I need to talk about "Till We Have Faces"...

[Julie in PA]

Hi Julie,

I appreciate your post and am a newbie to VP fulltime this yr w/ a 13 yo. I think these classics are a beautiful thing, but some better than others. My dd took a Logic class in summer to get a feel for the school and fell in love. Which means we continue in the fall.

 

Some of the content is very strong in 1984, how is this handled, are the teachers willing to work w/parent, do they give exemptions for material parent thinks is not suitable.

 

I havent went over all the books for Omni III, but 1984 is my main concern.

 

Thanks for input.

 

 

I always debate on posting anything. That is why you will notice my posts are almost always towards the end of a thread.:001_smile: I am in this weird place of being a home-school mom and needing encouragement and then being married to someone who is in the middle of it all.

 

I am glad your daughter is enjoying the class. Those summer classes can be brutal!

 

As for the reading, his view and one that he asks his teachers to respect is, that the parents are the ultimate earthly authority and if you tell him you do not want your child reading it, it is fine with him. At the end of each quarter the students have to turn in the percentage of what they read. He does ask that they take it off it they did not read it, but it is a very minimal part of their grade and very seldom does it even cause the final grade to go down. He is always availableto talk these matters through.

 

I am considering starting a yahoo group for VP Scholars. There are so many parents with these questons.

[Mommyfaithe]

Faithe, if you must know, I had swung so far in my mind after reading your initial posts that I was thinking all missionary biographies, "worthwhile" stuff, all uplifting, and nothing contrarian at all. So then Lisa's point counteracted that, reminding us that we want them to hit these things in OUR homes, not outside. Point well taken. And you round it out with the thought that it's the right book at the right TIME. And you know, that's the other thing my friend said while we were chatting (my 11th gr english teacher friend from college). That's something I can't really gauge going into it, kwim? That's where VP seems to make it so easy, because they would have figured out the generally right time, right? That had been my assumption. :(

 

Well I really appreciate all this banter, because I think as we go back and forth about this, with ALL the viewpoints, it's starting to make more sense.

 

So how did you do GB with your older 3?

 

Oh No!! Please do not give up on Great books!! You have such an advantage in that you have a course in mind and your dd is still young. Let her see you grappling with a book...learning from it... arguing with it...agreeing..loving...hating...throwing it across the room and then picking it up...dusting it off and trying again. Those are good things. Those are the things that make a book ALIVE.

 

I approached the Great Books with fear and trepidition the first time. I had a lousy education as far as school went, even though I received straight A's...sigh. I found the WTM in 1999 and I had also discoved Parents Union Online in 98 (which is now Ambleside Online.) My oldest child was 12. She was a voracious reader and I had already given her every book I could think of to give her. I decided to try this Great Books thing.

So, we picked the Odyssey and we read it aloud to eachother. My younger kids were fascinated. I pre-read many books...some I tossed...some I put aside for later...some we covered. I read a lot. I took out cliff notes from the library. I found online guides. I researched. She researched. We folded in dd 2 and then Ds # 1. We read aloud and listened to books on tape while we did dishes or folded laundry or when we were in the car going to swim meets. We talk books. We live books.

Some books are easy to love. Some are easy to hate.

 

Ambleside Online seems to be the one consistent source for me. The books do contain adult or mature material in the older levels. I feel that once the kids get to that point, they have been able to handle the material.

 

VP has been a wonderful resource too. I think many people think because a book is listed with the third grade literature that it is appropriate to hand over to a third grader. This isn't the case at all. I think they include many of the books for parents or homeschool families that are teaching multi-level. It is confusing if you don't realize that. As far as Omnibus goes...you don't have to throw out the baby with the bath water. Pick and choose the books you want to read and skip the others. Come back to them later when your child is ready or after you have had time to grapple with the book yourself. Omnibus is not a hand it to your kid and forget it curriculum. It does make studying some books easier and the articles are wonderful...BUT, you still have to know what you are giving to the children. I think that is where I failed Carl. I didn't realize HOW some of the books were affecting him. Maybe he is just at a funky age...Maybe I am at a funky age...I didn't engage myself as I should have with the books he was reading. I tried to stay on top of the class, but it moved FAST! I put that into someone else's lap...and that was not the right thing for me to do. He learned a lot and there were many books that were just fine. There were ones I had already covered with my olders such as Autobiography of Ben Franklin, Uncle Tom's Cabin, Frankenstien, Lincoln's speeches etc. I don't think Mein Kampf or the Communist Manifesto was necessary in 9th grade, but that is my opinion and if I was doing the class with just my child, those books might have been mentioned with maybe a short synopsis so they would be familiar that there was such a book...and we would have moved on. The 20th century is difficult to study without getting morbid and depressing.

 

Don't worry completely about the timing. You will know when a book is "right" if you stay connected with your dd. I think that was another prob;lem I had. I got a little disconnected from Carl as I worked to bring my younger kids up to grade level and into the fold of our homeschool. It was a rough year for us...

Anyway, I pre-read many of the books I want my children to study mainly to give me a good handle on the material, so when we read it through a second time, I can study it a bit deeper than the children. They know I have pre-read many of the books not with an intent to censor or ban, but with the intent to learn the book and be comfortable enough with it that I can teach or explain or counsel ideas. Kids get some weird ideas from books. I don't think there are really "bad" books, but there are books that can be misunderstood or wrong digestion of the ideas can lead to confusion. A book read at the wrong time may not touch that child's spirit in the right way. They may just slough it off and say it stunk..or become sullen and distressed. (Which seemed to happen with Carl.) Very intelligent people can have very wrong ideas. Here is where the conversation and counsel and Biblical Worlview comes in.

 

Unfortunately, it isn't "easy." However, it is gratifying and exciting and wonderful to tackle a book you thought was too hard to understand and come out the other end better educated and more confident in your own ability to teach and learn.

 

Luckily, you are in a great place. Your daughter is still young enough that you can get a great head start. Chuck Til We Have Faces...or save it for later...maybe much later...like when your dd is married and needs a book to read during her lunch break. LOL It really happens :-)

 

Start with the Rhetoric section of the WTM or the books from VP Omnibus. Read and make notes. Remind yourself why you loved or hated the book. Be sure to read it again...and then again with your daughter. Great books need to be absorbed over time. Ideas need time to grow and mature. The conversation lasts a lifetime. Don't panic. Your dd is doing great...and she has a really great Mom!!

And when all else fails, you can always post here and listen to me babble on and on...:tongue_smilie:

 

I think you are on a great track with your daughter and I know it is easy to lose the forest for the trees. Keep your eyes on your goals and then take one small step at a time. It will come together. believe me...it will. You don't have to overwhelm yourself or make every book decision or curriculum decision years in advance. If it ain't broke...don't fix it. If VP is working for you ...use it...pre-read next years books. Choose the ones you love...toss the rest and fill in the gaps from Ambleside, Sonlight, WTM etc. VP is very flexible in the early years. If you don't want to do a worksheet...skip it and do something else. Whatever works. And don't be afraid to trust your instinct. You know YOUR child best.

 

Have a great night and I hope I didn't upset you. That was never my intention at all. My intention was only to encourage and cheer you on.

 

~~Faithe (who is typing very fast and is very embarrassed by all my typos, but is too tired to correct them.)

[Julie in PA]

:001_smile:

Julie...I just wanted to say again that your husband is one of the best teachers we have "met" EVER! He was absolutely wonderful in handling some very difficult and mature themes. Carl and I both LOVED his class....I think that Carl is a very sensitive kid and he is a deep thinker...and I should have waited another year or two before doing Omnibus with him. I let my pride go before my senses. Hard lesson to learn...sigh....

 

~~Faithe

 

Faithe, you in no way have to explain anything. We have had similar regrets with one of our children in particular. Like I said to another poster, I debate ever posting anything because I do not want to seem defensive. I hope I did not. I really was just trying to encourage everyone to not think you had to do anything just because someone else is.

 

By the way, our kids would debate your "one of the best teachers ever" thing about their dad. The older two are often on the computer looking at the list of teachers trying to fugure out how they can get through school without ever having to have their dad!!:001_smile:

[Mommyfaithe]

:001_smile:

 

Faithe, you in no way have to explain anything. We have had similar regrets with one of our children in particular. Like I said to another poster, I debate ever posting anything because I do not want to seem defensive. I hope I did not. I really was just trying to encourage everyone to not think you had to do anything just because someone else is.

 

By the way, our kids would debate your "one of the best teachers ever" thing about their dad. The older two are often on the computer looking at the list of teachers trying to fugure out how they can get through school without ever having to have their dad!!:001_smile:

 

HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

 

My kids tell their professors in college what a hard (you know what) I am. One of my dd's English professors asked me if the class was up to my standards...CAN YOU IMAGINE????????? It was hilarious! You did not sound defensive to me at all. I did not want to come off as bashing Omnibus or VP. I have used their materials for years and Carl's overall experience was great. It was my disconnection and not picking up on his clues that led to the distress. I feel I just wasn't sensitive enough to his signals. I think it was also a matter of my big fat pride...wanting him to study more difficult material at a younger age. What was I thinking?? sigh.... I have already aplogized to him and mended our fences. He is a great kid.

 

Anyway, he absolutely LOVED the American Government portions of O3 and is now seriously thinking of studying Constitutional Law. He is smart enough to do it too. :D He also loved the debate portions...Logic Stage...Love to ARGUE!

 

It was great to talk to you and tell your kids I stand by my "Best Teacher Ever" stance. I am sure Mrs. Etter is a pretty great teacher too.

~~Faithe

[newbie]

I always debate on posting anything. That is why you will notice my posts are almost always towards the end of a thread.:001_smile: I am in this weird place of being a home-school mom and needing encouragement and then being married to someone who is in the middle of it all.

 

I am glad your daughter is enjoying the class. Those summer classes can be brutal!

 

As for the reading, his view and one that he asks his teachers to respect is, that the parents are the ultimate earthly authority and if you tell him you do not want your child reading it, it is fine with him. At the end of each quarter the students have to turn in the percentage of what they read. He does ask that they take it off it they did not read it, but it is a very minimal part of their grade and very seldom does it even cause the final grade to go down. He is always availableto talk these matters through.

 

I am considering starting a yahoo group for VP Scholars. There are so many parents with these questons.

 

Sorry to put you on the spot. Thank you so much for responding, and please put me on your yahoo list, pm me when you get it started. I am going to have a ton of questions. This is our first yr. into classical christian, so it will be a whole new experience for us all. Other dd is in secular, which is good for her.

 

Glad that your dh gets rave reviews, except from your dc.thats understandable. Actually the only reason dd wanted to go to that school out of five, was because she watched his demo and thought he was funny.

Dd has him in the fall,

On another note, I probably only censored 1 percent of 1984 so I think we are good. I think that can still be counted as book read.

 

We are looking forward to a great four yrs. And I hope they get accredited soon.

[PeterPan]

Wow ladies, this has been enlightening! Faithe, I'm finally understanding what you mean, I think. We just watch them and see how it is affecting them. And this is funny, but as I'm more removed from the book, the things that worried me upfront (because I was prereading from a worriesome state) are bothering me less and I'm enjoying thinking back on sections of the book more. In other words, you're right, I might enjoy it more the 2nd time around and have it grow on me. :)

 

I really appreciate all this clarification and discussion, thanks! And btw, my dh thought that was horrendous to have 9th graders reading Mein Kampf, the Communist Manifesto, etc. I see what you're saying though, that it really depends on the dc. I was always sort of a water off a duck's back kind of person, so it probably wouldn't have bothered me. My dd is the same way. My new boy though is much more sensitive. (You can tell, even at this young age!) I could see where kids could be totally different and that you just have to guage and adapt. Like you're saying, I think Omnibus is the easiest framework, a place to start, then we can tweak, drop out, shorten, etc. as needed.

 

Well good. Now to get back my O1 from the person I loaned it to, ack!!! I thought it would be gone a day, and it's been 3 weeks!

[proudmamma]

I just wanted to weigh in and say that my daughter has taken (in this order) Omnibus Primary and Secondary III, II, and IV (this coming year) with VP online. Last night I was telling her about this thread and asking her opinion about how Omnibus has affected her life and she said that is has absolutely been a life altering experience for her. She said that it has awakened her to different worldviews and why they matter...what causes people to think and react the way they do...what is wrong with our society and why morals are declining...and on and on. She said that she will forever be thankful that she has had the opportunity to learn and study these books and to be guided a long the way by the wonderful teachers at VP online classes.

 

We both also feel that she has gotten so much more out of it by taking the classes then she would have by doing it alone or with me. I, personally, just didn't feel like I had the education and insight to guide her through the process. Yet, we have had many wonderful discussions between the two of us and at family gatherings (we love to talk politics, religion, etc on my side of the family) concerning ideas, etc that she is learning through Omnibus.

 

So, yes, a lot of the books are shocking and HARD, but life is like that and humans are corrupt without God! They WILL come in contact with the depravity of men and I am thankful that she has had the opportunity to see it for what it is, and that she will be better equipped to deal with it from a Christian worldview thanks to her study of Omnibus.

 

HTH,

Lora

[Mommyfaithe]

I just wanted to weigh in and say that my daughter has taken (in this order) Omnibus Primary and Secondary III, II, and IV (this coming year) with VP online. Last night I was telling her about this thread and asking her opinion about how Omnibus has affected her life and she said that is has absolutely been a life altering experience for her. She said that it has awakened her to different worldviews and why they matter...what causes people to think and react the way they do...what is wrong with our society and why morals are declining...and on and on. She said that she will forever be thankful that she has had the opportunity to learn and study these books and to be guided a long the way by the wonderful teachers at VP online classes.

 

We both also feel that she has gotten so much more out of it by taking the classes then she would have by doing it alone or with me. I, personally, just didn't feel like I had the education and insight to guide her through the process. Yet, we have had many wonderful discussions between the two of us and at family gatherings (we love to talk politics, religion, etc on my side of the family) concerning ideas, etc that she is learning through Omnibus.

 

So, yes, a lot of the books are shocking and HARD, but life is like that and humans are corrupt without God! They WILL come in contact with the depravity of men and I am thankful that she has had the opportunity to see it for what it is, and that she will be better equipped to deal with it from a Christian worldview thanks to her study of Omnibus.

 

HTH,

Lora

 

I totally agree with you, my main point in studying Great Books...with or without Omnibus, is to still try to be sensitive to the needs and maturity of your child. Should we stay away from difficult of thought provoking material?? No Way! That is the point of studying books. Should we stretch our kids and help them to see our Worldview and encourage them to grapple with other ideas ...HECK YES!! Should we do it before they are ready or just to say we did...or to push them well beyond what they are capable of dealing with....or to put our child (Or our own pride) on a pedestal and be so proud of what difficult works they are tackling?? NO!

 

It sounds like your dd is and was ready and willing to approach the Great Books studies. Good for her and Good for you!! That is wonderful. And, it is always better to read books in a group with a knowledgeable leader in the class. Mr. Etter sure is that and I am glad Carl had a chance to study with his class. That was a very GOOD experience. However, in hindsight, which is always 20/20, I personally would have held off on a few of the books until 11th or 12th grade.

 

 

It is OK to wait until a child is a little more mature and able to handle the issues they will be faced with. For some, this will be 12 or 13, for others 15 or 16. And of course you don't need to skip every book in a time period. There is so much material out there. Take your time....Enjoy your journey...enjoy your studies...if one book doesn't rock your socks there is always another one that will.

 

~~Faithe

[PeterPan]

Lora, thanks for sharing your experience! Can I ask how old your dd is, or how old (what grade) she was at the time she did each level?

[newbie]

I just wanted to weigh in and say that my daughter has taken (in this order) Omnibus Primary and Secondary III, II, and IV (this coming year) with VP online. Last night I was telling her about this thread and asking her opinion about how Omnibus has affected her life and she said that is has absolutely been a life altering experience for her. She said that it has awakened her to different worldviews and why they matter...what causes people to think and react the way they do...what is wrong with our society and why morals are declining...and on and on. She said that she will forever be thankful that she has had the opportunity to learn and study these books and to be guided a long the way by the wonderful teachers at VP online classes.

 

We both also feel that she has gotten so much more out of it by taking the classes then she would have by doing it alone or with me. I, personally, just didn't feel like I had the education and insight to guide her through the process. Yet, we have had many wonderful discussions between the two of us and at family gatherings (we love to talk politics, religion, etc on my side of the family) concerning ideas, etc that she is learning through Omnibus.

 

So, yes, a lot of the books are shocking and HARD, but life is like that and humans are corrupt without God! They WILL come in contact with the depravity of men and I am thankful that she has had the opportunity to see it for what it is, and that she will be better equipped to deal with it from a Christian worldview thanks to her study of Omnibus.

 

HTH,

Lora

 

Awesome post, it is always nice to have a students perspective. You know, my other dd's school has sessions pre w/parents and teachers to talk about these things, they also incorporate the students to talk about how they feel and how they work w/curriculum.

 

Matter of fact, dd has been elected to be a peer mentor, to help students adjust to their program and curriculum. That would be a great thing for VP to start, hint, hint. Sounds like there are some wonderful students who would help newbies like my dd who are coming into the fold.

 

Love this thread, instead of a yahoo group,perhaps someone should start a Vp group in the social groups.