Contemplating a little civil disobedience here ...

[OhM]

And I'm wondering exactly how to go about it. :D

 

Here's the situation:

I live on approx. 1/2 acre within a rural village. The kids had been toying with the idea of a pygmy goat project for 4-H, and I'm getting more and more interested in keeping a Nigerian dwarf milker.

 

When I called to ask about any restrictions against keeping pet goats in the village, I got a bit of a run-around:

 

I was first told that we don't have a pet ordinance, but "you can't keep a goat in town!" I said, "Not 'goat' - PYGMY goat - the size of a dog." "Well...I just don't think you can.." She left a mssg. for the regular clerk.

 

I received a message back that was dripping with sarcasm: "I'm not sure if you were needing code enforcement or a zoning inspector. Please call us to clarify."

 

That conversation led to me being told it was a zoning issue. However, dh is head of the zoning board, and neither I nor he could find any animal or pet definitions in the zoning code.

 

Well, then we were told that council passed an ordinance prohibiting "goats" in town. (Again - "Not 'goats' - PYGMY goats - size of a dog?")

 

Since this was getting so squirrelly, I asked to obtain a copy of the ordinance. "Oh, I don't know if I can find it, I'll try to pull something out for you..." Hmph.

 

So now I have the ordinance in hand (I wouldn't have been surprised if it had passed since I started this back-and-forth with the clerk! It wasn't - 1972.) Here's what it says:

"No person...shall keep, harbor, or have under its control cattle, sheep, geese, ducks, turkeys, chickens or other fowl or animals within the corporate limits of the Village, except household pets, such as cats and dogs."

 

OK - no goats are mentioned. Pets are not defined. If "cats and dogs" defines pets, then all those hamsters, guinea pigs, fish, frogs, snakes, ferrets and potbelly pigs should have to go, too, right?

 

So I guess I could go before council and ask for this to be defined (but it would probably work against me.) Or I could take the interpretation that pygmy goats are accepted as pets in many areas, and would fall under the exception here, (since they're in that gray "or animals" area), and see what happens. I did learn that two cities in Ohio have an exception that defines pygmies as pets - though they have to be spayed or neutered & pygmy breed, which still wouldn't help me with the ND milker.

 

I have to admit - if the snippy clerk lady hadn't had the attitude of "well, I don't know exactly where it says it, but you CAN'T HAVE A GOAT!" I probably would just let it drop. As it is, I'm feeling a little feisty and want to test it!

 

My lawyer friend is in Israel for a couple weeks, and I'll talk to him when he gets back. In the meantime, anyone else been in a similar situation? What would you all do with this?

[Jean in Newcastle]

If you have the ordinance and it doesn't specify pygmy goats then you could go ahead under the assumption that they are a pet. The main thing you might run into is the fact that you intend to milk it - putting it more in the category of the domestic farm animals that they list as being prohibited.

[Tangerine]

This seems like a pot-bellied pig sort of situation. As in, nobody wants to live next to a hog farm. But who cares if somebody in town has a pot-bellied pig as a pet? Nobody wants to live next to a goat farm with giant pony-sized bucks that smell like the devil himself...but who cares about a teensy goat?

[misidawnrn]

I'd say...get a goat and a fence and nobody would be the wiser!

[Remudamom]

I'd get a goat as fast as I could, and walk it on a leash through town.

[bookfiend]

I'm with you - get the goat. For a reference point, however, our local communities just went through a similar "refinement" of the law regarding hens. One side argued that the hens were family pets; the town disagreed. The final factor - if you can buy it at the grocery store, it's not a pet. You could make a good goat argument, especially if others have pigs!

[justamouse]

It doesn't say anything about pygmy goats. Go get it!

[kokotg]

I am, ahem, a big fan of civil disobedience when it comes to ridiculous prohibitions like that, so I say go for it. Unless your kids would be devastated if you got the goat and wound up having to find a new home for it at some point down the road.

[Danestress]

It sounds like a case that would be worth hearing in a court of law. But trying cases can be expensive, depending on how hard you feel like fighting. You need to remember that. If the city sues you or seizes the animal and you decide that you are right and that it's a "matter of principal," principals are still expensive - or can be.

 

Part of it would depend on the tolerance level of your children. If you think they could handle the trauma of having a pet and then losing it, of having it seized or just having to go through a hearing, then you could go for it and see what happens. If your children are particularly sensitive and unlikely to really benefit from the lesson in fighting the powers that be, I wouldn't do it.

[Tangerine]

The final factor - if you can buy it at the grocery store, it's not a pet.

 

My grocery store has rabbits. :tongue_smilie:

[FaithManor]

Our town ordinance has a specific exemption in place for 4-H. The ordinance specifically states there cannot be a farm animal restriction placed on keeping an animal for educational purposes. It does state that the animal must have access to "adequate" land for its size. This is enforced by county animal control who has incurred so many budget cuts that the only time they come out for anything, is in extreme neglect and abuse cases.

 

So, see if you have that same kind of exemption. Demand a full copy of the zoning ordinances. Our township supervisor would prefer that there not be a single animal of any kind (he and the township treasurer's wife are animal haters and want everything to look like a Thomas Kincade backdrop) so he REFUSES to tell people this when they ask. But, the head of our zoning board is a farmer and he gladly provides anyone who asks with a copy of the exemption. Legally, they cannot fail to provide you with a full legal copy within a reasonable time frame. In most cases, this is 10 business days.

 

Faith

[Joy at Home]

I'd get a goat as fast as I could, and walk it on a leash through town.

 

:lol::lol: You kill me.

[JFSinIL]

Part of it would depend on the tolerance level of your children. If you think they could handle the trauma of having a pet and then losing it, of having it seized or just having to go through a hearing, then you could go for it and see what happens. If your children are particularly sensitive and unlikely to really benefit from the lesson in fighting the powers that be, I wouldn't do it.

 

That is my thought - what if the kids bond with Goatie and then he/she has to go?

[Garga]

I think you need to calm down. Sounds like they got your goat.

 

(har har har!!!) :D

[joannqn]

My grocery store has rabbits. :tongue_smilie:

 

Hmmm, the butcher I buy meat from stocks rabbit, turtle, frog, and python...all things kept as pets.

[Laurel]

Growing up, we had a similar situation with a pig. We lived in a small city, nice part of town, and we had a pig. (Raise to eat kind of pig.) It didn't smell, and the neighbors didn't mind, but the pig did like to take walks down the street. At some point, the pig was reported (we liked to say that somebody "squealed"), and my mom was told that if it didn't bark or meow, it was not allowed within city limits. So a month or two later, she had it butchered, which was the original plan anyway. (And the whole thing worked out really well for her, actually, because she owned a restaurant at the time, so it was great free publicity as she served the pig, for a "final meal.")

 

(She then began raising rabbits, which also neither bark nor meow, but that didn't get her into any trouble.)

 

I would do it, and wouldn't much worry about it. As long as no one has a reason to "turn you in," as long as you're not bothering anyone...

[hillfarm]

I would be careful about the message you are teaching your dc. Do you really want to teach them that it is okay to reinterpret the law just because you want something? Wouldn't you actually rather teach them about the process of trying to get a law changed or an exemption granted rather than how to disobey because they view a law as wrong or restrictive? I had a cat once in temporary housing where pets were not allowed. It was horrible for the 4 months I lived there. Every knock on the door and I was running to hide the cat. Do you really want to put your dc through this or the possibility of learning to love then lose a family pet?

 

BTW, we live on a farm and our neighbor has pygmy goats. They are absolutely still goats, regardless of their size. They climb like goats, they baaa like goats, they smell like goats, they create manure like goats, they eat trees and decorative plants like goats, they bite like goats, and most important of all, they escape like goats. (Paying homage to another recent thread, Yep, MR goats!:lol:)

 

Believe it or not, I am actually looking into becoming associated with a regional zoo and starting to raise exotic antelope as part of a captive conservation program (all their natural habitat is either gone or has become a war-torn area where everything edible is rapidly going extinct). You cannot imagine the vast amounts of paperwork associated with this type of project. And, yes, we have had an unscrupulous dealer offer to sell us some of these animals on the sly. But I refused for several reasons, not the least of which was to show 11yo dd that we do not break the law just because it happens to suit us at the time. Civil disobedience is all fine and good, but I prefer to teach her how to pick her battles. The right to homeschool, the right to parent our own children, the right to worship as we choose, these are rights that would spur me to civil disobedience, not my right to keep a certain type of gazelle.

[OhM]

I think you need to calm down. Sounds like they got your goat.

 

(har har har!!!) :D

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

 

Wouldn't you actually rather teach them about the process of trying to get a law changed or an exemption granted rather than how to disobey because they view a law as wrong or restrictive?

 

This is more my thought this morning.

 

The law as written is so vague as to almost be useless. I've seen much better definitions of excluded animals (i.e. no hooved animals or fowl) in other pet ordinances, and more complete definitions of what is a pet. Someone else mentioned rabbits - where do they fit in to the law as written? It almost looks like it's designed for selective enforcement! (But I doubt that the people on council around here are that devious or clever.)

 

I think approaching council and asking them to consider defining pets better and granting an exemption for pygmy &/or dwarf goats would be a more civil way to go. (Though I'm fairly certain my milk goat would be excluded.)

 

OTOH, my lawyer friend is about as ornery as I am. If he's willing to help me out gratis or for cheap, I'd prefer following the letter of the law and call them on it! The bad thing is it would cost the village money they don't really have right now. And I don't think the kids would be heartbroken over losing their animal, but I'm pretty sure I would be!

 

I appreciate all the comments! Nice to know I'm hanging around with so many rabble-rousers!

[Tutor]

I'd get the goat, consult with a lawyer friend, and fight for an education/ 4H exception to the rule. Just yesterday the Supreme Court overruled an anti-animal cruelty photo/ video law in part because it was too vaguely worded. Vaguely worded legislation, imo, should not be tolerated.

[Orthodox6]

I would be careful about the message you are teaching your dc. Do you really want to teach them that it is okay to reinterpret the law just because you want something? Wouldn't you actually rather teach them about the process of trying to get a law changed or an exemption granted rather than how to disobey because they view a law as wrong or restrictive? I had a cat once in temporary housing where pets were not allowed. It was horrible for the 4 months I lived there. Every knock on the door and I was running to hide the cat. Do you really want to put your dc through this or the possibility of learning to love then lose a family pet?

 

BTW, we live on a farm and our neighbor has pygmy goats. They are absolutely still goats, regardless of their size. They climb like goats, they baaa like goats, they smell like goats, they create manure like goats, they eat trees and decorative plants like goats, they bite like goats, and most important of all, they escape like goats. (Paying homage to another recent thread, Yep, MR goats!:lol:)

 

Believe it or not, I am actually looking into becoming associated with a regional zoo and starting to raise exotic antelope as part of a captive conservation program (all their natural habitat is either gone or has become a war-torn area where everything edible is rapidly going extinct). You cannot imagine the vast amounts of paperwork associated with this type of project. And, yes, we have had an unscrupulous dealer offer to sell us some of these animals on the sly. But I refused for several reasons, not the least of which was to show 11yo dd that we do not break the law just because it happens to suit us at the time. Civil disobedience is all fine and good, but I prefer to teach her how to pick her battles. The right to homeschool, the right to parent our own children, the right to worship as we choose, these are rights that would spur me to civil disobedience, not my right to keep a certain type of gazelle.

 

:iagree: A pygmy goat is a goat. A toy poodle is a poodle. And so forth.

I like the idea of teaching children how our country works [or is supposed to work]. Drafting a well-researched paper on the raising and maintenance of miniature goats, along with a family plan for number of animals desired, and sketches or blueprints for shed(s), feeding, and watering equipment -- pulling together all this information and presenting a formal proposal to the village board that the zoning be changed (or amended) to allow owning such animals, up to a genuinely reasonable number. (One city near me allows pygmy goats in urban backyards, so long as the required amount of square footage, per animal, is there for covered shelter and for grazing.) Not only does this teach children the accepted manner of challenging a (probably silly) restriction, but it demonstrates to the village (the neighbors with whom one must live) that a family are not just "rabble rousers".

 

Hope you can succeed with the project !

[elegantlion]

I think you need to calm down. Sounds like they got your goat.

 

(har har har!!!) :D

 

Can't believe it took until page two for someone to say that. :lol::lol::lol:

[Tap]

Any chance you have a connection to get your zoning changed? (!) :D

[lisamarie]

What is your current zoning? In my area, if you are zoned as Ag, you can have goats. If you are zoned as residential, you can't. Living in a rural village, it would surprise me that you couldn't have animals unless you live in a high density area. I live in a subdivision surrounded by fields and woods, so most people in my village can have animals.

 

ETA: I just went over my village ordinances with a fine tooth comb and there is nothing in there saying I can't have chickens or goats on my property. There are lot size minimums I would have to meet in order to run anything bigger than a goat (horses, cows, etc), but nothing to restrict goats. I am a trustee for my village so I have the full ordinance book right here. DH and I keep joking around about getting chickens and I am thinking we might just do that one of these days.....

Edited April 21, 2010 by lisamarie

[MamaAkins]

Sometimes it's best not to ask too many questions and draw attention to one's self! It could also be said that it's best to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission!

[HRAAB]

I'd get a goat as fast as I could, and walk it on a leash through town.

 

My dd used to walk her goats on leashes around our neighborhood.

 

I like to think it should boil down to common sense. People don't want to live next to a hog farm or feed lot, hence the ordinances. That's where I like to think common sense comes into play. A pygmy goat is not a hog. We were recently at a garden and feed store and stopped to listen in on a chicken class they were giving. Raising chickens is prohibited by city ordinances, however, most people were saying as long as you don't have a rooster and respect your neighbors, they weren't having any issues having a few chickens for eggs. With the economy the way it is more and more people are raising a few chickens or a little goat or something, and it's not the same as a livestock operation.

 

We were annexed into the city a few years ago, but fortunately, we have grandfather rights.

[catalinakel]

I would be careful about the message you are teaching your dc. Do you really want to teach them that it is okay to reinterpret the law just because you want something? Wouldn't you actually rather teach them about the process of trying to get a law changed or an exemption granted rather than how to disobey because they view a law as wrong or restrictive? I had a cat once in temporary housing where pets were not allowed. It was horrible for the 4 months I lived there. Every knock on the door and I was running to hide the cat. Do you really want to put your dc through this or the possibility of learning to love then lose a family pet?

 

BTW, we live on a farm and our neighbor has pygmy goats. They are absolutely still goats, regardless of their size. They climb like goats, they baaa like goats, they smell like goats, they create manure like goats, they eat trees and decorative plants like goats, they bite like goats, and most important of all, they escape like goats. (Paying homage to another recent thread, Yep, MR goats!:lol:)

 

Believe it or not, I am actually looking into becoming associated with a regional zoo and starting to raise exotic antelope as part of a captive conservation program (all their natural habitat is either gone or has become a war-torn area where everything edible is rapidly going extinct). You cannot imagine the vast amounts of paperwork associated with this type of project. And, yes, we have had an unscrupulous dealer offer to sell us some of these animals on the sly. But I refused for several reasons, not the least of which was to show 11yo dd that we do not break the law just because it happens to suit us at the time. Civil disobedience is all fine and good, but I prefer to teach her how to pick her battles. The right to homeschool, the right to parent our own children, the right to worship as we choose, these are rights that would spur me to civil disobedience, not my right to keep a certain type of gazelle.

 

:iagree: Although I am going to be using a drying rack in my yard even though we are prohibited from having clotheslines in the yard. But animals are quite a different thing, imho.

[Anne in CA]

I just had to respond on my way out the door. This reminds me of when we first moved to Portland and lived in a large apartment complex. One of our neighbors had a real pig for a pet. I mean that pig must have weighed 300lb and she walked it every day and cleaned up after it with a pooper scooper, unlike many dog owners in the complex.

 

Dh was very mad about the pig, and I told him, "The pig isn't hurting you, it doesn't smell, and it makes less mess outside than our kid." He was still mad, lol, but he had to acknowledge those things.