I think I've uncovered a weakness in MCT

[EKS]

My son, who got *all* of the questions on the language portion of the ITBS correct last year (and the test was a year ahead of his grade by age), just completely BOMBED the capitalization subtest this year. I am bracing for the punctuation subtest tomorrow...

 

We will be adding daily capitalization/punctuation practice to our routine next year. I'm thinking of using Daily Grams. Does anyone have any other suggestions?

[LanaTron]

copywork/dictation...my ds is in the Island level, and also using WWE...I think they complement each other nicely.

[....]

Yep. This is exactly why I supplement with cle. I haven't found a program that covers everything I need it to. MCT is awesome but there's nothing wrong with supplementing.

[Ali in OR]

We're picking up MCT but we aren't dropping R&S. Capitalization is one thing my dd needs to be reminded about continually.

[creekmom]

I'm not sure how old your son is, but I copied a link that has free editing sheets for grades 2-4.

 

http://www.educationworld.com/a_lesson/archives/animalsAtoZ.shtml

[jg_puppy]

We're picking up MCT but we aren't dropping R&S. Capitalization is one thing my dd needs to be reminded about continually.

 

Have you started this? If so how are you doing this. I am considering using MCT to introduce topics and then using Rod and Staff for additional review and practice.

 

Jan

[Capt_Uhura]

I have my boys do a daily edit workbook. it covers all sorts of topics: capitalization, sub-verb disagreement, irregular plurals, plurals, punctuation, letters, etc.

 

We also do WWE so that covers punctuation and spelling as well although we still do How To Teach Spelling to cement rules we learned from SWR.

[Gratia271]

You can use Evan Moor's Daily Paragraph Editing series. It is one paragraph per day 4 times weekly.

 

http://www.rainbowresource.com/prodlist.php?sid=1273083385-1985939&subject=7&category=1829

[patchfire]

You can use Evan Moor's Daily Paragraph Editing series. It is one paragraph per day 4 times weekly.

 

http://www.rainbowresource.com/prodlist.php?sid=1273083385-1985939&subject=7&category=1829

 

This is what we use, though dd likes Editor in Chief better (I like the price of DPE!).

[Lori D.]

CONSUMABLE WORKBOOKS

- Take 5 Minutes: A History Fact a Day for Editing (proofreading)

- Editor in Chief (proofreading)

 

 

NON CONSUMABLE BOOK

- Grammar with a Giggle (Kiester)

Grammar as a "bite" a day in a fun continuing story; includes punctuation and capitalization; vocabulary; word usage; other grammar review.

 

 

FREE ONLINE GAMES:

- Punctuation Paintball (punctuation)

- Harcourt (punctuation)

 

- Eduplace: Power Proofreading (proofreading)

Harcourt (proofreading)

 

- Flash Games (variety of grammar topics)

- Game Zone (variety of grammar topics)

 

 

WORKSHEETS: EduHelper Build Your Own Worksheets (gr. 1-6):

- Proofreading

- Capitalization

- Commas

- Apostrophes

- Contractions

- Quotation Marks

- Capitalization/Punctation Reviews

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

My son, who got *all* of the questions on the language portion of the ITBS correct last year (and the test was a year ahead of his grade by age), just completely BOMBED the capitalization subtest this year. I am bracing for the punctuation subtest tomorrow...

 

We will be adding daily capitalization/punctuation practice to our routine next year. I'm thinking of using Daily Grams. Does anyone have any other suggestions?

 

I opened this thread sooooo expecting that this was going to be a tongue-in-cheek joke that actually revealed some new and wonderful revelation about how the curriculum just continues to amaze you. I'm a bit bummed! :lol:

 

Thanks for the info though!

[danybug]

My ds just got back his Stanford results back and he had perfect scores in most of the language sections. We started using MCT this year, coming from Daily Grams. We are still using both and I actually think that Daily Grams covers more of what we saw throughout the testing. I am not completely sold on MCT, and I know this is not a good opinion to have on here ;)

[rafiki]

.

[KarenNC]

Well, we'll have to see how it works out for us as we have just started the Town level. So far I haven't found *any* program that will get my daughter consistently properly doing the mechanics of grammar.

 

My daughter is a very bright 9.5 yo, extremely good (and voracious) reader, extremely good comprehension, has had consistent exposure to all sorts of literature (both written and auditorily) and is capable of writing very complex stories when she desires. She tests very well on both the ITBS and Woodcock Johnson, well above grade level in all but the mechanics (punctuation and capitalization). She has been through FLL, 2 (or is it 3) years of Growing with Grammar, HWOT cursive and print workbooks, WWE level 3 workbook, and more. We have worked on grammar for the past 4 years. She *still* does not punctuate or capitalize correctly consistently (nor does she correctly identify basic parts of speech, etc):banghead:. I'm really hopeful that MCT will help it stick in this respect because the approach is different.

 

I'm afraid, in our case, "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not within our [programs], but in ourselves........"

[Ellie]

I wouldn't add Daily Grams if all you're wanting to practice is capitalization and punctuation. That's something you should be able to address by correcting those mistakes in everything that he writes, in every subject.

[cottagechick]

I guess I'm not super surprised....SWB mentioned something along these lines in her A Plan for Writing talks. She said spelling and grammar don't translate to their writing (testing may be the same?) till into the logic stage.

 

It's been my experience with my olders (now graduated and both working in editing and writing), that grammar and spelling rules didn't congeal until 6th grade or so. My middles are in high school and still sometimes flub up.

 

Grammar and spelling are skills that, according to SWB, need constant drill even thru early rhetoric for some kids. They are not intuitive or natural, and are not learned easily thru osmosis. I must say, in my experience, I must agree. Both my olders were voracious readers, excellent creative writers, natural spellers, and diligent in schoolwork. They both took many years to learn and then use grammar skills naturally and consistently.

 

I'm considering MCT for my rising 5th and 3rd graders, but it would suppliment WWE and logic writing strategies....at which point I must ask myself "why spend that kind of money for a suppliment when I know it's not really necessary in the long run"...

 

Anyway, it may not be the program at all, but simply his age.

 

peace.

cindy:)

[Ali in OR]

Have you started this? If so how are you doing this. I am considering using MCT to introduce topics and then using Rod and Staff for additional review and practice.

 

Jan

 

We've used R&S both last year and this year. The MCT is new. Dd is finishing up R&S 4 and will do 5 next year and I bought the town level MCT stuff in January. I thought I would just do the MCT stuff over a year and a half--I'm in no rush to get to Voyage level--so for the second half of this year we've mostly been just trying it out. We did 2 chapters of Caesar's English. I'm actually excited to do CE, but decided that we would do that as a regular thing next year so we stopped after 2 chapters. We did Grammar Town very slowly and just finished it a week or two ago. We are now going through the Building Poetry Book. Haven't started Practice Town or Paragraph Town. I know I want to focus on Paragraph Town next year but I would like to start looking at it to see if it will be sufficient for writing. We should do a little bit of Practice Town over the next few weeks just to solidify what we read about in Grammar Town.

 

Anyway, while all of this will be going on, we'll just keep plugging away at R&S--about 4 lessons per week. We usually do it orally unless there is diagramming or something new or important enough that I think dd needs to write it out. Since we get grammar in more than one place (did Writing Tales this year, get a little in Latin), this has been fine for us.

 

MCT really does things differently than R&S. I think it's easiest for me to just do each as its own thing and not try to line them up. That's pretty much how grammar has worked with our other courses. "Oh we've seen this before in Writing Tales, remember?" "Oh it's a predicate noun in R&S but we call that Predicate nominative in Latin." Etc.

[Capt_Uhura]

IMHO, I wouldn't call it a weakness in MCT. When I consider who the audience for MCT was for initially, public school kids, it makes sense. What were they not getting? Grammar instruction. A love of writing and the written word. THat is the void MCT was trying to fill. I would bet they got plenty of capitalization/punctuation. I know they started on that in K when my son was in PS but nope, no grammar. I think those skills are best worked on separately from MCT through copywork and dictation and correcting errors in DC's own writing. I do WWE along w/ MCT Island and it works perfectly together. We did finish up GWG 4 from last year and that worked well as a refresher as someone mentioned...not lining them up but it just so happened the new topics in GWG came after we covered them in GI.

 

The grammar topics that MCT does cover, I've seen terrific retention. The practice workbooks are where the long term retention is accomplished. Reminds me of SWB's being pecked to death by ducks method....small doses over and over and over gets the job done.

 

Capt_Uhura

[Melissa B]

I dictate each of the 100 practice sentences to my dds. We have the teacher's book only - no student workbook. They write each sentence on a white board. We go over spelling, capitalization and punctuation before they analyze the sentence.

[nmoira]

copywork/dictation

:iagree:

And incidental correction as errors present themselves. I don't yet assign writing, but DD the Elder will ask me to help her proofread her stories and poems.

[Matryoshka]

copywork/dictation...my ds is in the Island level, and also using WWE...I think they complement each other nicely.

 

:iagree: I'm using WWE (as well as MCT) with my younger dd - it's great for this. I also still use Editor in Chief for both my older and younger dds.

 

This doesn't help with capitalization, but for punctuation MCT Town starts getting into "Punctuation as a function of grammar," which is very helpful. I think that's focused on even more in Voyage level.

[homeschooltoone]

We use Daily Gram this year. Next year we doing to try Daily Paragraph Editing. My son loves Daily Gram.:001_smile:

[EKS]

IMHO, I wouldn't call it a weakness in MCT. When I consider who the audience for MCT was for initially, public school kids, it makes sense. What were they not getting? Grammar instruction. A love of writing and the written word. THat is the void MCT was trying to fill. I would bet they got plenty of capitalization/punctuation. I know they started on that in K when my son was in PS but nope, no grammar. I think those skills are best worked on separately from MCT through copywork and dictation and correcting errors in DC's own writing. I do WWE along w/ MCT Island and it works perfectly together. We did finish up GWG 4 from last year and that worked well as a refresher as someone mentioned...not lining them up but it just so happened the new topics in GWG came after we covered them in GI.

 

The grammar topics that MCT does cover, I've seen terrific retention. The practice workbooks are where the long term retention is accomplished. Reminds me of SWB's being pecked to death by ducks method....small doses over and over and over gets the job done.

 

Capt_Uhura

 

I agree with all of this of course. It's just funny that I didn't even notice that it wasn't teaching capitalization/punctuation. I, too, am seeing amazing retention and understanding with MCT. Happily, capitalization and punctuation are fairly easy to fix with supplementation.

[kalanamak]

You can use Evan Moor's Daily Paragraph Editing series. It is one paragraph per day 4 times weekly.

 

http://www.rainbowresource.com/prodlist.php?sid=1273083385-1985939&subject=7&category=1829

 

You can see a lot of samples at the Evan-Moor site. These look interesting!

[swimmermom3]

I dictate each of the 100 practice sentences to my dds. We have the teacher's book only - no student workbook. They write each sentence on a white board. We go over spelling, capitalization and punctuation before they analyze the sentence.

 

You, my dear, are a genius.:001_wub: This is the kind of extra mileage I love to get out anything we do. Swimmer Dude continues to do dictation for punctuation and I correct his writing. We'll see how the test scores are this year.

[Capt_Uhura]

We're at the end of Sentence Island and today it covered the four purposes of the sentence: to declare, to question, to exclaim, or to command ie declarative sentences, interrogative sentences, exclamatory sentences and imperative sentences. Each ends with period, question mark, exclamation point and a period, respectively.

[babysparkler]

I'm not sure how old your son is, but I copied a link that has free editing sheets for grades 2-4.

 

http://www.educationworld.com/a_lesson/archives/animalsAtoZ.shtml

 

Thanks! These are great!

[sassenach]

I dictate each of the 100 practice sentences to my dds. We have the teacher's book only - no student workbook. They write each sentence on a white board. We go over spelling, capitalization and punctuation before they analyze the sentence.

 

What a good idea!

[Capt_Uhura]

Swimmermom .... I. am. pondering. this......maybe I won't buy Practice Town and try your method!

[swimmermom3]

I forgot to add that in Essay Voyage the following pages are for punctuation: pp. 11-12 comma usage, pg. 13 mechanical errors, pp. 33-34 comma usage, pg. 35 mechanical errors, pp. 57-58 comma usage, pg. 59 mechanical errors, pp. 83-84 clause punctuation, pg. 85 mechanical errors... The book continues on this way through all of the lessons with 3 pages devoted to punctuation and usage. Pages 349-356 in the back of Essay Voyage list punctuation rules and common English Grammar and Usage Problems.

 

I am not familiar with the lower levels of MCT but perhaps you don't see as much emphasis on punctuation or capitalization because with younger children the first priority is to understand how individual words work together to make a sentence. Then you learn that the sentence needs a period at the end of it and a capital at the beginning of it.

 

Otherwise, well...what's the point in knowing how to do a flip turn if you can't swim? Kwim?:D

[Country Girl]

I dictate each of the 100 practice sentences to my dds. We have the teacher's book only - no student workbook. They write each sentence on a white board. We go over spelling, capitalization and punctuation before they analyze the sentence.

 

I was excited to see you do this. I've also noticed my ds not grasping capitalization and punctuation and was thinking of doing exactly this to try to help us. Only problem I see, is that my grammar knowledge isn't very good and I'm not always sure how or why to punctuate a sentence a particular way.

[Flaura]

My son, who got *all* of the questions on the language portion of the ITBS correct last year (and the test was a year ahead of his grade by age), just completely BOMBED the capitalization subtest this year. I am bracing for the punctuation subtest tomorrow...

 

We will be adding daily capitalization/punctuation practice to our routine next year. I'm thinking of using Daily Grams. Does anyone have any other suggestions?

 

We just got our ITBS scores back and we had the same thing happen!

I don't know what we are going to do yet so this is a very helpful thread. I will go back and read all the replies to get some ideas. Thanks for posting.

[johnandtinagilbert]

ALthough I love our LA program, I keep a year 6 Rod & Staff on hand to touch on anything we need a little extra practice on. It covers the basics, including capitalization, and gives me something to use for extra practice where we need it.

 

I use DG and love it. I love the little reminding :)

[Kuovonne]

Please forgive my ignorance. I never thought there was much to capitalizaition: first letter of a sentence and names (or words used as names, including names of things like countries, holidays, books, etc.). What else is there? At what grade level are additional capitalization rules expected?

Edited May 6, 2010 by Kuovonne

[KarenNC]

Please forgive my ignorance. I never thought there was much to capitalizaition: first letter of a sentence and names (or words used as names, including names of things like countries, holidays, books, etc.). What else is there? At what grade level are additional capitalization rules expected?

 

One wouldn't think there was much to them, would one. Unfortunately, in our case, it's these basic rules that seem to be totally eluding my daughter (at least as far as realizing that, yes, by golly, one has to use them *all the time!*), despite working on them via a variety of approaches for the last 4 years:glare:. She's in 4th grade.

[johnandtinagilbert]

One wouldn't think there was much to them, would one. Unfortunately, in our case, it's these basic rules that seem to be totally eluding my daughter (at least as far as realizing that, yes, by golly, one has to use them *all the time!*), despite working on them via a variety of approaches for the last 4 years:glare:. She's in 4th grade.

How about summer boot camp? Spend every day in the summer with a focused lesson on capitalization. Just work out the kink, kwim? You can stop if she catches on.

[scrappyhappymama]

I dictate each of the 100 practice sentences to my dds. We have the teacher's book only - no student workbook. They write each sentence on a white board. We go over spelling, capitalization and punctuation before they analyze the sentence.

 

I LOVE this! I am adding this to my notes on "how to implement MCT" next year. :D

[radiobrain]

I know that there is punctuation covered in the town level, but I don't remember it in the island level. I know that MCT thinks that punctuation is a slave to the grammar, so he makes sure you get the grammar so the punctuation can't be any other way... I think... I haven't had enough coffee, but that is my impression.

 

HOWEVER... those tests are laid out very strangely, and I swear boys just do not notice these things like capitals and little dots and dashes. If they were writing their own piece, or doing a MCT lesson, they would know what to do. My kids know ALL the rules, could recite them to me... but will still do horribly on the test.

 

My kids always bomb on those sections. If there are a lot of us who have the same issue, does it make sense that maybe it isn't our children, but the test?

 

just thinking in the morning...

[Capt_Uhura]

I agree, I HATE how the mechanics was presented on the ITBS. IT was very confusing. One sentence was spread out over a, b, c, and d. So DC had to pick out which portion of a sentence spread out over 4 lines was incorrect. When I first read one of these, I thought a) b/c it was an incomplete sentence. THen I realized b) was part of the sentence. I much prefer how the SAT/10 tests this by presenting the sentence in it's entirety, underlining what they want the student to focus, and ask which of those areas is incorrect.

 

I think the issue w/ capitalization/punctuation at the elementary level is that kids are so focused on content as well as writing the letters they don't have anything left over for mechanics. I noticed that when my son tried to switch to cursive...everything else went out the window b/c he wasn't fluid w/ how to form the letters. I think that is why copywork and dictation are a good way to reinforce these concepts b/c it divorces mechanics from content.

[naturalmom]

I love the idea of dictating the sentences! Thanks for sharing that!

 

We have just started MCT, and are going through some of it this summer (mainly for the older two, so they can start at an age appropriate level in the fall). This will be nice to add in.

[Kuovonne]

We have worked on grammar for the past 4 years. She *still* does not punctuate or capitalize correctly consistently (nor does she correctly identify basic parts of speech, etc):banghead:. I'm really hopeful that MCT will help it stick in this respect because the approach is different.

 

I wonder if these two issues (punctation/capitalization and identifying parts of speech) are related.

 

My DD had horrible punctuation. In fact, her run-on sentences were the main reasons why I started MCT when I did. DD knew to use a period at the end of a sentence; she just couldn't figure out a where sentence ended!

 

Perhaps your daughter doesn't capitalize proper nouns because she doesn't know that they are proper nouns?

 

One wouldn't think there was much to [capitalization rules], would one. Unfortunately, in our case, it's these basic rules that seem to be totally eluding my daughter (at least as far as realizing that, yes, by golly, one has to use them *all the time!*), despite working on them via a variety of approaches for the last 4 years:glare:. She's in 4th grade.

 

Thanks for answering my question. I guess that I've gotten lucky in this regard so far.

[swimmermom3]

I agree, I HATE how the mechanics was presented on the ITBS. IT was very confusing. One sentence was spread out over a, b, c, and d. So DC had to pick out which portion of a sentence spread out over 4 lines was incorrect. When I first read one of these, I thought a) b/c it was an incomplete sentence. THen I realized b) was part of the sentence. I much prefer how the SAT/10 tests this by presenting the sentence in it's entirety, underlining what they want the student to focus, and ask which of those areas is incorrect.

 

I think the issue w/ capitalization/punctuation at the elementary level is that kids are so focused on content as well as writing the letters they don't have anything left over for mechanics. I noticed that when my son tried to switch to cursive...everything else went out the window b/c he wasn't fluid w/ how to form the letters. I think that is why copywork and dictation are a good way to reinforce these concepts b/c it divorces mechanics from content.

 

Yes! One thing I have noticed on this board is a tendency to demand mastery of mechanics and diagramming skills at ages that may not be developmentally appropriate. (If you throw something, please make it really good tomatoes, I haven't had one in a long time.:D) Of course, Capt. Uhura, your comment made me think of swimming. My kids have had years of practice and instruction. They still make mistakes or acquire bad habits, but none of the mistakes are major or are ones that easily fixed. However, when I swim laps I can never be bored as I have to constantly think about my kick, my breathing, my rotation, my streamlining...aaaaaahh. I can hold together maybe 3 out of 5 skills. I am just not anywhere near the level of mastery my kids are at. I don't have the years of practice behind me.

 

One of the many things I appreciate about MCT is that he doesn't separate out grammar from vocabulary from mechanics from writing. I can't be the only one here who has a child that can ace an Easy Grammar assignment on commas or a spelling test, but then throw all of those supposedly acquired skills out the window when they write a paragraph.

 

Capt. Uhura, I'm not sure I understand the last highlighted part. One of the reasons I insist on using copywork/dictation is because it does put all of the skills together.

 

Kai, sorry. I'm really just thinking out loud here. I know that you wouldn't have posted on this if it wasn't a genuine concern. I am trying to sort out what could be a function of the test or a failing of the curriculum. So many variables to consider.

[Kuovonne]

Capt. Uhura, I'm not sure I understand the last highlighted part. One of the reasons I insist on using copywork/dictation is because it does put all of the skills together.

 

Copywork and dication does pull all the mechanics together; but it does so without requiring the child to come up with original content.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Kuovonne

[EKS]

You all will be relieved to know that today he did the punctuation subtest and it went much better.

[KarenNC]

I wonder if these two issues (punctation/capitalization and identifying parts of speech) are related.

 

My DD had horrible punctuation. In fact, her run-on sentences were the main reasons why I started MCT when I did. DD knew to use a period at the end of a sentence; she just couldn't figure out a where sentence ended!

 

Perhaps your daughter doesn't capitalize proper nouns because she doesn't know that they are proper nouns?

 

 

It's certainly possible. I am going to be very interested to see how she does on the post-test for MCT (the pre-test was terrible, imo).

[Capt_Uhura]

My thoughts are that copywork and dictation pulls all the pieces together but doesn't require content from the student. So the energy not used on content can be used on mechanics. If this is done often enough, it becomes automatic to capitalize the first word of every sentence, to check for punctuation at the end of a sentence, such that when DC moves to writing their own thoughts, the energy can be spent on their own thoughts rather than mechanics. WHen my son started writing in cursive, he didn't capitalize anything after never having issues w/ it when writing in manuscript and he also had trouble getting his thoughts on paper which he has no trouble w/ when writing in manuscript or typing ... writing in cursive was taking all his mental energy.

 

The way I think of it is....if a child is frantically trying to get thoughts on paper before they forget, they won't be paying attention to the mechanics. Or vice versa....if they are so focused on the mechanics, the content won't be very good...short, contrived sentences that are easy to punctuate and easy to spell.

[Jen in PA]

My thoughts are that copywork and dictation pulls all the pieces together but doesn't require content from the student. So the energy not used on content can be used on mechanics. If this is done often enough, it becomes automatic to capitalize the first word of every sentence, to check for punctuation at the end of a sentence, such that when DC moves to writing their own thoughts, the energy can be spent on their own thoughts rather than mechanics. WHen my son started writing in cursive, he didn't capitalize anything after never having issues w/ it when writing in manuscript and he also had trouble getting his thoughts on paper which he has no trouble w/ when writing in manuscript or typing ... writing in cursive was taking all his mental energy.

 

The way I think of it is....if a child is frantically trying to get thoughts on paper before they forget, they won't be paying attention to the mechanics. Or vice versa....if they are so focused on the mechanics, the content won't be very good...short, contrived sentences that are easy to punctuate and easy to spell.

 

:iagree: The first thing I do when I give DD copywork is have her locate all of the capital letters and all of the punctuation and tell me why each one is there (e.g. because Mary is a proper noun, because The is the first letter of the sentence). That way we are constantly reviewing the rules. We often discuss the same points as we go through sentences in Practice Island. But when DD writes something on her own, I don't have her make corrections to capitalization and punctuation until she has gotten the words down on paper. Sometimes she will be halfway through a sentence and suddenly realize that it needs a comma, but if she is juggling handwriting (not her strongest skill) and a fantastic idea already, she can't usually manage to apply all of the rules in the first pass through a writing assignment.

[swimmermom3]

My thoughts are that copywork and dictation pulls all the pieces together but doesn't require content from the student. So the energy not used on content can be used on mechanics. If this is done often enough, it becomes automatic to capitalize the first word of every sentence, to check for punctuation at the end of a sentence, such that when DC moves to writing their own thoughts, the energy can be spent on their own thoughts rather than mechanics. WHen my son started writing in cursive, he didn't capitalize anything after never having issues w/ it when writing in manuscript and he also had trouble getting his thoughts on paper which he has no trouble w/ when writing in manuscript or typing ... writing in cursive was taking all his mental energy.

 

The way I think of it is....if a child is frantically trying to get thoughts on paper before they forget, they won't be paying attention to the mechanics. Or vice versa....if they are so focused on the mechanics, the content won't be very good...short, contrived sentences that are easy to punctuate and easy to spell.

 

Thank you! That was a "duh!" moment on my part. Sorry about that.:tongue_smilie: