Don't get on the bus!!

[LauraGB]

as for the FDA...

I think they are almost useless.

 

labels do not fight obesity.

not eating it regardless of the label and going for a walk fights obesity.

the problem isn't labels.

No kidding. If the consumer doesn't have time or is too lazy to turn the product around, the lable itself is hardly going to solve that consumer's problem.

 

if it was, the problem could be solves easily by saying:

blue labels for unprocessed, healthy foods (fresh sweet potatos)

yellow labels for items that aren't unprocessed, but aren't bad for you (canned/frozen but not sweetened/treated with corn syrup or dye or whatever sweet potatos)

red labels for junk you can eat but don't really get any or only pure puck marginal health benefit from (potato chips)

 

 

I like your idea. Red means danger - turn that thing around and read the label! Maybe you should apply for the head FDA job and save everyone a lot of headaches ;).

[Devotional Soul]

One thing to consider is that if many people hop on the flu vax bus, the less chances there are of forced mandatory vaccination.

 

The FEMA trains are the modern day buses to avoid besides the vax and tamiflu.

[Murphy101]

One thing to consider is that if many people hop on the flu vax bus, the less chances there are of forced mandatory vaccination.

 

:blink:That makes about as much sense as givng up freedom so it isn't taken away.

 

Yes, obviously if one voluntarily gives up their freedoms the PTB won't have to bother with taking it away.

 

Neither bus is one I'm all that eager to encourage hoping on if one actually wants to make their own medical decisions and retain freedom.:001_huh:

[emeraldjoy]

You used some pretty stong language here.

I really am okay with that, especially if you think I am attacking you because of your decision to vaccinate and even more so if you think I am somehow nullifying (sp?) all your research and other like you. Trust me that was not my intent.

History, however, does tend to repeat itself.

My observations and ponderings what I witnessed at the vaccination clininc are the same wether everyone in the line did their research or not.

It just so happened that it took this sort of experience for me to start thinking seriously about things such as "getting on the bus". Does that make sense?

e

 

Once again :iagree: with you. ;)

 

I don't know about others but I have personally put hours upon hours of research into vaccines. Every time a new vaccine is offered I spend countless hours researching the pros and cons. It is because of those countless hours that I have personally decided to get our family vaccinated for H1N1, as well as various other vaccines. It most certainly is not because we are just "getting on the bus."

 

This kind of thinking is also certainly not limited to vaccines. This can apply to to the kinds of clothes people wear, their religions views, (as Cyndi pointed out) their job decisions, their parenting decisions, their marital decisions, their friendship decisions, and the list goes on and on.

 

Is it not obvious that this kind of thinking can be (and most likely is) extremely offensive in so many ways?

 

While this kind of thinking can apply to some it certainly does not mean that it applies to everyone. Just because someone follows a different path does NOT mean that they are ill informend or are following the herd. To imply so (as this salesman does) is simply offensive. Not only is it offensive to those that do make educated decisions on things but also to the countless numbers of people that have truly died and had their lives ripped apart because they really did "get on the bus."

 

What a horrible and offensive comparison. If some salesman ever said something like that to me I would NEVER buy anything from them, EVER!

[PineFarmMom]

You used some pretty stong language here.

It just so happened that it took this sort of experience for me to start thinking seriously about things such as "getting on the bus". Does that make sense?

e

 

I got your point. History has shown many times and in many ways that people will follow when faced with some level of discomfort and fear. Part of the reason to learn history is so we can learn how to avoid the negative parts repeating themselves. I didn't see your post as being against vaccines or people fearfully jumping on the vaccine wagon so much as people blindly being willing to let govt. lead them in a way that could turn out negative in the end. I just do not and will not ever have that much faith in our leaders. I hate that it is so and sometimes wish that I could trust them, but I don't. Those that are researching the vaccine thoroughly: that is the ONLY way I see myself or my children ever getting it is after dh & I make an informed and prayerful decision and not just because somebody said we should, even if that somebody was our doctor or a high-up political leader (I'd actually trust my doctor more).

Edited October 24, 2009 by Texas T

[Devotional Soul]

:blink:That makes about as much sense as givng up freedom so it isn't taken away.

 

Yes, obviously if one voluntarily gives up their freedoms the PTB won't have to bother with taking it away.

 

Neither bus is one I'm all that eager to encourage hoping on if one actually wants to make their own medical decisions and retain freedom.:001_huh:

 

Please let me clarify my point. I'm advising non-vaxers to not bother trying to change the minds of pro-vaxers because if everyone refuses this new flu vax, the PTB will force it on everyone. Instead of trying to convince and possibly offend, we're better off just praying for everyone to be guided and protected.

 

Speaking of history repeating itself, it's quite interesting to research the 1918 'Spanish' Flu pandemic and see what role vaccines and fear manipulation propaganda played in that.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Devotional Soul

[Tree House Academy]

In this situation, we are not "not vaccinating" because we are anti-vaccines. My older son is fully vaccinated, younger ds is vaccinated fully except for his final MMR and Varicella boosters. He was due for them a year ago and we haven't gotten them yet...not sure if we will due to the reaction he had to those shots the first time. I also have gotten the kids the annual flu vaccine for the past 5 years with no adverse effect and no flu.

 

Our reasons for not getting the H1N1 vaccine, just yet, is that we do not yet know its effectiveness. We don't know the numbers on whether or not the vaccine or the flu carries the biggest risk of death or complications. That information will not be available for some time to come, either. You can't really say that the flu itself carries more risk than the vaccine at this time. Yes, I know the demographics and such of who the illness is affecting. What I do not know, and may not know for a long time is the percentage of people who got the H1N1 and died vs the percentage of people who got the flu shot and died or had some other permanent complication. Waiting may just prove ineffective as well.

 

It also concerns me that, if we get the vaccine, will we have immunity to this virus at all if it mutates in the years to come. Mutated viruses still contain components of the original virus. It stands to reason, to me, that actual exposure to the flu can give folks a longer immunity to the virus than a vaccine can. I am not a doctor, I am just thinking about myself and my family and trying to make the most informed choice I can. Right now, I am on the fence and leaning quite a bit toward NO. However, if people start dying left and right and this becomes something much more serious than it is now even...or if it doesn't peak around Halloween and then start to taper off, then I very well may just get on that bus and do the best I know how to protect my family. When it comes to something like this, we do the best we can and then (for me, as a Christian) we just have to start accepting that this is much bigger than us and it is in God's hands.

[Mommyof4ks]

As a society we don't want the responsibility to being wrong so that we can blame someone else when bad stuff happens (like the media, the doctor, the gov't, and so on). If we follow the crowd and something bad happens, then we can sue someone and be mad at them rather than taking responsibility for our own actions. I don't agree with this mentality, but I see it with some people I know. It is the reason one friend put her dd in ps, because at least it would not be her fault if her dd did not learn to read or do math. :glare:

[emeraldjoy]

So, so true.

 

When it comes to something like this, we do the best we can and then (for me, as a Christian) we just have to start accepting that this is much bigger than us and it is in God's hands.

[mama2cntrykids]

In this situation, we are not "not vaccinating" because we are anti-vaccines. My older son is fully vaccinated, younger ds is vaccinated fully except for his final MMR and Varicella boosters. He was due for them a year ago and we haven't gotten them yet...not sure if we will due to the reaction he had to those shots the first time. I also have gotten the kids the annual flu vaccine for the past 5 years with no adverse effect and no flu.

 

Our reasons for not getting the H1N1 vaccine, just yet, is that we do not yet know its effectiveness. We don't know the numbers on whether or not the vaccine or the flu carries the biggest risk of death or complications. That information will not be available for some time to come, either. You can't really say that the flu itself carries more risk than the vaccine at this time. Yes, I know the demographics and such of who the illness is affecting. What I do not know, and may not know for a long time is the percentage of people who got the H1N1 and died vs the percentage of people who got the flu shot and died or had some other permanent complication. Waiting may just prove ineffective as well.

 

It also concerns me that, if we get the vaccine, will we have immunity to this virus at all if it mutates in the years to come. Mutated viruses still contain components of the original virus. It stands to reason, to me, that actual exposure to the flu can give folks a longer immunity to the virus than a vaccine can. I am not a doctor, I am just thinking about myself and my family and trying to make the most informed choice I can. Right now, I am on the fence and leaning quite a bit toward NO. However, if people start dying left and right and this becomes something much more serious than it is now even...or if it doesn't peak around Halloween and then start to taper off, then I very well may just get on that bus and do the best I know how to protect my family. When it comes to something like this, we do the best we can and then (for me, as a Christian) we just have to start accepting that this is much bigger than us and it is in God's hands.

 

Very good points Rebecca:iagree:

[KrissiK]

I agree with the OP's point, and I see a lot of this thread going toward picking apart the analogy, which, like most analogies aren't perfect, but are good to prove a point. The psychology of power has always fascinated me, ever since I started teaching school and realized that I was in a classroom alone with 25 children, many of whom were bigger and stronger than I was and somehow, they listened to me and did what I told them to do. That always amazed me. This flu thing- getting vaccinated is neither here nor there, but I also think the hysteria it's causing is what's scary. Fear does get people moving, and when the government can make us afraid, and then make us believe that they are the only one that can solve our problems (flu vaccines, mortgage payments, global warming, health care "crisis"), then we are in a place that we really don't want to be in. Some told me once that safety and freedom are diametrically opposed. The safer we want to be, the more freedoms we are willing to give up.

[mommyrooch]

You used some pretty stong language here.

I really am okay with that, especially if you think I am attacking you because of your decision to vaccinate and even more so if you think I am somehow nullifying (sp?) all your research and other like you. Trust me that was not my intent.

History, however, does tend to repeat itself.

My observations and ponderings what I witnessed at the vaccination clininc are the same wether everyone in the line did their research or not.

It just so happened that it took this sort of experience for me to start thinking seriously about things such as "getting on the bus". Does that make sense?

e

 

Good, my language was meant to be strong. :D Let me take a moment to clarify why that was so.

 

First of all, it had absolutely nothing to do with me or my choice on vaccination. It did however have everything to do with your bolded words above.

 

I know your OP wasn't about vaccination choices. I am aware of what your point was when posting this thread and I even agree with it on many levels. In fact, I could probably help you argue your case. ;)

 

Let's use 9-11 for example. After 9-11 there was a definite shift towards "fear" in this country. The day after 9-11 I remember people lined up for miles at gas stations in "fear" that there would be no more gas. This was crazy and absolutely driven by fear. Americans also started "fearing" terrorists as if they truly believed they would be killed by a terrorist. :001_huh: Many were more than willing to let our government take away many of our freedoms after 9-11 because they "feared" that terrorists would get them. Taking fingernail clippers from Grandma at the airport comes to mind. ;) This is also crazy and definitely driven by "fear." It is an illogical fear resulting in an illogical response to fear.

 

Do you realize that 1 in every 5 people will be diagnosed with cancer in their lifetimes? We have a MUCH greater chance of dying of cancer than we have of dying at the hands of a terrorist but people generally do not go around lining up for miles outside of hospitals in "fear" of cancer. We all have a MUCH greater chance of dying in car wrecks than of being killied by terrorists but we usually don't even think twice when we hop in the car. These types of "fear" do definitely cause many "herd" responses. Such as lining up for miles at gas stations. Very illogical responses that are driven by illogical fear.

 

This was not the point of my strong words. While I agree with your views on masses of people being driven by fear I do NOT agree with the verbage your salesman friend used. It was the words "get on the bus" that was offensive, not the idea of fear driven responses. Does this make sense?

 

Comparing these responses to "getting on the bus" is very callous IMO. To compare things like people lining up at gas stations or lining up outside of vaccine clinics because of fear to people "getting on buses" and being murdered as a result is extremely offensive and a very callous comparison. (See, I'm using that strong language again. ;))

 

I hope that now you understand where I was coming from. :001_smile: I was not commenting on your views of herded responses to fear. I even agree with you on that. I was commenting on the callous comparison your friend so casually makes. It was the verbage, not the idea itself.

 

My dad has a saying that I tend to like. "It's not what you say. It's how you say it." Your friend could encourage others to research things for themselves. He/she could say something along the lines of "I encourage you to read up on this so that you can decide for yourself. You shouldn't always believe everything you hear." This would make their point but do so in a non callous, non offensive way.

 

It was the "getting on the bus" comment that was callous and offensive to me. Not your views on peoples' fear driven responses to things.

 

I hope this clarifies where I was coming from. :001_smile:

[naturalmom]

In response to the comment about learning history and looking into the 1918 flu vaccine....I've read a lot about the 1918 flu, but wasn't aware of any vaccine that was offered. I didn't think they had the ability to make flu vaccines at all in 1918 (but I could be wrong)

[Devotional Soul]

WWI troops were given many shots on their way to Europe. Many got flu symptoms on the boats to Spain, and the flu began in the camps there. When they returned, most of America got shot up to be 'protected' from the troops coming home with the flu. Many who were not vaxed got the flu and survived. I'll find links later to back this all up, I've gotta be with my kiddos now.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Devotional Soul

[naturalmom]

Flu vaccine origins and development

In the world wide Spanish flu pandemic of 1918, "Physicians tried everything they knew, everything they had ever heard of, from the ancient art of bleeding patients, to administering oxygen, to developing new vaccines and sera (chiefly against what we now call Hemophilus influenzae—a name derived from the fact that it was originally considered the etiological agent—and several types of pneumococci). Only one therapeutic measure, transfusing blood from recovered patients to new victims, showed any hint of success."[24]

 

In 1931, viral growth in embryonated hens' eggs was discovered, and in the 1940s, the US military developed the first approved inactivated vaccines for influenza, which were used in the Second World War (Baker 2002, Hilleman 2000). Greater advances were made in vaccinology and immunology, and vaccines became safer and mass-produced. Today, thanks to the advances of molecular technology, we are on the verge of making influenza vaccines through the genetic manipulation of influenza genes (Couch 1997, Hilleman 2002).[25]

[hornblower]

In response to the comment about learning history and looking into the 1918 flu vaccine....I've read a lot about the 1918 flu, but wasn't aware of any vaccine that was offered. I didn't think they had the ability to make flu vaccines at all in 1918 (but I could be wrong)

 

No, you are right. But there is quite an active internet population trying to convince people otherwise.

 

I remain quite unconvinced.

[emeraldjoy]

I appreciate you taking the time to write this.

Thanks.

Good, my language was meant to be strong. :D Let me take a moment to clarify why that was so.

 

First of all, it had absolutely nothing to do with me or my choice on vaccination. It did however have everything to do with your bolded words above.

 

I know your OP wasn't about vaccination choices. I am aware of what your point was when posting this thread and I even agree with it on many levels. In fact, I could probably help you argue your case. ;)

 

Let's use 9-11 for example. After 9-11 there was a definite shift towards "fear" in this country. The day after 9-11 I remember people lined up for miles at gas stations in "fear" that there would be no more gas. This was crazy and absolutely driven by fear. Americans also started "fearing" terrorists as if they truly believed they would be killed by a terrorist. :001_huh: Many were more than willing to let our government take away many of our freedoms after 9-11 because they "feared" that terrorists would get them. Taking fingernail clippers from Grandma at the airport comes to mind. ;) This is also crazy and definitely driven by "fear." It is an illogical fear resulting in an illogical response to fear.

 

Do you realize that 1 in every 5 people will be diagnosed with cancer in their lifetimes? We have a MUCH greater chance of dying of cancer than we have of dying at the hands of a terrorist but people generally do not go around lining up for miles outside of hospitals in "fear" of cancer. We all have a MUCH greater chance of dying in car wrecks than of being killied by terrorists but we usually don't even think twice when we hop in the car. These types of "fear" do definitely cause many "herd" responses. Such as lining up for miles at gas stations. Very illogical responses that are driven by illogical fear.

 

This was not the point of my strong words. While I agree with your views on masses of people being driven by fear I do NOT agree with the verbage your salesman friend used. It was the words "get on the bus" that was offensive, not the idea of fear driven responses. Does this make sense?

 

Comparing these responses to "getting on the bus" is very callous IMO. To compare things like people lining up at gas stations or lining up outside of vaccine clinics because of fear to people "getting on buses" and being murdered as a result is extremely offensive and a very callous comparison. (See, I'm using that strong language again. ;))

 

I hope that now you understand where I was coming from. :001_smile: I was not commenting on your views of herded responses to fear. I even agree with you on that. I was commenting on the callous comparison your friend so casually makes. It was the verbage, not the idea itself.

 

My dad has a saying that I tend to like. "It's not what you say. It's how you say it." Your friend could encourage others to research things for themselves. He/she could say something along the lines of "I encourage you to read up on this so that you can decide for yourself. You shouldn't always believe everything you hear." This would make their point but do so in a non callous, non offensive way.

 

It was the "getting on the bus" comment that was callous and offensive to me. Not your views on peoples' fear driven responses to things.

 

I hope this clarifies where I was coming from. :001_smile:

[Lovedtodeath]

Here's a new news article "CBS reveal that swine flu cases seriously overestimated"

 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/10/24/CBS-Reveals-that-Swine-Flu-Cases-Seriously-Overestimated.aspx

I just had a neighbor diagnosed with H1N1 and soon found out that he had Community Aquired Pneumonia instead.

 

I think that H1N1 is grossly over- reported, much in the same way that vaccine reactions are grossly under-reported. A lot of assumption.

[Devotional Soul]

In WWI, it was smallpox and typhoid fever that was the scare to vax for.

[Jumping In Puddles]

Good, my language was meant to be strong. :D Let me take a moment to clarify why that was so.

 

First of all, it had absolutely nothing to do with me or my choice on vaccination. It did however have everything to do with your bolded words above.

 

I know your OP wasn't about vaccination choices. I am aware of what your point was when posting this thread and I even agree with it on many levels. In fact, I could probably help you argue your case. ;)

 

Let's use 9-11 for example. After 9-11 there was a definite shift towards "fear" in this country. The day after 9-11 I remember people lined up for miles at gas stations in "fear" that there would be no more gas. This was crazy and absolutely driven by fear. Americans also started "fearing" terrorists as if they truly believed they would be killed by a terrorist. :001_huh: Many were more than willing to let our government take away many of our freedoms after 9-11 because they "feared" that terrorists would get them. Taking fingernail clippers from Grandma at the airport comes to mind. ;) This is also crazy and definitely driven by "fear." It is an illogical fear resulting in an illogical response to fear.

 

Do you realize that 1 in every 5 people will be diagnosed with cancer in their lifetimes? We have a MUCH greater chance of dying of cancer than we have of dying at the hands of a terrorist but people generally do not go around lining up for miles outside of hospitals in "fear" of cancer. We all have a MUCH greater chance of dying in car wrecks than of being killied by terrorists but we usually don't even think twice when we hop in the car. These types of "fear" do definitely cause many "herd" responses. Such as lining up for miles at gas stations. Very illogical responses that are driven by illogical fear.

 

This was not the point of my strong words. While I agree with your views on masses of people being driven by fear I do NOT agree with the verbage your salesman friend used. It was the words "get on the bus" that was offensive, not the idea of fear driven responses. Does this make sense?

 

Comparing these responses to "getting on the bus" is very callous IMO. To compare things like people lining up at gas stations or lining up outside of vaccine clinics because of fear to people "getting on buses" and being murdered as a result is extremely offensive and a very callous comparison. (See, I'm using that strong language again. ;))

 

I hope that now you understand where I was coming from. :001_smile: I was not commenting on your views of herded responses to fear. I even agree with you on that. I was commenting on the callous comparison your friend so casually makes. It was the verbage, not the idea itself.

 

My dad has a saying that I tend to like. "It's not what you say. It's how you say it." Your friend could encourage others to research things for themselves. He/she could say something along the lines of "I encourage you to read up on this so that you can decide for yourself. You shouldn't always believe everything you hear." This would make their point but do so in a non callous, non offensive way.

 

It was the "getting on the bus" comment that was callous and offensive to me. Not your views on peoples' fear driven responses to things.

 

I hope this clarifies where I was coming from. :001_smile:

 

:iagree: with everything you said.

[tex-mex]

Your friend sells herbal supplements so he has a vested interest in promoting such a thought process. "My herbal supplements are for people who ya know, actually think for themselves. Don't be like those rubes who will just get on the bus".

 

I find your comparison to genocide or other EVILS and H1N1 vaccines to be really ugly and offensive.

 

Many people HAVE researched and still think that vaccines are a good idea.

 

The thought process presented in the OP is similar to, "I'm an atheist and why are all these other people still christian? Why can't they just DO THE RESEARCH and come to the same brilliant conclusion that I have?" (ditto the "I"m a christian and why isn't everybody else?"

 

Research is good. Coming to your own conclusions is good, but implying that people who don't agree with you are just "getting on the bus" is offensive.

 

:iagree: Pseudo-science preys on well-intentioned people who, motivated by love for their kids, become vulnerable to one of the world’s oldest professions -- the snake-oil salesman. And if you need a new factoid to support your belief system, it has never been easier to find one. The Internet offers a treasure trove of undifferentiated information, data, research, speculation, half-truths, anecdotes, and conjecture about health and medicine.

 

It is also a democratizing force that tends to undermine authority, cut out the middleman, and empower individuals. In a world where anyone can attend what folks calls the “University of Google,” boning up on immunology before getting your child vaccinated seems like good, responsible parenting. Thanks to the Internet, everyone can be their own medical investigator. But to compare it (Dont get on the bus by some guy selling you herbal remedies) to Nazi Germany is going off the deep end, IMO. That salesman is just as guilty of preying on your fear to buy his product.

Edited October 25, 2009 by tex-mex

[jelbe5]

I am inclined to agree with you . . .

 

What troubles me is seeing large rooms crowded with people and people standing in long lines outside in the cold and rain . . . with their kids!

 

How many of these people will become sick because they were exposed to the elements and to others who may already be ill?

 

Adrianne

[hornblower]

I just had a neighbor diagnosed with H1N1 and soon found out that he had Community Aquired Pneumonia instead.

 

Pneumonia - bacterial and viral - is a common sequela of influenza. It may not have been INSTEAD. If may have been AND SUBSEQUENTLY.

[hornblower]

It is also a democratizing force that tends to undermine authority, cut out the middleman, and empower individuals. In a world where anyone can attend what folks calls the “University of Google,†boning up on immunology before getting your child vaccinated seems like good, responsible parenting. Thanks to the Internet, everyone can be their own medical investigator.

 

Unfortunately, in a population which is not well educated, does not have critical thinking skills, is predisposed to paranoia and unreasonable fears of 'TPTB', and has poor science literacy, the internet also ends up being a haven for charlatans.

 

 

 

BTW, remember DHMO, anyone? Dangerous stuff. Should be banned. http://www.dhmo.org/

:leaving:

[Jen500]

Unfortunately, in a population which is not well educated, does not have critical thinking skills, is predisposed to paranoia and unreasonable fears of 'TPTB', and has poor science literacy, the internet also ends up being a haven for charlatans.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

BTW, remember DHMO, anyone? Dangerous stuff. Should be banned. http://www.dhmo.org/

:leaving:

 

That is SCARY stuff.

.

.

:lol:

[kalanamak]

BTW, remember DHMO, anyone? Dangerous stuff. Should be banned. http://www.dhmo.org/

:leaving:

 

:lol: From this site I learned it contributes to El Nino, and that both the KKK and the NAACP use it during marches. That it contributes to soil erosion and is also used in cult rituals (and I loved the note about the vehement emails from Scientologists denying use of it).

[LauraGB]

 

BTW, remember DHMO, anyone? Dangerous stuff. Should be banned. http://www.dhmo.org/

:leaving:

 

Boy, I clicked your link and sat here wondering what the heck happened to you overnight; you always seemed so level headed. :lol:

[FlockOfSillies]

I think the same case could be made for people who refuse to get the vaccine out of fear.

[fivetails]

 

BTW, remember DHMO, anyone? Dangerous stuff. Should be banned. http://www.dhmo.org/

:leaving:

 

Oh my goodness - that is AWESOME. :lol:

[mommyrooch]

I think the same case could be made for people who refuse to get the vaccine out of fear.

 

:iagree: completely!

[emeraldjoy]

Exactly. Which is my REAL point that seems to be lost somewhere???

 

I think the same case could be made for people who refuse to get the vaccine out of fear.

 

And just to comment on those who think I am being callous toward the real people who have suffered unmentionable cruelty in the past:

I am not so sure those who in fact did get on busses for whatever reason in the past would be so offended if they knew that this conversation could possibly keep others from getting on busses in the future.

 

And as far as bashing my friend about selling supplements...come.on. really? Seems to be pretty far reaching since you really know nothing about him or what he sells and whom he sells it to.

 

I suppose I am getting just a bit frustrated because over and over again my point is being missed.

[Murphy101]

Yeah.

I see nothing offensive about the phrase used.

I also don't see this guy as using fear manipulation.

 

The phrase means a rather more serious version of "don't jump on the bandwagon" to me.

 

The point isn't to actually scare anyone off any particuliar "bus".

 

The point is to think carefully first and to not jump on out of fear hastily. :001_rolleyes:

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

I suppose I am getting just a bit frustrated because over and over again my point is being missed.

 

An important part of rhetoric (communicating with the intent to persuade ) is to express yourself in a way that gets your point across.

 

I think you have had a number of posters who do get the fact that you want people to be informed citizens and to not just follow the herd blindly - to their detriment - and possibly to their death.

 

Do you have some tips or advice on exactly how to do that? People - esp. on this board! - do research things extensively. But it is difficult when there is an agenda held by many of the experts out there. How do we look behind their agenda to the truth? Or is their agenda a big enough issue that we can't trust what they put out there as the truth? (That btw - is one of the issues that people have had with your herbal salesman friend. He has an agenda in saying what he does. Is it a big enough deal to discount him? No - but people are saying that you need to look behind his agenda and do enough research on his product to see if it is viable and beneficial.)

[Jen500]

We have some very dear friends who own an herbal supplement business.

The last thing he tells all of his clients is "Don't get on the bus", with a chuckle.

but seriously,

 

After witnessing the H1N1 hysteria locally I have really been thinking about this. What he is alluding to in his comment is what has happened in places such as Nazi Germany, Cambodia, etc during time of genocide.

Buses (both metaphorically and not) pull up and people are loaded onto them, mostly willingly. I am more familiar with Camodia where those individuals thought they were loading up to fight a good fight for a good cause. They were then promptly taken to their deaths.

 

Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am not equating the vaccine with death camps. I am simply referring to the fear mentality that our society thrives and has intentionally been set up upon and how it is evdidenced through this whole H1n1 stuff.

 

I happened to be at the office next to the public health office for an appointement. What I saw disturbed me. I saw hundreds of scared people who would literally do ANYTHING because they were afraid about their safety and the safty of their children. I realized how vulnerable we as a society are to influence. I wondered how many of those folks researched themselves or just took the newspapers, pediatricians advice. This is scary to me. Our vulnerability and blind trust of "officials" truly puts us at risk for "getting on the bus".

Thoughts?

Warnings?

am I just confusing you all?

e

 

You made these statements, and then asked for 'Thoughts?'. I don't think I am missing your point. I just think it is a bit ironic, that your post is expressing the same views and actions that it is criticizing.

[Murphy101]

Hmm good questions Jean!

 

I can't profess answers but maybe we can brainstorm together!

 

Off the top I'm thinking of what I personally tend to do. And really don't think about the process so I'm going to have to do that as I type.

 

New idea/situation presented

 

sort any logic issues out of it. Does it make sense? Where does the logic lead. Is it where I want to go? If not why?

 

Do some reasearch. How has this worked in the past? How is it similiar or different to past situation/idea? If the past was a positive or negative what reasonable expectation do I have a similiar outcome and what could be done to avoid negatives?

 

That's off the top of my head. My need more coffee head.

[emeraldjoy]

Yes Jean, very good question.

 

Upon reading your response I have realized that what I am most guilty of during this process is not having enough time to give to this discussion.

 

A short answer is only what I have time for right now. This is sort of a million dollar question you know?

 

In my opinion the most basic element is awareness. Awareness is where everything must begin. People first need to even have the information on their radar before they can apply to their situations. Of course the process cannot just end there, but it certainly must start there.

 

Off to snuzzle the baby....you see? time is huge factor here.

 

e

[emeraldjoy]

Thanks Martha.

Your words are precise and practical; more than I could do.

e

Yeah.

I see nothing offensive about the phrase used.

I also don't see this guy as using fear manipulation.

 

The phrase means a rather more serious version of "don't jump on the bandwagon" to me.

 

The point isn't to actually scare anyone off any particuliar "bus".

 

The point is to think carefully first and to not jump on out of fear hastily. :001_rolleyes:

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Pneumonia - bacterial and viral - is a common sequela of influenza. It may not have been INSTEAD. If may have been AND SUBSEQUENTLY.

That is true, but his doctor apologized for the misdiagnosis and didn't charge him for the follow up visit or medication.

[Lovedtodeath]

An important part of rhetoric (communicating with the intent to persuade ) is to express yourself in a way that gets your point across.

 

I think you have had a number of posters who do get the fact that you want people to be informed citizens and to not just follow the herd blindly - to their detriment - and possibly to their death.

 

Do you have some tips or advice on exactly how to do that? People - esp. on this board! - do research things extensively. But it is difficult when there is an agenda held by many of the experts out there. How do we look behind their agenda to the truth? Or is their agenda a big enough issue that we can't trust what they put out there as the truth? (That btw - is one of the issues that people have had with your herbal salesman friend. He has an agenda in saying what he does. Is it a big enough deal to discount him? No - but people are saying that you need to look behind his agenda and do enough research on his product to see if it is viable and beneficial.)

This is so true. I thought I researched vaccines. I decided to go ahead. Then when they almost killed my son, I researched again and got information that totally contradicted the first set of information that I had. It seems impossible to truly get good information.

[Danestress]

I suppose I am getting just a bit frustrated because over and over again my point is being missed.

 

Not agreeing with and missing are two different things. I don't agree that those who are getting vaccinated have done less research than you or your friend. I don't agree that getting vaccinated is an action done out of fear any more than not getting vaccinated is a fear response. And while it's true that most of us on this board are not experts on infectious diseases and don't really fully know whether the vaccine is a good idea or a bad one, that is as true of those who avoid it as it is of those who are waiting in line for it.

 

Some of us will vaccinate and part of it will be "well, I trust my doctor and he is knowledgeable and recommends it." Others of us will not vaccinate and will say, "Well, I saw a doctor on tv who said it was not sufficiently tested and advised against it." For many of us, ultimately it will be a choice based on trusting one source more than another.

 

I still haven't decided whether to get a swine flu vaccination. What am I waiting for? I don't know. I just haven't decided. But probably my decision won't be based on a really independent evaluation of clinical trials because I don't HAVE those trials and wouldn't understand them if I did. I will probably base my decision on medical professionals who do understand them (or try) and who observe the pattern of the disease and make a recommendation.

 

That's really how most of us make decisions about healthcare, and it's very imperfect, but I think regardless of what we decide, that's how most of us do it. We "get on the chemo bus" or "get on the herb bus" or "get on the surgery bus" because it seems like the best option based on what we learn doing the research we can do. And yes, those decisions really can harm us, but choosing not to vaccinate, not to have surgery or not to have chemo (or not to just go with diet and exercise) can also have terrible consequences.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

We have some very dear friends who own an herbal supplement business.

The last thing he tells all of his clients is "Don't get on the bus", with a chuckle.

but seriously,

 

After witnessing the H1N1 hysteria locally I have really been thinking about this. What he is alluding to in his comment is what has happened in places such as Nazi Germany, Cambodia, etc during time of genocide.

Buses (both metaphorically and not) pull up and people are loaded onto them, mostly willingly. I am more familiar with Camodia where those individuals thought they were loading up to fight a good fight for a good cause. They were then promptly taken to their deaths.

 

Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am not equating the vaccine with death camps. I am simply referring to the fear mentality that our society thrives and has intentionally been set up upon and how it is evdidenced through this whole H1n1 stuff.

 

I happened to be at the office next to the public health office for an appointement. What I saw disturbed me. I saw hundreds of scared people who would literally do ANYTHING because they were afraid about their safety and the safty of their children. I realized how vulnerable we as a society are to influence. I wondered how many of those folks researched themselves or just took the newspapers, pediatricians advice. This is scary to me. Our vulnerability and blind trust of "officials" truly puts us at risk for "getting on the bus".

Thoughts?

Warnings?

am I just confusing you all?

e

 

I feel the same way every time I see cars lined up to get into one of those megachurches.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

What I do not know, and may not know for a long time is the percentage of people who got the H1N1 and died vs the percentage of people who got the flu shot and died or had some other permanent complication. Waiting may just prove ineffective as well.

 

 

how long will you wait? 100% of the people who get the H1N1 vaccine will eventually die. Many of them will suffer some sort of impairment.

Of course, 100% of the people who didn't get the vaccine will also eventually die, many after suffering some sort of impairment.

Edited October 25, 2009 by MeanestMomInMidwest

[emeraldjoy]

me too!

I wonder the turn this conversation would have taken if I had used this as an example instead.......interesting.

I feel the same way every time I see cars lined up to get into one of those megachurches.

[*********]

:grouphug:

I feel the same way every time I see cars lined up to get into one of those megachurches.

 

This.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

me too!

I wonder the turn this conversation would have taken if I had used this as an example instead.......interesting.

 

 

I would have said:

 

:iagree:

[Tree House Academy]

how long will you wait? 100% of the people who get the H1N1 vaccine will eventually die. Many of them will suffer some sort of impairment.

Of course, 100% of the people who didn't get the vaccine will also eventually die, many after suffering some sort of impairment.

 

Ha.Ha.

[Tree House Academy]

DHMO...as in WATER. Oh my. I may not stop laughing now! Really shows us how much we shouldn't read into "scientific facts." LOL

[tex-mex]

Boy, I clicked your link and sat here wondering what the heck happened to you overnight; you always seemed so level headed. :lol:

 

:lol::lol::lol: I clicked on her link and said, "W-haaaa?". LOL

[Marylou]

That is SCARY stuff.

 

 

Almost as scary as this!

[Brindee]

BTW, remember DHMO, anyone? Dangerous stuff. Should be banned. http://www.dhmo.org/

:leaving:

I'll admit to using DHMO my whole life. But at least I'm still alive!:tongue_smilie: