Spin-off: 'forced' hugs and such

[secular_mom]

We recently visited with my IL's. We don't see them very often- a few times a year now that we live closer. In the past it was once every few years.

My BIL is VERY different than we are. We just don't see things the same way. He is VERY competitive, VERY pushy, and seems to be very concerned with appearances. That's fine, I accept him as who he is- it's great that we are all different. BUT, last year when we saw him he was too pushy with my sensitive son. My kids aren't into sports, they are interested in free play. He was pushy about getting my dis-interested son to play basketball (play by the rules game). My son got his feelings hurt when he wasn't able to get the ball- and some comments were made about him being too sensitive. Later BIL picked DS up and put him over his shoulders- it REALLY scared DS and he wanted to be put down. When BIL did put him down, DS ran to me and refused to participate in any more activities that day. BIL said something about him being a 'scaredy cat' or some other similar term. I didn't say anything- I try to let DH handle his relatives. I know we won't see them often, so it's not something we have to deal with on a regular basis.

The other day, BIL asked my youngest (3yo) for a hug and a kiss. She is not comfortable with lots of attention from people she doesn't know very well. She turned away from him, and then he bent over and wrapped his arms around her and said, 'Then I'll just take it.' He said it in a playful way, and DD ended up giggling before he let go and she ran away. We may see BIL again this summer, we may not see him till Christmas.

Would you say something about this? I'm thinking of having DH mention it to him. I don't want to cause any undue strain to our relations with BIL/IL's. Last year BIl wrote my DH a very long email asking about my un-natural hair color and WHY DH 'allowed' me to have my hair an un-natural color, and why DH 'allowed' our oldest to study Buddhism.

I try to just stay clear of him, and keep my kids clear of him when we are around them. But sometimes it's not entirely avoidable. I'd like to have a boundary, I just feel so uncomfortable setting it. I guess I'm too concerned over how 'they' will take it, and I really shouldn't be. I should be more concerned with setting safety boundaries for my young daughters.

 

Years ago DH asked our oldest for a hug, and she didn't want to give him a hug because she was upset with him. He picked her up and 'stole' one anyway. We had a VERY long talk about that afterward, and he has NEVER done that to any child since. I'm thinking he could explain it to his DB either via email (they don't write each other on a regular basis though, so it may not go over well- but since DBIL is okay questioning our lifestyle via email, I don't see how it would be necessarily 'wrong' or I could just make sure he brings it up the next time we see them.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Murphy101]

to me

when it comes to physical contact

no means no

period

it is not handled well when that is not respected

and to heck with anyone that doesn't like it

if they made comments about "taking it" and "stealing it"

that would not be a pleasant conversation

at the least I would simply say, no you are not. she said no and she doesn't have to let anyone hug/kiss her just because that's what they want her to do.

 

at the very least the wording is horrid and sends a terrible message, imnsho.

 

so yeah, if I were you it'd be best if my dh handled the talk.

I'd probably botch it by being too honest and direct.;)

[Impish]

I tend to be very blunt when it comes to my kids. The chillingly polite, "Put him down now." delivered in a sweet smile dripping with frozen razor sharp shards of ice in it. "My daughter said no, she did NOT want to hug, please do not physically assault her by touching her without consent." again, delivered with a sickeningly sweet smile, while my tone singes eyebrows and nose hairs.

 

I've been known to lose patience really quickly. :blushing: One family member of dh's INSISTED on groping my pregnant belly, despite my telling them not to. So, I had had enough. This was my statement to him. I said, "Do you know how many bones there are in the human hand? I swear by all that's holy, if you touch me again, you can try counting them on your x-ray. And when you're done with that, you can have your lawyer explain the Criminal Code definition of assault to you at your bail hearing. DO. NOT. TOUCH. ME. AGAIN." He still steers clear of me to this day :lol:

[LBC]

I grew up in a very small family (one sibling and no cousins on either side of the family). At any family gathering (aunts, uncles, grandparents) my sister and I were expected to go around the room and give every adult a good night kiss. One uncle (by marriage, not blood) always wanted to kiss on the lips.:ack2: I know this is normal for some families, but it wasn't for me.

 

I grew up with terrible boundaries. I don't know if it's related to my childhood, and the expectations of my parents and other adults, but I will never allow my dc to experience this sort of boundary violation. I have always told my kids that "no means no", and that nobody should ever touch them unless they are comfortable. I don't think kids can develop a healthy sense of personal boundaries unless it is encouraged by us, and modeled by us. I still have a tough time saying "no" to just about anything, including my kids, my dh, my church (I stopped attending, in part to avoid saying "no" all the time). I feel like I have a disorder that could be called "Boundary Setting Deficit Disorder" (BSDD?).:D I'm joking, but there is some truth to it. I've spent many hours reflecting on my childhood and teen years, and wondering why I allowed certain things to happen to me. I think it's so important to give your children a voice when they are old enough, and set boundaries for them until that time.

 

Lori

[ConnieB]

I posted on a simliar thread (perhaps the one that you spun off) where my family growing up never hugged....and when I had children I brought them up to hug freely, and often.

 

But....I totally agree with the others that say if someone says no to a hug, that should be respected (and that goes for adults or children). My children are slowly learning the body language of others to know if a hug would be welcome or not....they're not always right and I have noticed people stiffen when they are hugged by my kids and my kids break the hug off quickly. It's a learning process. BUT....your little one made it clear before the hug started that she didn't want it. THAT should be respected without exception.

 

THe family dynamics are not always fun to deal with....but yeah, if BIL can email his disapproval over your hair color (Huh????) then I totally think it appropriate for DH to write and let him know that your children deserve his respect (and your DH requires it) and request that he back off from the insensitive comments to your son and that he allow your daughters to warm up to him naturally without forcing affection. Of course, if DH is comfortable with a phone call to discuss this shortly before the next visit, that would be better as it can't be as easily misconstrued as an email might.

 

I think it's important that children's right to refuse affection be respected and allowed, even when it's their own dad (referring to your mention of your daughter's refusal because they had a disagreement). Our failure to protect and honor that may give the child the thought that they must give in to any unwanted affection.....and for some children that of course can lead to being a victim. Obviously, I'm not saying those are your BIL intentions, any more than they were your husbands of course.....but a child can only go by their instinct and feelings, and must learn where that is....if they don't learn it from us, where do they?

 

Yes, sometimes we know that the child simply needs a hug.....I'm sure that's how your DH felt when daughter rebuked him in anger.....and I can think of times that my own kids have been mad at me and refused a hug and I have forced it because I knew it would be what broke down the emotional wall. It's a fine line to walk and only knowing the child very well makes that possible.....so it's not the same as with BIL.

 

Hopefully, it won't be an issue next time even if your DH does talk....I can remember one of my kids (probably the one I'd call most shy in our outgoing family, lol), very young, preschool age at most, not wanting to go near a relative. We thought it odd, until we realized it had been a year or more since we'd been together and of course little one was barely a toddler then and so this person was really a complete stranger to him even though none of us felt that way. Fortunately by the end of the trip they were best buddies, and hopefully next time your daughter sees Uncle, she'll think of him not as a stranger. Hopefully.

[gandpsmommy]

I think it would be totally appropriate for your dh to talk to his brother about this. I think it is completely reasonable for you to set this boundary, that if one of your children says that they don't want to be touched, they should not be touched. I also very much relate to your hesitancy to say anything because of worrying about how it will be received. I am much the same way, but I have to force myself to get over worrying about what others will think.

 

My ds is very snuggly and cuddly with us, but he is not at all the kind of kid who wants to hug/kiss relatives or friends. I've had relatives try to make him feel bad about this before, but I refuse to force him to touch people in a way that makes him uncomfortable.

 

Also, he doesn't like to have his picture taken unless he's in the right mood. Some of our extended family get upset when he won't come be a part of the group picture at family gatherings, but I won't force him to because to me it's not that huge of a deal, and I feel that if he learns he has to do everything a grown-up desires him to do, just because the grown-up wants him to, he won't have the confidence he needs to say no if a grown-up would ever put him in a compromising situation.

[secular_mom]

I just told DH about the incident- which he totally did not see. He says he will talk to his brother about it, and he told me to just be blunt about stopping him if I see him try to do it again. He actually said to tell him, "no, she said she doesn't want a hug, it's not okay for you to force her to touch you just because you want her to and just because you are her uncle. Hugs and kisses have to be earned, they shouldn't be force and it's actually kinda creepy for you to force a 3yo to hug you." :D

 

He said he'll talk to him though, next time we see them- but I'll have to remind him to do it. I'll feel much better enforcing this boundary knowing that DH has helped me set it ahead of time, KWIM?

It still amazes me the things I find myself enduring when I'm just caught off guard. It definitely helps to be prepared. Thanks for the input!

[Impish]

I think it would be totally appropriate for your dh to talk to his brother about this. I think it is completely reasonable for you to set this boundary, that if one of your children says that they don't want to be touched, they should not be touched. I also very much relate to your hesitancy to say anything because of worrying about how it will be received. I am much the same way, but I have to force myself to get over worrying about what others will think.

 

My ds is very snuggly and cuddly with us, but he is not at all the kind of kid who wants to hug/kiss relatives or friends. I've had relatives try to make him feel bad about this before, but I refuse to force him to touch people in a way that makes him uncomfortable.

 

Also, he doesn't like to have his picture taken unless he's in the right mood. Some of our extended family get upset when he won't come be a part of the group picture at family gatherings, but I won't force him to because to me it's not that huge of a deal, and I feel that if he learns he has to do everything a grown-up desires him to do, just because the grown-up wants him to, he won't have the confidence he needs to say no if a grown-up would ever put him in a compromising situation.

See, I'm differ on that. I'd make him get in the pics. Its a whole family picture, and for everyone. Getting a picture taken doesn't to me violate a child's confidence or self esteem. Its one of those things that we all have to do sometimes, like it or not. I hate getting my pic taken, but suffer through it for family pics, etc, because its important to capture the memories.

[MelanieM]

I think it's great that your husband has agreed to talk to your brother-in-law about this. But what I think would be even more valuable would be for your children to witness you and/or your husband standing up for them in the moment. If your goal is to have them feel it is more important to stand up for what they want than it is to do something they dislike for fear of how it will look to others, then you really need to be able to model that for them as well. Otherwise, they're hearing the words but the actions really aren't supporting the idea you're presenting to them.

 

I do understand it can be hard to do, but I think it's important that us parents push through any discomfort on this front for the sake of our kids. So in the example with your daughter, I think it would be reasonable to speak to her in the moment, reminding her (and everyone else) that she doesn't have to give a hug if she doesn't want to, and inviting her to share her feelings about the experience openly so she knows she's being heard. And if it all happens so fast that you can't intervene quickly enough to back up the intial no, then a very direct statement to the offending adult would be in order.

 

Best of luck with your next visit!

[Murphy101]

See, I'm differ on that. I'd make him get in the pics. Its a whole family picture, and for everyone. Getting a picture taken doesn't to me violate a child's confidence or self esteem. Its one of those things that we all have to do sometimes, like it or not. I hate getting my pic taken, but suffer through it for family pics, etc, because its important to capture the memories.

 

as someone else who has a very strong aversion to having her picture taken, I will respectfully disagree. I will cave for the sake of familial harmony if requested, but I don't enjoy it and the smile always looks more like a grimace of pain despite honest efforts to be genuine LOL honestly most don't notice that I'm not in the picture until afterwards. (I try to make myself scarce and in the case of my in-laws, they are very happy to have me out fo the picture)

 

oddly enough I take dozens upon dozens of pictures of my husband and kids every week. it's one of my favorite things to do.

[Impish]

as someone else who has a very strong aversion to having her picture taken, I will respectfully disagree. I will cave for the sake of familial harmony if requested, but I don't enjoy it and the smile always looks more like a grimace of pain despite honest efforts to be genuine LOL honestly most don't notice that I'm not in the picture until afterwards. (I try to make myself scarce and in the case of my in-laws, they are very happy to have me out fo the picture)

 

oddly enough I take dozens upon dozens of pictures of my husband and kids every week. it's one of my favorite things to do.

That's exactly my point. The child is requested to be in the picture, a family gathering picture, and it upsets others when he's not. In that case, yes, I would override the child and insist that he cooperates. There are times when a child, as is the case with many adults, has to 'suck it up' and do something they don't feel like doing. Getting a picture taken isn't an invasion of privacy, isn't an invasion of personal space, isn't a physical assault. Being hugged, kissed, etc against your wishes very much is.

[Elizabeth Conley]

The other day, BIL asked my youngest (3yo) for a hug and a kiss. She is not comfortable with lots of attention from people she doesn't know very well. She turned away from him, and then he bent over and wrapped his arms around her and said, 'Then I'll just take it.' He said it in a playful way, and DD ended up giggling before he let go and she ran away. We may see BIL again this summer, we may not see him till Christmas.

 

 

 

It can't happen again.

 

Ask your husband to give the BIL a head's up. If he fouls up again, make an issue of it, defending the child's right to say no immediately.

 

Normal relationships are built over time, and involve mutual trust and respect. Yes, adults must respect children! Everyone, regardless of age and gender, has a right to decide who they choose to be physically intimate with.

 

I've dealt with this before. The BIL is probably harmless, in that I doubt he is a child predator. On the other hand, child predators love the type of social environment the BILs attitude prevails in. Children raised within the BILs rules are easy pickings. Tragically, their vulnerability doesn't always end with childhood. It can cause them to become adults with serious boundary issues.

 

Expect the BIL to hem and haw, pout, bellow defensively, wheedle, expound, pontificate, bluster and generally protest. Be firm.

[Lisa R.]

I'm more than a little uncomfortable with telling the person who's trying to give an unwanted hug that it's "assault." Assault, used in this sense, is a crime and seems to be a severe overreaction.

 

Of course, these hugging adults should be more sensitive and not wish to hug someone who's not comfortable. Either they are not reading social cues, have different expectations of children, or are plain creepy. I don't think we should jump to the latter conclusion. (Of course, if this person is deviant, then the kids shouldn't be around him, regardless.)

 

I think it's important to model gracious behavior even if another person is less than gracious. "Oh, he's not in the mood for a hug today. That's alright." All this is said while mom is reaching for her child, guiding him out of the situation.

 

If an adult is acting innocently, but cluelessly, I don't think they deserve to be treated like that.

 

Now, as far as the BIL calling the OP's child a name and criticizing him, that's another issue. I think a kind, but firm email or conversation asking BIL to be kind to the child is appropriate.

[MelanieM]

Lisa, I see what you're saying but I'm not sure I agree about it not being assault... If a man I barely knew insisted on hugging me when I explicitely said NO, I would feel that is assault. It wouldn't matter much to me how nice he is, or how good his intentions are. And I think adults, even well-meaning ones, should understand that things that are inappriate for other adults would be inapprorpriate for other children. So I think using these types of words can be a nice little wake up call to people who are choosing to be oblivious of others' needs.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't yell and scream "assault!" at a family member who obviously is well-meaning but clueless. I do agree there's a way to protect our children and show them we stand up for their rights that is more gentle and graceful to ill-informed loved ones.

 

About the pictures... I think the similarity of the issue there is that forcing a child to do something like stand in a picture for another adult against their own inner guidance shows them that it is more important to make other people happy than it is to listen to what feels comfortable to them. And if your goal is to not ever send that message to a child, then it makes sense you wouldn't force them to stand in a photo against their will just because Grandma said so. An adult making that decision for themselves is an entirely different thing, as they are then choosing what is most important to them, which may or may not involve going against what makes them most comfortable. So perhaps a more on par approach with a child would be to explain the dynamic to them, let them know why it is important to Grandma (i.e. help them with the reasoning they might not be mature enough to do on their own) and then let them make that choice.

[Pajama Mama]

My nephew is 8 and sees us a few times a year. When he was here last year my step dad told him to kiss me goodbye. My step dad told him again. He didn't want to so I told him to give me 5 instead. I love him, he knows me but I will not insist on getting hugs/kisses from him-or any child. I feel that it's important to allow children to say no if they are uncomfortable--especially younger kids.

 

On the other hand, dd8 had her 1st Communion last month. I strongly suggested that she hug her relatives goodbye. She wasn't thrilled about it but it was a one time thing. I wouldn't have forced her but I would have been a little annoyed.

[Dirtroad]

Children should be encouraged to hug relatives! Also, the shrink away can be a power play. These are the closest blood relatives that you have & hugs are a way of expressing LOVE.

 

He isn't a pedophile or freaky stranger.

 

We are such a hostile, self-absorbed society today..... very selfish (some due to fear and some due to it being easier)..... teach them to love their family - even if they only see them a few times a year.

 

It doesn't come naturally for most of us & we must learn (be taught) the proper & acceptible behaviors. Also to give a hug to an uncle, grandmother, or aunt.... is a sign of respect & appreciation that they are interested in you (as a child) b/c most folks tend to ignore kids.

[lionfamily1999]

Children should be encouraged to hug relatives! Also, the shrink away can be a power play. These are the closest blood relatives that you have & hugs are a way of expressing LOVE.

 

He isn't a pedophile or freaky stranger.

 

We are such a hostile, self-absorbed society today..... very selfish (some due to fear and some due to it being easier)..... teach them to love their family - even if they only see them a few times a year.

 

It doesn't come naturally for most of us & we must learn (be taught) the proper & acceptible behaviors. Also to give a hug to an uncle, grandmother, or aunt.... is a sign of respect & appreciation that they are interested in you (as a child) b/c most folks tend to ignore kids.

:iagree: With an exception for any creepy or drug/alcohol addicted family members.

[MelanieM]

Children should be encouraged to hug relatives! Also, the shrink away can be a power play. These are the closest blood relatives that you have & hugs are a way of expressing LOVE.

 

He isn't a pedophile or freaky stranger.

 

Every pedophile or freaky stranger is someone's blood relative.

 

I get to decide who I give physical affection to, and when. Part of my job as a parent is supporting my children in exercising that same right. It doesn't mean they never give hugs or other shows of affection (they are actually quite affectionate), it means they're the ones to decide when that happens.

 

All that aside, I think the more important point is not that the child is at risk in hugging Grandma or Uncle Skippy. The risk is that the child becomes conditioned to overriding their own internal guidance so that they can make the adults in their life happy, and then they risk being taken advantage of by an adult that will use that to their advantage. This happens all the time. And it is far more important to me to give my children a clear idea that they can control their own personal space, regardless of who the adult involved is, than to worry about whether or not someone else is offended or upset by a missed hug.

[LBC]

Every pedophile or freaky stranger is someone's blood relative.

 

I get to decide who I give physical affection to, and when. Part of my job as a parent is supporting my children in exercising that same right. It doesn't mean they never give hugs or other shows of affection (they are actually quite affectionate), it means they're the ones to decide when that happens.

 

All that aside, I think the more important point is not that the child is at risk in hugging Grandma or Uncle Skippy. The risk is that the child becomes conditioned to overriding their own internal guidance so that they can make the adults in their life happy, and then they risk being taken advantage of by an adult that will use that to their advantage. This happens all the time. And it is far more important to me to give my children a clear idea that they can control their own personal space, regardless of who the adult involved is, than to worry about whether or not someone else is offended or upset by a missed hug.

:iagree:I agree. Of course my children give aunts, uncles, Grandparents and cousins lots of hugs and affection, but when they feel uneasy, it's so important to allow them to follow through on their instincts.

 

Lori

[secular_mom]

Children should be encouraged to hug relatives! Also, the shrink away can be a power play. These are the closest blood relatives that you have & hugs are a way of expressing LOVE.

 

He isn't a pedophile or freaky stranger.

 

We are such a hostile, self-absorbed society today..... very selfish (some due to fear and some due to it being easier)..... teach them to love their family - even if they only see them a few times a year.

 

It doesn't come naturally for most of us & we must learn (be taught) the proper & acceptible behaviors. Also to give a hug to an uncle, grandmother, or aunt.... is a sign of respect & appreciation that they are interested in you (as a child) b/c most folks tend to ignore kids.

 

 

NO way. There have been issues in MY family that have come to light YEARS later. I/my children do not owe someone we are not comfortable with ANYthing just because they are a blood relative and have an interest in us. BIL is not a pedophile that I am aware of, but he IS a PUSHY stranger to my children. They don't know him, and when they have met him it hasn't been a necessarily pleasant experience. DH is sure he will completely understand once the issue is pointed out to him, right now he's just oblivious but used to 'having his way'. Who is really the self absorbed party (who is actually being disrespectful) when an adult grabs a child and 'takes a hug anyway' against the child's wishes? One persons need to 'give affection' does not outweigh another's need for personal boundaries.

[Murphy101]

Every pedophile or freaky stranger is someone's blood relative.

 

I get to decide who I give physical affection to, and when. Part of my job as a parent is supporting my children in exercising that same right. It doesn't mean they never give hugs or other shows of affection (they are actually quite affectionate), it means they're the ones to decide when that happens.

 

All that aside, I think the more important point is not that the child is at risk in hugging Grandma or Uncle Skippy. The risk is that the child becomes conditioned to overriding their own internal guidance so that they can make the adults in their life happy, and then they risk being taken advantage of by an adult that will use that to their advantage. This happens all the time. And it is far more important to me to give my children a clear idea that they can control their own personal space, regardless of who the adult involved is, than to worry about whether or not someone else is offended or upset by a missed hug.

 

:iagree: you tell it sister!

 

that aside..

 

if the only way an adult can feel the love and respect of a child is by forcing them to give fake hugs and kisses, then that adult has issues

[Carol in Cal.]

There was a guy I knew as a kid, sort of a psuedo uncle to my mom. He was married to a first cousin of my grandfather, and my mom and his daughter grew up together, so pretty close but not family-family IYKWIM. Anyway, when I was really little, he always wanted to kiss me, and I just DIDN'T WANT TO. I remember this so clearly. It felt like he wanted me to kiss him just too much, and that put my back up, it kind of grossed me out.

 

I would like to think that if he had ever done anything to my mom she would not have let him approach me like that, but she's not very assertive and I'm not sure of it. And I was extremely young when this happened a few times, so maybe I'm remembering it wrong.

 

But I still remember how this guy, who was very smiley and nice and sort of a big teddy bear, lovable guy, somehow gave me the creeps when I was very small. And I just don't quite know what to make of it. At all.

 

Maybe he was completely normal and just liked me in a normal way. This was a huggy-kissy family that I was in, so that would not have been out of the question. And it does happen that adults and kids bond in a way, and there's nothing sinister about it--they just have a connection, which maybe he felt and I did not.

 

But maybe he was 'off' and I sensed it.

 

I don't remember being forced to kiss him, but I do remember feeling pretty guilty for not wanting to.

 

I don't and never have made my Dd do anything physically affectionate that she doesn't want to do, but she does see me going around hugging people and such, and we are affectionate in our family. I hope that she feels both encouraged and empowered. Balance, that's the ticket.

[HRAAB]

Every pedophile or freaky stranger is someone's blood relative.

 

I get to decide who I give physical affection to, and when. Part of my job as a parent is supporting my children in exercising that same right. It doesn't mean they never give hugs or other shows of affection (they are actually quite affectionate), it means they're the ones to decide when that happens.

 

All that aside, I think the more important point is not that the child is at risk in hugging Grandma or Uncle Skippy. The risk is that the child becomes conditioned to overriding their own internal guidance so that they can make the adults in their life happy, and then they risk being taken advantage of by an adult that will use that to their advantage. This happens all the time. And it is far more important to me to give my children a clear idea that they can control their own personal space, regardless of who the adult involved is, than to worry about whether or not someone else is offended or upset by a missed hug.

 

I was wanting to say something, trying to think how to say it, and here it is. So :iagree:.

 

I do have two dd's who do not like to hug! They are not comfortable with it. I have never, ever forced them to hug anyone. Respecting family and adults does NOT include hugging and kissing. I also believe children's internal 'red flags' need to be respected.

 

Janet

[Jean in Newcastle]

My children have always been of the "if you ignore them, they will come" variety. But those who gush over them make them back away. The problem was that my ILs (esp MIL) are of the gush over children variety. Some of this might be cultural (Filipino). My kids have over the years taught themselves to 'put up with' a hello and good-bye kiss even though they don't really like it. Part of that was the discovery that if they submitted for a second then it really was over but if they struggled then it would be prolonged! We really did try to get MIL to back off but it's amazing how quickly her English speaking ability would fade away when told something like that.:glare: So my kids do allow a short non-intimate kiss out of respect to her. I feel a bit badly though, because other than obligatory lifting of their cheek to her, they do not snuggle or cuddle with her.

 

I don't know what MIL would think if she saw my dc with my parents. My parents took my advice to not rush things. And even though my dc rarely see them (because they live across the country) they are quite snuggly and cuddly with them.

[joannqn]

Every pedophile or freaky stranger is someone's blood relative.

 

I get to decide who I give physical affection to, and when. Part of my job as a parent is supporting my children in exercising that same right. It doesn't mean they never give hugs or other shows of affection (they are actually quite affectionate), it means they're the ones to decide when that happens.

 

All that aside, I think the more important point is not that the child is at risk in hugging Grandma or Uncle Skippy. The risk is that the child becomes conditioned to overriding their own internal guidance so that they can make the adults in their life happy, and then they risk being taken advantage of by an adult that will use that to their advantage. This happens all the time. And it is far more important to me to give my children a clear idea that they can control their own personal space, regardless of who the adult involved is, than to worry about whether or not someone else is offended or upset by a missed hug.

 

:iagree:

 

Well said.

 

I appreciate, for example, the fact that my father has never expected or acted hurt when one of my children has been too scared of him to approach him, hug him, sit in his lap, or whatever. This usually happens around the age of 2 and they are dealing with normal levels of stranger anxiety. He totally understands and accepts their feelings. They eventually warm up to him and won't leave him alone.

 

I do not appreciate the fact that my father will also tickle WAY TOO MUCH...to the point of it hurting and not being able to breathe. He did this to me growing up and I remember how much I hated it. When I notice something like tickling getting out of hand, I help my children speak up. Rather than telling him to stop, I tell my child, "If you want Papa to stop, tell him to please stop." It teaches them that they can say "stop" or "no", and he gets the point.

[laurad1125]

to me

when it comes to physical contact

no means no

period

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

oh, did I mention? I agree!!!!

[Dirtroad]

Sorry, I didn't realize the child was all alone with a freaky pedophile, drunk, violent relative that no one new or was wathcing.

 

Seriously, from the OP... I thought they were right there. No freaky alcoholic, abusive, pedophile was there. Just an uncle that you seem to not like. Perhaps he is just trying to be out going & friendly... perhaps the rest of us are "scared to death of everyone" these days. Not an insult... it just worries me that we peep out of our windows, de-germ everything we touch & teach our children to fear (obviously) harmless (possibly annoying) relations.

 

I constantly see children use stuff like this to manipulate and control. It is not good. Plus, shyness comes to us all and we should learn to master it b/c as an adult is is crippling.

 

No one said avoid the creepy. But a 3 year old doesn't have your wisdom & is usually just not wanting to be bothered. NO one wants their little cheeks pinched or grandma kissing you with snuff on her chin..... good grief.... but no harm comes of it & when she dies... you will be so glad that she loved you! (few people truly do in our short lives)

 

How do you build relationships with family members without affection and some trust? Might was well be the check out person at WalMart or the janitor at the courthouse. Say hi, chat a bit & go along your way.

 

The parent was right by there side.... it is teaching trust & judgement at the same time. It it becomes more than a hug & hello.... stop it immediately. But this does not sound like the case at all.

 

How did we become such a fearful society? We get mad at schools for not allowing kids to hug... but we get freaky over an uncle giving a big hug to a child with the parent present.

 

BTW... I always gave my drunken uncle a hug as a kid. So few loved him... he needed it. We were with family at dinners - not in danger. I was never groped or mistreated. He is sober today and I still think he needs hugs... not just a hello Uncle from 5 feet away.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Dirtroad

[secular_mom]

Sorry, I didn't realize the child was all alone with a freaky pedophile, drunk, violent relative that no one new or was wathcing.

 

Seriously, from the OP... I thought they were right there. No freaky alcoholic, abusive, pedophile was there. Just an uncle that you seem to not like. Perhaps he is just trying to be out going & friendly... perhaps the rest of us are "scared to death of everyone" these days. Not an insult... it just worries me that we peep out of our windows, de-germ everything we touch & teach our children to fear (obviously) harmless (possibly annoying) relations.

 

I constantly see children use stuff like this to manipulate and control. It is not good. Plus, shyness comes to us all and we should learn to master it b/c as an adult is is crippling.

 

No one said avoid the creepy. But a 3 year old doesn't have your wisdom & is usually just not wanting to be bothered. NO one wants their little cheeks pinched or grandma kissing you with snuff on her chin..... good grief.... but no harm comes of it & when she dies... you will be so glad that she loved you! (few people truly do in our short lives)

 

How do you build relationships with family members without affection and some trust? Might was well be the check out person at WalMart or the janitor at the courthouse. Say hi, chat a bit & go along your way.

 

The parent was right by there side.... it is teaching trust & judgement at the same time. It it becomes more than a hug & hello.... stop it immediately. But this does not sound like the case at all.

 

How did we become such a fearful society? We get mad at schools for not allowing kids to hug... but we get freaky over an uncle giving a big hug to a child with the parent present.

 

BTW... I always gave my drunken uncle a hug as a kid. So few loved him... he needed it. We were with family at dinners - not in danger. I was never groped or mistreated. He is sober today and I still think he needs hugs... not just a hello Uncle from 5 feet away.

 

I appreciate your different perspective, but I totally disagree. You obviously haven't had the same life experiences that I have (too personal to discuss on a message board). IMO, there is a HUGE difference in encouraging a shy child to interact with other people, and having another adult hold them against their will in the name of 'affection'. That kind of affection, you can keep to yourself- thank you very much. :001_smile:

IMO, respect is a two-way street, and an adult who doesn't respect a child should not expect respect FROM the child.

[Joanne]

Sorry, I didn't realize the child was all alone with a freaky pedophile, drunk, violent relative that no one new or was wathcing.

 

Seriously, from the OP... I thought they were right there. No freaky alcoholic, abusive, pedophile was there. Just an uncle that you seem to not like. Perhaps he is just trying to be out going & friendly... perhaps the rest of us are "scared to death of everyone" these days. Not an insult... it just worries me that we peep out of our windows, de-germ everything we touch & teach our children to fear (obviously) harmless (possibly annoying) relations.

 

I constantly see children use stuff like this to manipulate and control. It is not good. Plus, shyness comes to us all and we should learn to master it b/c as an adult is is crippling.

 

No one said avoid the creepy. But a 3 year old doesn't have your wisdom & is usually just not wanting to be bothered. NO one wants their little cheeks pinched or grandma kissing you with snuff on her chin..... good grief.... but no harm comes of it & when she dies... you will be so glad that she loved you! (few people truly do in our short lives)

 

How do you build relationships with family members without affection and some trust? Might was well be the check out person at WalMart or the janitor at the courthouse. Say hi, chat a bit & go along your way.

 

The parent was right by there side.... it is teaching trust & judgement at the same time. It it becomes more than a hug & hello.... stop it immediately. But this does not sound like the case at all.

 

How did we become such a fearful society? We get mad at schools for not allowing kids to hug... but we get freaky over an uncle giving a big hug to a child with the parent present.

 

BTW... I always gave my drunken uncle a hug as a kid. So few loved him... he needed it. We were with family at dinners - not in danger. I was never groped or mistreated. He is sober today and I still think he needs hugs... not just a hello Uncle from 5 feet away.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by Dirtroad; Yesterday at 11:43 PM.

 

Offering children the same say over their bodies and affection as adults isn't based on fear. It's based on respect. NO PERSON should EVER have to physically interact or offer affection if they don't want to.

 

I am especially aghast at:

I constantly see children use stuff like this to manipulate and control. It is not good. Plus, shyness comes to us all and we should learn to master it b/c as an adult is is crippling.

 

Children decline hugs, kisses or contact for a variety of reasons and EACH one of them should be honored.

 

You can teach and train social skills, ettiquette but to suggest that not wanting to hug or kiss an adult on command or encouragement is some kind of power play or shyness? Yikes.

[MelanieM]

Dirtroad, I'm curious as to how you recommend teaching children that they have the power to say no when things feel inappropriate, if you first are teaching them that it is not up to them to do that? I'm genuinely curious how you deal with this in your home.

 

As a parent, it is not reasonable for me to expect that I will *always* be in range of my children. And yes, even in a house full of people that love you, bad things can happen. People that are out to abuse children look for opportunities to get them alone, even if for a minute, and test them to see whether or not they'll resist. They look for easy targets! If you don't allow your children to stand up to Uncle Skippy and say no when you're there, then how would you expect them to do it when you're not? And the answer can't be "I'm always there", because there's just no way that works forever.

 

I also want to echo Joanne that teaching our children that they deserve respect is not at all about fear. It's about empowerment! I don't go around thinking my kids are about to be attacked at any moment - far from it! I feel really confident that they know, beyond a doubt, that what they want regarding their personal space is important and that I will back them in that. That is the best foundation of protection I can possibly give them.

[Murphy101]

Sorry, I didn't realize the child was all alone with a freaky pedophile, drunk, violent relative that no one new or was wathcing.

 

oh for crying out loud...

I have more than one freak and drunk in our families and I'd gladly let my kids give them all the hugs and kisses a loving relationship would allow IF my child felt comfortable with it and was willing

(in fact, by some standards *I* am the freaky person in the family!)

 

if I knew they were a pedophile or violent - I wouldn't bring my kids in the house with them at all, much less allow physical contact. That aside, most people do not know the person is a pedophile. That's how pedophiles get away with it.

 

I happen to think that the message I send to my kids when I'm around will, god willing, stick when I'm not around. If my kid knows I'm going to back them up when they feel uncomfortable with physical contact in my presence, then hopefuly they will know they I back them up should anything uncomfortable happen when I'm not around too.

 

perhaps the rest of us are "scared to death of everyone" these days. Not an insult... it just worries me that we peep out of our windows, de-germ everything we touch & teach our children to fear (obviously) harmless (possibly annoying) relations.

 

I'm not like that. even so, this really has nothing to do with the person in question. it's about respecting physical boundaries

 

I constantly see children use stuff like this to manipulate and control. It is not good.

 

well that can only happen if you have a power-tripping uncle who insists he has the right to man-handle the kid. If the adult in question shrugs it off and goes their merry way, there's no manipulation possible is there? My 3 yr old will act all bashful and shy around her grandmother, we just laugh it off. If grammy was around more, the kid would be more comfortable with her and we all understand that's the real problem and don't force affection that isn't there.

 

Plus, shyness comes to us all and we should learn to master it b/c as an adult is is crippling.

 

you know, I disagree with that. for some adults it is. But the vast majority of adults who are shy live their lives just fine. And most woudl say that being forced into uncomfortable physical contact woudl make them MORE shy, not less. because that doesn't built confidence, it just makes them nervous.

 

How do you build relationships with family members without affection and some trust?

 

again, what you describe is not affection or trust.

it's just forced affection and maybe emotional blackmail.

 

The parent was right by there side.... it is teaching trust & judgement at the same time.

 

I agree! I'm teaching my child about physical boundaries and that they can trust their judgement on when they feel uncomfortable being touched.

 

How did we become such a fearful society? We get mad at schools for not allowing kids to hug... but we get freaky over an uncle giving a big hug to a child with the parent present.

 

who gets ticked about kids hugging at school? No one said to not allow the child to give a hug. They said the child shouldn't be forced to hug. A big difference there. Most children are naturally very physically affectionate. No problem with that.

[Dirtroad]

How do I handle it? BEFORE we arrive at a family gathering (with aunts & uncles from out of state & only see 1x per year), we discuss who is there & how to behave (what to expect). We talk about saying hello & giving the aunts & uncles a hug at the GREETING. Strangers in the house may get a hello & maybe a handshake. WE ARE RIGHT THERE (just like this OP mom was)

 

Now, one aunt & uncle are semi-Goth & like porn. My kids are strictly instructed (& watched) to not be alone with them or on the computer. Grandma drinks too much & her judgement isn't always top notch. So, we discuss this. You can't leave the house with grandma without coming to the parent for persmission. So, no BEAVER CLEAVER family here either.... for those who think they have a corner market on family horror stories. (everyone has this & everyone has had horrible situations - some more than others).

 

As for shyness not being a problem with adults. I strongly disagree. I am married to a shy DH who has had a lifelong battle with it & works very hard to conquer it. It does limit him & he is aware of it. Super smart.... but the shyness limits his ability to interact at work & other places.... this limits his opportunity at promotions, relationships, and community involvement. It is harmful & he works very hard to control or curb it. I don' t meet a stranger (never have since a small child) and I have come to understand this from him. I work hard to be sure my kids don't have this trouble.

 

As for strangers (or people who make them concerned), the children are "instructed" to be cautious and keep a distance. If the strangers are trespassing on our property, kids come inside- immediately (we keep 4 dogs... they can't sneak up). If we are in public, you stay with parent (or with group, buddy system as in scouts) & our rule is "if you can't see me, I can't see you" (gone too far). However, I still try to maintain a polite manner when dealing with people in public. But... these are TRUE strangers. Caution is used.

 

We talk about it. (not in deep, horrific detail) but I explain that people are wicked & can be dangerous. They know about drugs & violence & other evils of our society. I am not a fool.

 

However, family at Christmas or special gatherings is different..... I am also talking about my siblings or dH siblings & grandparents. NOt a 15th cousin once removed..... not Uncle Joe's 18th girlfriend. WE can't all help that we live so far apart ...with jobs & marriages requiring moves. We try very hard to talk about the aunts & uncles as much as possible to keep them fresh in the minds of our children.

 

My grandparents never allowed the children and grandchildren to shy away from the hostess or closest relations. It was considered rude. No generation is without faults, but I think they had far better social graces than we do today. I follow their example.

 

The OP child actually seemed to like the uncle & was laughing. She didn't seem traumatized. The Mom was with her. The Uncle is not what MOm would prefer him to be but he also isn't a monster. He didn't hurt the child just picked her up & teased a bit (not wicked or mean spirited). The ice was broken & she wasn't in fear or alarm or hurt. Mom seems to have more trauma than child & I was offering a different point of view.

 

I thought OP was asking for opinions on her handling it. I dont' think the Uncle is horrible, just not her way of doing it. I didn't realize she just wanted everyone to reinforce her .... thought she was asking for opinion & advice.

 

I refuse to live in FEAR.... caution, but not fear. I also refuse to let my children snub their relations simply because we live a 1000 miles apart. I refuse to let them hide behind my skirt b/c it is uncomfortable meeting their aunt w/ 4 hair colors or hanging with snuff-smelling grandma. It is not fun as a kid to hug relatives. They want to play & see the cousins. It is never fun to step out of the shell. Kids do show friendship easily with own age, but I see them having difficulty with other generations (& we encourage this in our culture).

 

But, this slight discomfort is NO reason to not know each other (as a family) & give a simple hug of compassion & greeting at our few gatherings. Other forms of worry or discomfort may warrant that child run like heck.... this was not such a case.

[Impish]

Just a response to something I read earlier, but didn't c&p. Someone objected to the use of 'assault'. According to the Criminal Code of Canada, forced unwanted physical contact is just that. So, technically, it is correct. Would I be calling the police? No. Its simply used as a dash of cold water in the face, to wake someone up to the seriousness of what they're doing. They wouldn't dream of forcing physical affection on an adult...why should a related child be not accorded similar respect, and considered 'free game'? Unless of course the adult is pregnant, and we're talking about her belly...then it seems to be another story :glare:

 

I've been thinking about this thread. My MIL visits once a year. As much as her and I don't get along well, I know she would be devastated if our children refused to hug and kiss her, and I can TOTALLY see Wolf forcing the issue with them. I honestly don't know what I'd do then. I mean, it IS their grandmother...*sigh*

[Murphy101]

My grandparents never allowed the children and grandchildren to shy away from the hostess or closest relations. It was considered rude. No generation is without faults, but I think they had far better social graces than we do today. I follow their example.

 

my grandparents would have never done that. they were very stand-offish. they would have appreicated a hug/kiss, but they wouldn't have pushed it or taken it personally. in fact, an overly affectionate kid wouldn't have been appreciated either. They preferred the kids just go play and let the adults alone to talk adult conversations.

 

I thought OP was asking for opinions on her handling it. I dont' think the Uncle is horrible, just not her way of doing it.

 

I don't think the guy is horrible either.:confused:

But when raising my kids, yes, my and dh's way is the final decision.

 

It is not fun as a kid to hug relatives. They want to play & see the cousins. It is never fun to step out of the shell. Kids do show friendship easily with own age, but I see them having difficulty with other generations (& we encourage this in our culture).

 

your kids are different than mine then and most that I know. My kids have never met a stranger. To simply talk to them, they'd probably think nothing of it and talk normally. They tend to shrink back when forced or demanded physical contact is being required.

 

 

I've been thinking about this thread. My MIL visits once a year. As much as her and I don't get along well, I know she would be devastated if our children refused to hug and kiss her, and I can TOTALLY see Wolf forcing the issue with them. I honestly don't know what I'd do then. I mean, it IS their grandmother...*sigh*

 

 

wow. devastated? really? :confused: I guess my mil and dad have really had to get over themselves then. I have to say *I* don't hug and kiss folks I don't know well either and I've never had it demanded of me as an adult. Thus, I won't demand it of my kids. Do I encourage them to give grammy a hug or kiss? sure. But if they don't, they don't. we don't treat it like a big deal at all and they have all eventually warmed up to each other just fine.

[secular_mom]

your kids are different than mine then and most that I know. My kids have never met a stranger. To simply talk to them, they'd probably think nothing of it and talk normally. They tend to shrink back when forced or demanded physical contact is being required.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, my children are actually very happy to snuggle with their grandparents, whom they know better and who have never insisted on such displays of affection. It's the pushy-ness of BIL that seems to drive my kids away from him.

[Impish]

wow. devastated? really? :confused: I guess my mil and dad have really had to get over themselves then. I have to say *I* don't hug and kiss folks I don't know well either and I've never had it demanded of me as an adult. Thus, I won't demand it of my kids. Do I encourage them to give grammy a hug or kiss? sure. But if they don't, they don't. we don't treat it like a big deal at all and they have all eventually warmed up to each other just fine.

Yes, she would be devastated. And the entire neighbourhood would hear about it, just from the sheer volume of her sobbing. Trust me, she's a Drama Queen unlike any other :glare:

[Murphy101]

Yes, my children are actually very happy to snuggle with their grandparents, whom they know better and who have never insisted on such displays of affection. It's the pushy-ness of BIL that seems to drive my kids away from him.

 

sounds perfectly normal to me.

I converred that the giggle afterwards you described was mostly the "nervous not sure how to react to this pushy adult" kind of thing rather than genuine enjoyment?

 

my kids would have gigled and laughed too probably, but that doesn't mean they weren't uncomfortable. and that would have been apparent next time because they would avoid the person like the plague next time they had to visit.

 

 

Yes, she would be devastated. And the entire neighbourhood would hear about it, just from the sheer volume of her sobbing. Trust me, she's a Drama Queen unlike any other :glare:

:lol: got it. know just what you mean. have a sister like that. you have my sympathy.

 

I just ignore it, but I can understand not being too eager to have to ignore it either. :D

[MelanieM]

Dirtroad, you seem to have an idea that nasty people are easy to spot, or only come in the form of strangers. Semi-goth in appearance or being a distant cousin does not a danger make. Statistically, the people most likely to be a danger to children are the ones closest to them, not some random person off the street. So again, if you're teaching that Uncle Skippy deserves affection just because he's Uncle Skippy, then how is the child to know it is ok to stand up for themselves when things go past their comfort zone? What happens when Uncle Skippy says "you know your mother wouldn't like it if you refused Uncle Skippy some hugs..."? Again, I'm curious how people deal with this when the family rule is you show physical affection regardless of how it makes you feel. How do you address it with your kids so that they know when they are allowed to stand up and say no?

 

Martha, it sounds like our kids are similar... They're happy to talk to anyone, and don't fear people in general.

 

I have seen my daughter express discomfort around a person (at a very young age) and I made a point to honour that and removed her from the situation. I feel good about reinforcing to her that I trust her intincts, and she should too. My hope for her in life is that she always feels confidence in standing up for herself in this way. It's the best form of protection I can imagine her having.

 

Impish, that sounds like emotional blackmail. I wouldn't take that from my kids, so I certainly wouldn't take it (or make my kids take it) from anyone else. Hopefully it will just be a non-issue for you so you don't have to deal with it at all.

[Dirtroad]

I teach discernment. Uncomfortable feelings in a 3 year old can be taken for a danger warning or just a child doesn't want to be bothered. They aren't old enough to know the difference & we are supposed to be helping them learn about it - not fear every adult relation we have who is a big gruff or loud or different. Without helping them step out of the shell & experience the "controlled" situations, how will they ever know how to handle the others. Just avoid them all? That is what I see happening in young people today.

 

Some seem to think family are worse than strangers. I do not, but think caution & evaluation are always needed. We all have people, in our families & neighborhoods, who have made evil or shameful decisions (some ought to be put under the jail!). However, for every situation we approach, as a family, we try to discuss it & make decisions.

 

As for Goth comments.... IT IS very strange behavior in our area & most Goths that are very troubled (that we encounter). As for their interest in PORN (guess you missed me adding that with goth)... I don't care who you are & I will not let my kids hang out with you.

 

People do give clues to their morality - constantly. Most of us don't pay attention in our busy lives or "don't want to judge". Our jobs as parents is to watch & make judgements/decisions. As we do this, we should teach our children to do the same.

 

My children are very outgoing. But I am amazed at the rudeness of the other children in their social circle when it comes to speaking to an adult, shaking a person's hand or hugging their close relatives. Their parents encourage it or reinforce it! Poor Johnny is so shy... yet he went screaming off to the next room to see the uncle he prefers. Good example of what I mean by manipulation or just plain dont' want to. It easier to say they don't have to than to teach them when it is appropriate or acceptible. Men also act differently than women. My entire life has been filled with uncles & cousins that horse-play (not harshly), roll around with kids, goose & tickle.... I never ever thought they were lurking pedophiles or teaching my children that violence is good. They were not & were NOT EVEN CLOSE.

 

Barriers must be broken down & we are supposed to help our kids learn the difference in a barrier/awkward and danger. I felt this post was NOT about danger but being a bit awkward.... and that is what I felt was to be overcome.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Dirtroad

[Dirtroad]

Oh regarding assault.... in our area, harrassment is a slap or contact or cursing of someone. I guess the uncle picking the child up for a bear hug or swing around would fall there... but doubt a court would do anything with it.

 

Assault requires the use of a weapon or some serious degree of medical attention needed.

 

The definition of assault would not apply here. That may explain how different posts use different vocabulary.

[kalanamak]

Uncomfortable feelings in a 3 year old can be taken for a danger warning or just a child doesn't want to be bothered. They aren't old enough to know the difference & we are supposed to be helping them learn about it - not fear every adult relation we have who is a big gruff or loud or different. Without helping them step out of the shell & experience the "controlled" situations, how will they ever know how to handle the others. Just avoid them all? That is what I see happening in young people today.

 

.

 

:iagree:

 

I recall once telling my young niece and nephew they were not excused from the table the moment their last bite was gulped, but that they needed to sit and listen to the BOA ("boring old adults") as some day, they'd grow up to be one, and (I whispered to them) if they learned how to do it from their wonderful extended family, they'd find it wasn't boring at all.

 

I think that child can learn about "appropriate" things. To strip off at the doctor's office is not the same as in the principal's office. To have a known neighbor slow down his car to offer a ride the last two blocks home in a cloud-burst to a 10 year old is NOT the same as a male offering a 14 year old girl a ride the last two blocks on a sunny day "cause she looks so lonely". I cannot recall a single lesson about being safe etc, beyond "don't get in a car with a stranger" mentioned once or twice, but my radar was up loud and clear when I was a teenage girl.

 

Having reasonable manners enough to "do in Rome as the Romans do" when it comes to craggy old relatives is good, IMO. I recall a woman telling me with horror about her 4 year old GD who, when asked to come sit on Grampa's lap for a story in the living room, said "oh, no, you might be trying to touch me privately". Ugh.

 

I trust MY radar. I wouldn't leave such responsibility up to my little guy. That said, my guy is not being passed around to distant relatives for the day, or day care, etc. If MY radar is up, kiddo wouldn't be given the opportunity to be alone with the person.

[MelanieM]

I'm not sure why people think 3 year olds don't know the difference between something that feels ok and something that doesn't. I have certainly seen my children, at that age and younger, show a great level of natural discernment around people and situations. Perhaps my kids are unusual? Or perhaps the fact that I have respected their preference, from birth, allows them a level of trust in their own guidance that some of you aren't familiar with in young children. I suppose if what I believe to be true really is the case, then that would make sense; if one insists on making these decisions for their children then I don't know how they would be able to ever show self-guidance until old enough to think their way through it. Personally, I prefer sharp instincts to intellectual navigation, as the former allows for instinctive understanding in unknown situations. With regards to the latter, I worry about the child that encounters a situation I've not offered up 'rules' about.

 

Also, I think requiring a child to sit at a table and interact with family until everyone is done is a far cry fromm requiring a child to override personal boundaries and show physical affection when unwanted. Definitely comparing apples and spaghetti-o's there.

[chaik76]

That's exactly my point. The child is requested to be in the picture, a family gathering picture, and it upsets others when he's not. In that case, yes, I would override the child and insist that he cooperates. There are times when a child, as is the case with many adults, has to 'suck it up' and do something they don't feel like doing. Getting a picture taken isn't an invasion of privacy, isn't an invasion of personal space, isn't a physical assault. Being hugged, kissed, etc against your wishes very much is.

Because I consider someone taking my picture without my permission to be an invasion of my privacy, I do not force my children to have their pictures taken, even in group settings. I do not force my children to do things that I am not willing to do myself. I believe that children deserve the same (earned) respect as adults.

[chaik76]

 

I've been thinking about this thread. My MIL visits once a year. As much as her and I don't get along well, I know she would be devastated if our children refused to hug and kiss her, and I can TOTALLY see Wolf forcing the issue with them. I honestly don't know what I'd do then. I mean, it IS their grandmother...*sigh*

It bugs the grandparents a *lot* when our oldest won't hug or kiss them. We don't make him although we do gently encourage him. If he says no, we respect that. I don't hug most people, so I don't expect it of children who feel the same way. My second son, on the other hand, has literally walked up to strangers and asked them to pick him up...

[Dirtroad]

You are still confusing a hug from a safe & watched uncle with a pedophile or gropiing neighbor! They too are apples and oranges.

 

And no, I do not feel that a 3 year old has developed enough skills to read a room & make adequate decisions. They may feel fear or some reserve (not argued).... but they are not equipped to make most decisions. If this was the case, they would not need parents.

 

As for being equipped, that is what LEARNING & GUIDANCE & DISCUSSION is about. Not saying okay to everything. Emotions may be cues, but they can't rule in our lives (complete chaos changing on whims). Our personal preferences are selfish and prefer the easy road... it takes teaching to break or train this desire. That is why we have parents teaching, guiding, and helping.

 

And, perhaps it is traumatic for the child to listen to all those old folks tell those tales..... the child should be allowed the ability to leave the room immediately and satisfy the desire to be free & play & be a child... why make them sit still, conform a bit, put others first and learn something. It could be devastating to their self esteem. (this is complete sarcasm, but I am hoping to show that it is the same thought process). You are still forcing someone to do something AGAINST THEIR WILL.

[Greta]

I constantly see children use stuff like this to manipulate and control.

 

I don't understand what you mean by this. :confused:

 

But as to the rest of it, I will say that I for one am NOT going to teach my daughter that she has to accept any physical contact with which she is uncomfortable (unless for medical reasons or something of that nature). I was just commenting in another thread yesterday about all the women I know who have suffered sexual abuse, and I am not about to even plant the idea in my daughter's head that she has to accept ANY touch from ANYONE that she doesn't want to. It's not all about fear. It's also about respecting her rights. Which is worse in the long run, really? Uncle gets slightly offended? Or daughter learns that her feelings about not wanting to be touched should be shoved down and ignored?

 

But a 3 year old doesn't have your wisdom & is usually just not wanting to be bothered.

Not wanting to be bothered, imo, is a perfectly valid reason for ANYONE to not want to be touched, whether they are 3 or 30.

 

If you override your 3 yo's instincts and insist on someone touching her against her will, no matter how kind that person may be or how innocent the touch, look at the precedent you have set. You have taught her that her instincts can't be trusted, and that she should rely instead upon the judgment of people older and more powerful than she is. That's fine when that older more powerful person is someone who has her best interests at heart, but what about when it isn't?

 

My dd is a very physically affectionate child. She hugs her father and I constantly, and her friends and extended family quite a bit too. I hope that the experience of human touch will always be something positive for her. I intend to do everything in my power to assure that it is. And that means honoring her rights and choices. Children are people too. They do not exist to flatter the egos of adults.

 

Plus, shyness comes to us all and we should learn to master it b/c as an adult is is crippling.

Shyness isn't the only or even the worst thing that can affect an adult's emotional well-being. Edited June 8, 2009 by GretaLynne

[Murphy101]

I'm not sure why people think 3 year olds don't know the difference between something that feels ok and something that doesn't. I have certainly seen my children, at that age and younger, show a great level of natural discernment around people and situations. Perhaps my kids are unusual? Or perhaps the fact that I have respected their preference, from birth, allows them a level of trust in their own guidance that some of you aren't familiar with in young children. I suppose if what I believe to be true really is the case, then that would make sense; if one insists on making these decisions for their children then I don't know how they would be able to ever show self-guidance until old enough to think their way through it. Personally, I prefer sharp instincts to intellectual navigation, as the former allows for instinctive understanding in unknown situations. With regards to the latter, I worry about the child that encounters a situation I've not offered up 'rules' about.

 

Also, I think requiring a child to sit at a table and interact with family until everyone is done is a far cry fromm requiring a child to override personal boundaries and show physical affection when unwanted. Definitely comparing apples and spaghetti-o's there.

 

:iagree:

 

I also do not comprehend this notion that a child is being disrespectful or manipulative by not faking affection when it's demanded of them to make others happy. If those others are that insecure, then they are the ones being childish.

 

Because I consider someone taking my picture without my permission to be an invasion of my privacy, I do not force my children to have their pictures taken, even in group settings. I do not force my children to do things that I am not willing to do myself. I believe that children deserve the same (earned) respect as adults.

 

Me too.

[MelanieM]

You are still confusing a hug from a safe & watched uncle with a pedophile or gropiing neighbor! They too are apples and oranges.

 

No, actually, I'm not confusing these things at all. Because it's not the point. I don't tell my kids they don't need to show physical affection if they don't want to because of fear of Uncle Skippy (as I've said previously on this thread). I tell them they don't have to do it because it is more important to me that they feel empowered around issues of physical space than it is that they feel like they're supposed to make anyone else happy. I want them to understand that the choice is theirs. Period. I really don't care if Uncle Skippy doesn't like it. That's his emotional baggage to deal with.

 

As for being equipped, that is what LEARNING & GUIDANCE & DISCUSSION is about. Not saying okay to everything. Emotions may be cues, but they can't rule in our lives (complete chaos changing on whims). Our personal preferences are selfish and prefer the easy road... it takes teaching to break or train this desire. That is why we have parents teaching, guiding, and helping.

 

 

We have a completely different viewpoint on this one. I believe that we have been blessed with emotional guidance as a way to understand what is right from wrong, and that our emotions help lead us appropriately through life. The only reason, from my perspective, to have to teach a child in that regard is if we've removed their internal guidance system in favour of replacing it with something else, and then we have to fill them with all sorts of rules because they are out of touch with that inner knowing. But I understand that not everyone believes we are born perfectly fine and nothing need be broken or fixed, so that's cool too. Go with what works for you. ;)

 

And, perhaps it is traumatic for the child to listen to all those old folks tell those tales..... the child should be allowed the ability to leave the room immediately and satisfy the desire to be free & play & be a child... why make them sit still, conform a bit, put others first and learn something. It could be devastating to their self esteem. (this is complete sarcasm, but I am hoping to show that it is the same thought process). You are still forcing someone to do something AGAINST THEIR WILL.

 

Well, I wouldn't actually force a child to sit at a table with the adults, either. But that's beside the point... I was only addressing that to point out that it has nothing to do with the topic being discussed in this thread, which is the impact of forced affection on a child's personal safety. These issues just simply aren't comparable.

 

But as to the rest of it, I will say that I for one am NOT going to teach my daughter that she has to accept any physical contact with which she is uncomfortable (unless for medical reasons or something of that nature). I was just commenting in another thread yesterday about all the women I know who have suffered sexual abuse, and I am not about to even plant the idea in my daughter's head that she has to accept ANY touch from ANYONE that she doesn't want to. It's not about fear. It's about respecting her rights. Which is worse in the long run, really? Uncle gets slightly offended? Or daughter learns that her feelings about not wanting to be touched should be shoved down and ignored?

 

Not wanting to be bothered, imo, is a perfectly valid reason for ANYONE to not want to be touched, whether they are 3 or 30.

 

If you override your 3 yo's instincts and insist on someone touching her against her will, no matter how kind that person may be or how innocent the touch, look at the precedent you have set. You have taught her your assumption: you have taught her that her instincts can't be trusted, and that she should rely instead upon the judgment of people older and more powerful than she is. That's fine when that older more powerful person is someone who has her best interests at heart, but what about when it isn't?

 

My dd is a very physically affectionate child. She hugs her father and I constantly, and her friends and extended family quite a bit too. I hope that the experience of human touch will always be something positive for her. I intend to do everything in my power to assure that it is. And that means honoring her rights and choices. Children are people too. They do not exist to flatter the egos of adults.

 

Shyness isn't the only or even the worst thing that can affect an adult's emotional well-being.

:iagree: Yes yes YES! To this entire post.

 

 

I also do not comprehend this notion that a child is being disrespectful or manipulative by not faking affection when it's demanded of them to make others happy. If those others are that insecure, then they are the ones being childish.

 

 

I was actually struck by a touch of irony here... Isn't it funny that we would call a child that doesn't want to hug manipulative, when the only reason they would do so is because they are being manipulated by the adults around them?

 

I'm getting the feeling that a lot of this comes down to whether or not you view children as 'equal to' or 'lesser than'. I absolutely feel my children should have equal rights, and I have no interest in placing their needs below those of someone else just because they happen to have a few extra years in this lifetime.

[kalanamak]

I'm not sure why people think 3 year olds don't know the difference between something that feels ok and something that doesn't.

 

And potato chips taste better than carrots, and staying up all hours is more fun than going to bed. I am reminded of the footnote in WTM about learning to read and eating strawberries. Perhaps I view giving, e.g., ancient grandma a hug goodbye a form of respect I expect from a child. As a twig is bent, so grows the child. If you get out of something, or make yourself the center of attention by squealing and running off, they will be sure to repeat the technique. A brief word before departure about what is expected has worked for us. And my ancient mother was canny enough to not ask for a hug hello...she waited until they'd met a bit. But I am aware that the extremely old are frightening to a child, if they aren't around it regularly. Hence the forewarning, followed by a lovely embrace, and one of the rare photos I have of my mother.

[Peela]

Wow, its a sensitive issue. I can see Dirtroad's perspective though, as well as those who feel no child should ever be made to hug a relative.

I think perhaps our society has swung back to the opposite extreme as far as respecting the child's perspective goes. We are the parents and we can teach kids to respect their own boundaries AND also behave in a polite way with relatives. I think there is a balance there to be had, and I do think kids can be gently encouraged to overcome their shyness and step out from behind mother's skirts now and then. But, every situation is individual and I know there have been times I have become icy to get across a message to someone not respecting my boundaries, and I would do the same for my kids, too (off the top of my head I don't think I have ever felt the need but I may have done it so automatically it hasnt stuck in my mind).

Instead of hugging, what about teaching a child to shake hands?

In the end, if the person was being actually icky and insensitive...well, no, I would advocate for the child according to my own gut response, smile nicely and say something to the effect of "no, she doesnt want to" and perhaps pick her up myself to be clear, and reassuring to the child. But if the person is just being a bit insensitive to my particularly shy child, maybe I might encourage the child to extend themselves, or pick them up and take them over for a hug while never letting them go, as a compromise to keep everyone happy.

I dont think there is a one size fits all response I could agree to on this one.