s/o - all you "non-spankers"...

[Tree House Academy]

And you shouldn't have to. Your request made perfect sense. :)

 

I have a question though. What about children who DON'T comply, despite spankings? What then? Would alternative means be used, or would the child be left to act as they please?

 

Typically, and maybe because we do not overuse the spanking, this has been a non-issue for us. In my older son's LIFE (10 years now), he has had about 15 spankings. This includes ones from his dad, myself, and his step-dad. We actually use a wooden paddle and we would NEVER remove clothing. (I find that degrading, personally, as my older son's dad's mother did this to him and even when he shared with me, I said, "ewwww!")

 

They way it typically plays out in our home is that my older son will push the buttons and the limits to the max. After trying time outs, removing privileges, and often many other things, I will announce the "that's it! You are getting a spanking." If we are home, I make sure I am calm. Sometimes, this means going in my room, closing the door and deep breating for 10 minutes! If we are in public, this tends to stop the behavior in anticipation, I guess (and maybe in hopes I will forget by the time we get home). Once I have calmed or we have gotten home, I send the younger one to his room (no "watching") and call older to come with me. Generally, he will stand at the table in the school room. We discuss what he did, the chances he had to correct the behavior, why he was not able to do this, what I expect the next time we approach this type situation, and anything else I think is important to dealing with the situation. He is told the number of times he will be spanked and then it is done. He is not allowed to just storm off and slam his room door. Once the spanking is done, he sits in the school room for 5-10 minutes to calm down or just think. When I return, it is his turn to talk to ME about why it got to this point and why he had to be spanked.

 

I guess, in our case, spanking is used as a last resort and the whole process involves more than just the spanking itself.

 

If the behavior were to continue, I would really have to take it on a case by case basis, I guess. I mean, if he was causing harm, then he would be dealt with much more strictly (on a 2nd offense) than if he was, say, smarting off. I try to make sure the "punishment fits the crime" so to speak.

 

I will also say that, the reason for this thread is because my older son is reaching an age where spankings are inappropriate. I would love some sage advice from moms with older kids who got through the teen years without spanking. We are actually seeing a therapist for help with his behavior. This is not an "easy" child by any stretch of the imagination. He is difficult, mouthy, loud, rude, you name it. He has his wonderful qualities too, don't get me wrong, but he is no cake walk where parenting is concerned.

 

Perhaps that last paragraph should have/could have been part of the OP.

[Tree House Academy]

Rebecca,

 

Two questions....

 

First, is this all hypothetical? Or are you struggling with the behavior of your 10yo?

 

Nope, not hypothetical at all. See post above for more specific answer.

 

Second, do you believe spanking is appropriate discipline for 10-12 yr olds? At what age is it inappropriate?

 

No, I really don't. That is actually why I posted this thread. My older ds is posing a lot of issues and spankings are getting less and less appropriate for him. I actually am seeking a therapist for him to help us deal with some of his issues in a different way now that he is older.

 

I still don't believe that spanking is wrong or bad - I did it when he was younger and had good results. I also do it on occasion with my younger (though he is a totally different child and he responds much better to other forms of discipline) still. But, with older ds, we are just reaching a different place in his life - with a whole new group of behavior issues...

[Pamela H in Texas]

Just to answer my own question in regards to disciplining preteens:

 

I'll be honest. Even if I believed in spanking (either rare or occasional), I can't imagine I'd still be doing it at 10-12 and certainly no later. I actually have some issues with it. But I guess my main concern would be how effective my discipline (including spanking) has been if I were STILL using it in double digits. By that time, I really hope that I have imparted discipline skills and tools for my KIDS to practice. To me, double digits is the time for them to practice THEIR skills rather than me controlling them externally (though some is still necessary to a degree depending on the individual child involved). Obviously they wouldn't be perfect, but they should have enough thinking ability, reasoning ability, problem solving skills, respect, self-control, self-discipline, etc that very little would be necessary in terms of discipline.

 

Discipline for the preteen and teen has included things like:

 

*have you brushed your teeth?

*you may play online after your work for the week is completed (screen limitations change from time to time)

*they make napkins for that (okay, I sigh and hate to admit THAT one)

*Ummmm, restate that

*yes, you have to wear a tie

*your turn (either for cooking supper or mowing)

 

Because we spent the time and effort on teaching early on, things are QUITE mild now. Well, it's also mild, I believe, because we never escalated it. A lot of people feel the need to escalate punishment as their kids grow because a light tap on the hands doesn't phase a 7yo like is does a 17month old. But we really wanted our children to respond to the lightest of consequences, as many as possible being completely natural or logical, because that is closer to real life for happy, healthy, well adjusted adults. You know, stuff like:

 

a dish is harder to wash if you leave it for a couple hours

your spouse may be upset with you temporarily

if you buy a smaller size package, you may be paying more long term (such as frozen veggies)

if you pay the water bill after the 10th, you pay a $10 late fee

you leave a light on, you pay a little more for electricity

if you eat too much, you have a tummy ache

if you run over your neighbor's chicken, you pay him what the chicken was worth and take him a homemade dessert

 

Seriously, how much punishment does a law-abiding citizen have overhead?

 

A lot of parents parent out of FEAR. They want their kid to experience a strong deterrent so they don't choose big consequences such as losing jobs due to irresponsibility, ending up in jail, etc. I don't parent as if those things are even something that are a possibility for my kids. I just assume that 1) I'm parenting kids who will grow up to do better than those things (do what is right because it's right and refrain from wrong because it's wrong) and 2) that my kids are smart enough to know that people who mess up that big have bigger consequences also. I mean, really, what 12yo doesn't know that if you run someone off the road, you're going to jail?

 

I hope some of this is helpful to someone. I realize Rebecca (or any one individual) may not be needing this but if someone that does need it sees it, I hope it's helpful.

Edited July 3, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[melissel]

Oh, and just to make myself really unpopular, the idea that a child never should cry makes my skin crawl with horror.

 

Imagine if at the end of your day you tried to express the fact that you were tired and your husband said, "Shhhhh!"

 

And then the next time you tried to explain how you felt he picked you up and rocked you but wouldn't let you say a WORD.

 

And no matter how much you just needed to express yourself, he kept doing whatever it took to shut you up - by feeding you, sticking a bottle in your mouth, changing your clothes and bouncing you up and down.

 

YIKES!!!

 

Of course you should comfort your baby as much as possible, but to imagine that a baby should go through its first year without ever crying? Dear me.

 

Jennifer, I rarely disagree with the things you post, but how you could possibly make a baby stop crying that didn't want to stop? With my first, every discomfort or insult could be solved by nursing--she'd probably still be doing it if she could. With my second, if she didn't want to nurse, she'd just open her mouth and scream some more. If she didn't want to be rocked or bounced, she'd squirm and twist in my arms and I'd stop. (Neither ever cried for wet diapers, even in cloth.) I can't imagine how you'd have a crying baby that you didn't try to comfort, and how you'd get her to stop if she wasn't actually comforted, short of duct tape. If you didn't try to nurse/rock/hold/change a crying baby and just assumed she needed to cry, how would you ever know what it was she was really needing? I'm so confused; maybe I'm missing something, but when I did what I needed to do for my babies, if they calmed and relaxed when I did it, I knew it was the right thing to have done. If they didn't, then yeah, they just needed to blow off steam. But how could you possibly know unless you tried other things first?

 

ETA: Again, I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone who has always heard from the majority of people that babies need to be left to cry, that they should learn that crying doesn't get you what you want, that they should cry for as long as it takes to fall asleep, that being left to cry teaches a lesson of some sort. My perception is that not that babies should never, ever cry. That's how they communicate and release stress. But I don't view it as some kind of infant lesson on life's hardships. I think babies should never have to cry if you are able to meet the need they're having.

Edited July 3, 2009 by melissel

[Pamela H in Texas]

Rebecca,

 

Now I'm thinking MY above post is inappropriate for your situation. If you'd like, I can respond to your new post.

[LibraryLover]

I do have a challenging teen child, and I have posted about dc before. Everything needs to be crystal clear. We need to remaim calm and steadfast. There is no long negotioation, no feeding into arguing, just perfect clarity. Even though the child might be verbally drooling, we know it's 99.99% show. Staying the course calmy, repeating our rule/concern/decision without putting it up for negotiation helps to center this child. If we struck, dc would be lost in anger and confussion.

 

As it is, dc has never once outwardly defied us. DC has never broken curfew, even. When dc abused cell phone privilieges one month, we took it away with nothing else as punishment. Dc has never abused cell priv again.

 

I really believe this child would harbor great resentment and inner pain if we were to physically punish. I think the fact that we have never done that has given dc a sense that we care about c's personal boundaries, which is very important to this introspective, sensitive child. We are coming to dc from a place of concern, not anger. We want to help dc grow, not cause physical pain.

 

I am not saying you should do it this way, I am telling you how we have chosen to do this.

Edited July 3, 2009 by LibraryLover

[Nakia]

I would be changing OBGYN's if that crap ever was said around me! I'm really, really, really, really sensitive to stuff like this because I'm one of the most passive, calm people on the face of the Earth and two of my babies have been.... how do I even describe them... terrors!

 

My third child had the worst case of colic I've ever heard of for months. He's now great (12 months old) but for 7 months my life was a living hell. Had nothing to do with me being calm :confused:

 

 

 

 

Ariana,

I am so sorry that you felt attacked by the OP. I can see that you are a wonderful mother, and I truly believe God gives each mother the perfect child for her.

 

My OBGYN is a wonderful Godly man, and he meant nothing by it. He was just being light hearted. And he knew he could say that to me because we are friends, and he knows my babies have been good babies. Please don't be offended by one thing I posted about someone you've never met. It's not worth it.

 

I do know what it's like to have a strong-willed child. When she was 5, I swore my oldest had been switched at birth. She was/is the most stubborn, independent, strong willed child on the planet. But I finally figured out God didn't make a mistake when He put us together, and He didn't make a mistake when He gave her the personality she has.

:grouphug:

[Jenny in Atl]

 

I will also say that, the reason for this thread is because my older son is reaching an age where spankings are inappropriate. I would love some sage advice from moms with older kids who got through the teen years without spanking. We are actually seeing a therapist for help with his behavior. This is not an "easy" child by any stretch of the imagination. He is difficult, mouthy, loud, rude, you name it. He has his wonderful qualities too, don't get me wrong, but he is no cake walk where parenting is concerned.

 

Perhaps that last paragraph should have/could have been part of the OP.

 

Ya, very soon he will be stronger than you and physical punishment will not be possible. He may even challenge his dad or step dad physically. Your situation does not sound easy (divorce, multi parents, and I'm guessing much more than you are sharing). I think you all are doing the right thing looking for outside help. Sounds like lack of respect issues (all parties) are involved. Has his diet been explored too? It sounds silly, but many kids react to chemicals in foods. I've had friends that has seen a total change in their boys when certain foods were removed from their diets.

 

I wish I could help more... My 13 year old is very mature & respectful. I don't know if my kids are this way because of how I have raised them, or if I'm just (lucky):D. I do know that I have treated them with a great deal of respect, and realized how little say they had/have in choices which effect their lives. So I made a point of trying to give them simple things they could choose from, gave them some say over their lives from an early age. I don't know... family and parenting are so complex these days, and I have no magic bullet. Just thankfully, so far, I've had an easy run despite the girl's health issues.

[SonshineLearner]

No, I really don't. That is actually why I posted this thread. My older ds is posing a lot of issues and spankings are getting less and less appropriate for him. I actually am seeking a therapist for him to help us deal with some of his issues in a different way now that he is older.

 

 

Hey There,

I think family dynamics play a huge part in how families work. Like I said. If I had only my two oldest (which I've over half raised since 6 and 9) I would think that parenting is just a breeze. If you add in my youngest, I'd still think I was pretty darn good (He's 6). Since I have my 10 year old (almost 11) I know that some of how kids turn out is their personality and what you think your parental responsibility is. I thought I'd do everything right. I nursed and stayed home till she was 1...went to work when she was one for 2 years. (and still nursed till she was 3). I wore her in a sling almost all the time, instead of a stroller. I let her sleep with me for much of her life before she was 3. I stayed in the same town...so stability. She's never lived with her dad. My husband has been her dad since 3. I read every child rearing book since I was babysitting. (you know...most of those kids really listened to me)

But, my 10 year old keeps me humble. She looks pretty good when she's out. At home, she's set in well as the brat. I find that if I act in ways I think of as "mean" and really strict, she's actually better. The harder I am.... the sterner I talk and act... the better she responds. HOW SAD! This isn't a child who needs a therapist. This is a child that needs to want to do right. She has the ability, the smarts, the everything... as she chooses.

Humble.... Some of you...if you had another child...would change the way you deal with them. It's easy...peasy...with some.... And....for those parents...you have no idea...

 

Carrie

[SheWillFly]

(I only read the OP. I might or might not go back and read everything else.)

 

I have been a parent for 7 years. Do with that info what you want. We do not spank our children. Thing is I was not spanked as a child either. I also was not what we'll call an "easy" child. So there isn't that confusion of wondering if I needed to be spanked. I was not compliant or cooperative. I was high energy, highly opinionated and very bright. It would have been easier to try and spank all of that out of me but instead my parents worked with me to tune up all of those traits so that I could success as an adult. I'm shooting for the same thing with our children. It is exhausting! My parents admit that it was exhausting but they also agree that it was worth it to see who I am today.

[fivetails]

if you run over your neighbor's chicken, you pay him what the chicken was worth and take him a homemade dessert

 

There's a really bad chicken-crossing joke in there somewhere. :tongue_smilie:

[Loupelou]

I can't speak to anyone else, but when I resort to spanking it's because I've lost control, not because my child has. I'm spanking because I'm angry, because nothing else has helped. And later, I feel terrible.

 

So the key to me is to keep my emotions under control--even Spock-like control, if possible--whenever disciplining my children. I've found the 1-2-3 Magic method works well for me and my kids in deescalating 99% of situations before they would ever get to the spanking stage.

:iagree:

 

I have spanked maybe a handful of times during my years of child rearing and I know it has only been when I lose control of my emotions and the situation.

 

Mine are 15,13,10,8,6,4,9 mos.

[LibraryLover]

Hey There,

I think family dynamics play a huge part in how families work. Like I said. If I had only my two oldest (which I've over half raised since 6 and 9) I would think that parenting is just a breeze. If you add in my youngest, I'd still think I was pretty darn good (He's 6). Since I have my 10 year old (almost 11) I know that some of how kids turn out is their personality and what you think your parental responsibility is. I thought I'd do everything right. I nursed and stayed home till she was 1...went to work when she was one for 2 years. (and still nursed till she was 3). I wore her in a sling almost all the time, instead of a stroller. I let her sleep with me for much of her life before she was 3. I stayed in the same town...so stability. She's never lived with her dad. My husband has been her dad since 3. I read every child rearing book since I was babysitting. (you know...most of those kids really listened to me)

But, my 10 year old keeps me humble. She looks pretty good when she's out. At home, she's set in well as the brat. I find that if I act in ways I think of as "mean" and really strict, she's actually better. The harder I am.... the sterner I talk and act... the better she responds. HOW SAD! This isn't a child who needs a therapist. This is a child that needs to want to do right. She has the ability, the smarts, the everything... as she chooses.

Humble.... Some of you...if you had another child...would change the way you deal with them. It's easy...peasy...with some.... And....for those parents...you have no idea...

 

Carrie

 

I am very humble. I have an extremely challenging child. I must be very firm and clear. It's not easy to be the parent these kids need (my thrid child). But I know I can parent my challenging child without hitting. I have been doing it, and I know the child is better off not having been spanked. It's not a place I will ever go.

 

The child is already a teen and it was never an option and never will be. I don't care what corner I'm in, I will not deal with the behavior by being physical. If you want to talk about parenting challenging children without spanking, I'd love to continue, or we can take it to pm.

 

But please, please, pleae do not think those of who decided never to spank are not humbled to our core by our challenging children.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Originally Posted by Pamela H in Texas View Post

if you run over your neighbor's chicken, you pay him what the chicken was worth and take him a homemade dessert

There's a really bad chicken-crossing joke in there somewhere.

 

LOL....just worried about running over chickens of a neighbor years ago and still like the example. I guess a more common situation would be breaking the neighbor's window with a baseball, huh?

[Pamela H in Texas]

But please, please, please do not think those of who decided never to spank are not humbled to our core by our challenging children.

 

A lot of people with challenging kids learn to discipline better BECAUSE they have challenging kiddos. That was my situation. It was easy to be the perfect parent with the easy kiddo. I could have done just about anything with the easy kiddo. I'm sure there are still benefits to better parenting, but kids like that are going to be okay no matter what. But challenging kids only have the same 16-21 years that every other child has but a few more obstacles. They require us to step up our game. The sooner we realize it, the better. It's a lot easier to change directions at 2 than 10, for example. But those first 10-12 years just ARE going to be pretty difficult and they still may need us to be more mindful when they are older. But hopefully, if we give them the time and effort they deserve, we'll help them considerably and they won't have as much difficulty, especially between age 16 and 24 (which is a time young adults tend to struggle with real life a little anyway).

[SonshineLearner]

I am very humble. I have an extremely challenging child. I must be very firm and clear. It's not easy to be the parent these kids need (my thrid child). But I know I can parent my challenging child without hitting. I have been doing it, and I know the child is better off not having been spanked. It's not a place I will ever go.

 

The child is already a teen and it was never an option and never will be. I don't care what corner I'm in, I will not deal with the behavior by being physical. If you want to talk about parenting challenging children without spanking, I'd love to continue, or we can take it to pm.

 

But please, please, pleae do not think those of who decided never to spank are not humbled to our core by our challenging children.

 

I love to look at other's suggestions:-) I never said you weren't humble:D

I'm just saying that I know SOME kids wouldn't ever push enough to get a "spank" because I've been with enough to know that some really are just pleaser. I nannied children without ever spanking, and they were great for me. (horrible for their parents)

 

My daughter really is too big for spanking to be a part of our discipline. I read Love and Logic when my first was a teen. (A Goodwill find) My oldest (step) really only has a problem with us needing to let her fall so she can become self reliant.

 

With Love and Logic read, I I just need to figure out how to help her (my almost 11 year old) for the next 7 years:-) I would love to have the ease of what I have for the older two.

 

BUT, I know that if we can be patient and keep trying to help her keep herself in line...she's gonna turn out to be a great adult. She just internal need to please me. (she is not a people pleaser) Except for my mom, which is amazing. My mom is very persistent and a real rule keeper and it's funny....They do great with each other. (Of course, if they lived together, It might be different)

 

Anyway, right now my daughter is with her dad. I miss her terribly. BUT, I have to say that this has been a very boring, easy, two weeks...

 

But yes, Any hints from anyone are always welcomed. For how to get school done, for them not yelling, etc....

 

Carrie

[moki4]

Yes for attachment parenting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ravin]

My daughter is five. My stepsons, who have also never been spanked, are 13 and 11 and very well behaved young men.

 

I have a friend with 4 kids who has also never spanked them, her oldest is 12.

 

My sister J has also never spanked her daughter, who is 13.

[phathui5]

Non-spanker here.

 

My kids are:

 

8yo, 5yo, 3yo, almost 2yo

 

The children I watch (I do childcare) range from 5 months to 12 years.

[LibraryLover]

I love to look at other's suggestions:-) I never said you weren't humble:D

I'm just saying that I know SOME kids wouldn't ever push enough to get a "spank" because I've been with enough to know that some really are just pleaser. I nannied children without ever spanking, and they were great for me. (horrible for their parents)

 

My daughter really is too big for spanking to be a part of our discipline. I read Love and Logic when my first was a teen. (A Goodwill find) My oldest (step) really only has a problem with us needing to let her fall so she can become self reliant.

 

With Love and Logic read, I I just need to figure out how to help her (my almost 11 year old) for the next 7 years:-) I would love to have the ease of what I have for the older two.

 

BUT, I know that if we can be patient and keep trying to help her keep herself in line...she's gonna turn out to be a great adult. She just internal need to please me. (she is not a people pleaser) Except for my mom, which is amazing. My mom is very persistent and a real rule keeper and it's funny....They do great with each other. (Of course, if they lived together, It might be different)

 

Anyway, right now my daughter is with her dad. I miss her terribly. BUT, I have to say that this has been a very boring, easy, two weeks...

 

But yes, Any hints from anyone are always welcomed. For how to get school done, for them not yelling, etc....

 

Carrie

 

Well, I cannot say that she never yell or always do school in a totally timely manner. lol I mean, my dc mostly always does what needs to be done, but not always without a bit of commentary.

 

However, my goal, and yours may be different, is not to stop any and all fussing. Oh sure, there is a line, but for some children, fussing is part of it all. They need to be heard, they need to feel some bit of power.

 

My reaction to this is to stay calm. Repeat what needs to be done and let it go. You can decide what the consequences are if things are not done. Knowing that, I can concentrate on not engaging. Arguing does not change the outcome for dc, or my decision. Say what you need/expect, understanding the child's needs, strengths and limitations and leave it.

 

Some kids like to get in the last word. With this, I often pick my battles. As long as dc not rude or defiant, I even speak knowing I will acquiesce the last word. As in:

 

Me: You want to make sure you are not the only one always unloading the dishwasher.

DC: Yeah, I always have to unload the dishwasher. Nobody else in this family but me unloads the doshwasher, ever!

Me: You don't want to be the only one who unloads the dishwasher.

DC: That's right, I don't.

Me: Ok

DC: OK (last word , harms nobody and is not rude).

 

I mean, it's 100% pointless and a waste of my energy to keep pointing out that everyone has a night to unload. The dc knows it. But for whatever reason-- anxiety, worry, hormones etc. the dc can't easily stop moaning. I could punish, I could spank, I could drag it out, but the dc knows as well as I do that dc is being cantankerous. I can also see that with maturity, this lessons. Dh and I have also seen that the calmer we are, the calmer the child is. Not upping dc's tension and inner turmoil with threats and yelling helps to keep the child much calmer and more focused.

 

I also spend a lot of time discussing apporpriate expectations and how dc is part of this family & certain things simply must be done. Everything needs to be crystal clear and calm. I am not suggesting highly sensitive children don't take a bit more creativity to handle without losing it.

 

When those basics are not done, we have to make a plan. It might be to disallow a priviliege. It just doesn't involve hitting the dc. I know some folks would not deal with all of this 'rigamarole" but hitting is not an option for us.

Edited July 3, 2009 by LibraryLover

[myfunnybunch]

No spanking here.

 

Kids' ages in signature.

 

Cat

[hmschoolmom22]

my girls are almost 13 and 8 yrs old.

 

I have never spanked and will never spank, don't believe in it!!

[JennifersLost]

Jennifer, I rarely disagree with the things you post, but how you could possibly make a baby stop crying that didn't want to stop? With my first, every discomfort or insult could be solved by nursing--she'd probably still be doing it if she could. With my second, if she didn't want to nurse, she'd just open her mouth and scream some more. If she didn't want to be rocked or bounced, she'd squirm and twist in my arms and I'd stop. (Neither ever cried for wet diapers, even in cloth.) I can't imagine how you'd have a crying baby that you didn't try to comfort, and how you'd get her to stop if she wasn't actually comforted, short of duct tape. If you didn't try to nurse/rock/hold/change a crying baby and just assumed she needed to cry, how would you ever know what it was she was really needing? I'm so confused; maybe I'm missing something, but when I did what I needed to do for my babies, if they calmed and relaxed when I did it, I knew it was the right thing to have done. If they didn't, then yeah, they just needed to blow off steam. But how could you possibly know unless you tried other things first?

 

ETA: Again, I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone who has always heard from the majority of people that babies need to be left to cry, that they should learn that crying doesn't get you what you want, that they should cry for as long as it takes to fall asleep, that being left to cry teaches a lesson of some sort. My perception is that not that babies should never, ever cry. That's how they communicate and release stress. But I don't view it as some kind of infant lesson on life's hardships. I think babies should never have to cry if you are able to meet the need they're having.

 

Oh, I don't think I was being clear.

 

With my first - I never wanted to hear him cry, so it took hours and hours to get him to sleep, and if I wasn't holding him every minute he'd wake back up again. Since he didn't learn to fall asleep on his own as a baby, he couldn't do it as a toddler, either. We all suffered for years.

 

After that, I changed the way I got my other kids to sleep. I nursed them, burped them, nursed again, burped, rocked, held and got them all snuggly tired.

 

And then I put them down (this is a few months in, btw....). The first time they cried for awhile, and then fell asleep. The second time they cried a little less, etc., etc. Before long they got to the point where they squawked for a minute or two and fell asleep. They never had any problem sleeping as toddlers and even though I had four kids eventually, my whole bedtime routine took as long as the book I was currently reading to them plus 2 minutes for kisses.

 

That. Was. It.

 

My friends who did the family bed thing...or the no cry thing....took hours. And hours. And they had to all go to bed at the same time. Never a minute alone. Ever.

 

I'm an introvert. I need several hours alone a day or I go nuts. I needed my kids to go to sleep at predictable times in the evening; several hours before I did.

 

I don't feel that I psychologically damaged my kids in any way during this process. All I did was teach them to fall asleep.

 

I never let a baby cry while he was awake and obviously needing something (including just attention). I'm just talking about letting a baby cry a bit before falling asleep.

[JennifersLost]

 

Some kids like to get in the last word. With this, I often pick my battles. As long as dc not rude or defiant, I even speak knowing I will acquiesce the last word. As in:

 

Me: You want to make sure you are not the only one always unloading the dishwasher.

DC: Yeah, I always have to unload the dishwasher. Nobody else in this family but me unloads the doshwasher, ever!

Me: You don't want to be the only one who unloads the dishwasher.

DC: That's right, I don't.

Me: Ok

DC: OK (last word , harms nobody and is not rude).

 

 

 

See, I think this is another one of those personality things. It works for some families and not others. I think some parents like this kind of interaction. Some parents are just more talkative than others; the back and forth is comfortable and enjoyable.

 

I actually did this kind of parenting for several years, but I found every one of these interactions to be the mental equivalent of being rubbed with industrial grade sandpaper.

 

And when I snapped, which I always eventually did, the repercussions were way worse for the kid than if I'd just parented him more directly in the first place.

[LibraryLover]

See, I think this is another one of those personality things. It works for some families and not others. I think some parents like this kind of interaction. Some parents are just more talkative than others; the back and forth is comfortable and enjoyable.

 

I actually did this kind of parenting for several years, but I found every one of these interactions to be the mental equivalent of being rubbed with industrial grade sandpaper.

 

And when I snapped, which I always eventually did, the repercussions were way worse for the kid than if I'd just parented him more directly in the first place.

 

I am directly parenting. I don't have any idea what you mean by this. Or if it's just snark because you disagree.

 

I am not a snapper, of course. Plus, if 'directly parenting' means striking the child, I wouldn't consider that an option for our family. Are you a spanking family?

[LibraryLover]

Here's another thing that is different for all families. I never once let my children cry themselves to sleep. I would never do it. None of my kids took hours to fall asleep.

 

if you mean a minute of unwinding fuss, I cold go for that, but if you are talking about crying themselves to sleep and walking away? That's way beyond my comfort zone and was totally not necessary for us. Dh was never into that either. I am glad I never did it.

 

 

 

Oh, I don't think I was being clear.

 

With my first - I never wanted to hear him cry, so it took hours and hours to get him to sleep, and if I wasn't holding him every minute he'd wake back up again. Since he didn't learn to fall asleep on his own as a baby, he couldn't do it as a toddler, either. We all suffered for years.

 

After that, I changed the way I got my other kids to sleep. I nursed them, burped them, nursed again, burped, rocked, held and got them all snuggly tired.

 

And then I put them down (this is a few months in, btw....). The first time they cried for awhile, and then fell asleep. The second time they cried a little less, etc., etc. Before long they got to the point where they squawked for a minute or two and fell asleep. They never had any problem sleeping as toddlers and even though I had four kids eventually, my whole bedtime routine took as long as the book I was currently reading to them plus 2 minutes for kisses.

 

That. Was. It.

 

My friends who did the family bed thing...or the no cry thing....took hours. And hours. And they had to all go to bed at the same time. Never a minute alone. Ever.

 

I'm an introvert. I need several hours alone a day or I go nuts. I needed my kids to go to sleep at predictable times in the evening; several hours before I did.

 

I don't feel that I psychologically damaged my kids in any way during this process. All I did was teach them to fall asleep.

 

I never let a baby cry while he was awake and obviously needing something (including just attention). I'm just talking about letting a baby cry a bit before falling asleep.

[melissel]

Oh, I don't think I was being clear.

 

Ah, I see now. I knew I must not be getting something right!

[Guest Katia]

I have a 24yo....20yo......and 17yo.

 

The 24yo was spanked once a week until he was 9yo by my dh. He thought ds ''needed" a weekly spanking to be controlled.

 

I was never comfortable with this, but went along with the 'dh is head of the house' Christian thing and let him do it. However, I put an end to it when ds hit 9yo. I just couldn't stand it anymore.

 

20yo and 17yo have never been spanked.

 

All are great young adults; successful in college, business, etc.

[chaik76]

I highly doubt AP (attachment parent) parents would ever spank their children. We do not even let our children cry! If they did, like posted earlier, it was a loss of "their" control, and they regretted it.

 

I don't have any negatives with non-AP parents. Just saying I'm surrounded by this philosophy online and with real-life friends.

I know AP parents who spank.

[melissel]

Here's another thing that is different for all families. I never once let my children cry themselves to sleep. I would never do it. None of my kids took hours to fall asleep.

 

I was the same way. I'm an introvert too, but for the first 2-3 years of their lives, it was physically painful for me to hear them cry. Literally, it felt like my chest would explode, and if someone tried to prevent me from getting them, I would go nearly blind with anger. That's just how it was for me, and it was less painful to honor that than it was to have less time to myself. Though I found cosleeping and nursing to sleep SO easy--I even read while I was nursing them down, and it was often the only period of rest I'd get each day. After they fell asleep in the family bed, I put up the bedrail and went back out to do my thing. When it came time to move them to their own beds, they were old enough to know how to drop off on their own. Sometimes there needed to be transitioning, but it was really pretty easy

 

However, while I feel almost as strongly about CIO as I do about spanking, as an introvert, I so recognize the feelings of rage and depression the desperate need for a little peace can bring on (I face them often these days, actually). It's a complicated issue, for sure, and if I were faced with probably depression (in my case) and CIO, I'm pretty sure I'd choose CIO too.

[jujsky]

Interesting. I have the opposite view of spanking. I think if you are going to use it at all, it should be used from about 18 months to 4 years. The older the child is, the less appropriate spanking is (except for little babies).

 

Ideologically, I'm opposed to spanking, but my practice does not always live up to my values.:(

 

:iagree:

[Alicia64]

In the Little House on the Prairie books that we just finished reading (again), Pa would "whip" Laura for hitting Mary.

 

So. . . he would hit Laura. . . because Laura hit Mary. :glare:

 

My boys are six and I've never hit them. One is extremely spirited and has been since day 1 and the other needs very little to make a change in his behavior.

 

Frankly, they both would probably vote for being hit vs. losing their Magic School Bus half hour. Taking that show away works wonders.

 

Alley

[jujsky]

Oh no dear, I spank my kids. I likely will until I feel they are too old to receive them. I just don't value terribly the opinion of inexperienced parents.

 

I find this to be quite condescending. Maybe this is just a hot-button issue for me because I've listened to my IL's shove this whole "life experience" argument down my throat for the last 10 years, so this "more experienced" argument makes me cringe. I don't necessarily think the amount of time one is a parent means that they are a more experienced parent. People have different experiences parenting, different children, and different approaches to how they handle things. Some parents may have an extremely difficult small child (raising my hand) so the experience of someone with, say, an extremely difficult 5 year-old, may be greater than that of a parent with an extremely easy 10 year-old. It's the situations we deal with as parents that make us more experienced -- not the number of years. Don't be so quick to discount those of us with small kids because it's quite possible that some of us are far more experienced with certain aspects of parenting than you are.

[RegularMom]

I will also say that, the reason for this thread is because my older son is reaching an age where spankings are inappropriate. I would love some sage advice from moms with older kids who got through the teen years without spanking. We are actually seeing a therapist for help with his behavior. This is not an "easy" child by any stretch of the imagination. He is difficult, mouthy, loud, rude, you name it. He has his wonderful qualities too, don't get me wrong, but he is no cake walk where parenting is concerned.

 

Perhaps that last paragraph should have/could have been part of the OP.

 

Indeed. That would have elicited a significantly different response from me.

[RegularMom]

From a non-spanking perspective, I can say simply that the discipline situation never even escalates into physical repurcussions. My younger dd is often a challenge when it comes to discipline, and rather than spank, we simply shut down all of her desirable activities. If she doesn't comply, the privledges and activities she enjoys are simply removed until she complies.

 

I suppose I could get there faster with her if I spanked her. But it would add a focus to the disciplining moment that I don't want to distract from the teaching moment.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Rebecca,

 

Could you outline what types of issues cause problems with your 10yo? And what that looks like? Maybe include your initial response or two also?

 

Like saying that ds has an attitude isn't a whole lot of help for us to give you a few ideas. Saying that he outright REFUSES to get in the shower is more helpful. You can then say HOW he refuses and what your first response to that is and then what you do from there.

 

Obviously, you probably will only give 2 or 3 examples but a lot of time, concepts can be carried from one specific issue to another....or you can later, if you deem us worthy of listening to, ask for help on a couple more examples.

 

It's just REALLY hard to give ideas when the situation is soooooooo broad. But usually a few examples will give you an idea whether you want to try our ideas. And it gives us something more concrete to work on rather than vague theory (like my last long post). Also, my last long post outlined goals for where a 10-12 yr old would be but that is assuming being brought up like this where you are making changes with a 10yr old which is quite a bit different.

 

One beginning thought/question? Is is possible that you haven't been strict enough with this child? A lot of people who use punishment regularly tend to think they are pretty strict, but my experience (fostering, parent coaching, child care, people watching) shows just the opposite. A LOT of people who use punishments (yelling, time out, spanking, taking unrelated items/privileges, etc) struggle with being firm enough and/or consistent enough. And most more challenging kiddos NEED parents to be EXTRA firm and consistent.

 

Anyway, I just hope to be of help. I personally LOVE this topic. I love children and want to be helpful to people. And I'm so glad people helped me because raising a challenging kiddo IS difficult. It's nice to have a hand up.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

My children are 12, 4.5 and 3.

 

 

I can't get over the fact that if I hit an adult it's called "assault", but if I hit a kid I can call it "spanking" and not be charged with assault.

 

 

??? :confused:

[Tammyla]

Dd 14 & ds is 12 and have turned out to be very well mannered and self regulated without spanking.

[BalanceSeeker]

I always said I'd never spank. Like I said in the other thread, I never had to spank my first two dc.

 

I *hate* spanking. Biblically, I think the rod may not be meant literally, as many interpret it. I don't know, I'm not a scholar, just a lay person.

 

However, I started spanking my third for severe infractions 6 months ago because it is the ONLY form of discipline that gets her attention. Nothing.Else.Does. But, I feel so guilty about it that I don't think I can continue. And, I do it in a controlled fashion without being angry, etc. Still, spanking makes me feel like a failure as a parent.

[Jorsay]

My children are 12, 4.5 and 3.

 

 

I can't get over the fact that if I hit an adult it's called "assault", but if I hit a kid I can call it "spanking" and not be charged with assault.

 

 

??? :confused:

 

It is a common and important legal point known as "intent"

[Tree House Academy]

Hey There,

I think family dynamics play a huge part in how families work. Like I said. If I had only my two oldest (which I've over half raised since 6 and 9) I would think that parenting is just a breeze. If you add in my youngest, I'd still think I was pretty darn good (He's 6). Since I have my 10 year old (almost 11) I know that some of how kids turn out is their personality and what you think your parental responsibility is. I thought I'd do everything right. I nursed and stayed home till she was 1...went to work when she was one for 2 years. (and still nursed till she was 3). I wore her in a sling almost all the time, instead of a stroller. I let her sleep with me for much of her life before she was 3. I stayed in the same town...so stability. She's never lived with her dad. My husband has been her dad since 3. I read every child rearing book since I was babysitting. (you know...most of those kids really listened to me)

But, my 10 year old keeps me humble. She looks pretty good when she's out. At home, she's set in well as the brat. I find that if I act in ways I think of as "mean" and really strict, she's actually better. The harder I am.... the sterner I talk and act... the better she responds. HOW SAD! This isn't a child who needs a therapist. This is a child that needs to want to do right. She has the ability, the smarts, the everything... as she chooses.

Humble.... Some of you...if you had another child...would change the way you deal with them. It's easy...peasy...with some.... And....for those parents...you have no idea...

 

Carrie

 

I absolutely agree. We parent both of my kids the same way. The most clear line is that my older son was 3 when dh and I married and younger son belongs to dh. I fear that many of older son's issues come from deep seated issues from the divorce, his dad, and his own feelings of abandonment. My ex thinks I am nuts because older ds has been with dh and I in a stable environment for most of his life. It is likely he doesn't even remember his dad and I being married. However, this child has ANGER issues. Today, for instance, he got mad at younger ds because younger ds pushed past him to get a cup and older ds picked up a FORK in a threatening manner as if to say, "come on...keep talking." It baffles me. When we talked to older ds about it, he response was, "well, I wasn't going to hurt him...I was just mad." That is really NOT okay. Not in the least, not at all, not even kind of okay...sometimes. I was floored. He has reached a new level here and I am at a loss other than to invite a therapist into my life and ask for help. Like you said...it is humbling.

 

That said, my younger son is parented the same way. He has been spanked just like older ds. He is not loved more, screamed at less, given more privilages, or anything of the sort. My older ds and I tend to be at odds more often, but if you go back to the way they were each raised, from a discipline standpoint, from day 1, it was the same. Therefore, I don't believe it was so much the way they were disciplined as it is their different (night and day) personalities as well as the trauma from older ds' past. Not pretty...but there it is.

[melissel]

It is a common and important legal point known as "intent"

 

If I strike an adult with the intent to cause pain and teach him a lesson, it's still assault. If I strike a child with the intent to cause pain and teach him a lesson, it's considered my right. Makes no sense to me.

[Tree House Academy]

I find this to be quite condescending. Maybe this is just a hot-button issue for me because I've listened to my IL's shove this whole "life experience" argument down my throat for the last 10 years, so this "more experienced" argument makes me cringe. I don't necessarily think the amount of time one is a parent means that they are a more experienced parent. People have different experiences parenting, different children, and different approaches to how they handle things. Some parents may have an extremely difficult small child (raising my hand) so the experience of someone with, say, an extremely difficult 5 year-old, may be greater than that of a parent with an extremely easy 10 year-old. It's the situations we deal with as parents that make us more experienced -- not the number of years. Don't be so quick to discount those of us with small kids because it's quite possible that some of us are far more experienced with certain aspects of parenting than you are.

 

I am pretty sure I answered this previously. Let me go copy what I said there.

 

What I asked was how old the kids of the non-spaking group were. I wanted to hear from people who had older kids that they had effectively used this with (older than my kids).

 

And I think it is wonderful and great that you have done research and planned, but nothing prepares you for the real thing. Like I said before...I said I wouldn't do a lot of things, but then I did them. What you say and plan to do are nothing compared to what you ACTUALLY do when the time comes. So...my statement stands.

 

and

 

I am not going to keep defending my post about wanting to hear from parents who had been not spanking for a long time. You have young kids - okay, so tell me how you deal with a 10 year old. Tell me some of the challenges a 10 year old poses. Please, tell me that you effectively got through the age of 10 or 12 or whatever without using any means of physical punishment. Oh wait...you can't tell me that because you don't have kids that age. Okay, point made.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[Tree House Academy]

Some parents may have an extremely difficult small child (raising my hand) so the experience of someone with, say, an extremely difficult 5 year-old, may be greater than that of a parent with an extremely easy 10 year-old. It's the situations we deal with as parents that make us more experienced -- not the number of years. Don't be so quick to discount those of us with small kids because it's quite possible that some of us are far more experienced with certain aspects of parenting than you are.

 

 

Let me just add that I have a 10 year old that was actually kicked out of daycare (multiple daycares) when he was 3 years old for behavior. When he was 5, he stabbed a child in the head with a pencil. He went to special ed for behavior in ps after hitting his teacher because she sent him to the office. He is a loud, mouthy, rude, and ANGRY 10 year old now. So let's hear that experience you have parenting a tough 5 year old! :glare: Not to be rude, but when I asked for parents of older kids...it wasn't because I have an easy to parent 10 year old that I feel the need to spank.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[melissel]

That said, my younger son is parented the same way. He has been spanked just like older ds. He is not loved more, screamed at less, given more privilages, or anything of the sort. My older ds and I tend to be at odds more often, but if you go back to the way they were each raised, from a discipline standpoint, from day 1, it was the same. Therefore, I don't believe it was so much the way they were disciplined as it is their different (night and day) personalities as well as the trauma from older ds' past. Not pretty...but there it is.

 

This makes me wonder (and I'm not saying this in a snarky way, I promise, only trying to understand the thought process), what good came of spanking him then? It doesn't seem to have brought him from point A to point B as you intended--or do you feel that it has brought him most of the way? For example, I think of the example someone recently posted about spanking her 2 y.o. for getting out of the crib. It wasn't doing anyone any good. The toddler was still getting out of his crib, and the OP was still pulling her hair out and worrying for his safety. What purpose is spanking serving that consistently putting him back in his crib and thinking creatively about how to keep him there isn't going to end up serving anyway?

 

And I share your concerns about what to do about kids who are still defiant when they get older. My second is incredibly independent--not exactly defiant, I guess, but simply convinced that she is capable of doing whatever she wants. She lets very little stand in her way. She's not mean or rageful, just...convicted, I guess? I honestly don't know what our teenage years will bring. I console myself with the fact that I was just like her, and that personality trait, while bringing me head to head with my mother frequently, has served me well in life. My mom calls DD3 "Little Melissa" :lol:

Edited July 3, 2009 by melissel

[melissel]

Let me just add that I have a 10 year old that was actually kicked out of daycare (multiple daycares) when he was 3 years old for behavior. When he was 5, he stabbed a child in the head with a pencil. He went to special ed for behavior in ps after hitting his teacher because she sent him to the office. He is a loud, mouthy, rude, and ANGRY 10 year old now. So let's hear that experience you have parenting a tough 5 year old! :glare:

 

:grouphug: I'm sorry, that is really, really rough.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Rebecca,

 

It seems your 10yo is lacking appropriate problem solving skills. Sometimes kids don't pick up on them as easily as we would like and actually must be taught very systematically. Have you heard of the books Raising a Thinking Child and Raising a Thinking Preteen? Your son is a little old for the first one, but maybe you could have him help teach your younger child with it first then move on to the preteen one. The idea is to help him figure out appropriate ways to handle things so that he doesn't fly off the handle, do inappropriate things, etc. Instead, he'll learn to, in an instant, come up with a couple ideas, evaluate them and use the best one. It takes practice. At first, you'll give him the tools when not in a situation. In time, you can use these things to guide him during or after a situation. And finally he'll be able to use them consistently in order to guide the situation appropriately himself.

 

I do agree with you that a therapist is probably necessary, a possibly someone to do a fuller evaluation also. Though your son may have particular issues, you can still use better discipline in order to help him BEHAVE better. The therapy (and any other treatment deemed necessary) as well as him behaving better will help him FEEL better.

 

As for both kids being raised similarly. Well, yeah, but like you said, they are different kids with different backgrounds. They are individuals with their own needs. Certain discipline methods can hurt one kid though they don't hurt the majority of kids. At the same time, certain kids just require more or different in order to gain the skills and tools they need to be happy and healthy in life. We just can't parent kids the same. THEY aren't the same.

 

Anyway, I thought earlier about some of the direct proactive teaching your 10yo may need when my hubby and I were discussing a certain thing my own son has been doing. We realized we kept waiting til the situation arose rather than addressing it when there isn't a situation. He wasn't "getting" it. Anyway, so direct proactive teaching helps a lot (and hopefully me mentioning this lets you know that even when we do get parenting down and our kids are wonderful, no one is perfect. Ya still gotta tweak along the way.).

[Jorsay]

If I strike an adult with the intent to cause pain and teach him a lesson, it's still assault. If I strike a child with the intent to cause pain and teach him a lesson, it's considered my right. Makes no sense to me.

 

I am harkening back to my single sememster in law school some 20 years ago so I may not be completely accurate, but intent refers to your criminal intent. Did you intend to commit a crime?

 

For instance, A person goes into a store, picks up an item, walks out without paying. This may or may not be a crime. It depends upon the persons intent. Did the person think the item was already paid for, or perhaps the person thought he/she owned the item.

 

For instance, you run over a person in your car intending to kill him. This may or may not be a crime. Perhaps you were protecting the life of yourself or someone else.

 

In nearly all cases, intent is necessary for a crime to be comitted.

 

It is legal for me to strike an adult in certain strange cases as well. This has to do with my intent.

 

This makes legal sense. It is possible for you to be held legally liable for your child's actions. As a result, you are likely to be given more leeway in controlling that behavior than you would be in controlling the behavior of a perfect stranger. Hence, you can do things to your own child that you could not do to an adult.

[Tree House Academy]

My children are 12, 4.5 and 3.

 

 

I can't get over the fact that if I hit an adult it's called "assault", but if I hit a kid I can call it "spanking" and not be charged with assault.

 

 

??? :confused:

 

 

I see your point here...but if I were to hit an adult, I would not be swatting him/her on the bottom. I suppose it is just a difference in opinion. I am not opposed to spanking...but my 10 year old is just getting too old for it. KWIM?

[Pamela H in Texas]

Rebecca,

 

Your 10yo sounds a lot like the 6yo I took in this Spring. He was kicked out of school because of his behavior. Mom and I had tried to work with the school before that point but they wanted to do things their way, which I understand to a degree. But then when it gets to a certain point, they just can't handle it. But I really think had they worked with me, I could have made school successful for this little guy.

 

The important part is to work from where your kiddo is with the LONG TERM goal in mind. Obviously short term discipline (punishing for mistake he's just made) isn't working to get you from point A to point B, like Melissa said. So we want to start thinking bigger in order to help him gain the life skills and tools he'll need.

 

I USUALLY do not ask people to stop spanking or punishing their kids. Instead, I simply ask them to start working on the good strong discipline, knowing the punishments will fall away to a large degree in time. However, I'm really thinking your son is probably being harmed by spanking (and time out probably is a bad choice also). Could you do something more like the "tomato staking" in order to build more with him and not push him away when he's angry or misbehaving? I think it'll be easier in time as you implement new things, but I'm just thinking you REALLY don't want to have a barrier like spanking or separation with a kiddo having these sorts of issues.

 

Just think about it. And though I ask questions and such, don't feel you ever need to answer me. It's really just for your own thinking processes.