He's such a nice looking young man (FL. school shooting)

[LarlaB]

Inside, I think all of us want evil to be readily recognizable. :(

Agreed. But it’s not. And “doing everything right†still won’t get rid of evil.

 

I’m a Christian and believe that evil/sin/brokenness is an unchangable part of our world and something that we can’t legislate away. That doesn’t mean we don’t work on it- but I just don’t understand the worldview that “if we all tried harder†we will get it right and there won’t be brokenness any more. Like if there are enough overhauls and programs and support and guidelines and compassion and and and and and...

 

I mean look at the story of the world...hatred and evil has always existed because sin and brokenness has always existed. We are not special or at a particular crisis point in the US...rather we are quite civilized examples of the same story all over again.

 

This 9yr old murderer looks like a baby to me.

[Caroline]

Agreed. But it’s not. And “doing everything right†still won’t get rid of evil.

 

I’m a Christian and believe that evil/sin/brokenness is an unchangable part of our world and something that we can’t legislate away. That doesn’t mean we don’t work on it- but I just don’t understand the worldview that “if we all tried harder†we will get it right and there won’t be brokenness any more. Like if there are enough overhauls and programs and support and guidelines and compassion and and and and and...

 

I mean look at the story of the world...hatred and evil has always existed because sin and brokenness has always existed. We are not special or at a particular crisis point in the US...rather we are quite civilized examples of the same story all over again.

 

This 9yr old murderer looks like a baby to me.

I don’t think anyone says we can get rid of the brokenness. But maybe we could find a way for the brokenness not to shoot up a schoool.

[LarlaB]

I don’t think anyone says we can get rid of the brokenness. But maybe we could find a way for the brokenness not to shoot up a schoool.

Absolutely! I’m not saying or implying otherwise....

 

It’s just a tone that I keep hearing which breaks my heart. It’s our human need to feel we can control our destiny and our world- and really we can’t. So we cover up that helpless feeling by screaming at people who we don’t agree with and naming them as the problem. It’s called blame shifting.

 

This kid murdered people because of evil and brokeness. The justice system failed to prevent it even with multiple reports. Current laws allowed him to buy guns. He was never treated for mental health issues and flew under the radar.

 

That’s just naming three aspects of an incredible complex, systemic issue. ALL of which need change!!!! But underlying it all, evil and brokenness. Still there.

[umsami]

Just wanted to add that pretty much everybody in jail (regardless of race, religion, etc.) came from crappy lives.  It's really rare to have the inmate who

"had everything"...stable loving family, good educational/job opportunities, good health care/mental health care, etc..... unless they're white collar criminals. ;)  

 

If you take away the inmates who experienced physical, emotional, or sexual abuse as a child....or witnessed or experienced domestic violence....or 

had parents with untreated mental illness or addiction....or they themselves had untreated mental illness or learning disabilities..... the jails would have a much smaller population than they do now.

 

Another big issue is that we are very much a punishment style jail system vs. a rehabilitative.  While people may receive health care, dental care, etc. in jail for the first time in a long time or ever (thus a good thing), it's often cut out when they need it most....once released.   We could learn a lot from Norway and other countries who have far lower recidivism rates, etc.  Of course, they also have a much better social safety net which aids ex-inmates as well.

 

I would much rather pay a higher portion of my income in taxes and have a healthier American citizenry of all stripes, than the way things are today.  

 

 

 

[Innisfree]

Agreed. But it’s not. And “doing everything right†still won’t get rid of evil.

 

I’m a Christian and believe that evil/sin/brokenness is an unchangable part of our world and something that we can’t legislate away. That doesn’t mean we don’t work on it- but I just don’t understand the worldview that “if we all tried harder†we will get it right and there won’t be brokenness any more. Like if there are enough overhauls and programs and support and guidelines and compassion and and and and and...

 

I mean look at the story of the world...hatred and evil has always existed because sin and brokenness has always existed. We are not special or at a particular crisis point in the US...rather we are quite civilized examples of the same story all over again.

 

This 9yr old murderer looks like a baby to me.

I think, deep down, this is one fault line in the cultural divides which have become so visible.

 

So many conditions, including mental illness, which were once universally ascribed to evil, have been shown to be physical.

 

Mental illness has physical causes. It is not caused by evil. It is explicable by the normal laws of the physical universe, even if we don't yet have all the answers about how it works. It is just as physical as a heart attack or the internal combustion engine.

 

I'm honestly not sure if I believe in evil, per se. But I certainly believe in broken people, and horrible consequences.

 

Isn't this the whole point of the Enlightenment? We can learn how the world works. The progress in understanding which that attitude has allowed is all around us, from Space X to the internet to medical technology. We have evidence that it works.

 

This 19 year old murderer looks like a baby to me, too. I see him as another victim. Someday, given a reasonably stable civilization and continued research, I hope kids like him can be helped before they harm others.

 

Editing to add that of course people are fallible and mistakes happen. Maybe that is what others would call original sin. I'm not arguing that we can make a perfect world, just highly skeptical about evil as opposed to sick/injured/flawed.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Innisfree

[Pam in CT]

re ways in which other countries/cultures demonstrate caring for children

I'm not sure which cultures you are highlighting here but this has not been my actual experience in other countries.

Yes some places get some things more right than us, they also often get some things more wrong.

I agree with you that we play a lot of lip service to children and families that is just that, while in fact our policies and culture often promote adult selfishness.

But no I haven't seen other cultures being consistently more child supportive.

Which makes me sad.

 

 

What I've noticed in our travels and in my own contact with families with different cultures here at home of course varies, very often on the basis of means/wealth.

 

Universal health care is a MASSIVE investment in children that virtually all wealthy countries have achieved through a range of policy mechanisms, that we have not here even achieved consensus is worth doing.

 

Far greater investment in education, starting earlier and running later, with a range of vocational and apprenticeship programs as well as the sorts of degree programs we excel at here for a very high price, is also nearly universal among our wealthy-nation counterparts.  Along with, and part of that investment, a far greater investment in, meaningful accreditation of, and cultural respect for teachers, which is a necessary part of the system.

 

(Again among our wealthy nation counterparts), a greater cultural acceptance of the need for safety and environmental standards, so kids aren't, for example, ingesting lead from the houses they live in or drinking tainted water from their taps.

 

_____

 

There is an extent to which all these sorts of investments are luxuries of the rich, and it is true that many developing countries do not do them.  But it is instructive that nations who have grown rapidly over the last 50 years -- Singapore, South Korea, Costa Rica -- have prioritized such social infrastructure and poured resources into them.  China, now, is moving in those directions even as we are gutting public education and moving the other way on health care and safety/environmental standards.  

 

Nations seeking concertedly to develop and prosper view investment in children's health and education as a long game, with payoff in the future.  

 

We simply do not have that conversation.  Our language around social infrastructure is around current costs, parents' rights, how hot button social issues should manifest in schools  ETA and, actually, in the availability of health care services as well. Valid concerns all, but all centered solidly in TODAY.  We simply do not have that long term "the path of our future is directed by decisions we enact today" frame.  When we talk about the water in Flint, how the ability of the kids drinking it to complete their educations, hold sustainable employment, and have healthy children themselves is affected does not enter the conversation in any serious way.

 

______

 

And everything is massively, horrifically harder in places without means or effective governance; and in families without sufficient income.  Obviously.

 

Still: I see much more intergenerational sacrifice -- extended families providing long term care for children and elderly, siblings sending money back "home" to help support nieces and nephews left behind, grandparents scrimping to contribute towards grandchildren's educations -- among my friends and students and acquaintances from other cultures, than the established American norm which I would characterize as much more "every nuclear family is an island."

 

_____

 

Indulgent smiles at noisy exuberant kids in restaurants and buses and houses of worship is a superficial indicator to be sure; far less important than health care and education.  Nonetheless: I see a "shut them up or take them away" grumpiness here, that I really don't see abroad.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Pam in CT

[LarlaB]

 

 

Editing to add that of course people are fallible and mistakes happen. Maybe that is what others would call original sin. I'm not arguing that we can make a perfect world, just highly skeptical about evil as opposed to sick/injured/flawed.

Yes that’s essentially what I’m saying. As a Christian that imperfection is lumped in with original sin.

 

I have MAs in counseling and theology and feel too familiar with the stories of painful brokenness yet the awareness that we are all still flawed and won’t always get it right.

 

That doesn’t mean we don’t try though!!!! It’s just the underlying reality (for me) that we can’t prevent or mandate everything to ensure that we will rid ourselves of the problems of pain and what I call brokenness.

 

For me, it’s the entire crux of my faith....that We can’t fix or right ourselves and are unable to find and maintain perfection. In my belief system, that constant striving and longing for better is a hopeless cause- without the recognition of my inadequacy and the inclusion of God.

 

Sorry I’m talking so much and going off topic. It’s been such a painful wistful thing to hear so many speaking as though we can fix all of this. We can certainly make it better. And I am first in line to make a difference in my community.

[umsami]

 

 

 

Still: I see much more intergenerational sacrifice -- extended families providing long term care for children and elderly, siblings sending money back "home" to help support nieces and nephews left behind, grandparents scrimping to contribute towards grandchildren's educations -- among my friends and students and acquaintances from other cultures, than the established American norm which I would characterize as much more "every nuclear family is an island."

 

 

 

This reminded me of when we lived in Brooklyn.  One would see elderly Asian (usually Chinese where we lived in Bensonhurst) at the grocery store with massive amounts of cans that they would collect each and every day, for hours.  They were turning them in for the 5 cent deposit.  That money went to help support their grandchildren....be it tutoring (very popular) or what not.  My guess is that they easily made $20-$50/day or more based on the size of the bags of cans I would see.  So an extra $100+/week (tax free) to help the family.  There was no concept of this is beneath me, it's how can I help my family do better? 

[Pam in CT]

re brokenness, God's task for us on earth, striving and being overwhelmed:

 

Agreed. But it’s not. And “doing everything right†still won’t get rid of evil.

I’m a Christian and believe that evil/sin/brokenness is an unchangable part of our world and something that we can’t legislate away. That doesn’t mean we don’t work on it- but I just don’t understand the worldview that “if we all tried harder†we will get it right and there won’t be brokenness any more. Like if there are enough overhauls and programs and support and guidelines and compassion and and and and and...

I mean look at the story of the world...hatred and evil has always existed because sin and brokenness has always existed. We are not special or at a particular crisis point in the US...rather we are quite civilized examples of the same story all over again....

I am Jewish; and have done enough interfaith work to be a little wary of how different are the worldviews / use of language, for "evil" and "sin," between different faith traditions.  

 

I have come to deeply appreciate the metaphor and language of "broken," though, as a quite helpful frame that enables people coming from different perspectives to grapple with IRL problems we face and how as a society we can seek to mitigate them.

 

Like you, I also don't believe we can legislate brokenness away, or if we all tried harder it wouldn't exist. 

 

My faith tradition teaches that even though we cannot eliminate brokenness entirely, or perfectly, we are mandated to do what we can, anyway.  

 

To heal a fractured world -- that brokenness that is so obvious -- is the task that God has given us; it is why we are here.  (There is even a mystical tradition that when God is persuaded we truly have done all we can to heal the world, then and only then, after we have achieved our divine purpose, will God complete the work.)  That is our task: Welcome the stranger, feed the hungry, clothe and house the poor, heal the sick, provide for the widow and orphan.

 

Protect the children.

 

 

Absolutely! I’m not saying or implying otherwise....

It’s just a tone that I keep hearing which breaks my heart. It’s our human need to feel we can control our destiny and our world- and really we can’t. So we cover up that helpless feeling by screaming at people who we don’t agree with and naming them as the problem. It’s called blame shifting.

This kid murdered people because of evil and brokeness. The justice system failed to prevent it even with multiple reports. Current laws allowed him to buy guns. He was never treated for mental health issues and flew under the radar.

That’s just naming three aspects of an incredible complex, systemic issue. ALL of which need change!!!! But underlying it all, evil and brokenness. Still there.

And, as well, I agree with the three aspects you've named as all being interlinked facets of a system that need change.

 

In naming those pieces as working in tandem, systemically, I think you are approaching one of what Nan in Mass once marvelously called "the sticky bits," the difficult patches of quicksand where attempts at dialogue across difference often collapse:  whether the eternal brokenness of the Earth we are doomed to share is solely a matter of individual brokenness, or can impersonal systems be broken too?

 

To take an example that is safely in the past: Was the problem with slavery one of individual behavior -- that particular owners raped and beat their captives as a matter of individual practice? Or was it the system itself, a system which extracted labor without compensation, denied all agency and freedom, forcibly separated parents from children and husbands from wives, as a matter of law and societal practice?  

 

In hindsight it is fairly uncontroversial to say that the SYSTEM exemplified brokenness; it was not merely a matter of individual owners acting badly.  

 

It is harder to see broken systems closer to home... but I *think* in naming failed LEO reporting and response mechanisms, current laws for vetting gun purchases, and access/provision of mental health services you are suggesting that not only individuals, but systems too, are part of the brokenness we are called to act upon?

 

If so: Me too.

 

 

 

 

Yes that’s essentially what I’m saying. As a Christian that imperfection is lumped in with original sin.

I have MAs in counseling and theology and feel too familiar with the stories of painful brokenness yet the awareness that we are all still flawed and won’t always get it right.

That doesn’t mean we don’t try though!!!! It’s just the underlying reality (for me) that we can’t prevent or mandate everything to ensure that we will rid ourselves of the problems of pain and what I call brokenness.

For me, it’s the entire crux of my faith....that We can’t fix or right ourselves and are unable to find and maintain perfection. In my belief system, that constant striving and longing for better is a hopeless cause- without the recognition of my inadequacy and the inclusion of God.

Sorry I’m talking so much and going off topic. It’s been such a painful wistful thing to hear so many speaking as though we can fix all of this. We can certainly make it better. And I am first in line to make a difference in my community.

 

I don't think it's off topic at all.  In a very real and immediate extent it IS the topic.

 

We can't fix it all.

 

We can make it better.

 

Making it better is... better.  Reducing the average number of people killed in an incident, by making the most efficient killing instruments harder to obtain, is... better.  Reducing the number of incidents, by increasing LEO ability to report warnings and suspicious behavior efficiently and to act to remove weapons in red-flag situations is... better.  Reducing the number of incidents by expanding access to better mental health services aimed at reducing alienation and anger, and improving conflict resolution and de-escalation skills is... better.

 

Not perfect.  To acknowledge that we will never heal ALL the brokenness is... well, on the one hand of course it IS painful and wistful.

 

:grouphug:

 

It is also human, though.  To be human, attempting to work at a task that is Sisyphean and eternal and endless, is necessarily to fall short of the mark. And yet: the work is sacred

 

 

 

I also often feel overwhelmed. In the face of mass shootings, I ALWAYS feel overwhelmed.  

 

Among the whole of my faith tradition, the teaching to which I return most often is this one:

 

We are not expected to complete the work; but neither may we refrain from picking it up and beginning.

 

 

 

[livetoread]

I am no longer religious, and I no longer believe that a deity is going to save us from ourselves. However, I also do not think we are likely to ever make everything alright in this world. Like Pam said though, we can do better. The history of our existence shows a trend towards making it better (and by better I mean increased empathy towards those outside our tribe and working towards reducing needless suffering). There have been marked backward steps, but by and large, our history is about widening our circle of empathy and reducing suffering. We HAVE made enormous progress, and we can continue to make progress if we believe it is important enough to try.

 

I don’t know of anyone who thinks we can legislate suffering away completely, or eradicate what the religious call evil. We can do better though, and it breaks my heart when I hear the argument that we can’t because only God can fix things (not saying anyone here is arguing that). The view that the world is going to get worse and worse and then God will finally step in and save some (the religious tradition I was brought up in) is counterproductive to making things better IMO. It puts an emphasis on individual acts of charity, but throws up its hands when it comes to systemic problems. Individual acts of charity are better than nothing, but it’s more helpful in the long run to ban slavery than to offer the slave a drink of water. Religious people have often been at the forefront of movements, but their faith did not say the best we can do is be nice to those less fortunate and wait for God to fix things.

 

Editing to add, I know those who hold the view that the world is destined to get worse, not better, often care deeply about their fellow humans too. It’s just that when faced with something awful, their response is not, “How can we make this better?†It’s “See, this is evidence of the brokenness of the world and how much we need God.†There is a difference that matters.

 

Editing again to add that I have no idea what our future holds. I don’t know that we will continue to do better. We might also wipe each other out. Until then though, we need to do our best to do better.

Edited February 19, 2018 by livetoread

[shawthorne44]

Usually I hear that "such a nice boy/man" regarding men who end up killing their entire families in domestic violence incidents.

 

"John was such a good father, such a nice neighbor."  (Who happened to murder his three young kids and wife....so no, not really.)

...

 

 

I know of one family annihilator that knew he was going to be exposed as someone that had molested at least one of his children.  The police hadn't been informed yet.   But, many of those that knew of the accusation where saying that the molestation wasn't possible and then after he killed all but one of his family, who wasn't home, 'They' said that the reason he killed his family was the false accusation.   The self-delusion.  

 

[Crimson Wife]

 

Finally, I cannot help but remember that these discussions about mental health issues only occur regarding white perps.  That itself is a big issue/problem.   Also, laws would need to change.  People who plan terrorist attacks (and are Muslim--thus usually charged with supporting a foreign terrorist org) can be imprisoned just for the thought, basically.   Even if they change their mind.   Not sure I agree with that, but I also wonder with somebody who is non-supporting ISIS or whatever, and is quite vocal about planning an attack as this man was, should they be able to be arrested/imprisoned as well?

 

Untrue. There was a lot of talk about mental illness with the DC sniper (remember the whole tarot cards being left at the scene of several of the crimes?) and also that veteran who shot up the Naval Shipyard. All of those mass shooters were black.

[SKL]

Yeah I really don't understand why the FBI / cops decided there wasn't enough to arrest this guy.  I always thought that if I went around saying I was going to kill people, the way he did, I would at least be picked up by the cops and investigated.  It would be pretty easy to see that this guy had a considerable pattern of dangerous thoughts, words, actions, intentions.  At the very least he should have been psychologically examined and had his guns taken away.

 

Whether the outcome of this situation will lead to positive change, I don't know.  I have to hope so.

 

I don't agree that we don't care about kids in this country.  I do think some kids are failed.  That is true in every country though.  This young man was in the middle of the perfect storm.

 

Now some in the adoption community (of which I am a member) are saying they should not be bringing up the adoption angle.  However, I disagree.  I want policy-makers to understand that the adoption community needs better access to mental health services. 

 

That said, even with mental health services, some bad shit will happen.  We can only hope it will be less than it has been in the past.

[unsinkable]

I saw the video of his court hearing today.

 

His body language has completely changed.

 

Like I said in the other thread...The next mass killers already have their weapons. We need to do everything we can but I don't have any illusions that this won't happen again.

[hornblower]

Yeah I really don't understand why the FBI / cops decided there wasn't enough to arrest this guy.  I always thought that if I went around saying I was going to kill people, the way he did, I would at least be picked up by the cops and investigated.  It would be pretty easy to see that this guy had a considerable pattern of dangerous thoughts, words, actions, intentions.  At the very least he should have been psychologically examined and had his guns taken away. 

I just read about this in a twitter thread. I didn't know a lot of this stuff but maybe it's old news to others: 

 

"Reminder that in California, the parents of the UCSB shooter warned police that their adult son was armed and a danger to himself or others. The police explained that the law didn't allow them to disarm their son. That's why we passed Red Flag Laws in the state soon after."

 

"Only five states have Red Flag Laws that allow families or police to petition a judge for a restraining order to temporarily disarm people who pose a danger to themselves or others. Florida is NOT one of those states."

 

"Red Flag Laws have robust due process protections. They also help address another American gun violence epidemic—firearm suicide. A 2017 study of Connecticut’s Red Flag Law found that the law has already averted an estimated 72 or more suicides."

 

more here: https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/965691955584712704

[Lady Florida.]

I just read about this in a twitter thread. I didn't know a lot of this stuff but maybe it's old news to others: 

 

"Reminder that in California, the parents of the UCSB shooter warned police that their adult son was armed and a danger to himself or others. The police explained that the law didn't allow them to disarm their son. That's why we passed Red Flag Laws in the state soon after."

 

"Only five states have Red Flag Laws that allow families or police to petition a judge for a restraining order to temporarily disarm people who pose a danger to themselves or others. Florida is NOT one of those states."

 

"Red Flag Laws have robust due process protections. They also help address another American gun violence epidemic—firearm suicide. A 2017 study of Connecticut’s Red Flag Law found that the law has already averted an estimated 72 or more suicides."

 

more here: https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/965691955584712704

 

I read today that a Florida lawmaker (a Republican at that) is looking at several proposals for new gun restrictions. While one of those proposals doesn't use the term Red Flag Law it calls for expanding the Baker Act* to allow LEOs to take a person's guns away until they're no longer a threat. 

 

*The Baker Act is Florida's involuntary examination/commitment law, probably named after the guy who came up with it. Floridians often use the term as a verb, as in, "He was Baker-Acted to the psych ward"

 

It's a start. And it's a Republican. I'm glad to see a Republican taking a strong stand (there were other proposals he named that are also being looked at).  It shows there IS common ground.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Lady Florida.

[umsami]

Untrue. There was a lot of talk about mental illness with the DC sniper (remember the whole tarot cards being left at the scene of several of the crimes?) and also that veteran who shot up the Naval Shipyard. All of those mass shooters were black.

 

These are two of how many.... of course, mass shooters are far more likely to be white males anyways.

 

DC Sniper was what, early 2000? (Just checked 2002.)  

 

Mother Jones is continuing to update its database of mass shootings in the US since 1982.  It is eye-opening and heart breaking.  Includes info such as mental health, domestic violence if known, type of gun/weapon, race, where weapons obtained, obtained legally/not, etc.

 

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/

[SKL]

The comment that mass shooters are more likely to be white ... according to the Mother Jones data, of the ones that race was given only about 55% were white, which is less than the general % of white people in the US population.  I also note that quite a few had known mental issues.  In my recollection, mental issues are pretty much always discussed in connection with mass shooters.  Seems to me you have to be either crazy or completely brainwashed in order to do such a thing.

Edited February 20, 2018 by SKL

[umsami]

Of the 97 shootings

 

7 were Asian or 7.2%

16 were Black  16.5%

7 were Latino 7.2%

3 were Native American  3.1%

5 were Other; however, of those, the Orlando, Chattanooga, and Fort Hood guys were Arab which is classified as white per the US Census since 1944 I believe (could be earlier).  San Bernadino was Asian--Pakistan, Bangladesh, India....all are Asian countries.  (Others, is 5.2%.,,,,others being Muslims (4) is 4.1%)

1 was unclear 

The rest (58) were white 59.8%

 

So based on this....

 

 

If we were to fix the actual numbers, though,

the Asian number would go up to 8 making their percentage 8.3%

The white number would go up to 62, making their percentage  63.9%

 

If one looks at the most deadly, or by victims, it goes up even higher for white guys.

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by umsami

[SKL]

Of the 97 shootings

 

7 were Asian or 7.2%

16 were Black  16.5%

7 were Latino 7.2%

3 were Native American  3.1%

5 were Other; however, of those, the Orlando, Chattanooga, and Fort Hood guys were Arab which is classified as white per the US Census since 1944 I believe (could be earlier).  San Bernadino was Asian--Pakistan, Bangladesh, India....all are Asian countries.  (Others, is 5.2%.,,,,others being Muslims (4) is 4.1%)

1 was unclear 

The rest (58) were white 59.8%

 

So based on this....

 

 

If we were to fix the actual numbers, though,

the Asian number would go up to 8 making their percentage 8.3%

The white number would go up to 62, making their percentage  63.9%

 

If one looks at the most deadly, or by victims, it goes up even higher for white guys.

 

Actually some of them didn't state a race, though maybe those were "white," I don't know.

 

If it goes up to 63% then it's still roughly the same as the US male population.  In other words that is what you would expect if there was no "greater tendency" for any particular race to commit these acts.  In other words it would be great if people would stop saying this is a white male problem or we have a white male problem.  That is just a divisive and unhelpful comment.

 

The vast majority of gun murders are committed by two groups that are NOT white non-hispanic men.  So another reason not to try to make the gun murder issue a "white male" issue.

Edited February 20, 2018 by SKL

[unsinkable]

I know in my city there was a shooting that killed 4 and injured 4.

 

The definition MJ uses says they DO NOT count gang violence or situations like robberies.

 

It wasn't gang violence or a robbery, so I'm not sure why it isn't on there.

[Lady Florida.]

 

*The Baker Act is Florida's involuntary examination/commitment law, probably named after the guy who came up with it. Floridians often use the term as a verb, as in, "He was Baker-Acted to the psych ward"

 

 

 

I'm quoting myself and going off topic but it's to correct something. I looked up the Baker Act. It was named after a woman, FL Rep. Maxine Baker, who fought for the rights of the mentally ill.  She was one of the first to help bring treatment of mental illness in Florida out of the dark ages, and to insist the mentally ill shouldn't have to give up their patient rights or dignity. 

 

I just felt like that needed correction.

[umsami]

I'm quoting myself and going off topic but it's to correct something. I looked up the Baker Act. It was named after a woman, FL Rep. Maxine Baker, who fought for the rights of the mentally ill.  She was one of the first to help bring treatment of mental illness in Florida out of the dark ages, and to insist the mentally ill shouldn't have to give up their patient rights or dignity. 

 

I just felt like that needed correction.

 

Oh wow, I never knew that.  I always assumed it was named after James Baker and came about after the Hinckley shooting.  Not sure why.

[Kassia]

Oh wow, I never knew that.  I always assumed it was named after James Baker and came about after the Hinckley shooting.  Not sure why.

 

I did, too.

[Lady Florida.]

Oh wow, I never knew that.  I always assumed it was named after James Baker and came about after the Hinckley shooting.  Not sure why.

 

 

I did, too.

 

 

I guess sometimes it's good to be the old lady. :) I remember hearing the term (usually when someone was Baker Acted) in the 70s. So Hinckley never entered my mind since that happened much later. 

[Cosmos]

Oh wow, I never knew that.  I always assumed it was named after James Baker and came about after the Hinckley shooting.  Not sure why.

 

You may be thinking of the Brady Bill, named for James Brady.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Handgun_Violence_Prevention_Act

[gardenmom5]

Untrue. There was a lot of talk about mental illness with the DC sniper (remember the whole tarot cards being left at the scene of several of the crimes?) and also that veteran who shot up the Naval Shipyard. All of those mass shooters were black.

 

a number of years ago the jewish federation center in seattle was shot up.  six shot, one killed. (he tried to shoot a pregnant woman's stomach- but hit her arm.)  what I remember most was in the news it was discussed as Mental illness.  - the shooter was muslim, and yelling about his hatred of jews.   apparently they did have a competency hearing, and he was eventually convicted of a hate crime  (I looked it up, and was surprised)  - but mental illness was how it was presented in the news for a long time afterwards.

[Kassia]

You may be thinking of the Brady Bill, named for James Brady.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Handgun_Violence_Prevention_Act

 

Yes, that's it!  Thanks!