s/o Why is it the responsibility of the gov't to oversee programs?

[johnandtinagilbert]

Looking for more whys? and if you believe they should oversee/promote/run, which programs should they be on top of, whether current, past, or those you believe should be included in their jurisdiction?

[Julie in Austin]

As for those who mention.... education... it was better prior to state run schools [/b]

 

Unless you were African American, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, poor, or disabled.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I am enjoying the more peaceable portions of the recent threads about health care, entitlements, rights, etc. and although we differ, I am interested in understanding the perspective that it is the gov't's responsibility to facilitate the basic needs of those, for whatever reason, can't attain them individually (or for their families).

 

Why is it the gov'ts responsibility? Thank you for your thoughtful and peaceful participation.

 

Keep in mind I have not had a chance to read the rest of this thread;).

 

Well IMHO we have already heard from some on other threads about those who have suffered through catastrophic illness and even belonged to a church and no one stepped up to the plate. Or what about those who have no one in this world and are too sick to ask for help? I have taken care many unfortunate people with no family in the world and were all alone:sad: Lastly, I think that when crisis hits a family, it may be quite difficult for them to go out and seek help through donations and such.

[usetoschool]

Unless you were African American, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, poor, or disabled.

 

You can't apply today's racial standards to a time in the past. Everything was more difficult or impossible for those groups of people in the past. I would argue that African Americans and Hispanics are still poorly served by the public school system, I think, in part, because they have been granted victimhood status by liberals. (Where is that shield smilie? I said in part. I realize that it is harder to be a minority and there are genuine road blocks.) In districts, charter schools, or private schools where principals and teachers are allowed to implement their own curriculum, there are great strides being made even among the poorest kids. Movies are made, books are written about this very thing with some regularity. Pres. Obama was trying to shut down an excellent program in Wash. D.C. that turned out very well educated poor/minority children. I think it is the government run public school system that is currently failing them. Asians have long since pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps and are consistently among the highest scoring groups and disabled kids were mainstreamed long ago. People are still fighting for rights and a better system but I don't think that government run school has proven to be the answer.

[Mrs Mungo]

You can't apply today's racial standards to a time in the past. Everything was more difficult or impossible for those groups of people in the past. I would argue that African Americans and Hispanics are still poorly served by the public school system, I think, in part, because they have been granted victimhood status by liberals. (Where is that shield smilie? I said in part. I realize that it is harder to be a minority and there are genuine road blocks.) In districts, charter schools, or private schools where principals and teachers are allowed to implement their own curriculum, there are great strides being made even among the poorest kids. Movies are made, books are written about this very thing with some regularity. Pres. Obama was trying to shut down an excellent program in Wash. D.C. that turned out very well educated poor/minority children. I think it is the government run public school system that is currently failing them. Asians have long since pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps and are consistently among the highest scoring groups and disabled kids were mainstreamed long ago. People are still fighting for rights and a better system but I don't think that government run school has proven to be the answer.

 

:blink:

 

I somewhat agree with what you are saying here and couldn't disagree more with some of what you are saying here.

 

I'm really not sure where to start with this and I don't think it belongs in this thread. The fact that every discussion on race that I've seen here has been shut down doesn't bode well for the fate of any such discussion.

 

So, I will just say that I have read a number of books and watched a number of documentaries that have affected my own perceptions about the public school system and its successes and failings especially in regard to race and economics. Kozol, Holt, Gatto, Kiyosaki and others have really had an impact on how I think about this. So have certain documentaries like this one: http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/cripsandbloods/ on the crips and the bloods.

[usetoschool]

:blink:

 

I somewhat agree with what you are saying here and couldn't disagree more with some of what you are saying here.

 

I'm really not sure where to start with this and I don't think it belongs in this thread. The fact that every discussion on race that I've seen here has been shut down doesn't bode well for the fate of any such discussion.

 

So, I will just say that I have read a number of books and watched a number of documentaries that have affected my own perceptions about the public school system and its successes and failings especially in regard to race and economics. Kozol, Holt, Gatto, Kiyosaki and others have really had an impact on how I think about this. So have certain documentaries like this one: http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/cripsandbloods/ on the crips and the bloods.

 

Totally unrelated I know and was NOT trying to change the subject or make anything about race - just commenting on how putting the education system into government hands did not serve the minority population in response to the post right before mine in the context of putting things in government hands isn't always the answer. Sorry, very limited response to a specific statement in the middle of another topic. Probably should have just left it alone. Thanks for the link, by the way, very interesting.

[Mrs Mungo]

Totally unrelated I know and was NOT trying to change the subject or make anything about race - just commenting on how putting the education system into government hands did not serve the minority population in response to the post right before mine in the context of putting things in government hands isn't always the answer. Sorry, very limited response to a specific statement in the middle of another topic. Probably should have just left it alone. Thanks for the link, by the way, very interesting.

 

I do agree with you that it hasn't necessarily served the population better.

[Peek a Boo]

This website has some interesting discussion on the "general welfare" issue. I think it may be misinterpreted when it's applied to acts that benefit only certain individuals.....

I find these quotes enlightening:

Madison:

"With respect to the two words "general welfare," I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."

 

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions."

 

Jefferson:

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."

 

:iagree:

 

True, but in our litigious society,

 

This is why it makes more sense to address the litigious problems thru tort reform rather than compound it with MORE restrictions on individual liberties.

 

Why is the line being drawn at access to health care? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

who says those against national healthcare are "drawing the line" there? Most people that are against national/ UHC are ALSO against other gvt programs and would draw the line further back if they could. What is being seen now is people trying to stop the hemorrhaging where they can- and that happens to be at this specific issue for now.

[Haiku]

I have a right to seek medical treatment, any kind of treatment I choose, but I don't have a right to make other people pay for it.

 

But what do you think health insurance is? It's other people paying for your care. When you pay your insurance premiums, your money does not go into a pot with the label jcoopertc; it goes into a huge pot with everyone else's money and is doled out as needed (or, rather, as the insurance company sees fit). The whole premise of insurance is that we pay for one another.

 

Tara

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

But what do you think health insurance is? It's other people paying for your care. When you pay your insurance premiums, your money does not go into a pot with the label jcoopertc; it goes into a huge pot with everyone else's money and is doled out as needed (or, rather, as the insurance company sees fit). The whole premise of insurance is that we pay for one another.

 

Tara

 

Amen sister:)

[Haiku]

For about $1800/year I insure myself and 5 children.

 

Well hell! Sign me up! Our private insurance premiums are $1600 a month for my husband's employer-offered health insurance. Point me in the direction of this uber-cheap insurance!!

 

Tara

[astrid]

But what do you think health insurance is? It's other people paying for your care. When you pay your insurance premiums, your money does not go into a pot with the label jcoopertc; it goes into a huge pot with everyone else's money and is doled out as needed (or, rather, as the insurance company sees fit). The whole premise of insurance is that we pay for one another.

 

Tara

:iagree:

astrid

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

For about $1800/year I insure myself and 5 children.

 

 

IMHO I would be looking over that $1800.00/year insurance very carefully. There have been reports of private health insurance that is really nothing more than a sham. Currently, I pay $600.00/month for my dh, son ,and myself for blue cross plan that has a $5000.00 deductible/year for each of us and it does not qualify for medical savings account:001_huh:.

 

Also, high deductible plans put many people on the edge of financial or medical disaster even when they are doing everything right financially including myself now that I am facing a quite serious exacerbation of asthma for the past 7 weeks.

[JennC]

Well hell! Sign me up! Our private insurance premiums are $1600 a month for my husband's employer-offered health insurance. Point me in the direction of this uber-cheap insurance!!

 

Tara

I understand where you are. When we switched from dh's plan to this, our out of pocket for family premium was going to be $890/month.

 

It is called a High Deductible Health Care Plan. It is through BlueCross/BlueShield and it is NOT a sham.

We have a $5,000/$10,000 deductible. 5 per person up to 10 per family per year.

The plan pays for well baby and I believe one preventive appointment for adults (not postitive on the adult but for sure on the wellchild through age 7) including immunizations for under 7 at 100%.

Other than that it pays nothing, but does give the benefit of no balance billing for network providers. (Most in MT are BC providers)

After the deductible it pays 100% for BC providers.

Along with this plan we maintain a health savings account. We are allowed to contribute $5200/year/family pre tax. The money accumulates in the account and we can use it for medical expenses - chiro, dentist, md, np, otc, rx, etc as well as premiums.

This is not a use or lose type of account. It is more like an IRA and at retirement all accumulated money can be withdrawn and used for a broader list of approved expenses. Sorry I don't have the link - somewhere on a thread a while back someone posted a link to the gov website that gives the details.

A reputable health insurance sales person should be able to give you details on competing insurance companies who offer this in your state.

 

IMO, if every one took charge of their own health care in a way like this where first dollars were out of pocket, and planning and saving were encouraged, that would be a good first step to health care reform.

This plan also allows me to not buy a plan that pays for things I don't need or don't wish to pool my money for. I don't want to pay for susie's abortion, for instance. We will not need any more prenatal/natal care, etc.

I don't need a comprehensive plan and I don't see health insurance as different from car insurance. I don't submit a claim to have my oil changed and tires rotated. But if there is an accident and costs are too much, then I have a plan with the deductible and corresponding price of MY CHOICE.

Almost all Americans can shoulder a $5 or $10,000 bill. It may be hard, you might have to sell your car, maybe down size your house, quit dance lessons, cancel TV, cell service, make payments, etc. But most people would not have to file bankruptcy to handle this. And if you save beforehand the money you don't spend on the high premium, you'll have the cushion.

[Haiku]

Other than that it pays nothing

 

So this is not something that would work for a family that has ongoing, extremely high medical bills to treat a chronic health problem?

 

Tara

[JennC]

So this is not something that would work for a family that has ongoing, extremely high medical bills to treat a chronic health problem?

 

Tara

At 1600/month vs say 400 if it is you and your dh (that's what it would be for us), you would save 1200 +/- per month. That's 14,400 per year in savings from premium alone. So put 5200 of that in your hsa tax free. put the other 9000 in savings. if you have a $5000 deductible for your son, you can easily pay that out of pocket. Then the insurance kicks in (in our case) at 100%. You save a lot of money. Depending on the health care cost of the rest of your family, you could be building a great deal of savings over several years. Worst case, you meet your deductible every year, you still save 4400 per year on premiums.

Of course your rates depend on your age and - according to some posters - what state you live in. But I would definitely look into it no matter where I lived. ymmv

 

So I would say, based on our experience, that yes it would work for your type of family. I know for us, even after we spent the 800 out of pocket for premiums, we still had a $500 deductible and the plan only paid 60 or 40% after that was met. (don't remember exactly), but it wasn't great. And there was always so much rig-a-marole about what it covered, etc. Now I save money and there are no surprises.

Edited August 15, 2009 by JennC
probably going to be insulted again for my choice of words

[Melissa in Australia]

We seem to have a bit more faith in our government than you Americans do in yours, but here we think certain things are the government's responsibility because that's what we voted them in to take care of. If we don't like it, we make our gripes heard loud enough that they become election issues. Paying taxes, to us, is kind of like setting up automatic debit from your bank account so you don't have to remember which day to pay your rent each month.

Rosie

 

 

I agree with you Rosie. the more threads I read about American paranoia about their governments, the gladder I am that I live here!

[Audrey]

I agree with you Rosie. the more threads I read about American paranoia about their governments, the gladder I am that I live here!

 

 

Having lived on both sides of the border, I can tell you the paranoia is not unfounded. We're brought up in a culture of control by fear. We're taught to be very afraid of anyone in authority -- the cops will nail your a$$; the tax man will audit you to death and beyond; the government can storm in guns ablazing if they feel like it; one wrong step and CPS will take your kids away forever. We see it on the news all the time. There's always a "THEM" to fight, too. When my dad was a kid it was the big bad Nazis. Then when he was a young man, it was the big bad Russians, then the big bad Vietnamese/Chinese. Then 9/11 came along and it's the big bad Muslims/Arabs. There's always a boogeyman out to getcha.

 

Let me tell you... it takes years to deprogram from that.

[keptwoman]

Having lived on both sides of the border, I can tell you the paranoia is not unfounded. We're brought up in a culture of control by fear. We're taught to be very afraid of anyone in authority -- the cops will nail your a$$; the tax man will audit you to death and beyond; the government can storm in guns ablazing if they feel like it; one wrong step and CPS will take your kids away forever. We see it on the news all the time. There's always a "THEM" to fight, too. When my dad was a kid it was the big bad Nazis. Then when he was a young man, it was the big bad Russians, then the big bad Vietnamese/Chinese. Then 9/11 came along and it's the big bad Muslims/Arabs. There's always a boogeyman out to getcha.

 

Let me tell you... it takes years to deprogram from that.

That's interesting Audrey. I find it fascinating sitting in on these boards and listening to these discussions. Often I'm left rather shocked actually.

And I have to say that while once I may have rather liked the idea of living in the US for a while now I can say with absolute honesty that after being on these boards a while I'm not remotely interested. Although very happy to visit to admire the scenery and see some of our very special friends who call the US home.

 

I'm also very very grateful and appreciative of both my countries (New Zealand and Australia) and their values and way of life. They are both very far from perfect and there is much that could be better but on the whole they are both special countries indeed. What a priviledge all we Aussies and Kiwis have of being able to live in either.

[Rosie_0801]

I expect I'll deserve to have tomatoes thrown at me for asking this, but how can Americans be so patriotic when they have so little trust in their government? I'm not trying to be rude, honestly. Patriotism is a bit of a weird concept to me anyway, since us Aussies don't really do much of it.

 

I'll agree with Keptwoman. It sure is illuminating hanging out here.

 

 

Rosie

[keptwoman]

Actually Rosie from what I've seen I reckon Aussies are fairly patriotic too. Not quite up there with the US but still more so than Kiwis.

 

I just don't understand wanting to be somewhere that doesn't properly care for the least of their people. To me caring for the poor and downtrodden is a hallmark of a truely civilised society. I'm happy for my money to go to the government to do that.

[Rosie_0801]

Actually Rosie from what I've seen I reckon Aussies are fairly patriotic too. Not quite up there with the US but still more so than Kiwis.

 

 

Alright. This Aussie doesn't do much of it :)

I find a bit too much of Australian patriotism is tied up in sporting achievments I don't care about and "happy history" that I don't agree with. Anyhow, that's got nothing to do with the OP, so I'll pipe down.

 

Rosie

[Melissa in Australia]

Alright. This Aussie doesn't do much of it :)

I find a bit too much of Australian patriotism is tied up in sporting achievments I don't care about and "happy history" that I don't agree with. Anyhow, that's got nothing to do with the OP, so I'll pipe down.

 

Rosie

 

not much patriotism here either. except when I am teasing my Canadian husband. he can never get over how much the media is saying that Australia is leading the world, and the best ever! :lol:

 

 

I think Us Aussies have hijacked another thread. :D

[keptwoman]

All the talk of this and that being "unAustralian" always makes me giggle.

[Laura Corin]

 

I think Us Aussies have hijacked another thread. :D

 

Laura

[LaxMom]

But what do you think health insurance is? It's other people paying for your care. When you pay your insurance premiums, your money does not go into a pot with the label jcoopertc; it goes into a huge pot with everyone else's money and is doled out as needed (or, rather, as the insurance company sees fit). The whole premise of insurance is that we pay for one another.

 

Tara

Yes, and let us not forget that the insurance companies are for profit corporations.

 

I expect I'll deserve to have tomatoes thrown at me for asking this, but how can Americans be so patriotic when they have so little trust in their government? I'm not trying to be rude, honestly. Patriotism is a bit of a weird concept to me anyway, since us Aussies don't really do much of it.

 

I'll agree with Keptwoman. It sure is illuminating hanging out here.

 

 

Rosie

It's not you. It is an odd concept to me, too, and I am a native (not Native) American. I find it difficult to claim "pride" in something which I had no role in achieving. ( though I am often mortified by association)

[Gretchen in NJ]

Unless you were African American, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, poor, or disabled.

 

:svengo:I am very shocked by this statement. I am apalled really. I have been staring at it in shock and disbelief for quite some time.

 

Some in these groups may have not been classically educated or neo-classically for that matter;), but that doesn't mean they were uneducated. Just because they may have not been able to read and write in the English language or knew about Greek and Roman myths, etc.. doesn't mean these people were uneducated. Native Americans for one had/have their own rich and diverse culture.

[Donna]

I expect I'll deserve to have tomatoes thrown at me for asking this, but how can Americans be so patriotic when they have so little trust in their government? I'm not trying to be rude, honestly. Patriotism is a bit of a weird concept to me anyway, since us Aussies don't really do much of it.

 

I am not going to throw tomatoes. I think it is a good question and I will attempt to answer it for me.

 

For me, patriotism contains a number of things.

 

It isn't about my government but about what the country stands for...rights, freedoms, philosophy, our constitution, our history (well, most of it). I don't agree with a lot that is going on in our country at the moment but I have lived here long enough to see certain ideals ebb and flow and am glad we, as the people, have a say even if I don't agree with the majority at the moment. I can tell my children that if they are willing to work hard and make good choices, they can help to shape who they become and try to reach their dreams. I don't think people from other countries flock to the US because of its government (meaning each separate administration). They come here for opportunities.

 

 

Also pride in the beauty of this country. I have travelled all over our nation and seen the wonders and beauty of it. (Not saying there aren't more wonderous or beautiful places in the world just that I like what I see here as well.)

 

Last, there is pride in the people. People who are willing to stand up for themselves and others, people who believe in their ideals (even if I don't agree with them), people who are willing to give of themselves to fight in the armed forces to defend our ideals, and people who work together in communities and churches. We recently worked to raise money for my dd to be able to do something we couldn't afford (a wonderful but expensive opportunity) and it brought tears to my eyes when others, mostly strangers, came forward willing to help. I know other nations have those kinds of people as well and they should be proud of them and patriotic about their own nation.

 

Anyway, that is why I am patriotic and proud to be an American.

[mirth]

As for those who mention.... education... it was better prior to state run schools

 

Unless you were African American, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, poor, or disabled.

 

The Chinese civilization has included written language for over 5000 years and produced numerous inventions. The Massachusetts Constitution, which was adopted in 1780, was the only the first and one that said that each town had to provide free public education to all children. As far as I know, this started public schooling in the USA. I do not feel that 1780 was a pivotal year in the enlightenment of Asians, say. If I did, I would have to provide basis to conclude that Chinese were actually quite dim for the 4800 years prior to 1780. Anyone want to have a go at this?

Edited August 15, 2009 by mirth

[Gretchen in NJ]

The Chinese civilization has included written language for over 5000 years and produced numerous inventions. The Massachusetts Constitution, which was adopted in 1780, was the only the first and one that said that each town had to provide free public education to all children. As far as I know, this started public schooling in the USA. I do not feel that 1780 was a pivotal year in the enlightenment of Asians, say. If I did, I would have to provide basis to conclude that Chinese were actually quite dim for the 4800 years prior to 1780. Anyone want to have a go at this?

 

Another good point.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Gretchen in NJ
I need more sleep.;)

[Gretchen in NJ]

Well stated.:)

Edited August 15, 2009 by Gretchen in NJ

[Jenny in Atl]

So this is not something that would work for a family that has ongoing, extremely high medical bills to treat a chronic health problem?

 

Tara

 

Ya, like mine... we have BC/BS and a kid with Type-1 diabetes. Wanna guess what our total out-of-pocket medical expenditures are a year? :tongue_smilie: Oh, and it goes up each year as BC/BS raises out premium and Fi's med prices go up as well. Last year we paid ~ $14k.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I expect I'll deserve to have tomatoes thrown at me for asking this, but how can Americans be so patriotic when they have so little trust in their government? I'm not trying to be rude, honestly. Patriotism is a bit of a weird concept to me anyway, since us Aussies don't really do much of it.

 

I'll agree with Keptwoman. It sure is illuminating hanging out here.

 

 

Rosie

My sense of patriotism comes not by love of the gov't, but by a rich history of dedication to keep the people in charge of the gov't. Some of what I love may not be unique to our nation, but some is.

 

I appreciate the nations history of independence, we have an all volunteer army, freedom of religion, women's rights, ingenuity, sense of both small and large community, although not managing well, our political system, in model form :), is a beautifully structured one :), diversity of cultures, when provoked (Katrina, 9/11) our nation has an amazing ability to gather together and work for a common purpose, there are a lot of "firsts" in history by America. Freedom, freedom, freedom.

 

There is much to feel proud to be an American, we are a great nation. I do, honestly, feel like we are on the downside of the Cycle of Nations, though and worry about our future. At the same time, there isn't anywhere else in the world I would want to live (except maybe the Republic of Texas -- a joke for us Texas lovers!). So I will continue to exercise my right as a citizen of this nation and hope that things can come around before they get too far into bad places.

 

The other poster said it better than I :)

[usetoschool]

But what do you think health insurance is? It's other people paying for your care. When you pay your insurance premiums, your money does not go into a pot with the label jcoopertc; it goes into a huge pot with everyone else's money and is doled out as needed (or, rather, as the insurance company sees fit). The whole premise of insurance is that we pay for one another.

 

Tara

 

The people contributing signed up for it and agreed to the contract. It was by choice. They chose the plan and the services and can legally cancel their involvement at any time.

[johnandtinagilbert]

The people contributing signed up for it and agreed to the contract. It was by choice. They chose the plan and the services and can legally cancel their involvement at any time.

Exactly. It's a matter of choice versus mandate.

[usetoschool]

I expect I'll deserve to have tomatoes thrown at me for asking this, but how can Americans be so patriotic when they have so little trust in their government? I'm not trying to be rude, honestly. Patriotism is a bit of a weird concept to me anyway, since us Aussies don't really do much of it.

 

I'll agree with Keptwoman. It sure is illuminating hanging out here.

 

 

Rosie

 

No tomatoes...

 

My patriotism has nothing to do with the government. In fact, just the opposite. It is because this country was founded on the principle of limited government, that there is such an uproar right now. The foundation of the United States is freedom and choice and opportunity to achieve without the government. To take care of yourself and fulfill your dreams and to build communities and help each other. The right to associate with whomever you wish, to speak out without fear, to attend any church you wish or even start your own, to not live in fear of the government hauling you away in the middle of the night, to choose your livelihood, and on and on. I am fully aware that there have been, and continue to be, problems because people are flawed, but the premise is sound and enobling. The history of the world is one of tyranny and dictatorship and power in the hands of a few controlling the lives of the masses. The United States was founded on a completely different premise - that the people should be in charge.

 

That, I believe, is why there is such an outpouring of frustration over health care and all of the other government interference that has been introduced in the last few years - it is introducing a high level of government interference into places where government doesn't belong - based on our consititution. And I think (hope) we have reached a tipping point, where Americans are saying enough already and are beginning to push back.

 

As my daughter says, you don't see people dieing off the coast of Cuba, trying to get in. I believe people have a natural longing for freedom. I believe the US is unique in many ways, but there are many countries in the world where freedom is a priority, Australia and NZ being a couple of them. As "socialist" as the UK is, it is still freer than most of the world and why, I think, you see people from all over the world flocking there. Hispanics by the truck load are coming to the US and we have a huge immigration problem and it isn't because the weather is better...;)

[Julie in Austin]

The Chinese civilization has included written language for over 5000 years and produced numerous inventions. The Massachusetts Constitution, which was adopted in 1780, was the only the first and one that said that each town had to provide free public education to all children. As far as I know, this started public schooling in the USA. I do not feel that 1780 was a pivotal year in the enlightenment of Asians, say. If I did, I would have to provide basis to conclude that Chinese were actually quite dim for the 4800 years prior to 1780. Anyone want to have a go at this?

 

If you go back to the original comments, you'll see that my comment was directed solely at people in the United States of that descent.

[Haiku]

Ya, like mine... we have BC/BS and a kid with Type-1 diabetes. Wanna guess what our total out-of-pocket medical expenditures are a year? :tongue_smilie: Oh, and it goes up each year as BC/BS raises out premium and Fi's med prices go up as well. Last year we paid ~ $14k.

 

When I did our taxes this year, I was shocked and appalled to find that our out-of-pocket medical expenses were $27,000. And that's with insurance. Premiums, deductibles, and co-pays are killing us.

 

Tara

[Haiku]

The people contributing signed up for it and agreed to the contract. It was by choice. They chose the plan and the services and can legally cancel their involvement at any time.

 

And there are lots and lots and lots of people who want to sign up and have a contract to agree to, and they are told, "No." Those nifty insurance companies give them no choice.

 

ETA: It seems to me that you are saying that, as long as the insurance company deems someone worthy to join the pool, you have no problem sharing the cost, but if the insurance company won't let someone in, too bad for them. That's giving the insurance companies an awful lot of power, and what happens to those people that insurance company won't play with?

 

Tara

Edited August 15, 2009 by TaraTheLiberator

[dangerdad]

But I believe it is still a lesser evil.

 

And I believe there is no greater evil in this world than to take away our moral choices.

 

I think the people who have risked their lives to come to freedom bolster that point.

[TXMomof4]

 

Do you think the government (including city, county, state, federal governments in that word) should subsidize anything? Should it pay for roads, hospitals, polices forces, fire departments, the military, the electrical grid and other such infrastructure? Why is the line being drawn at access to health care? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

The FEDERAL gov is limited in what it should provide. The military, roads(as a part of interstate commerce/ defense), electrical grid - that's about the extent of it to me.

 

Fire Depts, police depts, schools, hospitals, water, waste treatment, local/state roads, etc. should be, and for the most part, are done at the state - local level. If a state refused to accept the federal money for the public schools - would they have to conform to the No Child Left Behind plan? I know my dad had to attend a class after 9/11 to be the NBC officer for his fire dept. That was paid by the fed. gov, but the rest of the fire dept. costs are taken care of by the city.

 

I just don't like the fed. gov. thinking they know what is right for everyone. What works in New Hampshire as far as healthcare will NOT work in TX where we have a huge number of illegals. Maintaining our roads requires something a little different simply because of the HUGE amount of roads to be maintained. Even the difference between the metropolitan areas of TX and the rural areas means some of these issues can only be dealt with effectively at a city level.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Some here keep referring to being forced to pay taxes or being forced to participate in government run health care.

 

First of all, right now the options on the table all allow choice as to whether to participate in a public health care option. Single payer universal healthcare is not even being considered seriously which IMHO, I wish it was since it would be the most cost effective option for all.

 

Second, IMHO, no one is forced since we have a democratic republic. You have the freedom to vote and support those who represent your ideas and may the best man win:). Now unfortunately, you hear in the media of some voicing threats of violence since their ideas are not in the majority. IMHO, that is not democracy at all, that is brute force.

 

Lastly, I am dismayed by reports in the media of some using villification techniques such as death panels and such which are not true and do not further the principles of civil, rational discourse. I am fortunate to have family members on both sides of the divide and have learned that both sides have things to bring to the table. I have also learned that demonization of the "others" is not helpful and downright dangerous in the least. We are all Americans and love our country. We are also not the enemy just because some of our ideas are different.

[Stacy in NJ]

I asked my husband this question a few months ago. He generally prefers small government but he is for some kind of health care/insurance reform.

 

His response was that it really isn't an open market issue right now, the large corporations (benefits), insurance companies and health care corporations do not currently operate on a level playing field. Since individuals do not have significant control of the current system, some government oversight is probably necessary.

 

He's right in that it currently isn't an open market right now and hasn't been for a very long time. Each state heavily regulates and mandates specific provisions and benefits in every policy, wether individual or group, that's sold within its jurisdiction. Some of those mandates are appropriate protections for the consumer, but others are insane mandates promoted by the AMA or hospital associations that significantly drive up the cost of care to the benefit of provides. One way to help control cost would be do allow insures to sell policies across state lines, allowing consumers to shop for the best policies at the best prices. This is completely restricted currently.

 

Contarary to what some would say, many of the largest insurers and pharma companies favor a national healthcare program because as larger players they would be able to limit competition. Crony capitalism, anyone?

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Just for the record, this is from our constitution:

 

The Constitution of the United States of America

From the preamble:

 

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

Article I

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

[LizzyBee]

Bill beat me to the punch. As to what constitutes general welfare... I think banning high fructose corn syrup would go a long way toward promoting the general welfare of the American populace.

 

Just kidding.

 

Sorta, kinda.

 

Okay, not really.

 

Btw, turning your question around, why is it the government's responsibility to provide roads? Or is it not, in your opinion?

 

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

 

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

 

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

 

Personally, I think the Commerce clause is used to justify a lot of laws that are beyond the scope of the federal government.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Some here keep referring to being forced to pay taxes or being forced to participate in government run health care.

 

First of all, right now the options on the table all allow choice as to whether to participate in a public health care option. Single payer universal healthcare is not even being considered seriously which IMHO, I wish it was since it would be the most cost effective option for all.

 

Second, IMHO, no one is forced since we have a democratic republic. You have the freedom to vote and support those who represent your ideas and may the best man win:). Now unfortunately, you hear in the media of some voicing threats of violence since their ideas are not in the majority. IMHO, that is not democracy at all, that is brute force.

 

Lastly, I am dismayed by reports in the media of some using villification techniques such as death panels and such which are not true and do not further the principles of civil, rational discourse. I am fortunate to have family members on both sides of the divide and have learned that both sides have things to bring to the table. I have also learned that demonization of the "others" is not helpful and downright dangerous in the least. We are all Americans and love our country. We are also not the enemy just because some of our ideas are different.

If a person chooses Not to have health care, the proposed plan will fine them and will have access to their checking accounts to retrieve that fine. That is forceful.

 

I'm not sure who isn't taking single payer seriously. I believe that is the end game.

 

I agree that the media, etc On Both Sides of the debate mix and muddle truth, lie and scare tactic. It's a shame.

 

I don't see anyone as the enemy, although i accept some do. I'm just concerned b/c many of the ideas on opposite ends are so far apart, I'm not sure we are standing United enough to be one nation. It truly concerns me.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

 

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

 

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

 

Personally, I think the Commerce clause is used to justify a lot of laws that are beyond the scope of the federal government.

Thank you. More of what I am looking for. I may be reading up on the Constitution for the rest of my vaca...

[LizzyBee]

Contarary to what some would say, many of the largest insurers and pharma companies favor a national healthcare program because as larger players they would be able to limit competition. Crony capitalism, anyone?

 

Yep. Lobbyists for the pharmaceutical industry have gotten most of what they want written into the proposed bills. This weekend, PhRMA, which represents the country's largest pharmaceutical and biotech companies, is beginning a multi-billion ($50B, I think) ad campaign in favor of healthcare reform. My question is, if the companies who are believed to be at the root of many of the healthcare problems in this country are controlling reform, how is reform supposed to make things better than they are?

[usetoschool]

And there are lots and lots and lots of people who want to sign up and have a contract to agree to, and they are told, "No." Those nifty insurance companies give them no choice.

 

ETA: It seems to me that you are saying that, as long as the insurance company deems someone worthy to join the pool, you have no problem sharing the cost, but if the insurance company won't let someone in, too bad for them. That's giving the insurance companies an awful lot of power, and what happens to those people that insurance company won't play with?

 

Tara

 

There are always options under the current system. It is under the government system that there won't be any options.

 

Currently you can shop around and sign up for a program in another state, find group insurance through employers or professional organizations or clubs, become your own group, apply to the state insurance fund, use COBRA, apply to your states insurance company of last resort, sign up for the states high risk pool, become part of a pooled private fund with high deductibles, etc. It just isn't low cost or free, but it is possible.

 

A few foundations exist solely to find healthcare for people - Cover Me Foundation and Coverage For All. In addition there are hundreds of charities and foundations whose purpose is to treat people with a specific condition. And just off the top of my head - Partnership for Presciption Assistance can help people who can't afford it, get the drugs they need.

 

And the problem of insuring preexisting conditions does have a market based solution called health status insurance. United Health Care already has a form of it called Continuity.

 

I firmly believe, and everything I have studied, convinces me that the more government and regulation gets out of the way, the better the coverage and the lower the cost. There are problems now precisely because there is so much interference in the market.

[Haiku]

It just isn't low cost or free, but it is possible.

 

 

I don't need free health care. I am fine with paying for it. What I want is something that doesn't cut my family out because of our health conditions and which doesn't cost us more than half of what my husband, who is college-educated and works in the advertising industry, earns in a year.

 

Last year my husband explored the possibility of leaving his company and starting his own business. I spent weeks on end researching health insurance options. I contacted every major insurance carrier in our state, and all of them declined us coverage because of health conditions in our family. Our state does not have a high-risk guaranteed pool. COBRA runs out after a certain amount of time. I met with an insurance broker, whose job, of course, is to make money off of me by selling me insurance. This man concluded that we had no options were we to give up our employer-sponsored health insurance. Yes, there are health-condition-specific programs to aid people, but that is not health insurance. It only helps with bills related to that condition. I wonder how many of the people who point out all these "options" have actually tried to access them.

 

It just seems to me that people who have insurance and no issues with it are perfectly content to relegate those who have no insurance or have issues with adequate coverage to the fringes and the hoop-jumping and just shrug their shoulders about it. It really saddens me that people going without adequate coverage or care is ok with people. It's a viewpoint I simply don't understand, and I guess there's not a lot of point in continuing to hash it out.

 

Tara