s/o opinion on education, work, gender and lifespan focus.........

[Joanne]

I wonder............Joanne............if your life had turned out differently, if you would feel the same way. What if you had never divorced? What if you had a stable, and even, happy marriage, where the husband's income more than met your family's needs? What if you had a husband who felt that his paycheck was completely yours? He tells you that his career is only as good as it is because of you. Not just tells you, but tells anyone who will listen. Because every day that he walks out the door he knows his children are safe with their mom, getting a great education, learning to be upstanding citizens, etc, etc.

 

 

Michele

 

That's a fair "wonder". :) I pondered the same thing. In the end, or at least at this moment, I tend to believe it's a function of the ages of my children and a reaction to how *I* used to approach SAHMing.

 

Except for the paycheck, I had that husband now. :001_smile:

[Remudamom]

Sorry you feel that way. I was simply sharing a perspective and opinion I felt was on topic for many of the decisions board members make here.

 

You tend to be as bossy as I am; we just typically boss from opposite sides.

 

Absolutely, but I tend to boss just myself.

[Carol in Cal.]

I wonder............Joanne............if your life had turned out differently, if you would feel the same way. What if you had never divorced? What if you had a stable, and even, happy marriage, where the husband's income more than met your family's needs? What if you had a husband who felt that his paycheck was completely yours? He tells you that his career is only as good as it is because of you. Not just tells you, but tells anyone who will listen. Because every day that he walks out the door he knows his children are safe with their mom, getting a great education, learning to be upstanding citizens, etc, etc.

 

Michele

 

But where they might become unfair is if you think that your husband is the way that you describe mostly because of your actions, and that that is more or less within your control. By extension, you might think that your daughters ought to be looking for guys like that, and planning a life like that.

 

Those ideas concern me because even if you have a guy like that today, he might not be like that tomorrow; and if he changes (and they do change, some of them, or discover that it's inconvenient to be so virtuous, or whatever), then there will be no recourse for you and no recourse for your children. Not legally, not socially, not in any physical way except ethically. For some of us, the ethical issues would be enough. But not for everyone.

 

The flip side to that is that if one is always living completely defensively, it can be very negative as well, for that person, their spouse, and their children.

 

There are not a lot of really good options here. And that is very very unfortunate.

 

I hear your compassion for Joanne in your note, but I also think that there is some merit in what she is talking about, although I would not put it exactly as she does. I don't think that women necessarily have to be 'outward focussed' to be happy or satisfied or productive. But they should not HAVE TO be exclusively inwardly focussed. They should not feel that they are WRONG if they are not EXCLUSIVELY focussed into their homes.

[Hillary in KS]

 

I am sorry your life has been so hard this last year. Truly, my heart aches for all that has happened to you. That being said, I do think it is important not to project your life's disappointments into a blanket statement that ALL women should follow.

 

 

An insightful post, especially this comment.

 

I am also reminded of my favorite psychology professor in college. He repeatedly cautioned us in the first semester of class not to think that by taking his class we were now qualified to diagnose our friends and family.:001_smile:

[Mom24bz1g]

But where they might become unfair is if you think that your husband is the way that you describe mostly because of your actions, and that that is more or less within your control. By extension, you might think that your daughters ought to be looking for guys like that, and planning a life like that.ee

 

 

Those ideas concern me because even if you have a guy like that today, he might not be like that tomorrow; and if he changes (and they do change, some of them, or discover that it's inconvenient to be so virtuous, or whatever), then there will be no recourse for you and no recourse for your children. Not legally, not socially, not in any physical way except ethically. For some of us, the ethical issues would be enough. But not for everyone.

 

The flip side to that is that if one is always living completely defensively, it can be very negative as well, for that person, their spouse, and their children.

 

There are not a lot of really good options here. And that is very very unfortunate.

 

I hear your compassion for Joanne in your note, but I also think that there is some merit in what she is talking about, although I would not put it exactly as she does. I don't think that women necessarily have to be 'outward focussed' to be happy or satisfied or productive. But they should not HAVE TO be exclusively inwardly focussed. They should not feel that they are WRONG if they are not EXCLUSIVELY focussed into their homes.

 

I only have one daughter and I tell her that I want her go to college and/or get some type of lifeskill that she could support herself and her children if she needs to. Two of my best friends are divorced. Not by their choice so I completely understand the need for a woman to be able to support herself.

 

My husband is the way he is because of God and his choice to live life the way he wants. We have been married 23 years. I don't control him. He doesn't control me. I support him and he is even more supportive of me. He says the things I posted, to me, because he feels them. Could he one day not feel them. Absolutely. However, I don't dwell on it, but do encourage, and even talk to dd now at age 5, about going to college and getting some type of degree that she could do from home if needed. Music teaching. Haircutting. Different types of computer jobs.

 

My kids' violin teacher makes $60 per hour. Holy moly that's a lot of money. Anyone could support themselves with that!!

 

So, it's not that I disagree 100% with the premise of what I think Joanne is saying. I just don't think, especially when a woman has young kids, that anything outside the home is more important than what happens in the home.

 

Michele

 

I feel for Joanne and know that she is a deep-thinker and really wondered if her life had been different if she thinks she would feel differently today. Clearly what happens to us in life changes our perceptions of life.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

So, it's not that I disagree 100% with the premise of what I think Joanne is saying. I just don't think, especially when a woman has young kids, that anything outside the home is more important than what happens in the home.

 

 

I agree about this, totally. And I would add that I really enjoyed being home, and did not feel trapped or frustrated or depressed or unfulfilled. Of all my friends, I was the happiest to be home.

[Mom24bz1g]

That's a fair "wonder". :) I pondered the same thing. In the end, or at least at this moment, I tend to believe it's a function of the ages of my children and a reaction to how *I* used to approach SAHMing.

 

Except for the paycheck, I had that husband now. :001_smile:

 

I can totally relate to the kids getting older because I am now finding myself there after 14 years of mothering. I have had a lot of changes happen because of not having any young one's need me so much.

 

However, I have entered this new phase as simply the next phase of my life versus thinking mothers of young children should do this or that.

 

I actually went back and added the divorced part to my OP because I know that you have found that special man now. But, my wonder was what if you had found him first and life had been pretty spectacular - would you feel differently?

 

You'll never know how much "meeting" you when my oldest was 2 changed the parent and, eventuallly, wife that I have become. So, while I disagree with a lot of what you say "now". At the time of my life that I needed something different, your words were Godsend. So, maybe without earning an income and just being a SAHmother you were doing "more" in life just by being who you were at the time.

 

The one part I do agree with and encourage all girls I know, is to get some type of degree or something that they can use if life falls apart to support themselves/kids.

 

I hope 2010 is your year and life comes together in many ways for you.

 

God Bless,

Michele

[PineFarmMom]

:iagree:

 

I have a temperament that tends to explode when I do too many outside things. And, sadly, I explode upon my children. So, as paradoxical as it may sound, giving too much of my time and talents to my church has had the effect of causing my children to dislike church and feel less spiritual...because I get stretched too thin and complain, run late,forget things, criticize otherwise ignorable behavior, etc.

 

So I am a better Mom when I spend most of my time homeschooling them, cooking and cleaning when I can, and only doing an occasional outside project. We do once-a-week homeshool co-op (including community service projects)and oldest has Tae Kwon Do. I am a teacher for the kids in church. But when I begin saying yes to everyone's great ideas of what "we" ought to do, I flip out. I only have 3 kids, not 6 or 9. My home is probably not as clean as Joanne's. But I am not Joanne. Everyone is different in what they can handle. So, there is no way I could do what Joanne is doing and be off meds. ;)

 

Lakota

 

That is a good description of how things go here. :)

[Joanne]

An insightful post, especially this comment.

 

I am also reminded of my favorite psychology professor in college. He repeatedly cautioned us in the first semester of class not to think that by taking his class we were now qualified to diagnose our friends and family.:001_smile:

 

Aw, come on now. That's not fair. I've had strong and voiced opinions for all the years I've posted. :) A thread like this, with the same content and tone is completely consistent.

[Hillary in KS]

Aw, come on now. That's not fair. I've had strong and voiced opinions for all the years I've posted. :) A thread like this, with the same content and tone is completely consistent.

 

:lol:

 

That is true. Your OP is very consistent with your other posts. :)

[coralloyd]

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Clearly it emerges from my life experience. It's a radical departure from what I used to believe and also what I have posted on message boards many years ago.

 

I believe every adult should either have or be aquiring a skill and/or education that can be used for income. My own children are expected to either go to college, in the armed forces, have market needed vocational training or have an exceptional artistic or sports talent that can generate income.

 

I honesty think that many Americans have idealized "family" and made an idol out of the concept. I do not believe that mothering is supposed to be a full time focus. I do believe that the younger the children, the more maternal time, energy and focus is needed, but I do not believe "mothering" and homemaking is supposed to be a life long focus. I also think this accounts for at least part of the high percentage of depression (diagnosed and otherwise) in at home moms.

 

I believe we've become child-centered and it's to the detriment of everyone: mothers, fathers and children. Businesses geared to children, marketed to families are a rather dubious luxury item (kids' cooking centers, birthday party places, etc) The over-abundance of classes, sports, expectations of involvement, while they might enrich a child's life, serve as a collective group to make children the out of persepctive focus of time, energy, money, etc.

 

I believe that mothers need to be, do and offer something "more". There are an unlimited amount of possibilities, needs, jobs, volunteer situations, ministries.

 

Teach an adult to read

organize a program getting professional clothing to people in half way houses

Have a ministry to meet the needs of the older generation

Visit nursing homes

Give classes on painting, art history, diabetes, car repair

Volunteer at a thrift shop

Volunteer at a food pantry...........

 

There is time to do many things: I write this from a decently clean home, 3 children testing at grade level, having a 3/4 time job and attending school full time.

 

 

Joann, I understand that you are coming from your life experiences. However, just as others have mentioned, your life is not everyones.

 

Also to me relationships are the most important things in life. For instance the things you listed under "more"; I would not do for my own fulfillment. I do these things to build relationships with others, & share the love of Jesus with them. I do these things, not to offer something more, but as an outward expression of who Jesus is molding me to be. Yes, my children watch and see the kind of person I am, and hopefully I am someone they can emulate. I only do these things if my relationships with my dc and my dh are strong and growing. I have a God given reponsibility to them first. It takes a lot of time to build strong family bonds.

 

You said in your last line, "There is time to do many things: I write this from a decently clean home, 3 children testing at grade level, having a 3/4 time job and attending school full time." I don't know exactly how you meant this. It seem like it is your way of saying " I have time to do these things, and my house is still in order." However, I am having a hard time seeing the relationship in this statement, and the rest of your post. What you stated are not signs of a house in order, imo. I am not saying you aren't doing things to build relationship. I am just concerned by the lack of it in your post.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Somehow others have read into the OP much more than I did! I simply read an opinion stated in blanket "Joanne fashion". (Joanne's been a long time poster and to recognize her style is not a cut or a slam against her at all). She stated a belief that men and women should be able to generate an income. There are many threads that have touched on this in the past. She also stated a belief that the Western world (I'm reading into this a bit) has a focus that is kid-centric. Nothing that rocks the world there. Then she encouraged others to find the kind of fulfillment she's found outside the home. I didn't see it as a mandate that I had to follow! (Though I do recognize that I've found fulfillment too as my kids have gotten older and my horizons have broadened a bit.) I saw this as just an opinion couched in the language of an opinion piece - short, a bit one-sided but meant "for the greater good".

[Joanne]

You said in your last line, "There is time to do many things: I write this from a decently clean home, 3 children testing at grade level, having a 3/4 time job and attending school full time." I don't know exactly how you meant this. It seem like it is your way of saying " I have time to do these things, and my house is still in order." However, I am having a hard time seeing the relationship in this statement, and the rest of your post. What you stated are not signs of a house in order, imo. I am not saying you aren't doing things to build relationship. I am just concerned by the lack of it in your post.

 

That is an interesting and valid observation. I will think about that.

[Guest Cindie2dds]

There is a really big lemon orchard in the garden of life, and plenty to go around. Even someone whose only desire is to be a parent can suddenly find themselves the only source of income for their family. One should be prepared to deal with that. Limiting educational opportunities earlier in life will hamper those people from the start. They will be reduced to either living off the public system, living off a private system (like their church or a charity org), or working minimum wage jobs (which I am not maligning, but which are notoriously inadequate to support a family).

 

I agree wholeheartedly, Audrey! I get asked constantly when I'm going to quit my job since I'm home schooling now. Why should I? I enjoy it, look forward to it, and one never knows when a lemon orchard will decide to relocate in your carefully manicured garden! ;)

[Joanne]

Somehow others have read into the OP much more than I did! I simply read an opinion stated in blanket "Joanne fashion". (Joanne's been a long time poster and to recognize her style is not a cut or a slam against her at all). She stated a belief that men and women should be able to generate an income. There are many threads that have touched on this in the past. She also stated a belief that the Western world (I'm reading into this a bit) has a focus that is kid-centric. Nothing that rocks the world there. Then she encouraged others to find the kind of fulfillment she's found outside the home. I didn't see it as a mandate that I had to follow! (Though I do recognize that I've found fulfillment too as my kids have gotten older and my horizons have broadened a bit.) I saw this as just an opinion couched in the language of an opinion piece - short, a bit one-sided but meant "for the greater good".

 

Thank you! I was kind of :confused::001_huh: at the assumption of my intent and the progressive tags. It seemed to me that my post was on topic (mixed, maybe, but on topic) to a lot of current conversations.

 

I also didn't limit "fulfillment" to outside the home, but intented it to suggest something beyond mothering. :)

 

I appreciate your perspective and assumption of positive intent. I guess, however, something about my tone and style does need to be looked at. I thought earlier today that the post would have been better in a blog entry. Of course, I don't keep blogs anymore as they become fodder for a lawsuit. :lol:

[jazzyfizzle]

:iagree:

I *had* immensely employable skills. They cost me my arm, and a pain free life, and the Me I used to be.

 

I realized, during a psych appt yesterday, that the only thing left for me is to be the best mother and wife I can be. No employer would ever hire me again. I'll never be working outside the house. I couldn't guarantee I'd show up for work for any given shift, nor complete the shift.

 

So...I'm a Mom. And a Wife. And those are life long commitments.

 

My best hope and dream is that we're allowed to adopt in the future. And I can raise my kids now, and hopefully those to join our family in the future to be loving, kind, empathetic, generous, hardworking adults with a love for God and Christ. Its whats left of me that I can do.

 

 

 

 

 

Imp, I have lived this very scenario. I promise, you can get through the other side. Your body will still have failed you, but you can still be you.

 

You are strong, I can see it in your posts, even if you can't feel it now.

 

Oh I how I remember living it. I could never explain it to anyone.

I saw a plaque in a store once, while I was in the middle of this place you are.

It said... If you are going through h*ll, just keep going

-Winston Churchill

 

Eventually you come out on the other side of whatever landscape you are navigating.

There will be more for you, it will just have changed, it will be different than what you originally imagined. I can see it now that I am past that point of divide in the woods.

 

:grouphug:

Edited January 20, 2010 by jazzyfizzle

[mirth]

Of course, I don't keep blogs anymore as they become fodder for a lawsuit. :lol:

 

Really? Why?

[Remudamom]

:lol:

 

That is true. Your OP is very consistent with your other posts. :)

 

:smilielol5:

[Joanne]

Really? Why?

 

My xh harvested my blogs and parenting website for the custody battle.

[PineFarmMom]

Also to me relationships are the most important things in life. For instance the things you listed under "more"; I would not do for my own fulfillment. I do these things to build relationships with others, & share the love of Jesus with them. I do these things, not to offer something more, but as an outward expression of who Jesus is molding me to be. Yes, my children watch and see the kind of person I am, and hopefully I am someone they can emulate. I only do these things if my relationships with my dc and my dh are strong and growing. I have a God given reponsibility to them first. It takes a lot of time to build strong family bonds.

 

 

GREAT POST!!! I'm convinced that the only things that will go into eternity are people and God's Word! I often don't live as if that were true, but when I do live that way, the relationships all line out and my purposes resemble what you are saying. My focus on $$ or lack thereof, or how I attempted to build my own self-worth will ultimately prove to be just greed & selfishness if Christ is not center.

[Denisemomof4]

An insightful post, especially this comment.

 

I am also reminded of my favorite psychology professor in college. He repeatedly cautioned us in the first semester of class not to think that by taking his class we were now qualified to diagnose our friends and family.:001_smile:

 

I have read this thread and wanted to stay out of this, only because my thoughts are all over the map.

 

BUT, I do have to respond to this. I, personally, have appreciated Joanne's wise input in my own posts here about trying issues. She has a huge heart and tries to help in the best way she can. She is very outspoken, and I admire that side of her, and also admire that she had the courage to start this thread, regardless of how I feel about it. I did know that some would have trouble with it.

 

I don't think Joanne has ever come off as an obnoxious Know-It-All but I do see her giving thoughtful input only for the benefit of the person seeking advice. I have appreciated it.

 

For the record, I am passionate about my role as wife and mother and couldn't do the job I do here with an outside job. It's out of the question. BUT, I do make sure I have plenty of fun time to focus just on ME, whether it be a class, a weekend away, time with friends, time with my animals, you name it. I've grown to realize how important that is, and blessed to have children who share some of my passions and enjoy them along with me. My husband is a rare gem and words can't do him justice.

[Joanne]

I have read this thread and wanted to stay out of this, only because my thoughts are all over the map.

 

BUT, I do have to respond to this. I, personally, have appreciated Joanne's wise input in my own posts here about trying issues. She has a huge heart and tries to help in the best way she can. She is very outspoken, and I admire that side of her, and also admire that she had the courage to start this thread, regardless of how I feel about it. I did know that some would have trouble with it.

 

I don't think Joanne has ever come off as an obnoxious Know-It-All but I do see her giving thoughtful input only for the benefit of the person seeking advice. I have appreciated it.

 

For the record, I am passionate about my role as wife and mother and couldn't do the job I do here with an outside job. It's out of the question. BUT, I do make sure I have plenty of fun time to focus just on ME, whether it be a class, a weekend away, time with friends, time with my animals, you name it. I've grown to realize how important that is, and blessed to have children who share some of my passions and enjoy them along with me. My husband is a rare gem and words can't do him justice.

 

 

What a kind post. I appreciate the generous perspective on my style and history. I'm not sure I deserve it.

 

You know, I really appreciate your last paragraph. It shows eloquently the broad scope of interest and time I was trying to post about. My OP was not intended to speak in support of WOH specifically. I have to say that I wish I could quit this job (I am there now). It helps my family financially and I am grateful for it. I've met some terrific people and have developed over the 18 months I've been here some incredible friendships. It has enriched my life, but I'd drop it in a heartbeat.

 

My schooling I would not give up - but I take a kid with me nearly every time so I cherish school for the learning, the development of a career AND for the one on one kid time.

[Denisemomof4]

What a kind post. I appreciate the generous perspective on my style and history. I'm not sure I deserve it.

 

:thumbdown::smash::smash::smash:

[Joanne]

:thumbdown::smash::smash::smash:

 

Ouch. That smilie's hammer hurts. ;) No, really, listen. If that many people percieve my tone, voice and style in the way some people have mentioned in the thread and as shown in the tags, I have some thinking to do.

[Lovedtodeath]

This is our situation as well. My husband has said many times that me doing what I do at home enables him to be able to do what he does at work. If I were working too, or if he were a single parent, he wouldn't be able to do what he does now in the same way. So my being at home contributes to the income he's able to earn.

Okay. I should not have read this thread!

 

So do I have no value then, since I am sick 99% of the time, spend too much on groceries and a quarter of our income on medical bills and need help to get the basic housework done? I stress my DH out so much that he ends up yelling at me for breaking my foot causing him more work at home and medical bills?

 

 

:(:crying:

[Karenciavo]

:lol:

 

That is true. Your OP is very consistent with your other posts. :)

 

:iagree:

[Joanne]

Okay. I should not have read this thread!

 

So do I have no value then, since I am sick 99% of the time, spend too much on groceries and a quarter of our income on medical bills and need help to get the basic housework done? I stress my DH out so much that he ends up yelling at me for breaking my foot causing him more work at home and medical bills?

 

 

:(:crying:

 

Carmen,

 

Your body is sick. You are not *able* to function in the same way as able bodied people. It's not kind or grace-offering to hold yourself to the same standards of many of the women here.

 

OTOH, you've developed a curriculum that I've looked at several times, am very impressed with and could not begin to match. The amount of work, time and research it must have taken is amazing.

[Lovedtodeath]

Carmen,

 

Your body is sick. You are not *able* to function in the same way as able bodied people. It's not kind or grace-offering to hold yourself to the same standards of many of the women here.

 

OTOH, you've developed a curriculum that I've looked at several times, am very impressed with and could not begin to match. The amount of work, time and research it must have taken is amazing.

Aw, Joanne. :grouphug: I have to do something while being unable to do nothing but sit. ;) Unfortunately, using the computer is sometimes difficult too. :nopity:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Okay. I should not have read this thread!

 

So do I have no value then, since I am sick 99% of the time, spend too much on groceries and a quarter of our income on medical bills and need help to get the basic housework done? I stress my DH out so much that he ends up yelling at me for breaking my foot causing him more work at home and medical bills?

 

 

:(:crying:

 

Carmen, I'm sure your worth to your family is immeasurable - not because of what you do but because of who you are. Your dh loves you. Your children love you. Yes, being chronically ill can be stressful not only for us but for our family - I'm living that reality as well. Stress and worry can cause family members to be less than sympathetic at times. :grouphug:

 

Please don't let a thread that is couched in generalities that don't always fit the specifics of our lives get you down. It is really hard when I find that I can't do what "most women" do. It can get me very down. But this is my reality (and my families) and this is what we work with.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Jean in Newcastle

[5kidsforME]

Okay. I should not have read this thread!

 

So do I have no value then, since I am sick 99% of the time, spend too much on groceries and a quarter of our income on medical bills and need help to get the basic housework done? I stress my DH out so much that he ends up yelling at me for breaking my foot causing him more work at home and medical bills?

 

 

:(:crying:

 

Wow Carmen, I think you are really reaching on this one.

[Denisemomof4]

Okay. I should not have read this thread!

 

So do I have no value then, since I am sick 99% of the time, spend too much on groceries and a quarter of our income on medical bills and need help to get the basic housework done? I stress my DH out so much that he ends up yelling at me for breaking my foot causing him more work at home and medical bills?

 

 

:(:crying:

 

:ohmy::crying::crying:

 

people are worthless when they become sick??? discards?

 

Your family loves you. Your dh likely feels anxious about things and his stress causes him to speak in ways I'm sure he regrets. Stress does that.

 

Please don't look at yourself this way. I just won't allow it! If I :smash: I will cause you more pain. Please don't make me do it. ;)

[lovemyboys]

Well said.

 

There is no way I'd tell a mother of infants and toddlers that she's not doing enough, it needs to be more. I get tired of society downplaying the role of the mother in children's lives. Everyone has a different situation, different needs, different temperaments. I think even if a woman has grown children and desires to stay home, why is that wrong? It's her life, she can choose what she wants to do, and should be able to without someone telling her she's not doing enough. I think depression often stems from other people's expectations and the perceived failure of reaching those expectations. I think that if a woman values her family and has the desire to be a mother and home maker, it should be encouraged and supported. Ministering to your family ≠ child worship.

 

That said, I do believe children should be educated to the end of being able to support themselves, girls and boys alike. The future can't be predicted, and even if my dd marries after college and becomes a home maker and mother, that's no guarantee she'll never have to seek outside work to support the family if there's a crisis.

 

Also very well said.

 

In my experience, many of the parents who really take the kid-focus to the extreme have been working parents. They can and do afford a lot of the over-the-top activities, camps, parties and things.

 

Many of the homeschoolers we know do many volunteer and service related things, either independently or in groups.

 

But you've said it better than I could, the reasons people homeschool are as diverse as the people themselves. I would never presume to tell them what they should be doing. And would definitely not say that what they were doing wasn't what was right for them, their children or their future.

 

One size just doesn't fit all.

[lovemyboys]

Oh, but can't it please be for me for awhile? I started working for my Dad when I was 8. I got a job outside the family when I was 14. I've never had more than 1 week off at a time until I was 40 and decided to stay home with my older. Can't I just stay home now and raise my kids? :)

 

I'd say you've earned it!

 

Enjoy them when they're these wonderful young ages!!! :001_smile:

 

 

A lot of this discussion also has to do with when the children arrive in a particular family. If you worked and travelled and had kids later, you may not need to be looking for outside work or fulfillment. Whereas, if you had kids young, you may be looking forward to some time with a career later. Or maybe you're juggling both. Lots of variables to consider.

 

 

Even though it sounded like OP's advice for all, I think it's really more of her own personal epiphany. Regrets, life lessons. Perhaps could've been worded more in that vein.

[sunshine]

My xh harvested my blogs and parenting website for the custody battle.

 

Hmm, I know a hit man..............jk kinda!;)

[sunshine]

Okay. I should not have read this thread!

 

So do I have no value then, since I am sick 99% of the time, spend too much on groceries and a quarter of our income on medical bills and need help to get the basic housework done? I stress my DH out so much that he ends up yelling at me for breaking my foot causing him more work at home and medical bills?

 

 

:(:crying:

 

You are worth a great deal to me!!:grouphug:

[swimmermom3]

When I was in graduate school, I took a business course entitled, "The Politics of Power." The professor was one of the most demanding and outstanding instructors I have ever encountered. He posed a question to our class composed of predominately late 20s to early 30s aged students, "What will you do at the end of your long, successful career as a CEO?"

 

Of course the number one answer in a predominately male class was, "Play golf!" Chuckle, chuckle. The prof wasn't laughing. He told us that if our retirement plans included nothing more than a bit of light entertainment then he could guarantee us broken marriages, broken bodies, and broken lives. All heck broke lose in that class. Most of us were still trying to wrap our minds around getting those golden handcuffs in the first place.

 

The professor's point was that few who are moving at 100 mph can successfully transition to moving at 5mph. Have a plan for "retirement." Plan to do something that has meaning for you. For example, my dh is a customs broker. He deals with the logistics and legalities of moving goods internationally. When he retires, he would like to take that knowledge and move it into the arena of international aid. It's his plan to give back and remain fully engaged. I think it sounds stressful after watching the Haiti crisis but it's all about doing something of value for him. He's got the kids excited enough about it that we have ongoing dinner conversations about pilot's licenses, fluency in multiple languages, and medical careers. Swimmer Dude prefers to build a technological empire and finance the rest of us peons in our efforts.

 

Perhaps I am reading between the lines in Joanne's op. This isn't about SAHMs versus working moms. I view it as a reminder that my children won't be children forever. I will fare much better if I have a plan, even a rough sketch of what I would like to do. Slowly I will need to add a few tools, skills, relationships that move me toward that goal. A good friend who is a counselor and life coach says that one of the biggest issues she sees with women whose children are grown or nearly grown is one of trying to find value in their lives. This tends to happen with women who have been solely focused on their children. This is only my personal translation and experience and not a comment on what anyone else is doing.

[Joanne]

Hmm, I know a hit man..............jk kinda!;)

 

;) In the deposition, his attorney hammered :smash: me on a blog entry I wrote years ago. Like, when I was married to his client. (He was a guest at the wedding :lol:). It was, ironically enough, an entry about when my xh and I left a church due to an emphasis on "children's church". The blog entry was titled "Superfluparents" and talked about our culture's progressive tendency to put space between parents and children. My xh, at the time of the event and the entry was completely, totally in agreement and indeed was the leader in us leaving that church.

 

It's funny on several levels now.

[Jenn in Mo]

..... I do not believe "mothering" and homemaking is supposed to be a life long focus. I also think this accounts for at least part of the high percentage of depression (diagnosed and otherwise) in at home moms.

 

 

While I agree with a good portion of what you said, I actually think a large portion of depression in at-home moms stems from being labelled as not doing enough. Moms are told in many different ways that they are JUST moms and are inadequate if this is "all" they do. I think it takes something beautiful and makes a mom feel like her life is meaningless.

 

When depression has hit me in the past, it centered around me feeling like a worthless failure. And baby blues. The combination was ugly. It would have been nice to hear that my choice was noble and good. It would have been nice to hear that some days it's okay to just get by. It would not have been nice to hear that I wasn't doing enough.

 

But I only read the first page, so I probably shouldn't have jumped in yet.

[Lovedtodeath]

:lol: Great observation! Homeschooling doesn't develop marketable skills? I dare say full-time private tutoring for other people's children would be respected as valuable work and that tutor wouldn't be pushed to find *other* hobbies, skill, or work to increase future earning potential.

Good luck having anyone believe that you are a good tutor and worth paying if you have no expensive piece of paper to prove it.

 

:iagree:

 

I have a temperament that tends to explode when I do too many outside things. And, sadly, I explode upon my children. So, as paradoxical as it may sound, giving too much of my time and talents to my church has had the effect of causing my children to dislike church and feel less spiritual...because I get stretched too thin and complain, run late,forget things, criticize otherwise ignorable behavior, etc.

 

So I am a better Mom when I spend most of my time homeschooling them, cooking and cleaning when I can, and only doing an occasional outside project. We do once-a-week homeshool co-op (including community service projects)and oldest has Tae Kwon Do. I am a teacher for the kids in church. But when I begin saying yes to everyone's great ideas of what "we" ought to do, I flip out. I only have 3 kids, not 6 or 9. My home is probably not as clean as Joanne's. But I am not Joanne. Everyone is different in what they can handle. So, there is no way I could do what Joanne is doing and be off meds. ;)

 

Lakota

Me too. You wanna be bffs? We will never see each other... that is too much to do. :grouphug: :lol:

[Lovedtodeath]

I honesty think that many Americans have idealized "family" and made an idol out of the concept. I do not believe that mothering is supposed to be a full time focus. I do believe that the younger the children, the more maternal time, energy and focus is needed, but I do not believe "mothering" and homemaking is supposed to be a life long focus. I also think this accounts for at least part of the high percentage of depression (diagnosed and otherwise) in at home moms.

 

I believe that mothers need to be, do and offer something "more". There are an unlimited amount of possibilities, needs, jobs, volunteer situations, ministries.

 

There is time to do many things: I write this from a decently clean home, 3 children testing at grade level, having a 3/4 time job and attending school full time.

It is true that we need some outside interests. I do know moms who have lost themselves in their role as mothers. I even know wives without children who have lost themselves in their role as wife. The main reason I keep writing even though it is difficult is that it gives me something. You know what is funny? DH is happier with me now that I am playing video games again. :tongue_smilie:

 

I totally disagree that there is time to do many things. Some of us do not have the energy for that. Also, littles take a lot of time.

 

Thank you. And the OP doesn't come close to devaluing SAHMing or asserting WOH is desirable.

I got that.

 

Actually, I haven't forgotten at all and the OP talks about the intense mom needs of littles.

Yep!

 

Sorry you feel that way. I was simply sharing a perspective and opinion I felt was on topic for many of the decisions board members make here.

 

You tend to be as bossy as I am; we just typically boss from opposite sides.

:iagree:

 

While I agree with a good portion of what you said, I actually think a large portion of depression in at-home moms stems from being labelled as not doing enough. Moms are told in many different ways that they are JUST moms and are inadequate if this is "all" they do. I think it takes something beautiful and makes a mom feel like her life is meaningless.

 

When depression has hit me in the past, it centered around me feeling like a worthless failure. And baby blues. The combination was ugly. It would have been nice to hear that my choice was noble and good. It would have been nice to hear that some days it's okay to just get by. It would not have been nice to hear that I wasn't doing enough.

 

But I only read the first page, so I probably shouldn't have jumped in yet.

:iagree:ITA with everything!!!

[LibraryLover]

I'd say you've earned it!

 

Enjoy them when they're these wonderful young ages!!! :001_smile:

 

 

A lot of this discussion also has to do with when the children arrive in a particular family. If you worked and travelled and had kids later, you may not need to be looking for outside work or fulfillment. Whereas, if you had kids young, you may be looking forward to some time with a career later. Or maybe you're juggling both. Lots of variables to consider.

 

 

Even though it sounded like OP's advice for all, I think it's really more of her own personal epiphany. Regrets, life lessons. Perhaps could been worded more in that vein.

 

Yes.

 

I understand that Joanne is in a place none of us ever want to be and where most never think they will ever be. But there are no guarantees. Women get screwed in child care and alimony every single day. She knows her own truth and situation.

 

Yet. I liked this this post. Some of us have worked most of our lives and now just want to take care of our kids. Some of us have partners with jobs that go above and beyond. We can think this unfair, but not having a job when one needs one is also unfair. It's not so easy to strike the most perfect balance. For those who have that, it's wonderful.

 

I started working well before age 16 as well. Mostly because I had so much energy. I worked at the library, I babysat, I waitressed. I went to college, lived in a dorm and had two jobs. I got married, dh and I worked and went to graduate school. Dh was a college TA in graduate school. We didn't have a baby until our late 20's. I worked to Friday and he was born Sunday. Then I quit for a bit, then I worked with him in my arms. then I worked while his father took care of him when he wasn't at work. I had two part time jobs when my middle two were toddlers, and I mostly brought them to work with me (although my sister , my mother and dh took care of them sometimes). I volunteered for LLL for years. I worked through my last pregnancy to Friday, and the baby was born the next Tuesday (Monday was a holiday or I would have been there that day as well).

 

By the time I had four kids and a dh who travelled and made good money it made absolutely no sense to continue. I haven't held a full time paid job in 10 years. (But I do plenty in my field, sometimes unpaid, plus I have learned new skills in the last 10 years). Nobody needs to tell me to get a job now. It's the last thing I have time for. Unless he takes the kids in the divorce. Then I have time. ;)

 

I have earned whatever alimony I might have coming to me if my dh ever thought to divorce. If he wants the kids to live with him, he can have them live with him. They are older and he loves them. He's an excellent father. He'd put up with their schedule (even if not homeschooled) for a few days, and then they would back with me most of the time. Even if he would stop loving me, he will not stop loving them. His job requires travel. When he is home, he's home. But when he travels, he's in Timbuktu.

 

At his age, I don't think that all of a sudden he's going to turn into a*shole and make his kids suffer for his ego. I suppose it could happen, but I know where to go for a ruthless lawyer. And he'll have to pay those expenses, too.

 

I know it's different for women in their 20's with a passel of little kids, no decent child care, and an incomplete paper education. So, I agree with the OP that women, even if they choose to stay home with their kids a bit, have some marketable skill. Some men won't pay child support, and some women aren't granted alimony for any length of time, or don't get child support because their dhs quit their jobs or run away. But nobody has babies thinking their dh will turn into a jerk a couple of years down the road.

 

I know a woman who was a SAHM for 4 years, and had an awesome career before kids, but quit to stay home with them. She is now divorced (married 6 years) and her dh pays her over 200k a year in alimony and child support. She also got the house. He lives on less than that. She had a good lawyer, and was a dedicated mother. He wasn't an as$ when it came to his kids, but he also had a good lawyer who tried mightily to reduce that 200K. She is going to collect this money for the next 10 years (she is now also working part time as the children are all in school). After the alimony ends in 10 years, she will still get child support. And she will have her job, and probably a new dh who adores her.

 

Divorce does suck and cruel men are common. It stinks.

 

There. A 'positive' divorce story. ;)

Edited January 20, 2010 by LibraryLover

[katemary63]

Um....where are these families that set everything aside to make thier kids an all consuming focus? I don't see that. I see kids being forgotten, abused, yelled at, latch keyed and as another person said, marginalized. I see this everywhere in overflowing abundance, even in church. Are we thinking that too many parents are too good to their kids? Where? Who? As far as I can see, most adults are selfish and put thier own needs above those of their children. Mine did. My sister did. Her daughter is. My DH's did. His sister did. Her son is. And our families wouldn't make the worst of the worst list by any means. It makes me sick. My kids come first.

 

My dad once said to me, when I told him I was quiting college to stay home with my new baby, "When it's all said and done, God will ask you, 'So you raised a family...what else did you do for me?'" I promptly told him that was bullcrap. What God may say to me was, "So you cured cancer....but....what about your family?" God doesn't need ME to cure cancer or do anything else for that matter. He's God. He'll get it done. But the one thing He does "need" me to do, is take care of the babies He gave me. So focus on them I will, and Not on my self or anything else. As long as I'm doing my "job" I'm not going to worry about what else I should be doing or shouldn't. God may use me for many other things during my life time, but being my kids' mom will certainly be the most important thing I ever do and I'm not going to feel guilty for thinking that.

[Lovedtodeath]

While I agree with a good portion of what you said, I actually think a large portion of depression in at-home moms stems from being labelled as not doing enough. Moms are told in many different ways that they are JUST moms and are inadequate if this is "all" they do. I think it takes something beautiful and makes a mom feel like her life is meaningless.

 

When depression has hit me in the past, it centered around me feeling like a worthless failure. And baby blues. The combination was ugly. It would have been nice to hear that my choice was noble and good. It would have been nice to hear that some days it's okay to just get by. It would not have been nice to hear that I wasn't doing enough.

 

But I only read the first page, so I probably shouldn't have jumped in yet.

Yeah, while I am drowning in the responsibility of feeding and clothing myself and my family, tell me that I would be less depressed if I had outside inerests huh?

[6packofun]

I think depression often stems from other people's expectations and the perceived failure of reaching those expectations. I think that if a woman values her family and has the desire to be a mother and home maker, it should be encouraged and supported. Ministering to your family ≠ child worship.

 

 

That was beautiful. lol I wholeheartedly agree!

[Joanne]

Um....where are these families that set everything aside to make thier kids an all consuming focus? I don't see that. I see kids being forgotten, abused, yelled at, latch keyed and as another person said, marginalized. I see this everywhere in overflowing abundance, even in church. Are we thinking that too many parents are too good to their kids? Where? Who? As far as I can see, most adults are selfish and put thier own needs above those of their children. Mine did. My sister did. Her daughter is. My DH's did. His sister did. Her son is. And our families wouldn't make the worst of the worst list by any means. It makes me sick. My kids come first.

 

t.

 

My personal observation and experience in a suburb of Houston isn't like the above paragraph at all. While I don't see an over-focus across the board, I certainly see average or adequate parenting as the norm. This is my observation at of a couple of dozen daycare clients, 2 churches, at baseball organizations, at 2 different elementary schools and also the homeschooling families I know.

[Lovedtodeath]

Um....where are these families that set everything aside to make thier kids an all consuming focus? I don't see that. I see kids being forgotten, abused, yelled at, latch keyed and as another person said, marginalized. I see this everywhere in overflowing abundance, even in church. Are we thinking that too many parents are too good to their kids? Where? Who? As far as I can see, most adults are selfish and put thier own needs above those of their children. Mine did. My sister did. Her daughter is. My DH's did. His sister did. Her son is. And our families wouldn't make the worst of the worst list by any means. It makes me sick.

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

My dad once said to me, when I told him I was quiting college to stay home with my new baby, "When it's all said and done, God will ask you, 'So you raised a family...what else did you do for me?'" I promptly told him that was bullcrap. What God may say to me was, "So you cured cancer....but....what about your family?" God doesn't need ME to cure cancer or do anything else for that matter. He's God. He'll get it done. But the one thing He does "need" me to do, is take care of the babies He gave me. So focus on them I will, and Not on my self or anything else. As long as I'm doing my "job" I'm not going to worry about what else I should be doing or shouldn't. God may use me for many other things during my life time, but being my kids' mom will certainly be the most important thing I ever do and I'm not going to feel guilty for thinking that.

Thank you!

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Y'know, I've had my own share of big feelings over this thread and I'm not above posting a passive aggressive tag now and then, but I could really do without the "feminazi" tag down there.

 

I am not a fan of anyone calling anyone else a Nazi, unless the target really is a Nazi. Don't you know what was done by Nazis? Don't you know that the children and grandchildren of the innocent victims still have wounds in their hearts today? It is not a light word.

 

Whoever tagged that, why not just say "feminist rubbish?" Why do you want to insinuate that an opinion which reminds you of your understanding (or perception) of feminism is somehow connected with the actions or beliefs of the Nazi party?

[LibraryLover]

Y'know, I've had my own share of big feelings over this thread and I'm not above posting a passive aggressive tag now and then, but I could really do without the "feminazi" tag down there.

 

I am not a fan of anyone calling anyone else a Nazi, unless the target really is a Nazi. Don't you know what was done by Nazis? Don't you know that the children and grandchildren of the innocent victims still have wounds in their hearts today? It is not a light word.

 

Whoever tagged that, why not just say "feminist rubbish?" Why do you want to insinuate that an opinion which reminds you of your understanding (or perception) of feminism is somehow connected with the actions or beliefs of the Nazi party?

 

 

As soon as the mods catch up, those tags will disappear, and those who wrote them will get banned for a day.

 

Some of those tags are pretty evil I must say. Maybe it should be two days.

[Night Elf]

You said in your last line, "There is time to do many things: I write this from a decently clean home, 3 children testing at grade level, having a 3/4 time job and attending school full time." I don't know exactly how you meant this. It seem like it is your way of saying " I have time to do these things, and my house is still in order." However, I am having a hard time seeing the relationship in this statement, and the rest of your post. What you stated are not signs of a house in order, imo. I am not saying you aren't doing things to build relationship. I am just concerned by the lack of it in your post.

 

I suppose that statement was the breaking point for me. Had Joann made that statement about herself as a 'Yay Me! I've been working hard to get to this point' kind of thing, lots of us would have commented positively and likely say something about wishing we had a similar situation. However, some of us interpreted that statement as an admonishment for being less or doing less. I believe marketable skills are subjective. I went into the job market knowing how to type and file and had no problem finding a job. But I did work with people who had college degrees who thought they were better than me. Yet, despite their higher salaries, they complained that they needed more money for the things that proved their status. I was fine with my small apartment, used car, brown bag lunch, and Target clothing. :)

 

Oh, and my time at home spent taking care of children and my house got me a job in a daycare center last year. Unfortunately, a difference of opinion in working with children and my own personal medical issues forced me to quit. I'm still bummed that I no longer work there. I do believe I can find another daycare position when I'm ready though. It may not be the same as being a lawyer, doctor, or therapist, but I sure enjoy the h*ll out of that profession.

[laughing lioness]

I've been somewhat confused since the beginning of this thread due to the lack of definitions. "Child centered" conjures up lots of different images for all of us.

For instance, I consider our home to be family centered. We are focused on creating a beautiful family culture. Those who disagree with our lifestyle (mil) because it's so "abnormal" call us child-centered, and insist that are children are being damaged by their family life. The child is not the center (actually, in our home, the family isn't either, but that's off-topic). The child is attended to, nurtured, loved (which includes discipline because we are discipling our kids).

We know several families with parents have more money than time. They buy thier kids everything; toys, experiences, clothes. In fact, they buy them off. The kids are emotionally neglected, demanding and hungry for real, decent parenting. Many would call that child centered (cause the kids get the goodies). I call that self centered on the part of the parent.

 

There are many days where I we have really delved into academia, with all of it's rigor- as a result my house is trashed. Other days, my house is spotless and we've done no schooling. I seem to be able to clean or school, but rarely both on the same day.

I also work hard to generate resources for my family. I've done this by earning income, shopping frugally, etc, etc, etc, etc. Other days I've really struggled and have spent copious amounts of time playing spider solitaire (True Confessions here).

 

My dh and I have seen adequate and horrible parenting among the wealthy, poor and middle class, educated, uneducated, working, stay at home. Rarely have we seen GOOD parenting. I believe that is because most folks don't have a vision for parenting. They are just getting by. One of the reasons I appreciate this board so much is because it is full of decent, hardworking, GOOD parents, who have a vision beyond themselves. People I would never cross paths with irl, who have wisdom and insight that I need. My thanks to all of you here. You have enriched my life and my ability to parent, home educate and go beyond where I'd be without you.

 

Last thought. None of us know what tomorow will bring. This past fall a devoted, stay at home wife and homeschooling mom we know had a total psychotic break, no warning, no prior mental illness. Her dh was beside himself. They had no insurance, the cost of the hosptial was $1000 a day and she was there for 2 weeks. We ourselves have had heartbreaking illnesses that have cost us tons of money we didn't have, bouts of unemployment, etc. My dh and I have both been stressed and driven each other nuts with our stress. I don't fault people who leave a family under dire circumstances cause I've felt desperate enough myself at times to do the same. I do grieve. Life is hard. Life is very hard. And life can be heartbreakingly hard. For right now, I am grateful for the health of my family and the health of my marriage. Not everybody has that.

Edited January 20, 2010 by laughing lioness