I need to talk about "Till We Have Faces"...

[PeterPan]

I hate to seem like a prude, but am I the only one who was blushing with this book? They undress the poor bride and leave her to a panting king, tell tales of immoral gods, have a king murder in cold blood, and compare the feeling of your first kill to losing virginity... The mere mention of the first two in euphemisms might have been ok or overlooked (plus the bed, oh we forgot the building of the boy-bearing bed), but that last one, that was the final straw.

 

Does this bother no one else??? How am I supposed to explain a comparison of the feelings after your first kill to the feelings of losing your virginity??? I just don't know. I'm wondering where VP's heads are on this one. Do 7th graders (who presumably haven't had as much, um, experience as we have in these matters) not read into this and see what's going on??? Is it really just a matter that to the pure all things are pure and they just gloss right over it? I don't know, I was shocked. C.S. Lewis has tons of stuff to chose from, didn't have to be this one. And this was written later in his life, not exactly pre-conversion. I don't know that I want to use this or that it really builds toward my goals. I don't know how a 7th grader would react to this, as my dd is two years from there. I was trying to pre-read and prepare, but instead I'm sort of flabbergasted. Clearly brilliant writing, but clearly a different standard on things. We watch only *G* movies in our house, not even PG. This wouldn't quite make the cut!

 

So there, anyone have any thoughts? Do kids doing O1 not see it the same way we do? For me, it was pretty vivid. Maybe kids gloss over all that though and just enjoy the plot? I mean it was brilliant and stunning, loved the end.

[MamaT]

We do not use Omnibus, but my kids that have read that book were 11th or 12th grade if I remember correctly. I think the wonderful message of "selfish love" versus "selfless love" is so wonderful in this book that I couldn't let them miss it. Like I said, they were older high schoolers - not 7th graders.

[LeeAnn Balbirona]

I am a huge Lewis fan but this is not my favorite Lewis novel and I would agree, 11-13 year olds are not the best audience for it. I wouldn't let my 11yo read it. I don't know what curriculum you are using (Veritas Press?) but I would question their judgment. It is one of Lewis' more difficult novels to understand and definitely contains very mature themes built on very ancient myths (Cupid and Psyche). I would skip it and substitute something else like "Out of the Silent Planet," also by Lewis.

[abbeyej]

>>>Do 7th graders (who presumably haven't had as much, um, experience as we have in these matters) not read into this and see what's going on???<<<

 

Well, lol, I read it as a young teen and don't remember any of that stuff. So maybe. ;) Now you have me very curious... I should re-read.

[Merry]

this book last spring which was well worth reading but, I would not recommend it for seventh graders. My sons had to struggle some to absorb the main message as it was and they were a bit uncomfortable with the more graphic scenes that you described. A book that is well written with a valuable insight in the human condition, yes, but it's for mature readers.

[Michelle in AL]

Hi Elizabeth, I taught this book last yr to 7-9th grade. I'm sorry but I don't remember any of those parts of the book with the exception of the gods. The younger kids did find the book a bit difficult to read, especially as it was their first book in the class. We did cover the life of C.S. Lewis heavily before reading this. The class realized his walk views on atheism and his obsession with mythology (especially norse). So we read this book with that in mind.

 

The older kids got a lot more out of it than the youngers.

 

The books that really shocked me were:

The Epic of Gilgamesh~there's a scene in there involving acts with a temple prostitute and a scene that appears he is a little too friendly with Enkidu. Yuck. But we read it to discuss how depraved societies can become. My kids had read similar or equally descriptive stories in the Bible that yr too.

 

I'm pretty sure some of Plutarch's Lives are edgy.

 

Those are the only ones that come to mind now. I guess Till We Have Faces didn't seem so bad compared to the others.

[newbie]

I wasnt happy w/that book either, but they changed her from O1 to 3, so now I have to deal w/1984. I just went through and censored half the book.

 

I am sorry, great book, but a lil too mature for my 13 yo dd.

[PeterPan]

I got a cleaner retelling of Gilgamesh (the Westwood version), so we're able to do that without those issues. For this, is it possible I could just black out particular lines? Is there something that would mark through them without bleeding through the page and destroying the other side? It was mainly that virginity line I thought was over the top. Oh and the murder. That I really didn't need. Just too jarring late at night, in the dark...

 

So any tips on marking out objectionable elements in books? In one of the books I preread (another version of Gilgamesh I think), I just used a post-it note and folded over the pages to skip. But here, we're talking lines, not whole pages.

[PeterPan]

Oh mercy, I haven't even thought what might happen with books in O3. I've never read 1984. What is the deal there? Presumably we're ok in O2? LOL

[newbie]

Yeah O2 looked good.

 

Lets just say Lewis, might have been able to sugar coat it w/pretty language, this one not so much. Nothing to imagination. Not graphic, explicit, but not good.

 

Now I have to check all the rest of her lit., I will be a busy camper til Sept.

[Kfamily]

Sorry, but I'm with you on this one OhElizabeth. My dd is a 7th grader this fall and I wouldn't let her read it if we were doing Omnibus. Maybe you could move it into the next rotation? If not then, then I really don't see why it couldn't be put off until college. I think my dd would get more from it then anyway.

[LeeAnn Balbirona]

"1984" has quite a lot of sexual content to it. OK for an older high schooler, 16+ I would think, but the emotions and disturbing imagery of the novel overall are probably too much for a less mature student. I just recently re-read it and was surprised I didn't remember most of it from junior year in h.s. though. Either I previously skimmed it or blocked it out! ;)

[kate in seattle]

ACK! Not 1984 if you the least bit, or even, not very, squeamish about things graphic and sexual. I am NOT very conservative and I would not use 1984 except with a MATURE 12th grader.

 

I love "Till We Have Faces" but never use it for less than 9th grade.

 

You will have stuff to look out for in O2 as well -

 

I don't have so much of a problem with gilgamesh. Presumably, most 7th-9th graders are cognizant of what happens in intercourse. I use the Sandars translation, which has phrases like "show him your bre*asts, give him your love" and "he lay upon her" which I don't think are over the top graphic (not compared to 1984!)

[dymphna57]

http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/16_cslewis-till-we-have-faces.htm

is a lecture about the book that I listened to recently and had to reread the book.

 

I think if you are uncomfortable about your child's ability to handle the material in a book, that is more important than how much of the book is read.

 

I guess I am one of the group who doesn't allow certain books or movies in our house. We also have age appropriate rules as I have young adults and small children together. My arguement is that childhood is to be enjoyed and has to protected.

 

All that said, I have reread books that I first read in jr high and boy did I miss stuff! Whooosh! Right over my head.

[MomsintheGarden]

My dd (16, going into 12th grade) is reading this book now. She really likes it, but agrees that it would definitely not be for a 7th grader. She was already familiar with the myth and has found TWHF an interesting retelling. I'd substitute a book such as Mere Christianity.

 

BTW, she read 1984 when she was 14 and it really disturbed her.

 

I believe the recommendations in the VP catalog often push the limits of age-appropriateness. Their philosophy seems to be "more, at a younger age."

 

GardenMom

[Chris in VA]

I'd skip it--in fact, we did.

I wish we had skipped parts of Suetonius' 12 Caesars, too--I always mention, to posters wanting to screen the book, the part where Herod is nibbling on little boys' parts as they swim. It certainly shows the utter decadence of the time, but I don't think it needs to be so graphic, as those images and descriptions stay with you a long time.

I truly think Omnibus can wait until 9th grade. I'm just not convinced that VP is doing right by their clientele by pushing GB's so early. But that's just mo.

[Brilliant]

My daughter will be reading this as part of Torrey Academy's Inklings course this year. But that course is designed for 15yo and up. (she's 16). I read it last spring (trying to read everything on the booklist) and think that my 13yo just wouldn't get much out of it. So I agree - this is more of a high school book than jr. high. Skip it for now. :)

[jayfromcleveland]

Lewis wrote some brilliant Christian apologetics and allegory, but he was professionally a professor and noted scholar of literature. He wrote a great deal of scholarly material, much of which is still cited today by other scholars in the field. So his total body of work was much broader in scope than just Narnia.

 

It should also be considered that Lewis was what he was -- a cigar-smoking, cognac-sipping Anglican of the early-to-mid 20th century, who happened to write some very timeless Christian writings. Though many of his works remain very popular today with 21st century American evangelical Christians, he was definitely not one himself.

[PeterPan]

You know, that's about what it boiled down to. C.S. Lewis just is a bit bawdier at heart (being a male, being of a less-than-conservative background despite his profession), so I'm really trying to weigh whether the benefit outweighs the objectionable elements. And what I was trying to ascertain is how much of those objectionable elements a young person might entirely miss. I actually think my dd would grapple with the concepts fine.

 

Well it's been interesting to hear everyone's experiences. I have some time here to continue reading the O1 books, think, and chart my course. Thanks for chatting!

[newbie]

On an off topic, if you are doing VP online, how well do the teachers' work w/you to take it off her reading list.

 

I know they have Omni 111 under 13 and over 13, so is that taking into consideration for reading assignments?

[Kirsten in MO]

This post caught my eye and I have read everyone's responses with great interest. I was looking through my VP catalog the other day and wondering about the appropriateness of their choices.

 

I just read 1984 about two months ago and I would not let my rising ninth grader read it. Most of their books seem way too deep for the level they assign them. I guess it would seem nice to say my seventh grader had read Plutarch's Lives, but I know he wouldn't get anything out it. What's the point in having them read a book that is too mature for them?

 

Does anyone use Omnibus I just the way it is laid out? Seems like a lot for 7th graders.

 

Just thought I would add my two cents1

 

~Kirsten

[Michelle in MO]

Hi Kirsten!

 

We definitely adapted Omnibus I to our own needs. The girls did read Till We Have Faces, but it was a little deep for the middle girl. We skipped Suetonius's The Twelve Caesars and some other works, simply because we ran out of time.

 

We enjoyed Omnibus II for a variety of reasons, and it was a much better year in terms of their understanding, their ability to discuss the material, their writing, test-taking---everything. In other words, it took me about a year to figure out how to use Omnibus for our needs!

[Kim in Appalachia]

I guess my dd and I just glossed over some of that.:blush:

 

I thought the book was amazing, and even bought it as a gift for family members for Christmas.

 

I will say, that if you're having trouble with that book, you will not like most of the books for year 1. There is some very explicit stuff in those books.

[imeverywoman]

Yes, this is a rhetorical question... What the heck am I going to do now? This is definitely not my cuppa, and I'm not interested in introducing these themes to my rising 9th grader.

 

Oh, cr*apola!!!

[PeterPan]

Yes, this is a rhetorical question... What the heck am I going to do now? This is definitely not my cuppa, and I'm not interested in introducing these themes to my rising 9th grader.

 

Oh, cr*apola!!!

 

You really want to read the books for yourself and decide. I'm known for being overly dramatic and making a bigger deal of things than they really are. In other words, we're talking *lines* in the books, not whole pages or chapters. They're not incredibly explicit either. It's just C.S. Lewis has this particular way of being incisive or descriptive with just a few words, really getting those thoughts across. As you see from the threads, other people read this book and had NO trouble with it. I may have an over-active imagination. :D

 

The Detweilers of VP have stated in some of their talks that one of their goals definitely is to up the bar on academics, doing high school and college level work earlier. Whether this is practical, I don't know. I don't think my dd will have any trouble understanding the book or it's themes, as interpersonal things are a strength for her. I'm prereading to see if she SHOULD read them or not, whether they fit with our values and goals. And I think what I'm going to do is read everything, all the O1 and 3 books, then go back and filter through them, seeing what I think when I understand it as a whole. I also forsee more black markers and post-it notes in our future. ;)

[newbie]

You really want to read the books for yourself and decide. I'm known for being overly dramatic and making a bigger deal of things than they really are. In other words, we're talking *lines* in the books, not whole pages or chapters. They're not incredibly explicit either. It's just C.S. Lewis has this particular way of being incisive or descriptive with just a few words, really getting those thoughts across. As you see from the threads, other people read this book and had NO trouble with it. I may have an over-active imagination. :D

 

The Detweilers of VP have stated in some of their talks that one of their goals definitely is to up the bar on academics, doing high school and college level work earlier. Whether this is practical, I don't know. I don't think my dd will have any trouble understanding the book or it's themes, as interpersonal things are a strength for her. I'm prereading to see if she SHOULD read them or not, whether they fit with our values and goals. And I think what I'm going to do is read everything, all the O1 and 3 books, then go back and filter through them, seeing what I think when I understand it as a whole. I also forsee more black markers and post-it notes in our future. ;)

 

Lol on the black markers. Definitely have them handy, I think I ran out of ink on my black pen for 1984, it was tough doing paragraphs.

[Mommyfaithe]

I'd skip it--in fact, we did.

I wish we had skipped parts of Suetonius' 12 Caesars, too--I always mention, to posters wanting to screen the book, the part where Herod is nibbling on little boys' parts as they swim. It certainly shows the utter decadence of the time, but I don't think it needs to be so graphic, as those images and descriptions stay with you a long time.

I truly think Omnibus can wait until 9th grade. I'm just not convinced that VP is doing right by their clientele by pushing GB's so early. But that's just mo.

 

:iagree: :iagree: I whole-heartedly agree...

 

I have found way too much questionable...or out-right...what the heck is this doing in a little kids book list...to suit my tastes. I even called them up about one book listed in the 3rd grade reading list on Althaneus..which included a graphic description of homosexuality:confused:...on a 3rd grade list????????????????? The person who answered the phone acted like I was a nut. OK??....

 

I have really enjoyed many of VP's materials...but after going through O1-3 with my ds...well I am sorry...too much, too soon...really not necessary...never again.

 

~~Faithe

[PeterPan]

Faithe, I'll tell you, your comments really resonated with me. Of course it was very late last night when I read them, and my keyboard, for some bizarre reason, was typing everything BACKWARDS, meaning I couldn't respond! But I thought and thought about it, and for me the disconnect is that I'm not sure Omnibus is communicating my *heart* or what I love. I like the way Omnibus is set up, and I think I could be very happy using select books from it. But to have it become the entirety of our junior high and high school sequence, I'm just not sure it creates the spiritual, soul/heart-nurturing effect I want. But maybe the secondary books are what balance it out and create that? Maybe that's why I've seen posts with people doing largely the secondary sources and skipping the primary?? ;)

 

And yes, that would horrify me if I did O1-3 with her and then realized it hadn't at all met our goals!!! That's why I'm prereading now, because I'm just not sure. When you do VP stuff (elementary), there's sort of this pressure to do it a certain way (do the worksheets, drill the facts, do this or else) and the implication that if you DON'T do it that way, you're not doing it right or well enough. That's really frustrating to me, because, if I disconnected myself from that pressure, I'd have a very different approach or philosophy. Yet I've locked myself into that mindset and allowed myself to be pressured by it in the name of preparing for the great Omnibus.

 

Now I think some people, people who know more history than I, can take VP's lower sequence and bring lots of heart into it. I'm distinctly not a history person. And I think some people can do amazing things with Omnibus. I'm just wondering if maybe my take has to be a bit different, because my focus is the heart and because I need a bit more help to communicate the viewpoint I want. (providential, looking for God's hand in history, etc.) That would be really hard for me to bring to light using Omnibus plus Spielvogel, unless those additional resources in the VP catalog spell it out, don't know.

 

So there's a rambling for you! In any event, I appreciate your candor! It is definitely giving me something to think about. Do you think you might come back to Omnibus in a year and use it a different way? In retrospect, do you think using it a different way, more selectively, etc. might have helped?

[dcwest40]

http://cslewis.drzeus.net/papers/gulf.html

[Mommyfaithe]

Faithe, I'll tell you, your comments really resonated with me. Of course it was very late last night when I read them, and my keyboard, for some bizarre reason, was typing everything BACKWARDS, meaning I couldn't respond! But I thought and thought about it, and for me the disconnect is that I'm not sure Omnibus is communicating my *heart* or what I love. I like the way Omnibus is set up, and I think I could be very happy using select books from it. But to have it become the entirety of our junior high and high school sequence, I'm just not sure it creates the spiritual, soul/heart-nurturing effect I want. But maybe the secondary books are what balance it out and create that? Maybe that's why I've seen posts with people doing largely the secondary sources and skipping the primary?? ;)

 

And yes, that would horrify me if I did O1-3 with her and then realized it hadn't at all met our goals!!! That's why I'm prereading now, because I'm just not sure. When you do VP stuff (elementary), there's sort of this pressure to do it a certain way (do the worksheets, drill the facts, do this or else) and the implication that if you DON'T do it that way, you're not doing it right or well enough. That's really frustrating to me, because, if I disconnected myself from that pressure, I'd have a very different approach or philosophy. Yet I've locked myself into that mindset and allowed myself to be pressured by it in the name of preparing for the great Omnibus.

 

Now I think some people, people who know more history than I, can take VP's lower sequence and bring lots of heart into it. I'm distinctly not a history person. And I think some people can do amazing things with Omnibus. I'm just wondering if maybe my take has to be a bit different, because my focus is the heart and because I need a bit more help to communicate the viewpoint I want. (providential, looking for God's hand in history, etc.) That would be really hard for me to bring to light using Omnibus plus Spielvogel, unless those additional resources in the VP catalog spell it out, don't know.

 

So there's a rambling for you! In any event, I appreciate your candor! It is definitely giving me something to think about. Do you think you might come back to Omnibus in a year and use it a different way? In retrospect, do you think using it a different way, more selectively, etc. might have helped?

 

OK..here's what I think...YMMV...and remember...I am probably going to be a bit rambly here...so here goes...

 

I think any curriculum could be used by an experienced teacher to reach a child's heart. However, I am a Mom first and not a very experienced teacher except for my own kids.l...and we get no re-plays there, so we must be completely diligent to listen to our gut and follow the Spirit of God even if "everyone else" says it will be ok. I listened to that voice and I regret it...I should have dug my heals in and realized that I could provide my son an excellent Great Books introduction without including books whuich could damage his spirit when he is so young. I don't think waiting until the later years of High School is too late to submerse children into adult literature. There are so many books and only so much time...so where do decide to draw the line?? Does my 14 year old really need to read 1984, The Communist Manifesto, Mein Kamph...etc?? Does he really need to grapple with such deep issues?? Am I willing and able to talk him through these books...pointing out what Jesus would have us do in certain situations or with certain ideas?? Will i REALLY know what is upsetting him about the book he is reading?? Now, mind you, we are a chatty family...we read tons of books...we talk about books...we talk politics, sex, intrigue...we talk about EVERYTHING.....but somehow introducing topics before my children are mature enough to deal with certain issues somehow goes against the entire reason we homeschool, which is to provide an education that is suited for each individual child and guide them emotionally, spiritually and physically into adulthood.

 

Now, I am not very impressed with VP's position that children should be introduced to the Great books younger and Younger...I am also not happy that I was led to feel somehow inferior if I questioned the rationale of using totally adult material with young teens (7th grade 12 & 13 year olds....not 16 or 17 y/o's) or if I used their elementary program differently than intended.... VP's stance is that homeschoolers are behind their peers and unless we copy what is done in VP's schools, our children will not be able to compete for places at the most prestigious colleges. I bought that...hook ...line...and sinker....and now after 3 years of Omnibus...and one year through Scholars Academy (VP's online school) I realized I should have went with my gut...

 

As far as VP's online school, my son had Bruce Etter as his teacher...This guy was AWESOME!!! He was wonderful and led many thoughtful discussions and debates with the kids. He had them thinking and responding. That said...I think Bruce Etter could make any class interesting. he could speak on advanced basket weaving and we'd be glued. I think he is a wonderful teacher and my son was blessed by being in his class all year.

BUT, we will not be continuing with Omnibus or VP. And after reading some of VP's articles, I am truly seeing that our foundational goals are not matched. Now, I have used VP elemntary programs through grade 6 and Omnibus 1-3...and although I still believe their materials are useful, I no longer feel they are superior...no matter WHAT VP says to the contrary. I could have done just as well...and as a matter of fact I have...and will continue to do just fine using materials in a way I see fits my childrens needs. No one can tell me I can't use their cards in 9th grade if I see it useful and helpful.

 

 

After much soul searching and praying...I need to follow my heart....I need to get back to the real reason we homeschool...not try to be the "Best Homeschool Mom of the Year" or have kids that resent me for pushing them so hard that they can't wait to go to college because the workload will be easier :001_huh: I think as homeschoolers and Christians...we need to be careful what our goals are...and how we approach those goals. I think we need to be very careful not to make education an idol and worship it. I think we sometimes need to put in ear plugs...stop reading about all the wonderful things everyone else is doing...and focus on what we really want to accomplish.

 

For me I want my children to grow into mature God-fearing loving, generous, thoughtful, happy , well-educated adults who are fully equipped to handle anything life throws their way and are able to fulfill the purpose that the Lord has had for them since the beginning of time. Small order huh???LOL

 

In order to fulfill those goals, my curriculum might look a bit weird...and we may do things very differently from child to child...BUT I will never go against my gut instict again. God gave me these children and I believe he enables me to do the things he has called me to do...which includes educating them...and having a good relationship with them.

 

Omnibus is not the only (or the best) Great Books curricula out there...I think I may have done even better on my own with sparknotes from the WTM list....had I given myself the benefit of believing I could.....

Smarr has a GB program which is Christian...

Scholars Online

Great Books Academy

Cornerstone Curriculum

etc.

Ambleside Online has such wonderful character building books....and their curr. is free. Even if you use it in a more classical than CM style....

 

I am sorry this is so long and rambly...I guess what I really wanted to say is that education is not a sporting event where we all compete for the first place ribbon....It is a life time endeavor that should be approached carefully and methodically...builing line upon line and precept on precept. It is easy to let go of the real goal and focus on the temporal...and get nervous and totally stressed out that we need to compete with the public schools and private schools and other super-homeschoolers--and our siblings kids and the other swim team kids etc......BUT really...our goal is to bring light into a dark place...and keep that light lit...so it can go out and spread some more light...

 

Peace....

Faithe

[Mommyfaithe]

Yes, this is a rhetorical question... What the heck am I going to do now? This is definitely not my cuppa, and I'm not interested in introducing these themes to my rising 9th grader.

 

Oh, cr*apola!!!

 

You will skip any book you feel is not right for your child and fill in with a book you really want him (or her) to read...Oh there are so many good and Great Books...no need to feel bad tossing one or two or twenty out the window...

~~Faithe

[Anna]

My girls didn't read "Til We Have Faces" until high school.. I forget which grade.

[Julie in CA]

Is there something that would mark through them without bleeding through the page and destroying the other side?

Yes, White out or Liquid Paper! :)

[PeterPan]

Thanks Julie, don't know why I didn't think of that!!!! :)

[74Heaven]

I avoided many books because of content or 'godliness' of content and I actually kind of regret it. I think that my reluctance to press on with some titles ended up weakening my dtr's maturity and reasoning skills. I avoided good books with bad language or infidelity or premarital anything - I avoided books with adult topics that were too irreligious. I thought topics would be over her head or too mature and this we avoided them. [Two examples are All Quiet on the Western Front and West Side Story - there are more examples, they are just not coming to mind...] Instead, if I could to it over, we would start the discussions on some of these topics much sooner - more often and more gradually.

 

Dtr is going into 12th grade and I now think that we should have read more ''adult'' level books and waded through some of the ''tougher'' subjects in order to better help her with her reasoning and thinking skills. This is a weak area for this student and even as we waded through the SAT practice essay prompts I saw that she wasn't able to digest and work through several 'real world' ideas and cultural mores because we hadn't waded through enough scenarios and had enough discussions.

 

It is --not-- that we skipped titles because of dtr's reading level or even her understanding - it was my goal to choose more uplifting and edifying books instead of those books of questionable subject matter from the great booklists. But, I would have chose edgier titles if I had realized how soon dtr went from 7th grade to 12th grade, KWIM...

 

Our misstep probably doesn't apply to many of you as you will pick and choose the books and subjects that will introduce some of these themes.

 

I would just caution you to recognize something I did not - that reading about subjects, themes, topics and problems that are above the age or maturity level that the child is currently at - that reading 'harder and more adult' themed-literature will actually help the child to start to form their worldview and higher level thinking skills.

 

I can not speak exactly to the books being mentioned here - but overall, we delayed at each level. Just now, we are reading books that some curriculums would introduce at junior high level. And I think this was because I didn't realize that some of these more ''mature'' level topics would help dtr to advance her maturity and appreciation of literary themes and their life applications.

 

Just a few thoughts,

Lisaj, mom to 5, ages 17, almost 15, 12,9,6

[Michelle in AL]

:iagree: Hey Lisa, I think you have a good point. Last yr, when I taught OM1 I had a 7th grade and 9th grade dd. Both are pretty serious, mature girls, but having grown up through my own teen yrs with many experiences I shouldn't have had, I wanted to talk to them about issues they might face while they're still at home.

 

I use movies, books, real life experiences to talk about drugs, boys, alcohol or whatever. There were some pretty awkward situations in Screwtape Letters too that I had to teach in my co-op class. I thought some parents might object, so I warned them, but all were fine with it.

 

I think a lot of teens know more than we think they know. They may hear rumors of adultery within extended families or know of family members with addiction issues. Reading through these things and discussing them can really help them to deal with how they feel about these issues. It also helps I hope to define their mores and see how a character was lead to sin.

 

Now, everyone's child might not be ready for that at 13. There are some books I crossed off in OM list like the 12 Ceasars.

[PeterPan]

Lisa, I appreciate your taking the time to reply to this, and your comments are thought-provoking to me. One of the difficulties with raising an only (or now almost an only, with them 9 1/2 years apart), is that you tend to see them young, wistfully keeping them little and holding on; there is no contrast of the next one coming up to make them appear older. My dd did age 5 years after the baby was born, haha, but I still probably don't see her as I should. In fact, she pretty much says that to me here and there, lol. So if I take your comments in that light, I can see where it would definitely be good to ramp up the level of thought, discussion, and mature controversy, rather than sheltering her the way you would a K5er.

 

I had an interesting talk with a friend from college this weekend. She happens to be teaching 11th grade english, so we gabbed around requirements, what the ps's are doing, methods, etc. She said as far as censorship, she always found the censoring made the objectionable elements MORE provocative and enticing than they would have been if they had been simply left alone, go figure. And I guess, combining your thoughts with hers, it strikes me that the core of the question is whether these books are SO unskippable and valuable as to make them worth overlooking the objectionable elements. Such a calculation!

 

Well thanks for the thoughts. I'll definitely keep them in mind. :)

[cajun.classical]

There were some pretty awkward situations in Screwtape Letters too that I had to teach in my co-op class. I thought some parents might object, so I warned them, but all were fine with it.

 

 

Michelle,

 

We are doing Omni I this coming school year. What were the awkward parts of Screwtape? I read it years ago in junior high, I think, and I don't remember anything like that. Please refresh me before I jump in there with a couple of teenage boys.

 

Thanks.

[Mommyfaithe]

Hi All.....I think my biggest issue was not to BAN or CENSOR any books, but to introduce Great Books at the right time. Just like my ds's are not ready to tackle Redwall or Tolkein at 7...while some children may be.....Seventh grade is not a magic bullet time (12 years old??) to tackle sexually mature themes. Now, some children may be able to handle that. My son was more upset by violent and downright depressing themes. I do not feel they matured him...just upset his balance. Will he come out better for it?? Time will tell. Was it worth the gamble? NO.

 

I think as homeschoolers we have an opportunity to introduce hard themes and difficult books at the right time. we have to be sensitive to that time.

 

Now, just for the record...I have homeschooled and graduated 3 children before this ds...so I am not a novice. We have used a Great Books approach to high school with all 3...and will continue with my next 4. My older 3 are voracious students ...straight A college students and read the Odyssey for fun, so I guess they have a love for reading , and for books. Obviously I do not choose their books, BUT they are constantly coming to me for suggestions...or with a book in hand "MOM! You gotta read this!."

Somehow with ds #2 I felt the need to "buckle down." I think I got nervous after reading a VP article on how behind homeschoolers were that was put out by VP. It ticked me off...it made me angry...but it also unnerved me. Looking back, I think that was the point of the article. To unnerve us in a presciption for success...hs success...VP.

 

 

Anyway, I just want to reassure you once again, to follow your gut. If you need to take a black marker or whit out to a book to make it comfortable for you to teach....teach a different book. There are SO MANY fantastic books...great books....choose another book. It is OK. You can assign Til We Have Faces in 11th or 12th grade. If you want to read Lewis in the earlier grades choose The Space Trilogy or Screwtape. That introduces Lewis past Narnia and opens the door to his Apologetic writings.

 

Read a "children's" versios of Plutarch...still very difficult for a 7th grader and then again in 11th or 12th.

 

The goal is really to produce readers and thinkers. Our children will continue to read and love books their entire lives. We do not need to cram an entire adult education into a 12 or 13 year old.

 

Sorry to ramble on...i just feel the need to encourage you and warn you not to fall into the crazy trap I fell into.

 

HTH

Faithe

[PeterPan]

Faithe, if you must know, I had swung so far in my mind after reading your initial posts that I was thinking all missionary biographies, "worthwhile" stuff, all uplifting, and nothing contrarian at all. So then Lisa's point counteracted that, reminding us that we want them to hit these things in OUR homes, not outside. Point well taken. And you round it out with the thought that it's the right book at the right TIME. And you know, that's the other thing my friend said while we were chatting (my 11th gr english teacher friend from college). That's something I can't really gauge going into it, kwim? That's where VP seems to make it so easy, because they would have figured out the generally right time, right? That had been my assumption. :(

 

Well I really appreciate all this banter, because I think as we go back and forth about this, with ALL the viewpoints, it's starting to make more sense.

 

So how did you do GB with your older 3?

[Michelle in AL]

What were the awkward parts of Screwtape?

 

Now, you must know that while I try to be open to my kids, I'm also a bit prudish. The awkward part referred to a chapter or two where the devils discuss s*xual temptation as a means to trip up the patient. It was mild, and perhaps pertinent to the age group I was teaching (7-9th grade) with their crushes and all.

[PeterPan]

Was that section in Screwtape unnecessarily explicit, or was it just the mention of it that made you uncomfortable? For those ages, absolutely I'd want to talk about temptation and realities, mercy. I went to a ps where kids were pregnant at that age!

[Michelle in AL]

Hi Elizabeth, nothing explicit that I remember, just a general conversation on what kind of girl could bring out more temptations. I just remembered how awkward I felt at that age talking about such things to my mom. I don't mind talking to my kids about it, but other people's kids was a little :001_huh:

[8filltheheart]

Hi Elizabeth,

 

I have been having a serious debate with myself the last couple of months over my educational philosophy/goals. Where does classical ed fit into my overall objectives and where do the classics fit into my definition of classical.

 

This conversation struck a chord with me b/c it highlights part of my self-debate. It also resonates with parts of Augustine's Confessions. I'll paste the section here (sorry for the older English but I am too lazy to type in the whole section from my more modern translation.)

But woe unto you, O torrent of human custom! Who shall

stay your course? When will you ever run dry? How long will you

carry down the sons of Eve into that vast and hideous ocean, which

even those who have the Tree (for an ark)[29] can scarcely pass

over? Do I not read in you the stories of Jove the thunderer --

and the adulterer?[30] How could he be both? But so it says, and

the sham thunder served as a cloak for him to play at real

adultery. Yet which of our gowned masters will give a tempered

hearing to a man trained in their own schools who cries out and

says: "These were Homer's fictions; he transfers things human to

the gods. I could have wished that he would transfer divine

things to us."[31] But it would have been more true if he said,

"These are, indeed, his fictions, but he attributed divine

attributes to sinful men, that crimes might not be accounted

crimes, and that whoever committed such crimes might appear to

imitate the celestial gods and not abandoned men."

 

26. And yet, O torrent of hell, the sons of men are still

cast into you, and they pay fees for learning all these things.

And much is made of it when this goes on in the forum under the

auspices of laws which give a salary over and above the fees. And

you beat against your rocky shore and roar: "Here words may be

learned; here you can attain the eloquence which is so necessary

to persuade people to your way of thinking; so helpful in

unfolding your opinions." Verily, they seem to argue that we

should never have understood these words, "golden shower,"

"bosom," "intrigue," "highest heavens," and other such words, if

Terence had not introduced a good-for-nothing youth upon the

stage, setting up a picture of Jove as his example of lewdness and

telling the tale.....

 

These words are not learned one whit more easily because of

this vileness, but through them the vileness is more boldly

perpetrated.

 

Now to be clear, Augustine does hold the classics in high esteem and affirms their educational value. However, how(clarifying the moral issues)/when(age.....is high school the appropriate time)......these are the questions/discussions I am having with myself!

[Orthodox6]

I never have read this book. Thank you for sharing sufficient details that I know never to bother with it.

[laughing lioness]

I am very sorry to hear that so many people don't like Till We Have Faces or feel that they need to avoid it. It is possibly my very favorite book. The themes are rich and powerful. We read it outloud to our 3 oldest when they were 14, 9, 5 and have had fabulous discussion and interaction as a result of reading the book. It has surprised me the different times since that they've referred back to it. Beforehand we had read a version of Cupid and Psyche.

We have also read the Bible out loud to our kids for years. As a result they were already used to very graphic human behavior. There is, after all, nothing new under the sun. We are very open to talking about sex in our home.

[Julie in PA]

I just wantd to chime in here with my two cents for what it is worth. Being married to a man who has written articles for Omnibus and teaches it, some would think we would push our kids to start as early as possible. The truth is we take the approach of several others here. Our children will simply start it when they are ready. My oldest will not start when he is 12. The next will. I am not sure about the others yet. I am sure there will also be things my husband leaves out.There are two things we know 1. After working with teenagers for 16 years (always in a Christian environment) the majority of the time kids know more than we think they know. Not always, but very often. They will discover all of this and for our children we want them to discover it with us, or someone we have entrusted to teach them with very close oversight from us, when each one is ready. 2. There is a fine line when censoring things. As someone else has pointed out, when kids know things are being censored they want even more to know what it is about. When my husband sends out his letter to parents and then they get a book that has been blacked out or pages ripped out or told they are skipping that book, his email box is flooded with students saying, "Hey Mr.Etter, what's this all about?" We will and do censor things for our children, but are careful in how it is done. It is important to remember that every curriculum provider is offering suggestions and opinion. None of it is law and no one is perfect. I talk to people everyday and help them adjust VP materials to meet their individual needs. For some that is backing up a little and for others it is actually moving ahead. I have had to make adjustments for my son at the suggestion of Laurie Detweiler. Some parents want to start their kids early in Omni. For the online school 12 is open and shut/no questions asked, the policy, none can start earlier. Parents get upset about it and leave the program. Some parents read the books and say no way, others can't say enough about how life changing the curriculum has been. It has helped them and their students strengthen their faith and their ability to defend their faith. I just wanted to encourage you all that God has entrusted you to do something difficult and He will guide you through. The way one person does it may be 100% correct for them and 100% wrong for others.

[Mommyfaithe]

I just wantd to chime in here with my two cents for what it is worth. Being married to a man who has written articles for Omnibus and teaches it, some would think we would push our kids to start as early as possible. The truth is we take the approach of several others here. Our children will simply start it when they are ready. My oldest will not start when he is 12. The next will. I am not sure about the others yet. I am sure there will also be things my husband leaves out.There are two things we know 1. After working with teenagers for 16 years (always in a Christian environment) the majority of the time kids know more than we think they know. Not always, but very often. They will discover all of this and for our children we want them to discover it with us, or someone we have entrusted to teach them with very close oversight from us, when each one is ready. 2. There is a fine line when censoring things. As someone else has pointed out, when kids know things are being censored they want even more to know what it is about. When my husband sends out his letter to parents and then they get a book that has been blacked out or pages ripped out or told they are skipping that book, his email box is flooded with students saying, "Hey Mr.Etter, what's this all about?" We will and do censor things for our children, but are careful in how it is done. It is important to remember that every curriculum provider is offering suggestions and opinion. None of it is law and no one is perfect. I talk to people everyday and help them adjust VP materials to meet their individual needs. For some that is backing up a little and for others it is actually moving ahead. I have had to make adjustments for my son at the suggestion of Laurie Detweiler. Some parents want to start their kids early in Omni. For the online school 12 is open and shut/no questions asked, the policy, none can start earlier. Parents get upset about it and leave the program. Some parents read the books and say no way, others can't say enough about how life changing the curriculum has been. It has helped them and their students strengthen their faith and their ability to defend their faith. I just wanted to encourage you all that God has entrusted you to do something difficult and He will guide you through. The way one person does it may be 100% correct for them and 100% wrong for others.

 

Julie...I just wanted to say again that your husband is one of the best teachers we have "met" EVER! He was absolutely wonderful in handling some very difficult and mature themes. Carl and I both LOVED his class....I think that Carl is a very sensitive kid and he is a deep thinker...and I should have waited another year or two before doing Omnibus with him. I let my pride go before my senses. Hard lesson to learn...sigh....

 

~~Faithe

[MamaT]

I am very sorry to hear that so many people don't like Till We Have Faces or feel that they need to avoid it. It is possibly my very favorite book. The themes are rich and powerful. We read it outloud to our 3 oldest when they were 14, 9, 5 and have had fabulous discussion and interaction as a result of reading the book. It has surprised me the different times since that they've referred back to it. Beforehand we had read a version of Cupid and Psyche.

We have also read the Bible out loud to our kids for years. As a result they were already used to very graphic human behavior. There is, after all, nothing new under the sun. We are very open to talking about sex in our home.

 

:iagree: It is also one of my favorite books of all time. My 23yo and 21yo have both re-read it as adults. I have had many, many wonderful discussions with my sons sparked by this book.

[newbie]

I just wantd to chime in here with my two cents for what it is worth. Being married to a man who has written articles for Omnibus and teaches it, some would think we would push our kids to start as early as possible. The truth is we take the approach of several others here. Our children will simply start it when they are ready. My oldest will not start when he is 12. The next will. I am not sure about the others yet. I am sure there will also be things my husband leaves out.There are two things we know 1. After working with teenagers for 16 years (always in a Christian environment) the majority of the time kids know more than we think they know. Not always, but very often. They will discover all of this and for our children we want them to discover it with us, or someone we have entrusted to teach them with very close oversight from us, when each one is ready. 2. There is a fine line when censoring things. As someone else has pointed out, when kids know things are being censored they want even more to know what it is about. When my husband sends out his letter to parents and then they get a book that has been blacked out or pages ripped out or told they are skipping that book, his email box is flooded with students saying, "Hey Mr.Etter, what's this all about?" We will and do censor things for our children, but are careful in how it is done. It is important to remember that every curriculum provider is offering suggestions and opinion. None of it is law and no one is perfect. I talk to people everyday and help them adjust VP materials to meet their individual needs. For some that is backing up a little and for others it is actually moving ahead. I have had to make adjustments for my son at the suggestion of Laurie Detweiler. Some parents want to start their kids early in Omni. For the online school 12 is open and shut/no questions asked, the policy, none can start earlier. Parents get upset about it and leave the program. Some parents read the books and say no way, others can't say enough about how life changing the curriculum has been. It has helped them and their students strengthen their faith and their ability to defend their faith. I just wanted to encourage you all that God has entrusted you to do something difficult and He will guide you through. The way one person does it may be 100% correct for them and 100% wrong for others.

 

Hi Julie,

I appreciate your post and am a newbie to VP fulltime this yr w/ a 13 yo. I think these classics are a beautiful thing, but some better than others. My dd took a Logic class in summer to get a feel for the school and fell in love. Which means we continue in the fall.

 

Some of the content is very strong in 1984, how is this handled, are the teachers willing to work w/parent, do they give exemptions for material parent thinks is not suitable.

 

I havent went over all the books for Omni III, but 1984 is my main concern.

 

Thanks for input.