Humbled (and bothered) by my ignorance

[elw_miller]

My kids and I have just started listening to Anne of Green Gables. We listened to the part where she beseeches Murilla to call her 'Cordelia' instead of Anne.

 

Until TODAY I thought her pick of Cordelia as a lovely and romantic name a bit odd.

 

I am a sadly ignorant English major. :( This evening I picked up Charlotte Mason's 6th book, A Philosophy of Education. Here is what I read (p. 242):

 

Sometimes they are asked to write verses about a personage or an event; the result is not remarkable by way of poetry, but sums up a good deal of thoughtful reading in a delightful way; for example,--the reading of King Lear is gathered in twelve lines on 'Cordelia,'--

 

 

'Cordelia'

 

Nobliest lady, doomed to slaughter,

 

An unlov'd, unpitied daughter,

 

Though Cordelia thous may'st be,

 

"Love's" the fittest name for thee; [just an excerpt]

What a reference I missed until today! Anne of Green Gables is ever so slightly richer by my reading this small poem in a CM book. I have never read King Lear. I graduated with a degree in English Education. How in the world did I graduate without reading this? Or so many other books for that matter?!

 

Yet again I am reminded my education could be a sieve it is so full of holes.

 

Has anyone else experienced this (over and over and over again)? There are so many books and topics on my 'why didn't I read/learn this' list.

 

What are some of yours?

[WishboneDawn]

 

Yet again I am reminded my education could be a sieve it is so full of holes.

 

 

You don't think that's something to be grateful for?

 

All educations, even the very best, are full of innumerable holes. How happy that they are or else you wouldn't have had the joy of discovering a new poem that enriched your experience of revisiting Anne of Green Gables. How dead is revisit would be if there were nothing new about it.

 

I was working in a bookstore about 8 years ago and admitted to a customer who was a huge Tolkien fan that I hadn't read Lord of the Rings. Most avid readers I told that too would moan and tell me what a shame that I hadn't. This customer lit up and told me how envious she was of me because it was still ahead of me to be discovered. Not a bad attitude to have towards all those things we don't know or haven't learned yet.

[Mabeline]

What a neat way of looking at it. Insteading of bemoaning when I don't know something, I should look at it as an oportunity to explore new knowledge. Thanks!

[Rosie_0801]

Don't feel bad. My English teacher in year 11 had never heard of 'A Christmas Carol.'

 

"Y'know Miss! Charles Dickens!"

 

Nope.

 

"The Muppets?"

 

Nope.

 

 

Instead of feeling dumb, feel happy you've discovered a new poem. I'm working on memorising my 3rd favourite so I'm on the look out for a fourth. Can't feel inspired to memorise a poem if it isn't my favourite. Though I feel I should know "The Owl and the Pussycat" by heart. Not sure why, it just seems important...

 

Rosie

[Orthodox6]

Have you seen this book ?

http://www.amazon.com/Annotated-Anne-Green-Gables/dp/0195104285/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247367302&sr=8-1

 

It is a goldmine for anyone interested in such references !

[TKDmom]

I had to read King Lear twice when I was in school. But I would have never picked up on that reference either. I think this is why I get excited about homeschooling--so I can learn new things and make connections that I never tried to see when I was in school. Isn't it fun? :001_smile:

[Nicole M]

I had to read King Lear twice when I was in school. But I would have never picked up on that reference either. I think this is why I get excited about homeschooling--so I can learn new things and make connections that I never tried to see when I was in school. Isn't it fun? :001_smile:

 

Of course, sometimes if I'm in a bad mood, I beat myself up for not knowing something. But I try not to react that way on a regular basis. Really, making connections is what it's all about! I try to nurture an environment where my boys and I are able to form habits of inquiry. I love those little a-ha moments, and I try to encourage opportunities for finding them, by asking questions and remaining curious.

 

Nicole (who has been working on our "philosophy of education" statement for college apps)

[Janet in WA]

 

How happy that they are or else you wouldn't have had the joy of discovering a new poem that enriched your experience of revisiting Anne of Green Gables.

How true. I always say that I don't consider a day well lived unless I learn something I didn't know before.

[dangermom]

I had to read King Lear twice when I was in school. But I would have never picked up on that reference either. I think this is why I get excited about homeschooling--so I can learn new things and make connections that I never tried to see when I was in school. Isn't it fun? :001_smile:

I know perfectly well who Cordelia was, and I've read Anne a zillion times. Did that click? Noooo. I learned something today too. :)

 

I do have the Anne's Anthology and it's really nice.

[KJB]

Part of being educated is realizing how much there is that you *don't* know.

 

IMHO.

[elw_miller]

You don't think that's something to be grateful for?

 

All educations, even the very best, are full of innumerable holes. How happy that they are or else you wouldn't have had the joy of discovering a new poem that enriched your experience of revisiting Anne of Green Gables. How dead is revisit would be if there were nothing new about it.

 

Thank you, and others, for helping me see the cup half full. :)

 

I guess I was bemoaning the nearly missed allusion because I felt like I should have caught it (and did miss it until I read CM). One of my favorite literary devices is the allusion, so whenever I think I've missed one (or nearly missed one) I start wondering what else I'm missing. And while it's great to go read and learn something new, allusions in novels don't have citations for me to go discover their origin! Agh! ;) That aspect of my education being a sieve is what's bothersome, I guess, not it being a sieve per se.

 

I'd best get to know King Lear in case there are other allusions waiting to be discovered in Anne of Green Gables. :) Hooray! Another adventure!

[mommaduck]

Don't feel bad. My English teacher in year 11 had never heard of 'A Christmas Carol.'

 

"Y'know Miss! Charles Dickens!"

 

Nope.

 

"The Muppets?"

 

Nope.

 

 

 

 

Oh that is sad. Very, very sad.

[kalanamak]

You don't think that's something to be grateful for?

 

 

My son gets a look of rapture when he bumps into something he's learned recently. I hear him thinking "I am not alone in the universe of my experiences. Someone else besides me (and Mama) has been here and known that." His sudden happy brightening is contagious, and I make a point of being overtly thrilled with him. Makes my day.

[Janet in Toronto]

Not literature, but when my oldest was in Montessori school, they had a curriculum night. At that time, I had an undergrad degree in Math and a Master's in statistics. I had never understood the proof of the Pythagorean theorem in a concrete way until I saw one of the Montessori math materials. That they were using with 3-5 year olds.

[BikeBookBread]

Have you seen this book ?

http://www.amazon.com/Annotated-Anne-Green-Gables/dp/0195104285/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247367302&sr=8-1

 

It is a goldmine for anyone interested in such references !

 

Thanks! I just added this to my Amazon wish list. The girls and I have been listening to Anne of Avonlea on CD in the car on errands...I have to admit. When I get out of the house, I listen ahead! The Anne books are truly rich.

[BikeBookBread]

I know perfectly well who Cordelia was, and I've read Anne a zillion times. Did that click? Noooo. I learned something today too.

 

 

DITTO! I've easily read Anne twenty times.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I remember Charlotte Mason writing in one of her books to not "ruin" a book for your kids by teaching it too much. Let them discover the hidden treasures for themselves - even if it takes a number of readings over time. (I can't remember which book it was in but if anyone is interested in the exact quote I'll look for it.)

[Desert Rat]

Don't feel badly about the holes. I'm filling them as I go as well. I, too, graduated with a degree in English and have never read a Charles Dickens novel. After graduation I've tried picking one up a dozen or so times and can't get past the first 50 pages or so. I think I've got a Dickens block or something. I'm determined to read a Christmas Carol aloud this winter to my boys so I can at least say I've read something by the man.

FWIW, the only reason I new the above mentioned quote is because I was lucky enough to attend a university with an Oxford trained Shakespearan scholar. I took two of his classes. :o

[LBC]

You don't think that's something to be grateful for?

 

All educations, even the very best, are full of innumerable holes. How happy that they are or else you wouldn't have had the joy of discovering a new poem that enriched your experience of revisiting Anne of Green Gables. How dead is revisit would be if there were nothing new about it.

 

 

 

Wow! This is profound to me.:blush: I have spent so much time regretting my own lack of education. I have grumbled about my need to learn so many things in order to teach them to my children. When I read this it hit me like a ton of bricks that if it weren't for all the new things I've learned over the years, I don't know if I would have had the incentive to continue teaching my children at home.

 

I feel as though this thread has given me a new motivation to continue to learn algebra, and keep plugging through IEW's The Excellent Essay this summer so that I can teach dd how to write a good essay with a thesis statement (I didn't have a clue what a thesis statement was until a couple of years ago).

 

Thanks! I'm giving this thread 5 stars. I'd give you rep if I could.:D

 

Lori

[secular_mom]

No one can possibly know EVERYTHING.

[Imprimis]

Yet again I am reminded my education could be a sieve it is so full of holes.

 

 

 

Well, I look at it like this: Education is a life-long process, and not something that is achieved in 12 years, 16 years, or more. I will never feel my education is complete; I know there will always be more to learn.

 

I look forward to learning something new each day. It's part of what makes life so exciting!

 

 

P.S. I never picked up the Cordelia reference before, either.....Thanks for pointing that out!

[Rosie_0801]

I, too, graduated with a degree in English and have never read a Charles Dickens novel. After graduation I've tried picking one up a dozen or so times and can't get past the first 50 pages or so. I think I've got a Dickens block or something. I'm determined to read a Christmas Carol aloud this winter to my boys so I can at least say I've read something by the man.

 

 

There's a reason for that. His work is excruciating to read! It's much better on film, I think. I was about to give up, then read Great Expectations, which wasn't so bad.

 

Rosie

[Ginger]

Are the other Anne books as good as the first? (I've got some thing with sequels, that I find they don't usually live up to the first, so I tend to leave them alone)

I just bought A Christmas Carol to read this December to the kids. I guess I should prepare that we might not get through it and be okay with that.

[elw_miller]

There's a reason for that. His work is excruciating to read! It's much better on film, I think. I was about to give up, then read Great Expectations, which wasn't so bad.

 

Rosie

 

I really like Great Expectations, too. A Christmas Carol is also a pretty good read.

[Orthodox6]

We love Dickens at our house ! Top favorites, both film AND original novel. include Martin Chuzzlewit, Our Mutual Friend, Bleak House, and Little Dorrit.

 

I fell in love with Dickens' works the summer after high school. I rode the city bus downtown-and-back every day to work. I still remember reading Pickwick Papers on the bus, and having to smother impulses to laugh out loud.

 

The only one we have loathed, thus far, is Hard Times.

 

There's a reason for that. His work is excruciating to read! It's much better on film, I think. I was about to give up, then read Great Expectations, which wasn't so bad.

 

Rosie

[Orthodox6]

Some of the subsequent books are "thinner" than others. Although the content of Anne of the Island is crucial to the series (for it iincludes Anne's eventual reconciliation with and engagement to Gilbert), the books -- as a whole -- is "thin" compared with some of the others. (opinion, that is)

 

I loved the "Emily" books almost as much.

 

I have about half of the Oxford University Press editions of Dickens. In the introduction to The Christmas Books (which includes A Christmas Carol, the writer explains that for many years, Cricket on the Hearth enjoyed far greater popularity than A Christmas Carol, which latter book eventually supplanted it in public favor.

 

Are the other Anne books as good as the first? (I've got some thing with sequels, that I find they don't usually live up to the first, so I tend to leave them alone)

I just bought A Christmas Carol to read this December to the kids. I guess I should prepare that we might not get through it and be okay with that.

[Desert Rat]

Thanks, Rosie. I think it's excruciating too but didn't want to seem, oh I don't know.....I'll try Great Expectations, maybe.....someday......

[Brilliant]

OK, I'm confused. How do we know Anne's desire to be called Cordelia is a literary allusion? I'm familiar with the story of King Lear and still don't get it. Couldn't Anne just like the name?

[Orthodox6]

OK, I'm confused. How do we know Anne's desire to be called Cordelia is a literary allusion? I'm familiar with the story of King Lear and still don't get it. Couldn't Anne just like the name?

 

Oh, thank you for sticking out your neck first ! That is exactly my thought !

[elw_miller]

OK, I'm confused. How do we know Anne's desire to be called Cordelia is a literary allusion? I'm familiar with the story of King Lear and still don't get it. Couldn't Anne just like the name?

 

I have not yet read King Lear. But, based on the CM poem I first cited, the poem seemed to indicate that Cordelia was an "unlov'd, unpitied daughter"--a character, if I'm right in understanding, Anne would have felt some resonance with, since she, too, until being adopted was an unlov'd, unpitied child.

 

Cordelia is not a name that struck me as a "romantic" name as it did Anne. It's nearly up there with Mildred in my book (solid name though it be). I can think of no other reason why a name like Cordelia would be Anne's pick for a lovely name.

 

But, like I said, I have not yet read King Lear, so I may be inaccurately seeing an allusion (one stemming from a poem I read in my CM in book) where there isn't one.

 

Good question! I like these sorts of discussions. :)

 

P.S. I'd never heard of the name Cordelia beyond Anne saying she liked it, until I saw the poem about the character from King Lear.

Edited July 13, 2009 by elw_miller
Forgot to add...

[dangermom]

Are the other Anne books as good as the first? (I've got some thing with sequels, that I find they don't usually live up to the first, so I tend to leave them alone)

 

I like them, and I read them over and over as a young teen. But as above, they are a little thinner. One friend of mine complains that after Anne gets married, she stops doing anything--the books do start bringing in lots of characters with their stories. However, I still love them and there are episodes that have really stayed with me for years. And Rilla of Ingleside is IMO right up there, one of my favorites. (I own most of Montgomery's books.)

 

Hey, want to have some fun? Read The Blue Castle. Then go find Colleen McCullough's The Ladies of Missalonghi and read that. Return and report your findings....:D

[stripe]

I always thought Cordelia sounded better (to her) than Anne. It certainly has many more syllables (4 vs 1), and ends in a vowel. Rolls off the tongue more, or something. But I wouldn't kick yourself for not thinking of this.

 

I think Anne of Green Gables is better than the others....By the way, I recently read the "prequel" by Budge Wilson, and it's okay, but I felt it didn't really add anything important to the story.

 

I also recently read parts of Looking for Anne of Green Gables: The Story of L. M. Montgomery and Her Literary Classic by Irene Gammel, and was shocked at how many similar stories Montgomery had been heavily "influenced" by, and the astute discussion of Montgomery's social commentary in the book, including racism (both her comments about it, and her own apparent views on French Canadians).

[elw_miller]

I always thought Cordelia sounded better (to her) than Anne. It certainly has many more syllables (4 vs 1), and ends in a vowel. Rolls off the tongue more, or something. But I wouldn't kick yourself for not thinking of this.

 

Well, yes. Anne even comments on how short and plain she thinks her name is (even wants it spelled with an 'e' so it's at least written with a vowel). But why did the author pick Cordelia and not Victoria or Estella or Isabelle--all these fit that criteria? Perhaps there is something apt about the name Cordelia. Why did Anne like the name? Yes, it is all those things to Anne, but might it be more? Did she feel a kinship, in a way, to the character Cordelia and thus chose that name as a substitute for her own?

 

Just speculating... :)

[Luanne]

No one can possibly know EVERYTHING.

 

 

Because I really want to. :D

[Luanne]

Hey, want to have some fun? Read The Blue Castle. Then go find Colleen McCullough's The Ladies of Missalonghi and read that. Return and report your findings....:D

 

 

I'll take that challenge! :D

 

I have to prospector The Blue Castle though so it will take me a bit to get the book so I can read it. My library has the other one you mentioned.

[stripe]

Well, yes. Anne even comments on how short and plain she thinks her name is (even wants it spelled with an 'e' so it's at least written with a vowel). But why did the author pick Cordelia and not Victoria or Estella or Isabelle--all these fit that criteria? Perhaps there is something apt about the name Cordelia. Why did Anne like the name? Yes, it is all those things to Anne, but might it be more? Did she feel a kinship, in a way, to the character Cordelia and thus chose that name as a substitute for her own?

 

Just speculating... :)

Good questions; I was just saying that I assumed it was because of the sound, but I am not sure that she was supposed to have read King Lear before coming to Green Gables.

 

In "Looking for Green Gables" the author specifically discusses (p 169-170) Anne's renaming of herself as Geraldine, Elaine, and Cordelia. :) In the back footnotes, she mentions the specific literary allusions in Anne, including talking about the naming of a rose (would it really be as sweet by another name?), Lady Cordelia Fitzgerald, and the naming of Willowmere.

Edited July 13, 2009 by stripe

[Lizzie in Ma]

You don't think that's something to be grateful for?

 

All educations, even the very best, are full of innumerable holes. How happy that they are or else you wouldn't have had the joy of discovering a new poem that enriched your experience of revisiting Anne of Green Gables. How dead is revisit would be if there were nothing new about it.

 

I was working in a bookstore about 8 years ago and admitted to a customer who was a huge Tolkien fan that I hadn't read Lord of the Rings. Most avid readers I told that too would moan and tell me what a shame that I hadn't. This customer lit up and told me how envious she was of me because it was still ahead of me to be discovered. Not a bad attitude to have towards all those things we don't know or haven't learned yet.

 

That is so true, I often say to my kids, when they pick up an old favorite of mine, that I envy them for getting to experience it for the first time. :)

 

Education is full of holes and never complete. In two lifetimes I could never learn or impart everything I aspire to do. Every day brings new knowledge adn every revelation is a gift. Enjoy your journey!

[Orthodox6]

The Blue Castle is public domain text in Australia, but not yet in the U.S. So if you go to the Project Gutenberg, Australian edition, you can read the book online.

 

I'll take that challenge! :D

 

I have to prospector The Blue Castle though so it will take me a bit to get the book so I can read it. My library has the other one you mentioned.

[elw_miller]

Good questions; I was just saying that I assumed it was because of the sound, but I am not sure that she was supposed to have read King Lear before coming to Green Gables.

 

In "Looking for Green Gables" the author specifically discusses (p 169-170) Anne's renaming of herself as Geraldine, Elaine, and Cordelia. :) In the back footnotes, she mentions the specific literary allusions in Anne, including talking about the naming of a rose (would it really be as sweet by another name?), Lady Cordelia Fitzgerald, and the naming of Willowmere.

 

I'll have to read that book. Perhaps she was not supposed to have read King Lear, but perhaps we were (at some point in our relationship with Anne). She may have been ignorant to the reference, but maybe the author hoped we, the readers, weren't.

 

What does your book say about the literary reference for Lady Cordelia Fitzgerald? Am I reading into things that aren't there (or will I have to satisfy my curiosity by reading the book you cited--which sounds like a good read anyway)? ;)

Edited July 13, 2009 by elw_miller
Forgot to add something due to a kiddo distraction :)

[stripe]

The section on the renaming is interesting but brief. Lady Cordelia Fitzgerald is only mentioned in a footnote, without specifying what the reference is. In the original text, it occurs when she apologizes for losing Marilla's brooch:

I imagined how perfectly thrilling it would be to take it to Idlewild and play I was the Lady Cordelia Fitzgerald.

Apparently Idlewild is the name Anne and Dianna give the location of their play house, and is based on some incidents in Montgomery's childhood. But apparently Anne and Dianna stopped going after the age of 13. I have no memory of this at all from the book, but I found it here, in chapter XIII:

 

You know that little piece of land across the brook that runs up between our farm and Mr. Barry's. It belongs to Mr. William Bell, and right in the corner there is a little ring of white birch trees--the most romantic spot, Marilla. Diana and I have our playhouse there. We call it Idlewild. Isn't that a poetical name? I assure you it took me some time to think it out. I stayed awake nearly a whole night before I invented it. Then, just as I was dropping off to sleep, it came like an inspiration. Diana was ENRAPTURED when she heard it. We have got our house fixed up elegantly. You must come and see it, Marilla--won't you? We have great big stones, all covered with moss, for seats, and boards from tree to tree for shelves. And we have all our dishes on them. Of course, they're all broken but it's the easiest thing in the world to imagine that they are whole. There's a piece of a plate with a spray of red and yellow ivy on it that is especially beautiful. We keep it in the parlor and we have the fairy glass there, too. The fairy glass is as lovely as a dream. Diana found it out in the woods behind their chicken house. It's all full of rainbows--just little young rainbows that haven't grown big yet--and Diana's mother told her it was broken off a hanging lamp they once had. But it's nice to imagine the fairies lost it one night when they had a ball, so we call it the fairy glass. Matthew is going to make us a table. Oh, we have named that little round pool over in Mr. Barry's field Willowmere. I got that name out of the book Diana lent me. That was a thrilling book, Marilla. The heroine had five lovers. I'd be satisfied with one, wouldn't you? She was very handsome and she went through great tribulations. She could faint as easy as anything. I'd love to be able to faint, wouldn't you, Marilla? It's so romantic. But I'm really very healthy for all I'm so thin. I believe I'm getting fatter, though. Don't you think I am? I look at my elbows every morning when I get up to see if any dimples are coming.

[KingM]

My son gets a look of rapture when he bumps into something he's learned recently. I hear him thinking "I am not alone in the universe of my experiences. Someone else besides me (and Mama) has been here and known that." His sudden happy brightening is contagious, and I make a point of being overtly thrilled with him. Makes my day.

 

Isn't that great at any age? I was amazed when I started to study French a few years ago how many doorways opened up. Little bits of untranslated French are in all the old classics, since in that day most educated people spoke at least a smattering. My mind had simply glossed over them before.

 

And then, when you suddenly hear an old expression or an English word picked up from French and now you know what it means. You just want to share it with the closest person next to you.

 

(Who is usually my wife and kind of sick of hearing me babble on about French and Spanish.)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

The King of Texas is King Lear set in a Texas ranching era with Patrick Stewart as Lear. I think that the language is the original version. Somehow seeing this with a setting I could picture made a big difference. I got it much more than when I'd read it and more even than when I saw it on stage in college.

 

Or maybe it's just that I'm older and I've seen the family fights over inheritance in my own family. Perhaps I better understand the tensions between grown children now that I am one.

[stripe]

I'm not sure Anne herself knew the significance of Cordelia, at least as it relates to this poem, but that doesn't mean LM Montgomery didn't pick it. Anyway something interesting to think about.

 

I've never read King Lear myself, although my mom always said it was her favorite Shakespeare work. I've sort of had a lifelong fear of Shakespeare. Maybe it's time to overcome it!