 

But boy did the WAHM's have fun with it ;)

 

http://www.thedesigntown.com/new_product_images/imaxi-l.jpg

[UnsinkableKristen]

I don't think that would work. It ignores the pure fact that, while women are just as competent in those male dominated jobs, less women want to do those jobs.

 

Can women do tech jobs, mechanic jobs, engineering jobs? - yes, unequivocally. The barriers to education and job placement are mostly gone. there are wonderful examples of women in these fields at every company across this country. However, striving for/demanding/expecting there to be a 50/50 gender split is unrealistic because less women want to be mechanics, engineers and IT people.

 

Do we get all upset that there isn't gender equality in nursing? (my bil is an excellent nurse btw) or teaching? childcare? How about staying home with the kids? Where is the outrage about how disadvantaged men are in these fields?

 

Everyone should have the opportunity if they want it and can do the work, but equal opportunity isn't the same as equal results. when will everyone just understand that basic fact and get over it!?

 

btw, my 9 yo dd is learning basic programing and says she wants to be an EMT or a nurse. My son is an amazing artist who loves physics and wants to fly jets. My little one wants to be a princess. It takes all kinds.

 

:iagree:

 

Very, very well said.

[Parrothead]

I actually think that the toy thing is somewhat valid.

 

I think that it behooves us to get our girls boy toys (OK, not THAT kind) as well as girl toys. It's valuable to have familiarity with tools and with 3d work as a child--to play with blocks and build things--to learn how it feels to hit a nail with a hammer--etc.

 

I also think that in general, encouraging effort and persistence is good for all children. Encouraging girls to give up rather than trying other approaches to math or science is not helpful.

I tried from day one. Dd had trucks, legos, tinker toys. When she was old enough to figure it out on her own, 2.5-3-years old, she flat out told me she did not want to play with the boy toys.

 

She does love science and doing science, but she does not want to play with trucks. She sees blocks and tools as gender neutral.

[nono]

Hmm, I did not read the article, but I am under the impression that it is believed we as women were not raised to dominate the technical fields? Where are they gathering their information?

 

I am an Information Technology Director. I have been in the computer sciences field for many, many years. I am a programmer, windows apps and web apps, as well as network admin. (design, implementation and management). In addition, I provide consulting for local businesses.

 

So, with that said, I run into women in our field every day. Also, I have never been treated differently because of my gender. In the "geek" world, it is your brain not your b**bs that men stare at!

 

 

 

Agreed. I worked for a major tech company, and women made up a whole lot of the workforce. However, when the national sales meeting was over, and the technical meetings started, I knew there'd be no more lines in the ladies bathroom. ;) Yes, there were women programmers, technology specialists, systems engineers and the like, but we were no more than 15% of the total group of "techies." (more like 10%) Granted it has been 5 years since I retired, so it could have changed.

 

Everyone in my family loves math. It's a requirement. :tongue_smilie: Seriously, none of us are biologicially related, so there must be something in our environment that encourages this love. I have no idea what it is exactly!

[Leav97]

Agreed. I worked for a major tech company, and women made up a whole lot of the workforce. However, when the national sales meeting was over, and the technical meetings started, I knew there'd be no more lines in the ladies bathroom. ;) Yes, there were women programmers, technology specialists, systems engineers and the like, but we were no more than 15% of the total group of "techies." (more like 10%) Granted it has been 5 years since I retired, so it could have changed.

 

 

This has been my experience as well. Try going to a tech conference sometime. 90%-98% male I could have a 20 stall bathroom to myself at a conference of 14,000

[Carol in Cal.]

I tried from day one. Dd had trucks, legos, tinker toys. When she was old enough to figure it out on her own, 2.5-3-years old, she flat out told me she did not want to play with the boy toys.

 

She does love science and doing science, but she does not want to play with trucks. She sees blocks and tools as gender neutral.

 

But see, this is exactly what I would hope for.

She sees blocks and tools as gender neutral. That would not have been likely under a 'the pink aisle is where all her toys come from' scenerio. If she is comfortable working with tools, and gains experience with 3d work at an early age, that is wonderful progress.