Public school, 3rd grade math ( a vent)

[DawnL]

My oldest is in public school, and in 3rd grade. I remember reading another thread where several moms were talking about how awful the "new" math is, and it starts in 3rd grade. I was hoping to get other experiences on this.

 

My dd's class has "learned" multiplication. But not really. Meaning, they were taught the concept of it, and then taught ways to "figure out" the answer. My dd was doing her homework one night, and on her scratch paper, she was drawing a picture to figure out a multiplication problem. Something like 8x4. A picture! Seriously? That's what they taught her?

 

Another problem she was figuring out, she kept adding the 4's, and would draw a box around each answer. Then add another 4, until she reached her intended answer. Um, shouldn't that be skip counting or something?

 

Last week, she told me that her class is working on division. But they don't know their multiplication facts yet! She has been out sick all week (some annoying viral thing giving her a fever and making her tired). I got an email from her substitute teacher (her regular teacher is on maternity leave) saying they finished division this week, and will be starting fractions next week.

 

Now, I'm all for moving at a decent pace, but....they don't know multiplication yet!!!! Please tell me I'm not the only person who thinks the school is completely nutso?

 

I have my dd working on a 3rd grade Kumon Multiplication workbook, and I intend to do division next. You know, if I need to teach her this stuff, why am I sending her to school? I was planning on waiting until middle school before I brought her home. But what if it's worse next year? Why afterschool if you can homeschool, you know?

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Dawn

[chiguirre]

Hmm, that sounds like they've introduced the concept but they haven't taught it for mastery yet. Do you know what the curriculum objective is this year? Is it just an introduction and they'll revisit the topic next year or will they expect the kids to understand multiplication and have their facts memorized this year? In any case, the Kumon workbook sounds like a good idea.

[Pamela H in Texas]

My daughter attended 4th grade (for 8 weeks) in one of the best school districts in the country (according to national magazines). The kids did not have the multiplication facts memorized. They reviewed the concept and did speed drills, still not having gotten through all of them before my daughter was pulled back out. I was appalled as the curriculum we had introduced it first in 1st grade and expected mastery in 2nd. I thought 3rd grade was normal for mastery.

 

But I'm on teacher boards now and there are 5th and 6th grade teachers lamenting over kids not knowing the facts. They claim the 2nd-4th grade teachers claim kids aren't "ready." They don't understand as 3rd graders have always been expected to master the facts in the past. And kids certainly aren't dumber or with LESS experience.

 

It's ridiculous really. There will be a few kids that aren't ready at 8 yrs old, but the majority could learn then and definitely by 10. They just are being dumbed down.

[creekland]

 

But I'm on teacher boards now and there are 5th and 6th grade teachers lamenting over kids not knowing the facts. They claim the 2nd-4th grade teachers claim kids aren't "ready." They don't understand as 3rd graders have always been expected to master the facts in the past. And kids certainly aren't dumber or with LESS experience.

 

It's ridiculous really. There will be a few kids that aren't ready at 8 yrs old, but the majority could learn then and definitely by 10. They just are being dumbed down.

 

I work in our local public high school. The majority of the highschoolers we get do not know math facts. Calculators are introduced as early as 1st grade now, and as long as they know how to push the right buttons, that is considered sufficient. It's impossible for pretty much anyone to do fractions without a calculator - even simple calculations. Ditto squares or square roots. None know long division or more than single digit multiplication (and many don't know those either).

 

Our school district switched to Everyday Math and USCMP (if I got those letters right) 4 years ago for the upper grades, 6 years ago for the lower grades.

 

It's a huge reason why I homeschool my own - started 4 years ago - 2 years too late for my youngest who caught the lower level change. I spent a year catching him up and he's still not as talented as his brothers, in my opinion, due to missing critical info at critical times. He's as talented in every other academic way, moreso in some ways.

[Lisa in Jax]

Dawn,

 

"New" math is the entire reason I pulled my dd out of a good private school and brought her home. It took about a year of Singapore Math and MCP math to get her back on target. She's in 11th grade now, taking honor s pre-calculus, so it didn't affect her long-term. I shudder to think what would have happened if we had allowed her to continue with that cruddy math program.

 

Your question, "Why afterschool if you can homeschool, you know?" is dead on. Why, indeed, if you're not happy with what she's learning?

 

Lisa

[Perry]

Reform math is what got us started homeschooling. Find out the name of the curriculum your district is using, then take a look at these sites:

Illinois Loop

NYC Hold

Mathematically Correct

[Sara R]

Yep, they're crazy. But it's not the teacher; it's the curriculum. Buy stock in Kumon. (Do they have stock?)

 

I'm afterschooling this year with Kumon and Rod and Staff. I hope all 3 kids will be in a charter school next year that teaches Saxon, and I want them to be prepared.

[msjones]

Hmm, that sounds like they've introduced the concept but they haven't taught it for mastery yet. Do you know what the curriculum objective is this year? Is it just an introduction and they'll revisit the topic next year or will they expect the kids to understand multiplication and have their facts memorized this year? In any case, the Kumon workbook sounds like a good idea.

 

:iagree: They'll come back to it later in the year or next year.

 

If you are unhappy with reform math, speak to the teacher so you'll know her plan. Then, fill in the gaps at home.

 

As a math tutor in a district with reform math, I'm quite familiar with the gaps. You'll probably need to drill math facts until she's fluent with them. You'll probably want to teach traditional algorithms.

 

If you do these things, your daughter just may enjoy the reform math. I have seen it happen! Kids tend to enjoy the 'why' of math (like the multiplication pictures she drew), especially if they can already plug through the algorithms and facts. You might even like it!

 

(Disclaimer: Notice I said "might," and don't flame me if you are a die-hard anti-reform math mom. I understand and sympathize with your views. I realize that many people do not want this type of math education for their children, and am merely presenting my experiences. ;))

[kpupg]

Please tell me I'm not the only person who thinks the school is completely nutso?

 

You are not the only person who thinks the school is completely nutso.

 

 

You know, if I need to teach her this stuff, why am I sending her to school? I was planning on waiting until middle school before I brought her home. But what if it's worse next year? Why afterschool if you can homeschool, you know?

 

Good questions. We ended up bringing the kids home, too. Our issues were slightly different, but same underlying principle, I think. You are not alone with this.

 

:grouphug:

 

Karen

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

My dh insists upon the kids going to public school, so I told him that I don't care what he says, I'm not having them learn that ridiculous math. I teach them math at home. I was planning on writing a letter to the school board next year (my kids are only in K and 1st grade) that my children were to be excused from "math" class and I would send worksheets for them to do during that time.

 

Well, just before winter break, we got a letter home about how there will be a "Math Review Panel" this summer to evaluate the math curriculum and to make recommendations for a new math program. In the meantime, they will now be sending flash cards home with students for parents to work on math facts with their children. Apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks that actually learning math and memorizing math facts is vital. I'm holding out some hope that this panel will choose a more tradtional approach to math. If not, I'm definitely writing that letter!

[creekland]

You might even like it!

 

 

 

No flames here. I LIKED the new math when my son was coming home from elementary school knowing his polygons and other assorted knowledge that most youngsters don't know. I thought it was great. What I didn't realize was how much of the basics they had skipped - or went over quickly - to add in the other "stuff." By missing the basics - and my not catching on to it - he ended up quite a bit behind. Someday I may forgive myself for that oversight, but 4 years later, I'm not there yet.

 

If one can learn the new stuff AND not have gaps, it possibly is a good program, but I haven't seen it happen that way. The only thing I've seen is an incredible dependency on calculators - and group work. To me, this is a theory that is not working out well in practice - at least - not in our school district. This past year only our elementary school succeeded in state testing. Previous years both the elementary and middle schools had 'ok' scores. High school is dismal at best. Many of our graduates go to college and test into remedial math courses - even kids who took our 'honors' courses. We dropped AP a few years back since kids couldn't score well - roughly a half dozen bothered even taking the test. A few kids do well, but precious few.

[DawnL]

No flames here. I LIKED the new math when my son was coming home from elementary school knowing his polygons and other assorted knowledge that most youngsters don't know. I thought it was great. What I didn't realize was how much of the basics they had skipped - or went over quickly - to add in the other "stuff." By missing the basics - and my not catching on to it - he ended up quite a bit behind. Someday I may forgive myself for that oversight, but 4 years later, I'm not there yet.

 

If one can learn the new stuff AND not have gaps, it possibly is a good program, but I haven't seen it happen that way. The only thing I've seen is an incredible dependency on calculators - and group work. To me, this is a theory that is not working out well in practice - at least - not in our school district. This past year only our elementary school succeeded in state testing. Previous years both the elementary and middle schools had 'ok' scores. High school is dismal at best. Many of our graduates go to college and test into remedial math courses - even kids who took our 'honors' courses. We dropped AP a few years back since kids couldn't score well - roughly a half dozen bothered even taking the test. A few kids do well, but precious few.

 

 

Yes, this is our school district as well. My dd9 is my oldest, and my only one in the public school system, so I can't speak from experience on kids in middle school and up. But I have looked up scores and standards in our school district, and only the elementary school is passing. Every school older than that is a failure. And now I know why!!

 

So I gather it just gets worse, in 4th and 5th grade? I really don't understand how it was ever considered a good idea to not drill math facts into the heads of kids. My dd has never been even remotely a remedial student, so the fact that she doesn't have these memorized is alarming to me.

 

I tried telling my mom how inadequate the 3rd grade math curriculum is, and she said, "Aw! Parents always think the math is inadequate. You sound like me when you were in school."

 

Um, I don't think so. I know her and my MIL both will freak out when I do eventually pull dd from school to join her brothers at home.

 

In the meantime, I'm wondering if just Kumon is enough. I am using Math U See with my ds6 and he loves it and is doing great. I wonder if I should get the appropriate program for dd to do at home, too.

[creekland]

I really don't understand how it was ever considered a good idea to not drill math facts into the heads of kids. My dd has never been even remotely a remedial student, so the fact that she doesn't have these memorized is alarming to me.

 

I tried telling my mom how inadequate the 3rd grade math curriculum is, and she said, "Aw! Parents always think the math is inadequate. You sound like me when you were in school."

 

 

 

I have asked (at school) about this. The answer I'm told is, "with calculators there's no need to have these facts memorized any longer. Some kids will pick it up anyway. The rest won't need it. There are other things they need more."

 

I have since found it interesting on the high school and/or college board how parents are reporting that some college profs are no longer allowing calculators in their math classes (or limited use) since so few kids know the math behind the buttons. I've taken those reports back to school as well, but they fall on deaf ears for the most part.

 

Both my mom and dad were career ps teachers. My uncle was a career ps high school math teacher (and college prof afterward). None were thrilled that we opted to pull ours out at 8th, 6th, and 4th grades. They all absolutely feel we have done the right thing now. I allow them to quiz my boys (the type of quizzing others condemn on this board - verbal quizzing - some written from my uncle). My kids easily pass. My oldest is inline for some good merit aid from colleges next year. My middle son scores even higher on practice tests.

 

I'm hoping my youngest can catch up math-wise. This year I've seen a lot of improvement. In all other subjects, he's sky high with his knowledge and ability. With math, he's above average, but not as high as he should/could have been. Those formative years are important IMO.

 

I substitute teach math/science at our local public high school. I see a variety of classes and have seen their progression over the past 11 years. It's not pretty. People blame the teachers generally. I don't. They tend to know what they are doing, but the system/curriculum and time constraints - as well as oodles of behavior issues at times - put a severe limit on them.

[vkay]

My daughter attended 4th grade (for 8 weeks) in one of the best school districts in the country (according to national magazines). The kids did not have the multiplication facts memorized. They reviewed the concept and did speed drills, still not having gotten through all of them before my daughter was pulled back out. I was appalled as the curriculum we had introduced it first in 1st grade and expected mastery in 2nd. I thought 3rd grade was normal for mastery.

 

But I'm on teacher boards now and there are 5th and 6th grade teachers lamenting over kids not knowing the facts. They claim the 2nd-4th grade teachers claim kids aren't "ready." They don't understand as 3rd graders have always been expected to master the facts in the past. And kids certainly aren't dumber or with LESS experience.

 

It's ridiculous really. There will be a few kids that aren't ready at 8 yrs old, but the majority could learn then and definitely by 10. They just are being dumbed down.

Oh oh oh oh, maybe you will know what I've been scratching my head about for sometime now: It sounds like my dd went to the same school that you're describing. She went to 4th grade for just a few months. I was less than impressed with their math skills and we are in what sounds like the same school district - best in state...etc. So here's what I can't figure out.......

 

Somewhere between 4th grade and high school, they turn up the heat and produce amazing results with kids. The kids graduating from the high school here are 99% on SATs (Math and English), one I know had a perfect score on the English portion (twice), 8-9 AP classes, getting into colleges at a sophomore level......really stellar results. So much so that the kids that I'm describing are sometimes not even in the top 10% of their class!!! That's how good all of them are.

 

So maybe being on the teacher boards you can help me figure out how they do that. I went from laughing at the level of math in 4th to seriously doubting myself that I can compete in later grades. Somewhere in there they hit a turbo boost or something.:confused:

 

So maybe my lesson learned is not to be so quick to judge what they're doing with kids in ps. Maybe they have their own pace, which grade per grade doesn't always stack up to ours (or vica versa), but somewhere around the finish line they do just fine???

[TravelingChris]

I have to say that I abhor the idea of group work and papers in math. Is this some weird way to level the playing field? Everyone knows that most people who are very good at math and science are less comfortable with groups and papers. That holds double for the Aspergers syndrome children.

 

Anyway, showing in pictures what multiplication means is good. Leaving it at that is bad. I like the old way of doing things where you introduce multiplication in first grade 2*2 level and master in third grade with memorization and multiple digit multiplication. Then in fourth it is battle with division and fifth is fractions. Sixth would be decimals, percents, etc. Then pre-algebra would be all standard non Algebra things like more geometry, ratios, exponents, scientific notation, etc.

[creekland]

 

Somewhere between 4th grade and high school, they turn up the heat and produce amazing results with kids. The kids graduating from the high school here are 99% on SATs (Math and English), one I know had a perfect score on the English portion (twice), 8-9 AP classes, getting into colleges at a sophomore level......really stellar results. So much so that the kids that I'm describing are sometimes not even in the top 10% of their class!!! That's how good all of them are.

 

...

 

So maybe my lesson learned is not to be so quick to judge what they're doing with kids in ps. Maybe they have their own pace, which grade per grade doesn't always stack up to ours (or vica versa), but somewhere around the finish line they do just fine???

 

I'm envious, but not ready to move just to be in a capable district. I suspect the key might be to know your own school district, then decide on whether to homeschool or not (if doing it for academic reasons, of course). I figured statistically there had to be some schools out there getting top scores nationally. It sure isn't ours. My own son is up there though. I seriously doubt he would have been had I left his education up to our district. It's paying off now with the merit aid for college. :)

 

For what it's worth, PA is generally around mid-pack in the US for test scores (slightly lower than middle). And our school is generally mid-pack within PA. There are better schools out there. There are also worse. Know your own - not just by what they say about themselves (ours is great if you ask them), but by their scores nationally. Granted, not all kids test well, but that should statistically happen at all schools.

 

Beware of schools that don't offer AP testing too. Ours dropped them in favor of "College in the High School" - a program allowing high school teachers to teach college level classes (for credit) in high school. As I've found recently in our college search, more selective colleges have learned to NOT give credit for those. There's too much grade inflation to accurately assess a student's knowledge. It makes sense considering we rarely had a student get even a 3 on AP tests, but often get those with A's in this new program.

[creekland]

I have to say that I abhor the idea of group work and papers in math. Is this some weird way to level the playing field?

 

The theory is that kids learn better from each other. Talented kids "get" the concept, then teach others in their group. It's supposed to help the talented kids since when one teaches, one learns more. It's supposed to help the lesser talented kids by having them be more comfortable learning from their peers and eager to keep up with their group.

 

In reality at our school, talented kids get it and then the others copy never having learned anything more than good copying ability (which they already had to some extent). When they do individual tests, math scores are really dismal - from almost all kids - and using simple questions. An added "bonus" (tongue in cheek) is that kids learn to rely on their groups and don't trust themselves to come up with even enough info to test well individually.

 

If teachers didn't curve or offer extra credit, there'd be an average of one or maybe two A's per class of about 25 - and that's using simple questions for testing. Some classes even with a curve only have one or two A's per class. Should I add that they get to use their "Math Journal" for these tests too? This is a journal that keeps all formulas and theorems in it, sometimes with examples.

 

One of my middle son's best buddies from school (equally talented academically) just struggled to pull out a C in Pre-Calc. His problem isn't so much understanding the Pre-Calc concepts, it's lack of knowledge from his Alg and Geo classes that have caught up with him (his parents asked for my assistance). Since math builds on itself, not knowing those basics solidly have hurt him. And he's fortunate. He missed the later change to the curriculum that caught my youngest. He still knows basic multiplication and division that later years don't know.

[Melinda in VT]

Our school uses Everyday Math, but they also drill math facts separately. Our state sets standards for math fact knowledge by grade level. These increased last year, so the expectation is now higher than it was with my oldest.

 

In third grade, they focus on multiplication facts for about 2/3 of the year and then introduce division in the last third. In fourth grade, they continue to work on mastery of both multiplication and division.

 

It's not necessary to have all your multiplication facts memorized before you can understand the concept of division. And our school likes to use the triangular math fact flash cards, which cover related multiplication and division problems on the same card.

[LizzyBee]

Drawing pictures is not new math; it's a problem-solving strategy. It's something people have been doing for a very long time. I went to a very traditional school that did not teach new math, and I teach my kids to use strategies like that. My philosophy is that math is not just about memorizing, although we do plenty of that; but real-life math is all about seeing patterns and solving problems. That means having more than one strategy available.

 

That being said, I do think kids should memorize their math facts and I think it's disturbing that so many teachers find it unnecessary.

[Mynyel]

My oldest is in public school, and in 3rd grade. I remember reading another thread where several moms were talking about how awful the "new" math is, and it starts in 3rd grade. I was hoping to get other experiences on this.

 

My dd's class has "learned" multiplication. But not really. Meaning, they were taught the concept of it, and then taught ways to "figure out" the answer. My dd was doing her homework one night, and on her scratch paper, she was drawing a picture to figure out a multiplication problem. Something like 8x4. A picture! Seriously? That's what they taught her?

 

Another problem she was figuring out, she kept adding the 4's, and would draw a box around each answer. Then add another 4, until she reached her intended answer. Um, shouldn't that be skip counting or something?

 

Last week, she told me that her class is working on division. But they don't know their multiplication facts yet! She has been out sick all week (some annoying viral thing giving her a fever and making her tired). I got an email from her substitute teacher (her regular teacher is on maternity leave) saying they finished division this week, and will be starting fractions next week.

 

Now, I'm all for moving at a decent pace, but....they don't know multiplication yet!!!! Please tell me I'm not the only person who thinks the school is completely nutso?

 

I have my dd working on a 3rd grade Kumon Multiplication workbook, and I intend to do division next. You know, if I need to teach her this stuff, why am I sending her to school? I was planning on waiting until middle school before I brought her home. But what if it's worse next year? Why afterschool if you can homeschool, you know?

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Dawn

 

 

You are not nutso.

 

I pulled my daughter in 2nd grade when the teacher said she needed to work on "memorizing" how to add money. Oh yes, my daughter could tell you that 25+25=50 but if she tried to do it on paper? she would get 410. She didn't know how to carry or borrow! They wanted her to memorize. I think not.

 

My niece is in 5th grade (although she shouldn't be she is an aspie and learns slower, she isn't dumb by any stretch, just learns slower) and they have her factoring. She has trouble dividing, and CANNOT get the concept of factoring. She can't do fractions either.

 

Oh but isn't the school she is going to nice?? If she doesn't complete all her homework in a week it is ok, we won't hold it against her grades. We know she doesn't learn as fast. Oh and aren't we grand? We are going to keep pushing her through the grades because it is better for her socially! Oh yes again, the school actually told her that. This poor baby too, since she has the issues she does doesn't think like a typical 11yo (just turned) she is more in line with a 8 or 9yo. Better for her socially????? Thats why she comes home and works on her math for 2 hours every night because she "wants to do it like the other kids" <--- Her words not her moms or mine. Makes me want to cry for her! My sister is a single mom going to school full time (beauty school). She doesn't have enough confidence in herself to homeschool, I have asked her. So she has asked several times for her daughter to be held back and they won't. It is absolutely ridiculous! She is going to a math tutor now and I told my sister that we shall see how that goes and if it doesn't help much then I will see what I can do. I am 2000 miles away so I said we can do "training sessions" via the internet and webcam :)

 

Anywho....the schools have their agenda they need to push through to get everything in so they can keep pushing the kids through. I realize all ps aren't bad but when you have this many people spanning this many states complaining, there are problems. Hence, I homeschool :)

 

*steps off soapbox*:tongue_smilie:

 

:001_smile:

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

[Chris in VA]

I am all for memorizing multiplication facts--absolutely, positively.

 

However, I disagree that drawing a picture is useless. Think of one of the most popular, accepted math curricula in the Homeschool World--Math-U-See. MUS uses blocks to show this concept--and says multiplication is "making rectangles."

 

Thinking thru a problem, using pictures/manipulatives/models to get the answer is a good, solid math strategy. But you need balance. At the "arithmetic level," if the curriculum just leaves it at that and doesn't offer quicker, more efficient ways (like memorizing facts and using standard algorithms) to reach an answer, or says the answer doesn't matter as long as the process is right, they do a disservice to kids who want to go beyond arithmetic. Models/thinking it thru, etc. are all used in upper math, too, but it sure helps if one doesn't have to figure out the simple stuff that way first!

[Ellie]

You know, if I need to teach her this stuff, why am I sending her to school? I was planning on waiting until middle school before I brought her home. But what if it's worse next year? Why afterschool if you can homeschool, you know?

Those would be my questions for you, too. Why wait to bring her home?

[Pamela H in Texas]

Vkay,

 

I would guess that the issue comes down to that a kid can learn most of K-8 math in just several months to a couple years when he has strong teachers and hasn't given up on math. It's just like how many relaxed and better-late-than-early homeschoolers wait until 10 or 12 years old to get more schoolish.

 

I personally think that schoolishness can (maybe even should) wait. But I am definitely one for early mastery of skills (reading, math facts, etc). Schools are backwards. They start the schoolishness sooooo early, but mastery lags.

 

Just to be clear, I did not pull my daughter out because of the low math standards in 4th grade. I didn't even do it because of the low standards overall. I knew I was sending my daughter for babysitting as she was well beyond a 4th grade level. I thought I needed the babysitting due to circumstances at the time. We found a way to make changes though when my son's life was at risk because of school. It just made sense to bring dd home also.

 

However, I have thought poorly of them having these kids 7 hours per day for YEARS and them being so low in level. I realize there are lots of reasons for this - some of them valid, some of them excuses.

 

As for how it's turned out? My daughter finished through Calc II and Stats at 16. So we didn't do so shabby of a job ourselves :)

[sheryl]

Dawn, I heard this from other people....the ps goes tooooo fasssssst in math before they master it. They do need to learn the fundamentals before moving on. There is nooooo way "most" children can be taught "successfully" how to divide in 1 week. That's not even logical....even knowing multiplication. There are steps and techniques that need to be practiced and mastered and that would take more than 5 days.

 

If there are issues now, then there will likely be issues of pressing too fast on higher learning concepts. I'd write out your concerns and back them up. Ask for a meeting and calmly explain why this is "not" teaching such and thus.

 

You could also continue to work alongside her using a different math program. Or, reinforce her current math by teaching it correctly.

 

Lastly, you could bring her home to homeschool!

 

Key to keep in mind is, if they are "time oriented" and only teaching for the goal then they are missing the boat and could care less if a child learns. If that is how they are teaching they are simply teaching it, checking off "yep, taught that, time to move on", and move on to another topic then MUCH content and skill building will be lost.

 

HTH!

[Paula in MS]

I have asked (at school) about this. The answer I'm told is, "with calculators there's no need to have these facts memorized any longer.

 

This isn't very logical. Why learn, history and science? You can just google what you don't know. What's wrong with using our brains?

[dangermom]

My school district introduced Everyday Math this year, and so I will not be sending my kids to PS until high school, if they do go.

 

Yes, I have my kids draw pictures, and of course I want them to understand the math they're doing. But as far as I can tell EM is very good at confusing children and denying understanding, unless you have a really amazing mathy-person as a teacher, which of course most teachers aren't. Our program works very well for us, and I'm happy to see my daughters' progress and understanding.

[forty-two]

Oh oh oh oh, maybe you will know what I've been scratching my head about for sometime now: It sounds like my dd went to the same school that you're describing. She went to 4th grade for just a few months. I was less than impressed with their math skills and we are in what sounds like the same school district - best in state...etc. So here's what I can't figure out.......

 

Somewhere between 4th grade and high school, they turn up the heat and produce amazing results with kids. The kids graduating from the high school here are 99% on SATs (Math and English), one I know had a perfect score on the English portion (twice), 8-9 AP classes, getting into colleges at a sophomore level......really stellar results. So much so that the kids that I'm describing are sometimes not even in the top 10% of their class!!! That's how good all of them are.

 

So maybe being on the teacher boards you can help me figure out how they do that. I went from laughing at the level of math in 4th to seriously doubting myself that I can compete in later grades. Somewhere in there they hit a turbo boost or something.:confused:

 

So maybe my lesson learned is not to be so quick to judge what they're doing with kids in ps. Maybe they have their own pace, which grade per grade doesn't always stack up to ours (or vica versa), but somewhere around the finish line they do just fine???

 

You said "they turn up the heat", and that's *exactly* what they do - only they don't bother to do so gently, or make sure that *they* have prepared their students. The schools - generally in the more affluent, suburban, "successful" districts - have a *huge* jump in expectations somewhere b/w 7th and 9th, without any warning, and the burden is on the student to sink or swim. Any time parents try to complain that their expectations are unfair, the onus is placed on the student - "Maybe your child just isn't honors material". Since these districts also tend to function as gatekeepers, deliberately limiting access to honors/AP/IB courses, parents often don't want to rock the boat too much, for fear their kid won't get into the honors track.

 

How do those schools still end up with such fabulous scores and stats? Simple. They are full of the kids of smart, professional parents (and are likely to be smart themselves), plus their parents value education, want their kids to succeed, and - most importantly - have the time, knowledge, and money necessary to make that happen. And so parents reteach lessons, or full-up afterschool, or hire tutors. And the school reaps the benefit.

 

(Some sources:

H. Wu talks about the giant leap b/w K-8 math and algebra (pp6-8 have nice graphs).

Article about "star schools" and gatekeeping (summary here)

Kitchen table math has many, many tales of so-called "good" schools, and the lengths parents have to go to keep their kids afloat.)

[Jean in Newcastle]

This isn't very logical. Why learn, history and science? You can just google what you don't know. What's wrong with using our brains?

 

Oh - but I've heard this! You shouldn't memorize any history dates or science formulas because you can just google it.

[DawnL]

I am all for memorizing multiplication facts--absolutely, positively.

 

However, I disagree that drawing a picture is useless. Think of one of the most popular, accepted math curricula in the Homeschool World--Math-U-See. MUS uses blocks to show this concept--and says multiplication is "making rectangles."

 

Thinking thru a problem, using pictures/manipulatives/models to get the answer is a good, solid math strategy. But you need balance. At the "arithmetic level," if the curriculum just leaves it at that and doesn't offer quicker, more efficient ways (like memorizing facts and using standard algorithms) to reach an answer, or says the answer doesn't matter as long as the process is right, they do a disservice to kids who want to go beyond arithmetic. Models/thinking it thru, etc. are all used in upper math, too, but it sure helps if one doesn't have to figure out the simple stuff that way first!

 

 

I agree that drawing a picture is a good way to teach multiplication. And we use Math U See for my ds6. I am all for using manipulatives, pictures, etc, to teach how it works. But my dd9 had out a scratch paper, and she was using a picture to figure out 8x4. It would be one thing if they were checking to see if she "got it" and wanted her to draw a picture to show she understood the concept. But that wasn't how it was going for her. She's actually understood the concept of multiplication since kindergarten.

 

I totally agree with you. Once the concept is understood, they need to be taught quicker ways to figure things, such as memorization of multiplication facts.

 

Her substitute teacher said they will be starting fractions next week. It just boggles my mind. We discussed fractions before, and I remember recently having her help me with baking and discussing fractions. We will be touching on this at home, too.

[EKS]

The reform math programs used in the local schools (public and private) are a major reason I homeschool.

[DawnL]

I asked at school today, and they are using the McGraw Hill Mathematics. That was the name of the math book the secretary showed me. she said that when her dd, who is a graduate of our school district, was in school, they used Saxon math. Talk about a step down!!

[Carmen_and_Company]

My oldest is in public school, and in 3rd grade. I remember reading another thread where several moms were talking about how awful the "new" math is, and it starts in 3rd grade. I was hoping to get other experiences on this.

 

My dd's class has "learned" multiplication. But not really. Meaning, they were taught the concept of it, and then taught ways to "figure out" the answer. My dd was doing her homework one night, and on her scratch paper, she was drawing a picture to figure out a multiplication problem. Something like 8x4. A picture! Seriously? That's what they taught her?

 

Another problem she was figuring out, she kept adding the 4's, and would draw a box around each answer. Then add another 4, until she reached her intended answer. Um, shouldn't that be skip counting or something?

 

Last week, she told me that her class is working on division. But they don't know their multiplication facts yet! She has been out sick all week (some annoying viral thing giving her a fever and making her tired). I got an email from her substitute teacher (her regular teacher is on maternity leave) saying they finished division this week, and will be starting fractions next week.

 

Now, I'm all for moving at a decent pace, but....they don't know multiplication yet!!!! Please tell me I'm not the only person who thinks the school is completely nutso?

 

I have my dd working on a 3rd grade Kumon Multiplication workbook, and I intend to do division next. You know, if I need to teach her this stuff, why am I sending her to school? I was planning on waiting until middle school before I brought her home. But what if it's worse next year? Why afterschool if you can homeschool, you know?

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Dawn

 

Reading & mathematics( Everyday Mathematics) were the two reasons I began homeschooling my eldest. We began as afterschoolers & within 1.5 years started hs'ing full time.

 

If you can begin know, go for it. Hs'ing affords you the ability to lay a solid academic background for your child. It's harder when they're older as you have to deal with learned behaviors or may find you must remediate holes in core subjects that may slow ongoing progress.

 

My dd, middle DC, began hs'ing in kindergarten, and I had the opportunity to instill work ethic, and to provide her a classical education as a foundation. As a result, she entered 8th grade with a good foundation and is holding her own with an accelerated curriculum that utilizes high school and college texts and literature within the 8th grade curriculum map.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Carmen_and_Company