(LONG) Need parenting advice-2 children with troubling behavior

[lakotajm]

I have had a terrible day-the kind that leaves you shaky and wishing you could find a corner to crawl in and cry. I have had some issues with my kids' behavior and today was sort of the culmination of these problems all exploding simultaneously.

 

DD5 seems to have issues with wanting everything to go exactly as she has them in her mind, and when they don't, she explodes and is inconsolable. She will demand for you to do things over from the start, especially. She will scream and cry, threaten, etc. Like this morning, she had wanted to wear her cat shirt. I had set it on the rocker, but my Mom didn't know. She was helping the 2 littles to dress for homeschool group. I was gone for a wlak with oldest. I retruned to find dd5 screaming and throwing things and could barely make out "cat shirt". I got it for her, but then she demands to have her pajamas put back on so she can start over. We did not have time for that, even it it had been a reasonable request. I try to reason with her and state the time limit and that she will go as is or stay with my mom if need be, while we go to co-op. Nothing helps. Sometimes it just takes time, distractions, hugs, more time, etc. to get her to calm down. She has been this way since she was a toddler. At first, we humored her if it wasn't going to put us out too much, thinking it was just independece speaking and she would grow out of it. We phased out the enabling by the time she was 3, and started trying to instruct her out of it, asssuming from then on that repeats were just stubborness. It seems to have gotten worse, not better, and borders on OCD-weirdness. She seems physically pained by changes in her plan. Help!

 

dd6 is classic ADHD. She lacks impulse control. I have tried everything in the book. Today, she pinched one boy at co-op for the high crime of sitting "at the girl table" then not 20 minutes later, a frantic mom and sobbing boy come up and show me a terrible bite mark she inflicted because the boy had merely entered the room where she and her girlfriends were playing. Just a few minutes before, dd5 had to have a time out for refusing to take no for an answer about being picked up/held and dd13 was acting almost as silly, asking me to fill a plate and bring it to her as if she were dd5! So here I am, plate in hand, dd5 clinging to my leg, whining, dd6 hiding under a pool table, boy crying and other mom fretting.

ARGH! I try to get them and all their things and go. It wasn't a smooth exit.

 

DD6 had started Christian counseling about 2 months ago because of impulse contol issues, but it doesn't seem to be helping at all. I have a gut feeling about the couselor that she isn't all that well trained and doesn't jive well with dd. What would you do, what have you done, if you were in my shoes? Already have told dd6 she can not go to co-op next Friday.

 

Lakota

[Ottakee]

It might be time for an evaluation for 5dd and 6dd.

 

For 5dd---first things that came to mind were OCD and Aspergers. Counseling and/or medication might make a huge difference. Food allergies might also play a part in both kids issues and might be worth looking into.

 

For 6dd, you might need an evaluation and possibly medication for the ADHD. Obviously things aren't working well right now.

 

Can you find a top notch Pediatric Psychiatrist that will look at the big picture? I like a doctor that also does some blood work for basic things like thyroid, blood sugars, anemia, thyroid, etc. as those can all play a roll in the behaviors you are seeing.

[tenoraddict]

First, :grouphug:.

 

When you say "classic ADHD," do you mean diagnosed and being treated, or just showing the symptoms we all recognize by now? If they're diagnosed and being treated, I'd call the Dr. to talk about a change in treatment plan, because it sounds like it's not working. You're already setting some limits, recognizing inappropriate behavior, and getting help...have you tried meds? My DS7 was just (not surprisingly to anyone) diagnosed with ADHD, and as much as I am opposed to putting a kid on meds for any length of time, I know it will be the best thing for him. We've done behavior modification and supplements, all of which helped, but not enough.

 

If you haven't looked into supplements, go to Dr. Daniel Amen's site for some really useful information. His book, Healing ADD , was invaluable to us on many levels. Also, the book Dreamers, Discoverers, and Dynamos was helpful in understanding behavior like the cat shirt incident, and how to respond to it in a way that will be successful.

 

Take a deep breath. Get a good night's sleep. Relax this weekend. Call on Monday for appointments to get the girls evaluated.

[extendedforecast]

I wish I had advice, but all I can do is sympathize. Your 5yo DD sounds a lot like my 7yo DD. She has complete meltdowns that really drain me emotionally. DH and I disagree on how to handle them, and that alone is a big problem. He tends to give in to her demands, plus give her extra attention or a special privilege, even when she's broken one of our rules. My way of dealing with her meltdowns is to remain firm about the rules, while trying to let her know that I understand that she feels frustrated about the situation. Sometimes I compromise with her if we are in a rush, and I need her to get over it. Neither of our methods seems to work, and we are concerned about her. I will be following this thread to see what others have to say.

 

From what I've read so far, I am interested in hearing more about the possibility of Aspergers. I had recently mentioned to DH that she had a lot of the characteristics of a child with Aspergers. He dismissed me, as usual, because he was brought up in a family that doesn't seek medical help unless it's dire. (He is not opposed to medical care or mental health care, it's just his first instinct to react that way.)

 

Sorry for the length of my reply. Know you are not alone.

 

Cindy

[Lara in Colo]

I can truly sympathize. My DD (now 9) would throw the worst fits from 1.5-4. I remember a 45 min scream fest (both of us) because her underwear didn't have a tag in the back, but on the side. I ended up putting marker xx's on the back and calling it "momma's special tag".

 

We had fits about getting in or out of the tub, once she grabbed her sister (who was 2 at the time) and almost pulled her hair out trying to get me to put her back in the tub!!

 

I had neighbors offer to watch the child for me while we both calmed down (she screamed because she didn't want to go to the store, screamed at the store, screamed in the car on the way home, and grabbed the car seat as I was getting her out of the car because she wanted to go back to the store, the neighbor caught us as I was trying to get her little hands pryed off of the railing on the front porch to go inside)

 

My mother blamed me ... said I was a new mom and didn't know how to control the child. Really????

 

 

What worked?? regular (I mean regular sleep, strict bedtime, strict naps)

 

Regular food, low in sugar (we discovered she is hypoglycemic, which us opposite of diabeties where her body uses too much insuline and the brain is STARVING)

 

Time and maturity

 

She is still my problem child, she is the reason I am HSing, she wasn't staying focused at school (needed more food, she eats every 2 hours).

She still throws fits and will not stop screaming until you talk it through. Its as if her brain gets stuck and you need to hit the reset button. She is VERY intellegent, VERY artistic and VERY FLIGHTY. (Just like the absentminded professor. I am anti medication (for me and mine), I would as a last recourse after all else fails because some things are very hard to undo, some steps cannot be reversed, some labels stick for life. If you want talk more, let me know.

 

Lara

[EKS]

What is your response when your daughters behave in the ways you have described?

[newlifemom]

I don't have an official dx for my ds, but some of that behavior of your 5 yr old reminds me of him. He for sure had sensory integration disorder. I cannot tell you how much a good ot and brushing was for him. She also started me on the nutritional path I am on with him. We aren't great, but no HFCS, no additives, no msg I try to get him to eat a lot of real food. We also enforce bedtime and routine. I have to tell you the ages between 4 & 5 were a horror for me. He was asked to leave every setting. Sunday School, co-op, play-dates you get the idea. I totally know where you are coming from and believe whole heartedly that food additives etc play a major role.

 

I also agree with others that a good ped psychiatrist or a dev. ped. would be a great place to start.

 

Have you heard of the Feingold diet. I haven't researched it but I believe it has to do with petroleum products and has made huge impact in children like this.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[SonshineLearner]

Hi There,

 

Here's the beginning of my thoughts. What is your personality? Are you easy going? My son is very into routines. He hates unexpected. But, life happens, right? So, I've done things that seem to help like.... I say, "no" sometimes just because he needs to learn to hear "no" and respond appropriately. I also try to help him learn that things aren't always as planned. Why? Because this is my time to train him, and I've seen first hand adults that have to have things a set way and are not able to process the... it's life.... and things aren't always as planned... (You need to be able to make lemonade out of lemons)

 

Now, if you have diagnoses that have certain labels... they help... and make you have part of the answer. And.. hopefully will get you over the hump a bit.

 

I would say, during a calm moment, try the sit down thing. Talk about one issue first. Perhaps the "things don't always go our way". Perhaps you can talk about the situation and think through different choices.

 

I would try 2 weeks of being firm and "love and logic-ee" and seeing if it helps. Very calmly (ugh, right?) say "kids who are calm and dressed can hop in the car and go" "kids who aren't will stay at home". (This is if you have the option.) Otherwise, just two choices that you can live with.

 

After a couple of weeks of being calm and giving choices.. you could more easily judge what part is something you can deal with... and what you need help with.

 

I'm not suggesting anything like this with judgement... just suggesting with love :) Only you know if it might work for your situation.

 

:)

[Laurie4b]

I have had a terrible day-the kind that leaves you shaky and wishing you could find a corner to crawl in and cry. I have had some issues with my kids' behavior and today was sort of the culmination of these problems all exploding simultaneously.

 

DD5 seems to have issues with wanting everything to go exactly as she has them in her mind, and when they don't, she explodes and is inconsolable. She will demand for you to do things over from the start, especially. She will scream and cry, threaten, etc. Like this morning, she had wanted to wear her cat shirt. I had set it on the rocker, but my Mom didn't know. She was helping the 2 littles to dress for homeschool group. I was gone for a wlak with oldest. I retruned to find dd5 screaming and throwing things and could barely make out "cat shirt". I got it for her, but then she demands to have her pajamas put back on so she can start over. We did not have time for that, even it it had been a reasonable request. I try to reason with her and state the time limit and that she will go as is or stay with my mom if need be, while we go to co-op. Nothing helps. Sometimes it just takes time, distractions, hugs, more time, etc. to get her to calm down. She has been this way since she was a toddler. At first, we humored her if it wasn't going to put us out too much, thinking it was just independece speaking and she would grow out of it. We phased out the enabling by the time she was 3, and started trying to instruct her out of it, asssuming from then on that repeats were just stubborness. It seems to have gotten worse, not better, and borders on OCD-weirdness. She seems physically pained by changes in her plan. Help!

 

dd6 is classic ADHD. She lacks impulse control. I have tried everything in the book. Today, she pinched one boy at co-op for the high crime of sitting "at the girl table" then not 20 minutes later, a frantic mom and sobbing boy come up and show me a terrible bite mark she inflicted because the boy had merely entered the room where she and her girlfriends were playing. Just a few minutes before, dd5 had to have a time out for refusing to take no for an answer about being picked up/held and dd13 was acting almost as silly, asking me to fill a plate and bring it to her as if she were dd5! So here I am, plate in hand, dd5 clinging to my leg, whining, dd6 hiding under a pool table, boy crying and other mom fretting.

ARGH! I try to get them and all their things and go. It wasn't a smooth exit.

 

DD6 had started Christian counseling about 2 months ago because of impulse contol issues, but it doesn't seem to be helping at all. I have a gut feeling about the couselor that she isn't all that well trained and doesn't jive well with dd. What would you do, what have you done, if you were in my shoes? Already have told dd6 she can not go to co-op next Friday.

 

Lakota

 

I'm a conservative Christian and used to be work as a therapist in mental health. I don't think you need Christian counseling. I think you need a good evaluation for dd5 and dd6 so that you know what you're dealing with. That's the first step; once you know what you are dealing with, you will be better equipped to deal with the behaviors. And if your gut is that your current counselor isn't experienced, you really need to move on. Secular therapy can help a great deal, but right now, without an evaluation, you don't actually know what exactly you do need. I would recommend a developmental pediatrician or a neuropsychologist for the evaluations.

 

You could also go over to the special needs board and describe each child separately with more detail and see what people say. That could point you in the right direction while you're lining up an evaluation. I'd look at the book The Out of Sync Child and see if any of that describes either child; if so, make an appointment for an evaluation with an occupational therapist. Sensory input can do wonders.

 

A bite from a 6 year old is unusual and is severe aggression. (Aggression is not part of ADHD. It can be comorbid with ADHD, but is not part of the diagnosis.) If it broke the skin, the other mother needs to take her son to the doctor for antibiotics. I would call her to see how here son is as a way of letting her know that you are concerned with her child's welfare and that you see the seriousness of the aggression and are willing to pay for the doctor if the skin was broken. I would suggest that you shadow her for a while when she's around other kids so that you can intervene before she bites again--which might mean that you might need to hire a teen as a mother's helper to help with dd5 when you're out sometimes. Shadowing dd6 shows the other mothers that you are taking the protection of their kids very seriously. If you don't do that, you will find that you aren't being invited places anymore and all of you will be lonely.

Edited March 20, 2010 by Laurie4b

[lakotajm]

I did forget to menion another behavior of dd5 that troubles us. She is reluctant to socialize. She is shy, but it is more than that. She just has no interest in interacting with other kids (except family and friends she's already known for years). At co-op, she will refuse to participate and demand to go into the preschool playroom (for the entire 3 hrs.!) I try to insist she do some of the stuff, if only for a minute or two. I ave to literally force her. She sometimes likes it after she tries it-but it's not the kids she likes, but the activity.

 

Most days, her favorite activity is to play act with toys, she just chats away with them all day. My MIL remarked, during the time we lived with her, how she talks almost constantly, . DD5 is very intelligent-probably more than her two sisters, with a strange, wry sense of humor and has spoken in clear, adult language since she was about 18 months. But she is not antisocial or out-of-touch with reality. Just seems to find socializing unecessary or boring.

 

Normally, dd6 is my worst case scenario-stealing, not taking no for an answer, disobeying almost constantly. That one is hard enough. But dd5 is an unusual one. Understands rules, respects order, just different.

 

Thanks for the replies. I will check into the ideas. We already eat a near vegetarian, anti-processed, few sweets type diet. It could be stricter, though. As far as responding, I use a modified 123 Magic (just 1,2) with time-outs. But I also do a lot of talking, role-playing, Bible stories, etc. I have moved away from spanking. I am a little like dd5-persistent and not as flexible as I'd like. But I have conciously worked on being less controlling lately.

 

One other possible issue that my mom and grandma believe plays a large part in things getting worse is that their Dad is gone alot. He is an OTR truck driver. he used to work part-time and got laid off. His new job is full-time so he is only home 1-2 days/week. I think they need him desperately. He has a very slow and stubborn manner and I cannot get a fire lit under him to see how important getting a different job is to all of us. If I make suggestions, he always has a reason why waiting or going in a different direction would be better. Ugh!

 

Lakota

[....]

It might be time for an evaluation for 5dd and 6dd.

 

Can you find a top notch Pediatric Psychiatrist that will look at the big picture? I like a doctor that also does some blood work for basic things like thyroid, blood sugars, anemia, thyroid, etc. as those can all play a roll in the behaviors you are seeing.

 

:iagree: YES! You need to leave the Christian Counselor thingie and talk to a Pediatrician or Pediatric Psychiatrist. Can you make an appointment with your Pediatrician and get a recommendation?

 

Honestly, if they were my kids...I would pull them out of co-op.

 

One of my 4 kids is a strange and difficult child...I understand your frustration. I won't leave her at a co-op or girl scouts or anything either. We were in Sears yesterday and out of nowhere, she slapped her brother across the face in front of a gasping crowd. Yeah, lovely.

 

I agree with your mother that their dad being gone is probably making these behaviors worse, but in his mind, he is just trying to provide for his family. :crying:

 

I would pull them from co-op and make an urgent appointment with your pediatrician.

[MelanieM]

If you haven't read it yet, I would recommend getting your hands on a copy of The Out-of-Sync Child. I feel like that would be useful, and reasuring, for you.

 

Sending you lots of calm, soothing vibes. I have a child that exhibits some of the behaviours you describe, and it can certainly be challenging and draining to parent him at times. :grouphug:

[ChristusG]

I cannot speak for your 6 year old, but your 5 year old sounds like my 5 year old DD.

 

In January we began taking her to see a psychologist. Her "OCD-like" symptoms had been going on since about the time she turned four. The psychologist diagnosed her with "general anxiety" and selective mutism. She diagnosed her with general anxiety becuase she said that she does not diagnose children her age with OCD. However, she said that she most definitely has OCD symptoms and she could be diagnosed with that later on.

 

I'd have your kiddos evaluated, if only for your sake so that you can meet with the therapist and figure out how to handle them better. That's what I wanted for our situation, just how to handle some of the OCD tendencies.

[TravelingChris]

I agree with all those who said you need medical intervention, not talk therapy. One of mine was extremely impulsive and lacking control when she wasn't properly medicated. She is much older now, still medicated and one of the best students in her co-op. Oh, and my dh is military so he is gone a lot too with all the TDYs. It does make a difference but what you have to do is provide more stability at home. If that means more convenience foods and take-out, so be it. It isn't the foods that are making them that way and changing foods won't make them better. Do what is easier for you and more stable for them.

[melmichigan]

:grouphug: I would also suggest an evaluation for both kids.

 

They both sound like two of my kids, each have a diagnosis. For us it has helped us learn how to deal with them better. A professional could tell you if it is something to do with your parenting style, and stress as you mentioned, or something more. My children are not on medication and there are challenging days, but a diagnosis has helped me deal with things and view things differently.

[Susan in TN]

Two more things I would suggest looking into -

 

Feingold Diet, which totally helped my oldest when he was 5yo and had consistent meltdowns, lots of sensitivities, and agressive behavior in preschool class.

 

Little Giant Steps - a neurodevelopment center which works on retraining the nervous system in children with a wide range of struggles - from Downs Syndrome, dyslexia, ADHD, Aspergers, etc. They are part of I.C.A.N. (International Christian Association of Neurodevelopmentalists) and have branches/associates all over the country. Very family/homeschool friendly.

[Caribbean Queen]

Perhaps you could put more control and responsibilty in your 5 year old's hands. You could hang up a few nice outfits in her closet and organize her socks and underwear in drawers. She could learn to pick out her own clothes and dress herself. You wouldn't pick out her clothes. Grandma wouldn't have the job of finding her clothes. She wouldn't need to ask you to put her pajamas back on. She would do it all herself. You and Grandma never have to even go in her room while she is getting dressed. Although you would try to keep up on her laundry, it wouldn't be your job to provide the very shirt she wants every morning. I would not look for a certain shirt for her. Her job would be to pick a shirt that is hanging in her closet.

 

If you tell her that if she isn't dressed at X o'clock then she will have to stay home, follow through with it. Be nonchalant about it. Have an attitude like, "If you want to waste your time screaming and crying that is your business. We are going out to have fun now. See you later."

 

I don't engage much in my children's temper tantrums. Engaging in them makes me irritated and gives the tantrum more importance and power. I would punish my children for throwing things, but my children are not especially impulsive and don't have special needs. I might make them loose screen time for throwing things.

 

I wouldn't let the 6 year old go back to Co-op this school year. I wouldn't do it as a punishment, but just as a safety thing. :(

[Wyndie]

I highly recommend the book "The Crazy Makers" I have spent years reading and learning about food and how it affects the body and this book brings it down to a nutshell. I think food is a viable option to explore, I know it makes a difference between screaming wild children being able to sit at the table and function in real life b/c that's the way it is here. Food very much affects the brain, which affects behavior. Give a diet change a few months to see if it's effective and if it doesn't do anything, then switch back but I cannot impress upon you strongly enough how much food changes behavior.

 

:grouphug: I have lived your life (DH is military and gone alot too) and I understand your distress. Labels and psychologists won't help if the underlying problem is a brain starved for real nutrition. (NOT saying this is the problem with your children, it's what was wrong with mine) It's worth exploring alternative options.

[Ritsumei]

First, :grouphug:! I also agree with the suggestion to get your DC looked at by some medical professionals. What you are dealing with is certainly very difficult! Hang in there, get some help.

 

I would also recommend 2 books on parenting & handling difficult behavior:

 

1. Transforming the Difficult Child: The Nurtured Heart Approach. I've seen this one work miracles with some very difficult kids I used to work with! Since then I've used many of the ideas in dealing with "regular" kids and it works wonders with them too. The book has a website with an excerpt available for free.

 

2. Christlike Parenting. This one, I found more recently, and I just love it! I have some experience with working with kids to correct difficult behaviors, and I love the way that this book takes good behavior management & modification techniques and mixes them with solid gospel understanding to come up with a really beautiful philosophy and some concrete ideas for what to do.

[CalicoKat]

:grouphug: You're a great mom. :grouphug:

[cillakat]

and borders on OCD-weirdness. She seems physically pained by changes in her plan. Help!

 

dd6 is classic ADHD. Just a few minutes before, dd5 had to have a time out for refusing to take no for an answer about being picked up/held and dd13 was acting almost as silly months ago because of impulse contol issues, but it doesn't seem to be helping at all. I have a gut feeling about the couselor that she isn't all that well trained and doesn't jive well with dd.

 

1) TODAY, buy the book _Transforming the Difficult Child_

 

2) See what you can do about evaluations.....complete neurpsych or psychoeducational batteries would be better than just 'talking to the ped' but it is expensive. The best bet is going to a major university psychology department for testing through them - it's often in the range of $700 per child rather than $1500-$2400 privately.

 

3) At the very least see the pediatrician - or better yet, a developmental pediatrician. It will not get better on it's own.

 

4) A six yo girl that bites might have something more than ADHD going on.......ime, that age, biting isn't typical for girls - even with ADHD. But it sounds like ADHD is part of it.

 

5) Please consider allowing them in co-op classes only when you are there. The 5 and 6 yo need you there to interface with the rest of the group - they can't handle it alone and it's not fair to the other kids.

 

6) _Transforming the difficult child_ is simple and something you can start today....it's not some huge complicated process that takes a ton of your time. Get the DVDs as well if you can manage it.

 

7) Medication is a G-d send. "talk about your feelings" counseling, esp with an ADHD child is a waste of time and may actually be counterproductive. Targeted skills based/cognitive behavior based therapy may be VERY helpful but it takes the right counselor.

 

I've been down your path....there *is* another side - a better side that you will eventually reach. Getting there will take education, action, lots of various appointments and most likely, medication. Start moving forward with an open mind *right now*.

 

Sending hugs your way.....

 

Best,

Katherine

[Laurie4b]

I did forget to menion another behavior of dd5 that troubles us. She is reluctant to socialize. She is shy, but it is more than that. She just has no interest in interacting with other kids (except family and friends she's already known for years). At co-op, she will refuse to participate and demand to go into the preschool playroom (for the entire 3 hrs.!) I try to insist she do some of the stuff, if only for a minute or two. I ave to literally force her. She sometimes likes it after she tries it-but it's not the kids she likes, but the activity.

 

Most days, her favorite activity is to play act with toys, she just chats away with them all day. My MIL remarked, during the time we lived with her, how she talks almost constantly, . DD5 is very intelligent-probably more than her two sisters, with a strange, wry sense of humor and has spoken in clear, adult language since she was about 18 months. But she is not antisocial or out-of-touch with reality. Just seems to find socializing unecessary or boring.

 

Normally, dd6 is my worst case scenario-stealing, not taking no for an answer, disobeying almost constantly. That one is hard enough. But dd5 is an unusual one. Understands rules, respects order, just different.

 

Thanks for the replies. I will check into the ideas. We already eat a near vegetarian, anti-processed, few sweets type diet. It could be stricter, though. As far as responding, I use a modified 123 Magic (just 1,2) with time-outs. But I also do a lot of talking, role-playing, Bible stories, etc. I have moved away from spanking. I am a little like dd5-persistent and not as flexible as I'd like. But I have conciously worked on being less controlling lately.

 

One other possible issue that my mom and grandma believe plays a large part in things getting worse is that their Dad is gone alot. He is an OTR truck driver. he used to work part-time and got laid off. His new job is full-time so he is only home 1-2 days/week. I think they need him desperately. He has a very slow and stubborn manner and I cannot get a fire lit under him to see how important getting a different job is to all of us. If I make suggestions, he always has a reason why waiting or going in a different direction would be better. Ugh!

 

Lakota

 

As you've found, good parenting that would work for most kids is not enough and will not be enough for this dd. Based on what you've said, it really does sound like a neurological difference:

Spoke in adult language from a young age

Cannot tolerate a change in routine or expectations: rigid

Becomes highly agitated (melts down) when routine is changed

Does not socialize like other children

 

Problems with socializing are the biggest red flag whenever an evaluation is done. Her sister (dd6) also has problems socializing.

 

Please do go get an evaluation for both dd's from a developmental pediatrician or neuropsychologist. You will probably want IQ tests done because those will help with diagnosis, which is why my preference would be the neuropsych. (Specific patterns on IQ tests are very helpful in differential diagnosis. It's not about measuring IQ.) The sooner you get each girl the specific kind of help she needs, the better the long term outcome. Given the additional info about your dd5, I'll bet that you will find her described in the book The Out of Sync Child and that an evaluation by a good occupational therapist for sensory processing issues and treatment will be a good step. Ask about the OT's experience with evaluating and treating sensory processing issues before you sign on for the program. You can pm me if you'd like.

[cillakat]

(He is not opposed to medical care or mental health care, it's just his first instinct to react that way.)

 

My dh as well. He resisted getting help for my then 3yo. She still needed help at 5, 6, and now at 10. We finally started getting her some help at 5, but what we really needed was something more comprehensive and diagnostic. Without a diagnosis, it's impossible to know what is needed to fix things.

 

I'm a conservative Christian and used to be work as a therapist in mental health. I don't think you need Christian counseling.

 

I so agree with Laurie.

 

Secular therapy can help a great deal, but right now, without an evaluation, you don't actually know what exactly you do need.

 

Well said.

 

 

The Out of Sync Child and see if any of that describes either child; if so, make an appointment for an evaluation with an occupational therapist. Sensory input can do wonders.

 

Here we disgree but only slightly. While sensory issues are certainly an issue here, too often, I see the sensory processing disorder (SPD) diagnosis from an OT take the place of a good thorough educationalpsych, neuropsych or developmental evaluation through those channels. It's not a replacement for the more thorough kinds of investigations and diagnoses.

 

I'd be willing to say that 100% of children with sensory issues have other issues that need to be addressed - and having those issues addressed asap is the most critical, top-tier, pressing need. Most kids have sensory issues. Some have more severe issues definitely. Some will outgrow their stuff, some won't.

 

I'm an adult with sensory issues - I know they exist - but the question becomes: what really works to treat sensory issues? does OT? or would those kids have slowly grown out of their sensory issues anyway? I've seen a lot of kids enter high quality targeted OT only to come out the very same. (my child and numerous other kids in her current school and former schools) and I've seen some kids change during OT. What's the difference? If we aren't sure it's going to work and if resources (ie $$) are limited, should we put those resources into OT or into a course of action with a better base of evidence?

 

A bite from a 6 year old is unusual and is severe aggression. (Aggression is not part of ADHD. It can be comorbid with ADHD, but is not part of the diagnosis.)

 

*shaking head yes*

 

 

 

I did forget to menion another behavior of dd5 that troubles us. She is reluctant to socialize. She is shy, but it is more than that. She just has no interest in interacting with other kids (except family and friends she's already known for years).

 

maybe do some reading up on:

aspergers

non-verbal learning disorder

 

 

 

Thanks for the replies. I will check into the ideas. We already eat a near vegetarian, anti-processed, few sweets type diet.

 

 

We did too. It became clear that it wasn't working for my kids. They needed animal protein. It broke my heart but there it was. They needed more:

zinc

iron

vitamin d (supplements...animal protein doesn't help much there except for cold water fatty fish)

 

 

As far as responding, I use a modified 123 Magic (just 1,2) with time-outs. But I also do a lot of talking, role-playing,

 

You will find the book _Transforming the Difficult Child_ very helpful..... there needs to be a shift in the amount of energy that the drama gets v. the good, easy moments. I really do understand. I have your six yo (without the agression) and your 5 yo rolled into one.

 

I am a little like dd5-persistent and not as flexible as I'd like. But I have conciously worked on being less controlling lately.

 

Me too:) One both counts. Make sure what ever is happening is happening with your voice *quiet*. Very quiet. Very very quiet. While the bad stuff needs your rxn, it needs to be done very quietly. *whispers*

 

Watching the videos is really helpful. And oddly enough, you know what helped me keep it together the most? Watching The Dog Whisper. Yes, I admit it. I learned to be calm AND assertive by watching Cesar Milan. Before immersing myself in his series, I got the calm OR the assertive part. But too often, assertive meant loud. I really didn't get that one could be both. It was life changing for my human relationships in general.

 

I think they need him desperately. He has a very slow and stubborn manner and I cannot get a fire lit under him to see how important getting a different job is to all of us. If I make suggestions, he always has a reason why waiting or going in a different direction would be better. Ugh!

 

Let go. Seriously. Right now, deal with what is rather than what you wish it were. Once the kids are getting help, then let the professionals work with him on that front. Assume that this is your life right now *as it is*, because that's what it is. Anything helpful, therapeutic etc is going to happen with him having this job and the hours that it entails. Move forward from there.

 

K

Edited March 20, 2010 by cillakat

[EKS]

As you've found, good parenting that would work for most kids is not enough and will not be enough for this dd. Based on what you've said, it really does sound like a neurological difference:

Spoke in adult language from a young age

Cannot tolerate a change in routine or expectations: rigid

Becomes highly agitated (melts down) when routine is changed

Does not socialize like other children

 

Problems with socializing are the biggest red flag whenever an evaluation is done. Her sister (dd6) also has problems socializing.

 

Please do go get an evaluation for both dd's from a developmental pediatrician or neuropsychologist. You will probably want IQ tests done because those will help with diagnosis, which is why my preference would be the neuropsych. (Specific patterns on IQ tests are very helpful in differential diagnosis. It's not about measuring IQ.) The sooner you get each girl the specific kind of help she needs, the better the long term outcome. Given the additional info about your dd5, I'll bet that you will find her described in the book The Out of Sync Child and that an evaluation by a good occupational therapist for sensory processing issues and treatment will be a good step. Ask about the OT's experience with evaluating and treating sensory processing issues before you sign on for the program. You can pm me if you'd like.

 

I agree.

[sbgrace]

I've read Transforming the Difficult Child (I love the nurtured heart approach for all kids and especially for those who are special needs or otherwise challenging). However, I think the author's newer book All Children Flourishing is a better choice to read. It's better written (less repetitive) and fleshes out and refines the nurtured heart technique he created. It's evolved over time (gotten better I believe). But the approach is wonderful.

 

I think DD5 has an underlying condition. It might be autism (it looks differently in girls and autism doesn't mean antisocial or a lot of the stuff we think before we see it can be our kids). It might be OCD. But you need a very good evaluation (developmental pediatrician or neuropsychologist would be choices for evaluations..you want someone who knows autism backwards and forwards as it's harder to accurately diagnose in girls). OCD treatment would be cognitive behavioral therapy and perhaps medication (I would look into inositol which is an over the counter supplement which can help OCD for kids prior to SSRI's). Inositol would be useful for anxiety as well. People here can help with ideas and resources for autism should that be the underlying diagnosis. But until you know what the issue is it's going to be hard to help her.

 

DD6 also needs an evaluation (something is clearly going on there too) so you know what you're dealing with for sure and can make informed decisions. Likely the nurtured heart approach will be a great help for her. It's fantastic for dealing with impulse issues and behaviors like you describe.

:grouphug: This is extremely challenging. You're a good mom. I can tell. :grouphug:

Edited March 20, 2010 by sbgrace

[Laurie4b]

What we agree on is that the sensory processing eval from an OT shouldn't take the place of the more thorough evaluation.

 

We also agree that most kids with sensory processing problems also have another diagnosis.

 

OT made a huge difference in my child. Everyone remarked that "he seemed like a different kid" from regular babysitter (a mom) to grandparents who saw him occasionally to occasional babysitter to us as parents. He was transformed. Not cured and there are still struggles, but major core things were transformed within a couple of months. YMMV but for us, it was definitely a great choice. Additionally, the kids around here who go to the premiere place ( a university setting with a national reputation) for autism spectrum disorders are pretty much all referred for OT for sensory processing treatment, so it's a normal part of treatment around here, not considered alternative treatment at all.

[DawnM]

That came to mind for me too. My 12 year old was asked to leave a couple of preschools and was asked to leave a private Kindergarden class (was told we could bring him back the next year if he matured and stopped the behavior issues!)

 

Turns out the poor kid has Asperger's. I wish we could have known this earlier....we could have worked with that. But we were told by psychologists and teachers that it was a parenting issue and we just needed to discipline better!

 

Never mind that my other kids are nothing like the above! Never mind that I was a COUNSELOR at the time and doing everything I knew to do *control* this kid.

 

It was torture for all of us until we finally figured out what was going on with him (at age 9 or 10!)

 

Dawn

 

It might be time for an evaluation for 5dd and 6dd.

 

For 5dd---first things that came to mind were OCD and Aspergers. Counseling and/or medication might make a huge difference. Food allergies might also play a part in both kids issues and might be worth looking into.

 

For 6dd, you might need an evaluation and possibly medication for the ADHD. Obviously things aren't working well right now.

 

Can you find a top notch Pediatric Psychiatrist that will look at the big picture? I like a doctor that also does some blood work for basic things like thyroid, blood sugars, anemia, thyroid, etc. as those can all play a roll in the behaviors you are seeing.

[TXMary2]

I have had a terrible day-the kind that leaves you shaky and wishing you could find a corner to crawl in and cry. I have had some issues with my kids' behavior and today was sort of the culmination of these problems all exploding simultaneously.

 

DD5 seems to have issues with wanting everything to go exactly as she has them in her mind, and when they don't, she explodes and is inconsolable. She will demand for you to do things over from the start, especially. She will scream and cry, threaten, etc. Like this morning, she had wanted to wear her cat shirt. I had set it on the rocker, but my Mom didn't know. She was helping the 2 littles to dress for homeschool group. I was gone for a wlak with oldest. I retruned to find dd5 screaming and throwing things and could barely make out "cat shirt". I got it for her, but then she demands to have her pajamas put back on so she can start over. We did not have time for that, even it it had been a reasonable request. I try to reason with her and state the time limit and that she will go as is or stay with my mom if need be, while we go to co-op. Nothing helps. Sometimes it just takes time, distractions, hugs, more time, etc. to get her to calm down. She has been this way since she was a toddler. At first, we humored her if it wasn't going to put us out too much, thinking it was just independece speaking and she would grow out of it. We phased out the enabling by the time she was 3, and started trying to instruct her out of it, asssuming from then on that repeats were just stubborness. It seems to have gotten worse, not better, and borders on OCD-weirdness. She seems physically pained by changes in her plan. Help!

 

Lakota

 

My ds6 was exactly like this for a couple of years. He seems to finally be past it. If we were driving down the road and he saw something and I didn't see it or look fast enough he would completely freak out and need me to turn around. At first I didn't do it, but if I didn't he would cry and scream until he exhausted himself. He would have to do everything his way and if anything went wrong he would do it over again. If he gets interrupted when talking he can't pick up where he left off, he has to start over. He has gotten over the crying and having fits for the most part and I think it is because I just stopped tolerating it and I suffered through his freak outs until he realized he wasn't going to get his way. I don't know if it was the best way to handle it, but it seems to have worked. I am sorry I don't really have advice. :grouphug:

[Guest]

It might be time for an evaluation for 5dd and 6dd.

 

For 5dd---first things that came to mind were OCD and Aspergers.

:iagree:

[chiguirre]

You've gotten lots of good advice. I'll just add that your dds' behavior WILL improve once you know what you're dealing with and you deal with it. Life won't always be as hard as it is now, but it might take a while to get to a better place. The first step is to get your dds evaluated by a developmental pediatrician, pediatric neurologist or pediatric psychiatrist. You're looking for a medical diagnosis, so that you can find a medical treatment (either behavioral therapy or diet or meds or all of the above).

[lakotajm]

1)5) Please consider allowing them in co-op classes only when you are there. The 5 and 6 yo need you there to interface with the rest of the group - they can't handle it alone and it's not fair to the other kids.

 

 

 

They are not just dropped off. It is a requirment that parents stay. I am usuallly there the entire time, right in the same room, with dd5. DD6 participates in the classes. Friday, dd5 got left for a short while when I was doing a nutrition class for the teens. I had left her in an art class, but she didn't stay! Sometimes the other moms just don't notice.

 

dd6's biting episode came right after the lunch we end co-op with, a time when several of the kids begin running around wildly and playing while moms finish eating or chat (shout-chat over the din.) I think it is too stimulating for her. I have decided we will have her skip the next co-op and then from then on, always just skip the lunch and go immediately after classes. I hate to be the bad guy, so I know my "You're the worst stupidest Mom in the world!" title will get pulled out for this one.;)

 

I will get an appointment with their ped and ask about evaluations. I will have to not say a word to my mom or grandma, though (harder than it sounds-we live with my Mom and visit my granny every week, in the town where their ped is), as they don't want me doing anything to make my kids feel I think they aren't "normal" (like their behavior doesn't do the trick?) They were dead-set against the counseling and tsk tsking me for it.

Sigh...can't win for losing with grandparents. They feel it is 50% just normal kid stuff, 20% my parenting and 30% my dh absence.

Thanks for all the hugs and ideas, guys!

 

Lakota

[Ritsumei]

They feel it is 50% just normal kid stuff, 20% my parenting and 30% my dh absence.

Thanks for all the hugs and ideas, guys!

Lakota

 

:glare: This sounds like WAY more than "mostly normal kid stuff" to me! And while even the best parents probably could still find room for improvement, it sounds like you're working pretty hard! As for DH's absence, lots of kids deal with dads that travel to one degree or another. It's hard. But typically not the cause of this sort of behavior, IMO.

 

Hard as it is to buck family like that, especially when you're living with them, I think you're making the best choice possible in going ahead with the appointments. One of two things will happen: you'll get the diagnoses and then with treatment see improvements - in which case they will probably see you are right. (This is, IMO the far more likely scenario!) OR, your doctor (and a second opinion) will say, "There's nothing wrong here." In which case you'll have to suck it up and admit they were right. But I don't think that's very likely at all.

 

You and your DH get to make the parenting decisions - including health care decisions - even if you are living in someone else's home.