Homeschool, Unschooling, and Radical Unschooling

[Night Elf]

I'm not saying unschooling doesn't work. I've seen one family make it work in a great way. They learned a lot and did a great job. However, in my family, it wouldn't work. One son would skateboard, skate and play a bit of video games all day. The other son would play video games, draw and watch tv all day. They've never leaned toward the things that offer those type of learning opportunities.

 

The point is that with unschooling, you'd see all that they were learning doing the things they loved, though it isn't the learning your traditional schooling leaning is expecting. Unschooling definitely doesn't work when a parent steps back and expects the child to recreate school at home. I still maintain that beyond reading and basic math skills, there is nothing my kids need to know by adulthood that an ignorance of the subject would be detrimental to their lives.

[Night Elf]

Perhaps I am misguided, but I was under the impression that the reason we have juvenile delinquency is because young people do not have enough structure in their lives and without structure they embark on deviant behavior.

 

:lol::lol: I'm sorry but this is really funny! Being educated in a non-traditional way is not deviant behavior.

 

I wish, wish, wish people wouldn't equate unschooling with barefoot kids running through the streets like wild animals.

[Night Elf]

I suspect it also takes an incredibly well-educated parent to provide intelligent commentary and guidance about whatever one may encounter in the world, to make all these sorts of connections. If you are not a walking encyclopedia, it may be easy to, for example, miss a passing reference to Greek mythology or a minor character in Shakespeare or a short-lived economic theory, and thereby miss the opportunity to connect that.

 

And what about the homeschooling families who do not provide this? I know many homeschooling families who cannot be described this way. Gosh, by your definition, no one should homeschool unless they have a PhD in many different subjects. In fact, I probably wouldn't know these questions if you asked me. Does that mean I'm not qualified to teach my children as well as you? Seriously?

[Night Elf]

Um, wow. No dicipline? Eat as much as they want? Watch as much TV as they want?

 

Hope things work out that way for them as adults.

 

astrid

 

My life is working. I can't recall a single time I was spanked or put in time-out for a mistake I've made in my adult life. I'd be surprised if my DH or some other adult came along and told me when and what I could eat or control my tv habits. I'd think they were loopy!

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I belong to an unschooling message group which I joined with other message groups when I was exploring homeschooling. My understanding of radical unschooling from this group is that it is all child driven. So if they do not want to learn math or reading, then they don't learn it. Although, I did hear some parents say that they would use techniques such as if they wanted to learn something then it might require math or reading. Many of these unschoolers on this particular board also did not believe in setting rules, bedtimes, etc. :001_huh:

 

 

IMHO, I believe that children need structure, rules, guidelines, and discipline such as time-out or withdrawing priviledges. I do try to give my child some choices, but there are still many I have to make. If it were up to my ds he would play scholastic computer games all day or watch tv way to much despite his love of learning. IMHO, I also believe that there certain skills such as reading, math, handwriting, good manners, etc. that must be learned. I do try to give my ds a variety of ways in learning. On the other hand, there is no substitute for a least a certain amount of time devoted to traditional math problems, spelling and handwritng practice and the like. If my ds voices an interest in a topic such as astronomy, history etc, then I make sure to have plenty of those sorts of books or educational shows available to him as a supplement.

 

 

Just my 2 cents:)

Edited July 8, 2009 by priscilla
clarification

[stripe]

And what about the homeschooling families who do not provide this? I know many homeschooling families who cannot be described this way. Gosh, by your definition, no one should homeschool unless they have a PhD in many different subjects. In fact, I probably wouldn't know these questions if you asked me. Does that mean I'm not qualified to teach my children as well as you? Seriously?

? Whaaat? I never attacked you OR homeschoolers OR anyone; I never said I was doing fabulously at homeschooling or that you weren't, and nor do I have a PhD, anyway. When I said:

 

I suspect it also takes an incredibly well-educated parent to provide intelligent commentary and guidance about whatever one may encounter in the world, to make all these sorts of connections. If you are not a walking encyclopedia, it may be easy to, for example, miss a passing reference to Greek mythology or a minor character in Shakespeare or a short-lived economic theory, and thereby miss the opportunity to connect that.

I meant that to be "on the fly" and catch every reference floating through the air as it came would require an extremely articulate, well educated, and attentive person. I am not such a person -- I know that I would miss many references and not serve my children's educational development well at all.

 

I think it's harder, if you want no curriculum, no schedule, no set goals, and no planned out system, to cover topics as cohesively as possible. I suspect that homeschooling families who cannot recognize cultural/literary references as they come across them and explain them and then make connections between pollination and "A Midsummer Night's Dream", take advantage of various books to plan coverage in advance, which gives them the opportunity to inform themselves before they discuss it with their kids, if they are not super-informed.

 

And about bedtimes -- I am not a strict "bedtime" person myself, but I have been reading recently about sleep deprivation and children, and it's a big problem these days, and staying up all night does have negative health effects, so I think it is important to ensure one's child eats well and sleeps enough.

Edited July 8, 2009 by stripe

[Bee]

Some days w don't start off with a plan. Some days we don't do anything schoolish at all. But there are more days that we do use our books and textbooks and workbooks. We are eclectic; it works for us.

 

I know unschoolers who are appalled that we use books and do certain subjects nearly every day. I know people who do school at home complete with textbooks from the school and 5-6 hours a day of schoolwork who think we are strange because we don't. And I think it's because people can't fit us into 1 group or the other that they often feel uncomfortable around us.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

This is just a post script. I was only expressing my opinion in my previous post. I am not bashing all unschoolers. I am sure that there are many who are successful.

 

It just MHO, that in general I do not think radical unschooling is a good idea since I seem to encounter many families in stores, etc, who let there children run wild so to speak and misbehave. I think many of the problems are public schools are facing include the problem of many parents who are not parenting. In general, I think children and adults for that matter need structure, rules, discipline, etc.

 

On the other hand, I also think there is value in encouraging your child to explore his interests as long as they are not detrimental to that child. I also think that it ok to break routine on regular basis and to give my ds some choices. I do not want to be a dictator so to speak. On the other hand, I still need to set rules and guidlelines so that chaos will not ensue.;)

[sagira]

And about bedtimes -- I am not a strict "bedtime" person myself, but I have been reading recently about sleep deprivation and children, and it's a big problem these days, and staying up all night does have negative health effects, so I think it is important to ensure one's child eats well and sleeps enough.

 

Not to highjack the thread, but I struggle with this. It's the main reason dh and I were considering not having children. I take parenting very seriously and I want to do a good job. However, I do myself. I don't do anything routine except going to the bathroom :tongue_smilie:, and dh isn't much different. Going to bed is hit or miss here. The good part is that ds sleeps in until 10 or 11 in the morning. I would be interested in reading your source about sleep deprivation. I know I am sleep deprived, and think my youngest is too.

 

Back to the thread: My main concern with radical unschooling is the lack of discipline indeed. One of my friends was unschooled and the other homeschooled in a structured, traditional, way. The unschooled friend is indeed one of the most interesting, open-minded, creative and enterprising people I know but not to be tied down. The other homeschooled friend is sorry her family did not give her a better education, more structure and she wished she had better opportunities. She wanted to do more with her education.

 

Interestingly enough, I'm a free sort of person too and I don't like to be tied. I've been in a structured, public school system all my life and I always dreamed of freedom. I remember liking school a lot for the learning and the social aspects, but not the fact that you couldn't walk around as you pleased :) I'm glad that I was made to read literature I wouldn't have touched otherwise, though. Made me grow as a person. This is what I think unschooling misses (in my inexperienced and humble opinion) -- that sometimes you have to be presented with something have to do something, before you can appreciate it. It's opening your mind, teaching about diligence and hard work.. sweating through something to get something worthwhile out of something. I hope I'm making sense here :)

Edited July 8, 2009 by sagira

[Night Elf]

I suspect that homeschooling families who cannot recognize cultural/literary references as they come across them and explain them and then make connections between pollination and "A Midsummer Night's Dream", take advantage of various books to plan coverage in advance, which gives them the opportunity to inform themselves before they discuss it with their kids, if they are not super-informed.

 

If I misinterpreted, I'm sorry. Your first post, as this one, makes me feel like you're still saying that homeschooling parents need to be able to catch everything and if they don't, they should be using textbooks to make sure they do. It just seems absolutely impossible to catch everything, nor would I want to. And just as an aside, were you kidding about a connection between pollination and "A Midsummer in Night's Dream"? Either you're kidding and I feel stupid, or you're serious and I still clueless and stupid. :lol:

 

And how do you know what you are and are not super-informed about? The reason I make a big deal out of this argument is because I hear time and time again about how we need to teach our kids everything, when that is clearly impossible. The next step down is to make sure we are teaching them what they clearly need to know. Again, who determines that information? I just really don't understand this concept. It's truly foreign to me. I suppose it's at the opposite spectrum at the idea of unschooling when nothing is deemed so important that is must be learned.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Not a Dr. Phil fan - can't stand him. My first exposure to homeschooling was through John Holt and the Colfaxes. I embraced the idea of learning all the time. I don't believe in unparenting, but I embraced unschooling. I set up our home to be rich in learning opportunities: Books out the wazoo (because I love books), educational toys and games, opportunities for contributing to the running of the household. We limited screen time (except for nature programs on The Discovery Channel) and kept only healthy foods in the house. We went on field trips, mostly because mom needed adult time:).

 

I loved unschooling. Everyday, I got to see the world with new eyes - my children's. My kids had a passion for learning and that is what I named our school. My kids were learning - little sponges, they were. It was exciting. Eventually, I knew we would get a math book, but I felt that, even if there were gaps, what they did learn, they retained. My oldest still knows over 30 types of bats because, at age 5, he had a passion about bats. ETA: One of the best things I did was teach them how to ask questions, to look at the world with wonder. Instead of creating lesson plans, I recorded what we did and what they learned. And it was a lot!

 

But, alas, the third child came along. Whether it was exhaustion or depression or whatever, I was not engaged like I used to be. We couldn't go on field trips because DD screamed bloody murder if we drove more than 5 minutes. I was seeing that I need the structure or I would be in my jammies all day. We have unschooled several subjects over the years because I didn't want to interrupt their learning with my agenda. Why force a science curriculum when your kids want to do experiments and read about new things? They were learning more than I could ever teach them.

 

In the long run, our early years of unschooling has benefitted my children. They are quite independent learners. I miss that time, but I am not that mom anymore.

 

Regarding the previous poster who said that juvenile delinquency was due to lack of structure - I don't think that is necessarily true. I think delinquency is rooted in children who do not have good impulse control and do not have purpose in their lives. The lack of external structure allows these failings to manifest themselves in delinquent behavior.

Edited July 9, 2009 by dirty ethel rackham

[LUV2EDU]

If I misinterpreted, I'm sorry. Your first post, as this one, makes me feel like you're still saying that homeschooling parents need to be able to catch everything and if they don't, they should be using textbooks to make sure they do. It just seems absolutely impossible to catch everything, nor would I want to. And just as an aside, were you kidding about a connection between pollination and "A Midsummer in Night's Dream"? Either you're kidding and I feel stupid, or you're serious and I still clueless and stupid. :lol:

 

And how do you know what you are and are not super-informed about? The reason I make a big deal out of this argument is because I hear time and time again about how we need to teach our kids everything, when that is clearly impossible. The next step down is to make sure we are teaching them what they clearly need to know. Again, who determines that information? I just really don't understand this concept. It's truly foreign to me. I suppose it's at the opposite spectrum at the idea of unschooling when nothing is deemed so important that is must be learned.

 

 

This is probably why we run around like chickens trying to select the "right" curriculum- hoping that we don't miss anything that is crucial to our child's education. What we have to realize is that everyone's "curriculum" (traditional or unschooling) is going to be different. Even the public schools in each state have different curriculum standards. I guess in the end it comes down to what is best for your child.

 

We don't like when the public school bureaucrats try to discourage homeschooling by using every tactic they can think of. We hate when they try to allude to the fact that homeschooled families lock their children in a "basement/house" and isolated them from society.

 

Although unschooling will not work for my family, I wanted to be objective and get a better understanding on the subject. I don't want to do to unschoolers what the government is trying to do to homeschooling as a whole. KWIM

Edited July 9, 2009 by LUV2EDU

[WishboneDawn]

Just two things;

 

1)It's a Dr. Phil teaser. Dr. Phil. It's footage shot by his crew and edited by his crew to fit a story written by his crew. You're not seeing radical unschooling or the real life of Dayna Martin (the mom in the clip). You're seeing what the Dr. Phil shows wants you to see. Sheesh. Google Dayna Martin and judge from that. I'm pretty sure I was on an email list with her once and if I remember correctly she was a very caring, intelligent and common sense mom.

 

2) Drop the whole unstructured, undisciplined thing. We whine about how homeschoolers are portrayed as unsocialized or anti-social, we point out how those are baseless stereotypes from people who don't understand homeschooling but when we're talking about a sub-group of our own community...? We bring up baseless stereotypes based on a misunderstanding.

 

3) No need to say you could never unschool or you're child wouldn't learn or whatever. That's probably dead wrong. If any of us had to do it we probably would and or kids would probably play video games for 2 weeks straight and then get on with life and be fine. The real truth is we don't want to unschool, that we choose not to. Just like the truth with that school mom who says she could never homeschool is really that she chooses not to.

 

And that's fine. We generally choose what works for us and is comfortable for us. We also generally choose from options that are, on the whole, pretty decent and equal. Unschooling isn't some higher plane we need to excuse ourselves from because it just wouldn't work for us, it's just a good choice we balanced but ultimately didn't pick. There was another good choice that appealed to us more.

 

I've been a radical unschooler, unschooler, relaxed, eclectic and almost a formal schooler. What I've learned is none of those offers the Holy Grail or the Special Golden Guarentee of Education. None of them come without tradeoffs or benefits. None of them are superior to the other. All of them are just paths that we choose to walk and there is no need to think that because we choose one path that it's because we weren't capable of walking another.

 

We choose. That's fine. That's good and to acknowledge that is something most people these days can't manage so instead of explaining why something could never work for us why not acknowledge it probably could (because we're all caring and clever enough to make it work) but it's not what we're doing and be perfectly happy and secure with that?

 

(And now I have to admit that I often get big eyes and exclaim how I could never manage to be a school parent when talking with school parent friends. Must work on that :) )

[Denise in Florida]

I knew plenty of people who called themselves unschoolers but weren't what I would call it. That is because what they called unschooling is not using texts and tests. They did use plenty of learning materials even if they were not textbooks. They also did not simply let the kids watch tv or play computer games. I would really called them relzed homeschoolers and their kids were doing fine.

 

This is the type of 'unschooling' we do. I always say we are very relaxed and unschoolish. We don't generally use textbooks and we don't keep a schedule, but I do have a rough framework of scope and sequence that I try to work in with their interests and pursuits. I also take what they are already doing and see if I can frame it as a high school credit usually by asking them to document what they have learned, keep a resource list and produce some sort of concluding paper (essay).

[Denise in Florida]

Unschooling is fine, imo. It is simply trusting in how God created us. Children will learn naturally, through interest, in order to do something else they want to do.

 

Not disciplining is inappropriate, however. If children didn't need guidance, help, etc, they wouldn't be given to parents. It is irresponsible for a parent not to set out boundaries and enforce them. It is dangerous. And when we look at the results of hands of parenting, they are just as bad, sometimes worse, than harsh and abusive parenting. Children NEED discipline. There are aspects of discipline that average parents use that kids do not need (and that aren't really all that beneficial either), but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

 

Anyway, in our experience, schooling choice is on a circular continuum. Unschooling and classical education are pretty darn close to one another. That isn't always the case, I am sure, but it is the case for many unschoolers. The kids learn just as much, just differently and what they learn when is different. Of course, that is true across the education methods.

 

So for those who think, "they'd watch tv all day," could you unschool if unschooling didn't mean neglecting discipline? If your kids didn't have a tv at all or were limited? To be honest? My kids didn't start watching tv and playing video games to any real degree until we started using curriculum more traditionally. I think switching to more schoolish methods opened that door in our case. Before that, they were fine.

 

:iagree: I have tried to explain to some of my friends that there is a difference between unschooling and 'unparenting". Allowing a child to frame their own learning, to see learning as part of life instead of information in a textbook, is not the same as letting them raise themselves without guidance.

[Joy at Home]

I appreciate the concept of unschooling, although it usually means different things to different people. I thinks it can be a beautiful way of life for some families. I unschooled a few years when dd were younger and loved it. I can't imagine not pulling in more formal schoolwork by, say, third or fourth grade, though. That's just us. I'm not that creative and can get lazy when left to my own devices.

 

I used to belong to an unschooling board years ago or die hard unschoolers. Their philosphy encompassed more than education, but in all aspects of discipline. No rules, no bedtime, no restrictions on food, etc. They tended to be very outspoken and intolerant of anyone imposing any rules on their children. I would call this radical unschooling.

 

Blessings,

lisa

[Night Elf]

Just two things;...

 

It was much more than 2 things and I appreciate every single one of them!! You've said it all so much better than I was doing. Thank you, thank you, thank you. :hurray:

[LUV2EDU]

Just two things;

 

1)It's a Dr. Phil teaser. Dr. Phil. It's footage shot by his crew and edited by his crew to fit a story written by his crew. You're not seeing radical unschooling or the real life of Dayna Martin (the mom in the clip). You're seeing what the Dr. Phil shows wants you to see. Sheesh. Google Dayna Martin and judge from that. I'm pretty sure I was on an email list with her once and if I remember correctly she was a very caring, intelligent and common sense mom.

 

2) Drop the whole unstructured, undisciplined thing. We whine about how homeschoolers are portrayed as unsocialized or anti-social, we point out how those are baseless stereotypes from people who don't understand homeschooling but when we're talking about a sub-group of our own community...? We bring up baseless stereotypes based on a misunderstanding.

 

3) No need to say you could never unschool or you're child wouldn't learn or whatever. That's probably dead wrong. If any of us had to do it we probably would and or kids would probably play video games for 2 weeks straight and then get on with life and be fine. The real truth is we don't want to unschool, that we choose not to. Just like the truth with that school mom who says she could never homeschool is really that she chooses not to.

 

And that's fine. We generally choose what works for us and is comfortable for us. We also generally choose from options that are, on the whole, pretty decent and equal. Unschooling isn't some higher plane we need to excuse ourselves from because it just wouldn't work for us, it's just a good choice we balanced but ultimately didn't pick. There was another good choice that appealed to us more.

 

I've been a radical unschooler, unschooler, relaxed, eclectic and almost a formal schooler. What I've learned is none of those offers the Holy Grail or the Special Golden Guarentee of Education. None of them come without tradeoffs or benefits. None of them are superior to the other. All of them are just paths that we choose to walk and there is no need to think that because we choose one path that it's because we weren't capable of walking another.

 

We choose. That's fine. That's good and to acknowledge that is something most people these days can't manage so instead of explaining why something could never work for us why not acknowledge it probably could (because we're all caring and clever enough to make it work) but it's not what we're doing and be perfectly happy and secure with that?

 

(And now I have to admit that I often get big eyes and exclaim how I could never manage to be a school parent when talking with school parent friends. Must work on that :) )

 

Touché....

 

LUV2EDU

 

Quote:

 

Although unschooling will not work for my family, I wanted to be objective and get a better understanding on the subject. I don't want to do to unschoolers what the government is trying to do to homeschooling as a whole. KWIM

[Bess]

Dr. Phil is an idiot. What a hoot that they had one bitter homeschooler on there lamenting her teenage years. How many public schooled people could they have gotten lamenting *their* horrid highschool years?!!!!! MILLIONS. These types of shows make me mad.

[astrid]

And then I watched the video.....

 

OMG! Ummm...your 5 year old still drinks from a bottle. Wow. No punishment, no rules, no education. Eep.

 

I just googled the woman who was the guest on the Dr. Phil show and read some of her blog. Wow....she's a brave woman indeed; she lets her four year old stand at the stove and cook complete meals for the family and allows her ten year old son to build several fires every day, outdoors, unsupervised so she doesn't squelch his primal need to play with and explore fire.

 

I consider myself a pretty darn laid-back parent who is consciously raising a very "free-range" kid, but I just cannot wrap my head around this. There's unschooling, and then there's, well, I guess I"ll just shut up now.

 

More power to her--- but wow.

 

astrid

[LUV2EDU]

Dr. Phil is an idiot. What a hoot that they had one bitter homeschooler on there lamenting her teenage years. How many public schooled people could they have gotten lamenting *their* horrid highschool years?!!!!! MILLIONS. These types of shows make me mad.

 

Dr. Phil's show was biased.

 

On the 3rd video, a homeschool mom tried to explain that homeschoolers get plenty of opportunities to socialize. However, the woman representing the public schools did not like that. The public school woman's response was, "[but they're]... around other kids that are homeschooled." As if to assume that homeschoolers hang out with only homeschoolers and not public school kids. She was alluding to the fact that homeschoolers that socialize with other homeschoolers doesn't count as "true socialization". So I guess true socialization is when public school kids socialize with other public school kids.

 

3rd Video

 

 

She hasn't got a clue about homeschooling. She is only repeating what she has heard other anti-homeschoolers say. She needs to do her own research before opening her mouth.

 

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

 

-Abraham Lincoln

Edited July 9, 2009 by LUV2EDU

[AuntPol]

I think if you have the right parent and the right child, unschooling can be great. I have met one unschooling family that I think is fabulous. The mother is intelligent, organized, provides a learning rich environment (with NO tv in the house and very little computer). I have seen some brilliant ideas and truly inspirational ways of thinking on unschooling boards. It is definitely not without some merit with people willing to work at it. Unfortunately, these are not the majority of unschoolers.

 

However, most I meet IRL and online are not "up to par" in any way. I see quite a few mothers who either conflict avoiders and can't do a more traditional approach because they truly have no backbone to stand up to their kid or they are World of Warcraft addicts and claim to be unschooling so they can justifying playing that game all day long. I am on a board and a mother complained that she herself was tired of playing a certain video game all day long and she and her other kids wanted to do other things but one child wanted to play this game all day long. She wanted to limit it to 4 hours. She was lambasted. Apparantly video game playing children take priority over non-video game playing children in certain unschooling circles. All these kids are going to be video game designers according to these moms. (FTR, I have nothing against gaming and agree there is a lot to be learned in games, we are gamers here and play almost daily just not to exclusion of everything else while calling it school. I think you need other experiences to go with the gaming).

 

I like the principles of unschooling and child-directed learning, however it is not the ideal for our family. There are somethings that I feel need to be learned that some children will avoid because they are not fun to study and somethings I feel are best learned in a systematic way. Then there is my son with Aspergers who HATES everything new. If I unschooled him, he would never progress because new things are not in his interest. That said, we use a mostly Charlotte Mason approach which is not textbooky at all. My children have a lot of say in which books we read, which ones they read, which math program, etc. We try to keep homeschooling short and sweet so they have plenty of time to pursue their own interests as well as just play and be kids.

[LUV2EDU]

And then I watched the video.....

 

OMG! Ummm...your 5 year old still drinks from a bottle. Wow. No punishment, no rules, no education. Eep.

 

:iagree:This got me, also. Well, I hope she at least potty trained her.

[SherryTX]

The thing to know however, is that unschoolers don't look at long term goals but live in the here and now with their children. They celebrate everything whether it's seeing the awed look on a child's face when watching a beautiful butterfly, or discovering that letters and numbers can be manipulated to have all kinds of meanings. Editing to add: unschoolers just don't find an importance on prepping a child all during their childhood to become adults. It's seen as an act of robbing the children of some of their best living and loving years of their entire lives. Lots of unschoolers have ended up in the same places as traditional homeschoolers. They attend college and/or they get jobs. The difference is that they haven't lost passion about life. (Yes, I know that's a generalization which I'm sure many here will be quick to pick up on.) .

 

I bolded the points that - wow - I just really have to mull over here. There are many things here that you seem to be accomplishing that I think are important as well. Some great points, and I appreciate you bringing them up.

 

I do agree that many parents spend too much time worrying about preparing their children for the future - it starts in elementary school - to do well to get in various programs in middle school so they can get into AP programs for example in high school so they can do this and this and that to get into this college or that college...blah, blah blah! It can rob a kid of much of the joy they should get to experience as a child. But each child is different, and some thrive on that kind of life, so I would think those kids would still be pretty darn motivated whether they were unschooled, home schooled or in public or private schools.

 

I have a friend that was pretty much "unschooled". She went on to graduate college, spent some time in grad school and now is working as a teacher and assistant director at a Montessori school. She is one of the most fun, intelligent and balanced person I have ever met.

[Wildiris]

:lol::lol: I'm sorry but this is really funny! Being educated in a non-traditional way is not deviant behavior.

 

I wish, wish, wish people wouldn't equate unschooling with barefoot kids running through the streets like wild animals.

 

 

I am sure some would argue that "Radical Unschooling" is deviant behavior, and isn't that what Dr. Phil was driving at. He probably proved his point to a segment of his viewing audience. Even though it was a set up, the damage is done. People form their opinions based on shows like this. Did you do something to counter the program? Did you write an article demystifying unschooling for a wider audience and shed a light or did you just blog about to the already converted? How people define unschooling makes a difference. Showing a positive outcome makes a difference. It brings the idea some legitimace in the eyes of the sceptic. Rather than laugh at me, were you proactive and trying to make a difference in perception? After all, isn't that all Dr. Phil is dealing with is creating a perception.

 

I know people who pursued unschooling in the mid-80s. Kids running wild, barefoot and filthy like wild animals would be an apt descritpion. As adults they suffer from the handicap of not having an education that allows them to pursue a job as a fireman or in law enforcement because they do not possess the basic skills necessary to succeed or pass exams and life demands they work to support a family of their own. As parents they are some of the strictest, most structured parents I have ever encountered. Some of the other kids I watched grow up in very non-traditional unschooled environments hit thier teen years and went for the drug(s) of choice.

 

 

Does unschooling= a good outcome for a kid? Some kids really do need more structure to thier lives and without a solid stucture too many of these kids hit their teen years and drop into drugs and alcohol abuse. Perhaps not yours kids, but other kids. Sure some kids do find thier own way and become self directed and others don't.

[emmsmama]

Heh! Well, therein lies the part I can't do. My hair stood on end when the five-year-old shrieked at her about the bottle. I won't be a servant in my own house, but I'd love to relax a little more than I am now!

 

One thing I've noticed when a parent has a rather extreme belief in "respecting the child's own desires and needs", is that the parent's (or other people's) needs are often trumped by the child not having to comply to others' schedules, plans, ideals, etc.

 

I thought the same thing when I saw that part of the clip - why does "respect" for the child get to trump respect for the parent? I put the first "respect" in quotation marks because I don't think it's respectful toward kids and their needs to let them run the house. I am for respecting kids, but not if that means that you have to be a servant to them and let them treat you and each other however they feel like. So what if one kid is upset with the other and "needs" to smack them to get their frustration out? Obviously at some point the parent is going to have to step in and "make" the child do something they don't want to do. I don't spank and I'm not heavy-handed with discipline, but there are plenty of times when kids cross a line with their parents or with each other and parents need to provide proper boundaries and guidance, and sometimes discipline in those situations (discipline, not punishment).

 

With all that said though, I was VERY impressed with how composed and well-spoken the couple that was featured was. I read up a bit on that episode and how the audience was rigged, how Dr. Phil doesn't let the guests know what kinds of questions he is going to ask or even what direction he is aiming for the show to take. I watched the 5 parts of the show and also a 10 min. youtube clip from the woman who was the main guest, and she even said that she had no clue that she and her husband were going to be the main guests on the show until the day of the show itself! I'm not for radically unschooling, however she really handled herself extremely well and answered a lot of the questions (or should they be called attacks?) superbly. Props to her for doing such a great job!

 

The teacher in the audience sounded like a fool, as did the two parents that spoke that were sitting next to the one homeschooler. There was the one gal who spoke up about something about God and having to direct children and that made me cringe just because many people already have a misconception that people hs to keep their kids hidden from the world in religious bubbles. The school administrator (can't remember what exactly his position was) was well-spoken and it was nice that he said parents need to make the decision that is best for their kids. Overall, I think it's a very lucky thing that the main guests that were chosen were the ones chosen, because if they would have had someone less well-spoken as the main guests, the show could have been a complete train wreck for homeschoolers. The blond gal who didn't want her kids to go to school because she was afraid they'd get shot wouldn't have made a good main guest because her reason for hs'ing was too myopic.

 

I do think the main guest has a beautiful family and I agree with a lot of what she said, but I don't agree with radically unschooling as the full pkg. the way I understand it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I feel like my children and I can (and do) embrace many of the same things that the best of unschoolers embrace: a passion for knowledge, a desire to encourage my children to learn on their own and to take an interest and run with it.

 

I choose a parent directed learning model because there are subjects that my kids are not as interested in. Some, they have actually developed a passion for but they had to slog through some of the basics first to get to the "good stuff". My friend who unschools laments that she hasn't been able to coax her kids to slog through these very same basics.

 

I want my kids to have as many choices open to them as possible as they grow up. I understand that you can learn things later. I taught basic math to a 40 year old woman once who had cheated her way through math classes. But even though she could still learn it years later, her previous choices had hampered her in life.

 

I do believe that there is a standard (though there will be many different opinions on the exact specifications) of being "educated". I want my children to be "educated" at the end of high school even though I also want them to continue to life-long learners. My unschooling friend has no standard of what she wants her kids to learn by the end of high school. It is totally up to them.

 

There are limitations to the style of schooling that I have chosen. I want to make sure that I don't think that learning has to come from a textbook or even the "living" books that I have carefully chosen. I want to make sure that I take the time to chase those rabbit trails with my kids when they come up in our studies even if I might choose to take extra time so that I can do both the rabbit trail and the main trail.

 

(Oh, and Dr. Phil is not who I look to for information on any kind of homeschooling!)

[staceyobu]

Does anyone know what "studies" dr phil is referencing about homeschooling not being best for jr high age kids on up? FWIW, that was one of the crappiest interviews I've seen. I can't believe that you would do a show about homeschooling and not know the difference between unschoolers and homeschoolers. Heck, I know the difference and I don't even have a school age kid yet. The show was really about unschooling, not homeschooling. He should have done his homework before doing the show.

[LUV2EDU]

Does anyone know what "studies" dr phil is referencing about homeschooling not being best for jr high age kids on up? FWIW, that was one of the crappiest interviews I've seen. I can't believe that you would do a show about homeschooling and not know the difference between unschoolers and homeschoolers. Heck, I know the difference and I don't even have a school age kid yet. The show was really about unschooling, not homeschooling. He should have done his homework before doing the show.

 

Dr. Phil does not know anything about homeschooling. The writers and/or producers probably told him that "experts" have done research on this. It sounds like he was only repeating what he was told. He is just like a puppet on a string, "Dance puppet dance.":lol:

 

However, if I were on the show, they would have went to a commercial in a hurry. I would have asked Dr. Phil to name his source.;)

[funschooler5]

Does anyone know what "studies" dr phil is referencing about homeschooling not being best for jr high age kids on up?

 

 

Yes, I was wondering the same thing. He really likes to throw out "proof" like that, and move onto another subject before someone can call him on it. So annoying. :glare:

 

Shows like this really bother me, especially when they show footage of the families at home, with dramatic music playing in the background, edited to make them look really radical. I don't agree with everything the parents are doing, but you can't sum up their whole lives in a few minutes.

 

I liked how when Dr. Phil talked about not being able to help his 7th grader with his math, the dad said that he probably didn't need to use math of that level in his (Dr Phil's) line of work. The audience laughed and Dr. Phil kind of scoffed at him, but he was speaking the truth, obviously, if Dr. Phil really couldn't help his kid with math. (I should say here that we've been everything from unschoolers to school-at-homers, and have settled into ecclectic homeschooling. I do work to keep my kids at grade-level in math so they will be able to choose whatever career they'd like....But in the back of my mind I realize that most jobs are not going to require higher levels of math.)

 

An annoying show, all around. The homeschoolers were all very articulate, though. :001_smile:

[LUV2EDU]

The majority of Dr. Phil's audience felt public school was the best option. However, what I find interesting is that the majority of people on his message board did a poll and voted for homeschooling.

 

Poll results

http://www.drphil.com/polls/result/120/

[Geo]

 

In the idea that such children will grow up to be entreprenuers, I am very doubtful. Entreprenuers need even more self-discipline than the average company drone. My husband and all his brothers are business owners and they grew up with more structure and discipline than the average family.

 

 

Sorry, not necessarily true. First, I am not an unschooler, so no self-interest here. My husband grew up in a home where little guidance or parenting was available. Education was not valued in truest sense of the word. He ran amuck at a very young age, catching rattlesnakes for $$ was his first business at the age of eight. He was a true Huck Finn. He has an 8th grade education because he left home and went to work at 13. He is not ignorant. No, he's not very bookish, though he has read a few books I had lying around, such as: "The Great Divorce", "The Good Earth,", "Robin Hood" and a few others I can't remember. He prefers me to read to him though, and is my best student.:bigear: By his mid-twenties he was a master carpenter and was promoted to progect manager of a 200 home development in south FL. When we moved to NC, he built our 3-story home absolutely by himself, all phases: (carpentry, masonry, electrical, plumbing, roofing, drywall,siding AND some of the furniture inside it!) ...mostly out of pocket. When he found that carpentry didn't pay so well in our area he signed on as an electrician's helper. Within a month or two he'd impressed the boss well enough to be given jobs without the "electrician". Within a year he took the state test and became a licensed electrical contractor. He is an exceptionally successful man, and none of it was handed to him. Parents may help impart character, but ultimately the child chooses what kind of person he wants to be (his siblings are nearly homeless). The NEA thinks they are so wonderful...how would anyone learn without them?, blah, blah, blah. People have learned since creation because they were created for it...but we still have a choice. Even educated people can have poor character/integrity and make bad choices in life. It's not either/or. Neither do I believe any particular homeschool approach (or non-approach ) will produce a guaranteed "product", good or bad.

 

Geo

***I'd like to add that dh's confidence and ability to problem-solve is extraordinary. No one can claim to have made him what he is today (except God)...industrious. ambitious. honest... with a heap of character and integrity.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Geo

[Kathy in MD]

I just watched all 5 of the episodes on You Tube. That was a very interesting show to me. I started out with more of an unschooling approach, Montessori, child-led, but I have gone way to the other end. I direct my children in every way, because I have come to realize that they cannot direct themselves yet. They make poor choices when given so much freedom. They do better when I give them tasks, assignments, chores, and even direct their friendships to some extent in guiding them away from negative influences, and toward positive influences. That's where I'm at right now anyway. I'm guessing that as my children get into middle school & high school they will gain more freedom as I see that they are able to make good choices.

 

A side note about Montessori school. My ds was in Montessori from 3.5 - 13. Because of my ds's LD's, I became far more involved in Montessori than the average parent.

 

Montessori is not at all unstructured without guidance or assignments. Elementary students do have a fair amount of freedom **within very strict guidelines**. The teachers do assign work and lessons that the child might not request or even want. But the child typically can select how much time to work on a subject and also has plenty of time to explore his interests. And a child is given the freedom to make mistakes within those guidelines when he has the most time to recover, early childhood.

 

And the as the child matures and ages, he is given less freedom as academic demands increase. He is give more responsibility but less freedom. And when the dc enter puberty, their learning style changes and the program is no longer child-led. Young teens typically don't want to work and explore like younger children. At my ds's old school, Jr high is closer to a traditional school with a schedule (it's 9, its time for math).

 

I see Montessori as I see good unschooling. It's deceptively simple and seems to the efficiency expert to be unfocused and undirected. But it's not. It's carefully planned and is hard work for the teacher.

[Saille]

The majority of Dr. Phil's audience felt public school was the best option. However, what I find interesting is that the majority of people on his message board did a poll and voted for homeschooling.

 

Poll results

http://www.drphil.com/polls/result/120/

 

I suspect that's because there was a big flap about the episode at the time, and unschoolers/homeschoolers were being encouraged to vote in that poll.

 

I wonder how many unschoolers of the "running wild" variety also employ or like the concept of NCP, Non-Coercive Parenting. I've known several. I sort of loathe being in communities with NCPers, because I don't think community as it is typically set up in America considers it polite to engage in conflict resolution directly with a child that isn't yours, and that's what you have to do with an NCP child. The parents expect natural consequences to hone the child's behavior, and generally aren't terribly responsive if you go to them to describe a problem you're having.

 

Most of the homeschoolers in my immediate geographical area with kids my kids' age were unschoolers when I met them, and most of their kids went to school last fall, when they hit kindergarten age.

 

I do agree with the "walking encyclopedia" description, to a degree. We were straight unschoolers until maybe two years ago. We're somewhere between WTM and LCC, now. But yes, I find that I have to stay pretty well-rounded to be an interesting companion for kids with diverse interests. However, I also think that a crucial element to successful unschooling is the willingness to be enthusiastic and helpful about whatever interest is on tap...and I do think a LOT of school skills can be integrated into such studies/ensuing discussions, if the parent has a discerning eye and the role of trusted mentor.

 

Starting From Scratch, by Steven Levy, is an excellent book on this topic. He was a Waldorf teacher, then switched to public school, but what he did in his classroom was a fairly good approximation of what I mean when I describe "facilitated unschooling". The kids literally started the year in an empty classroom. No desks. Nothing. Everything rolled from there. Unschooling can be tremendously empowering and cultivate very responsible, self-directed individuals, but yes, I do think respect for the larger community (even when opting out of societal norms) needs to be a cornerstone value in any family.

[WishboneDawn]

It was much more than 2 things and I appreciate every single one of them!! You've said it all so much better than I was doing. Thank you, thank you, thank you. :hurray:

 

You're welcome. :)I got so carried away that I added a third thing and forgot to edit. :D

Edited July 9, 2009 by WishboneDawn

[Ellie]

The majority of Dr. Phil's audience felt public school was the best option. However, what I find interesting is that the majority of people on his message board did a poll and voted for homeschooling.

 

Poll results

http://www.drphil.com/polls/result/120/

 

That's because he stacked the audience with public school advocates. One of the hsers on his show that day posted on a Calif hs yahoo group about the whole experience, and it was enlightening...not about hsing but about how Dr. Phil manipulates the audience and the data and everything else. Ugh.

[nutmeg]

Slight rabbit trail...here is the experience of one homeschooling parent who was in Dr. Phil's audience that day: http://localhs.com/scuttle/2006/10/great-school-debate.asp

[Ginevra]

3) No need to say you could never unschool or you're child wouldn't learn or whatever. That's probably dead wrong. If any of us had to do it we probably would and or kids would probably play video games for 2 weeks straight and then get on with life and be fine. The real truth is we don't want to unschool, that we choose not to. Just like the truth with that school mom who says she could never homeschool is really that she chooses not to.

 

Well...I get what you're saying, and yes, I do get tired of hearing school parents say, "I could never homeschool..." as if I'm doing something magically special. I will rephrase it: I would never choose to be a radical unschooler. For starters, dh would mutiny; he's not a huge supporter of homeschooling in the first place and he would never permit me to say, No, I'm not teaching them anything in a directed way, we'll just explore whatever they wish to explore. More profoundly to the point, I would never choose the lifestyle of RU; the unlimited food access, sleeping/cleaning oneself as the child wishes, lack of help in ordering the home, etc. Raising children well is too important a job to just hope it all falls into place. I do know children who have this type of non-parent-directed schedule; one of them is in the top 3 most ill-behaved, horrid children I have ever known. To describe him as "running wild" would not be far from the truth. He has, IMO, been chronically overtired for his entire life and acts continually the way my children act when they are up far too late. (Running around hyperactively, hypersensitive to everything, overly physical, screaming...) Incidentally, another of my mentioned "top 3" also has a mother who honored her son's every wish (demand), no matter if his wishes meant someone else's rights were disregarded.

 

I believe that is a common outcome of lack of discipline (I don't mean punishment, I mean discipline in it's true form).

 

Also, IME, most of the unschoolish things I did earlier I regret. A small example was that I let dd pretty much self-teach writing letters. My view on it was, "Who says an "a" must be formed this specific way?" I do regret it, though, because her penmanship is not nicely done and I now feel we have to spend an inordinant amount of time rectifying her bad habits. However, I can see where one might say, "Who cares if she never has nice penmanship?" Well, the fact is, I care. She does not write attractively at age 12 and I think I let a faulty foundation be laid at 4 (she wrote early of her own choice).

 

By his mid-twenties he was a master carpenter and was promoted to progect manager of a 200 home development in south FL. When we moved to NC, he built our 3-story home absolutely by himself, all phases: (carpentry, masonry, electrical, plumbing, roofing, drywall,siding AND some of the furniture inside it!) ...mostly out of pocket. When he found that carpentry didn't pay so well in our area he signed on as an electrician's helper. Within a month or two he'd impressed the boss well enough to be given jobs without the "electrician". Within a year he took the state test and became a licensed electrical contractor.

 

You are almost describing my dh, Geo, except mine went into plumbing contracting. It is interesting this is the life your dh carved out for himself without parental guidance and much congradulations is due him. I stand by my belief that this is not the common result of being raised with lack of guidance and without discipline/structure coming externally. :001_smile:

[Makita]

I'm not going to analyze the details of each philosophy, but I do think our family takes little bits from each type.

 

I could not be a "radical unschooler", and I doubt I could meet most people's definitions of, um... "traditional unschooling" (?). But the idea of child-led learning is still very important to me. I let my kids direct as much of their learning as possible while also requiring them to learn and do certain things.

 

It's a happy medium in our house. :)

 

 

I was about to respond the same way. Perfectly said.

[JenniferB]

A side note about Montessori school. My ds was in Montessori from 3.5 - 13. Because of my ds's LD's, I became far more involved in Montessori than the average parent.

 

Montessori is not at all unstructured without guidance or assignments. Elementary students do have a fair amount of freedom **within very strict guidelines**. The teachers do assign work and lessons that the child might not request or even want. But the child typically can select how much time to work on a subject and also has plenty of time to explore his interests. And a child is given the freedom to make mistakes within those guidelines when he has the most time to recover, early childhood.

 

And the as the child matures and ages, he is given less freedom as academic demands increase. He is give more responsibility but less freedom. And when the dc enter puberty, their learning style changes and the program is no longer child-led. Young teens typically don't want to work and explore like younger children. At my ds's old school, Jr high is closer to a traditional school with a schedule (it's 9, its time for math).

 

I see Montessori as I see good unschooling. It's deceptively simple and seems to the efficiency expert to be unfocused and undirected. But it's not. It's carefully planned and is hard work for the teacher.

 

Yeah, I see what you're saying. In that case I would prefer a Montessori "school" to a Montessori style homeschool, at least as it looked in my previous attempts. :D I've studied Montessori for 3-6, and have my teacher's certificate, but I could not pull it off in my homeschool. To do it right it really does need to be in a school setting, with a hired teacher, who doesn't have babies to run after, meals to prepare, and laundry to fold. :lol:

[LUV2EDU]

Slight rabbit trail...here is the experience of one homeschooling parent who was in Dr. Phil's audience that day: http://localhs.com/scuttle/2006/10/great-school-debate.asp

 

Thanks for the link!

 

This answers my question. Dr. Phil rigged his show. His audience was filled with public high school kids. He wanted to make sure when he asked the question, "How many people are for....How many people are against," the majority would be against homeschooling.:glare:

[Night Elf]

I am sure some would argue that "Radical Unschooling" is deviant behavior, and isn't that what Dr. Phil was driving at.

And I am equally sure that some would argue that homeschooling in general is deviant behavior. Most of us don't pay attention to that garbage.

 

Rather than laugh at me, were you proactive and trying to make a difference in perception?

 

No, because I've seen what happens when someone puts themselves out there to make a statement. For example, Dayna Martin is a very awesome spokeswoman for unschooling, but look at how freaked out people are by her, even in this very thread. Sandra Dodd is another great spokeswoman for unschooling but there are people that hate her as well.

 

I acknowledge that I have no desire to go out and change the world's opinion about homeschooling. While I'm sure there are people on this board who make a concerted effort to improve the reputation of homeschooling, I am equally sure there are those like me who do not want to do that. I can't be intimidated and pushed into changing, no more than you can. Trying to make us feel guilty about not feeling the way you do is a tactic many people don't respond to.

 

As adults they suffer from the handicap of not having an education that allows them to pursue a job as a fireman or in law enforcement because they do not possess the basic skills necessary to succeed or pass exams and life demands they work to support a family of their own.

 

I've seen the same opinions addressed to homeschoolers by people who believe in institutionalized education. I've seen the same thing happen to kids in traditional schools. Again I ask, why are you singling out unsuccessful unschoolers over other unsuccessful people?

 

I call your argument a proof by assertion. Show me verifiable facts that this is true. One or two cases don't make a study.

 

Some of the other kids I watched grow up in very non-traditional unschooled environments hit thier teen years and went for the drug(s) of choice.

 

But we've seen and heard of people from traditional educated environments who hit their teen years and choose to do drugs. What makes the drug users from unschooling environments stand out more than drug users from other backgrounds?

 

too many of these kids hit their teen years and drop into drugs and alcohol abuse. Perhaps not yours kids, but other kids. Sure some kids do find thier own way and become self directed and others don't.

 

And, some kids from traditional educational backgrounds are self directed while others are not. I continue to be confused by your haranguing against one segment of homeschooling.

 

I will acknowledge some unschoolers turn out socially unacceptable, if you'll acknowledge that students from other educational philosophies turn out socially unacceptable. It's not an all or nothing thing. What offends me most if your attitude that unschooling only works for some people. There are homeschoolers who are equally offended when they are told that only certain people can homeschool and the rest are ruining their children's lives.

 

I'm only trying to say that it's not fair to dismiss the entire concept of unschooling because of the unsuccessful unschoolers you've known or heard about. If you can prove to me that all or the majority of unschoolers grow up without basic skills, I'll concede the argument. Equally, if anyone who disbelieves in general homeschooling can prove to me that all or the majority of homeschoolers grow up significantly less educated and skilled, I'll concede to their facts and put my kids back in traditional school.

[LUV2EDU]

I am sure some would argue that "Radical Unschooling" is deviant behavior, and isn't that what Dr. Phil was driving at. He probably proved his point to a segment of his viewing audience. Even though it was a set up, the damage is done. People form their opinions based on shows like this. Did you do something to counter the program? Did you write an article demystifying unschooling for a wider audience and shed a light or did you just blog about to the already converted? How people define unschooling makes a difference. Showing a positive outcome makes a difference. It brings the idea some legitimace in the eyes of the sceptic. Rather than laugh at me, were you proactive and trying to make a difference in perception? After all, isn't that all Dr. Phil is dealing with is creating a perception.

 

I know people who pursued unschooling in the mid-80s. Kids running wild, barefoot and filthy like wild animals would be an apt descritpion. As adults they suffer from the handicap of not having an education that allows them to pursue a job as a fireman or in law enforcement because they do not possess the basic skills necessary to succeed or pass exams and life demands they work to support a family of their own. As parents they are some of the strictest, most structured parents I have ever encountered. Some of the other kids I watched grow up in very non-traditional unschooled environments hit thier teen years and went for the drug(s) of choice.

 

 

Does unschooling= a good outcome for a kid? Some kids really do need more structure to thier lives and without a solid stucture too many of these kids hit their teen years and drop into drugs and alcohol abuse. Perhaps not yours kids, but other kids. Sure some kids do find thier own way and become self directed and others don't.

 

This statement would have one to believe that firefighters and anyone in law enforcement don't need an education. :confused:

[melissel]

This statement would have one to believe that firefighters and anyone in law enforcement don't need an education. :confused:

 

I think you're misreading that sentence. I think she's saying that unschoolers wouldn't have the education necessary TO BE those things, because they don't have the test-taking skills etc. At least, that's how I read it.

 

It's funny, there's a thread right now on my local HSing loop that's related to unschooling, and at least one person talked about her unschooled daughters: One has just wrapped up at a four-year college with an A average, and the younger (age 15) wanted to go to community college, so they spent a month or two brushing up on test-taking skills, and she came out of the hours-long placement tests with scores in the 90th-99th percentile for each subject area. I wish I could post her (long) post here, but I'd probably have to get permission for that. If anyone cares to read it, I could ask her. But it was funny that it was so timely. I rarely read those kind of threads on that loop.

[Kathy in MD]

Yeah, I see what you're saying. In that case I would prefer a Montessori "school" to a Montessori style homeschool, at least as it looked in my previous attempts. :D I've studied Montessori for 3-6, and have my teacher's certificate, but I could not pull it off in my homeschool. To do it right it really does need to be in a school setting, with a hired teacher, who doesn't have babies to run after, meals to prepare, and laundry to fold. :lol:

 

To tell the truth? As much as I admire the Montessori system, we do more traditional school at home ala WTM. :lol:

[Ginevra]

I'm only trying to say that it's not fair to dismiss the entire concept of unschooling because of the unsuccessful unschoolers you've known or heard about. If you can prove to me that all or the majority of unschoolers grow up without basic skills, I'll concede the argument. Equally, if anyone who disbelieves in general homeschooling can prove to me that all or the majority of homeschoolers grow up significantly less educated and skilled, I'll concede to their facts and put my kids back in traditional school.

 

I'm not wildiris, but I wanted to speak to this. I looked for years for a comprehensive study of unschoolers and how they fared educationally, but was never able to find one. If you know of one, I would love a link. What I did find, over and over, was a re-frame of how one ought not measure their child's knowledge against similar-aged peers and how many people who are sucessful did not go to college. To me, this is not evidence enough to stake my child's future on.

 

Baring a comprehensive study, all I have left is anecdote or observation. I would be happy to meet minions of knowledgeable, competant, well-behaved unschoolers, but it hasn't happened yet.

[Night Elf]

Baring a comprehensive study, all I have left is anecdote or observation. I would be happy to meet minions of knowledgeable, competant, well-behaved unschoolers, but it hasn't happened yet.

 

I'd like to meet minions of knowledgeable, competent, and well-behaved homeschoolers, but it hasn't happened yet. :tongue_smilie: Except of course all the people on this board, but does it count that I don't know any but 1 lady personally?

[Cheryl in NM]

***deleted***

 

Rethought the appropriateness of this post. So sorry. I should have just kept that to myself instead of posting it on a public forum.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Cheryl in NM

[BlsdMama]

No. I wouldn't unschool. I don't feel it's adequate preparation. That said, people have so warped the definition of unschooling that what one person does (relaxed schooling) they categorize as unschooling and are then insulted when someone like me says that unschooling isn't adequate preparation. :D

 

All that said, look, John Holt coined the term and the definition. Let's leave it as it is so it doesn't become broad so we understand what words actually MEAN!

 

And, yes, I blogged on quite a while ago. Link

[LUV2EDU]

I think you're misreading that sentence. I think she's saying that unschoolers wouldn't have the education necessary TO BE those things, because they don't have the test-taking skills etc. At least, that's how I read it.

 

It's funny, there's a thread right now on my local HSing loop that's related to unschooling, and at least one person talked about her unschooled daughters: One has just wrapped up at a four-year college with an A average, and the younger (age 15) wanted to go to community college, so they spent a month or two brushing up on test-taking skills, and she came out of the hours-long placement tests with scores in the 90th-99th percentile for each subject area. I wish I could post her (long) post here, but I'd probably have to get permission for that. If anyone cares to read it, I could ask her. But it was funny that it was so timely. I rarely read those kind of threads on that loop.

 

Thanks!:001_smile:

I reread it and realized I did read it wrong.