College and wealth

[DawnM]

Sadly, I have worked as a guidance counselor in the past and found that my colleagues were largely paper pushers for disciplinary problems and interpersonal issues between parents and teachers. They were entirely ignorant of the current college application process as well as admission's requirements, merit aid options, FAFSA,etc. Many of the ones in our county's districts had high school seniors whom I had to guide through their process because guidance mom or dad was making SERIOUS mistakes.

 

 

 

 

I thought you worked in a small private school?  How long did you work there?  Or did you work for the district?

[creekland]

If someone wanted to see if there were any programs nearby that needed volunteer counselors, what search terms should they use?

 

Perhaps check with your local Parent Teacher Organization/Association (PTO/PTA) or see if your local school has a counselor for the college bound?  I might also check with Social Services or similar.

 

I know our school had about 4 years of having a dedicated college counselor paid for via one of those Teach For America types of programs (not that one, but something similar).  When it came time to take that person on in our own budget, it didn't make the cut so now we have no one - just the regular counselors having to do it all from discipline to graduation requirements to college advice and forms.  Not even a push to the public for funding came up with enough.  Local culture means a ton.  Our school offers parent seminars about financial aid and similar, but for those who are working during those times or just don't feel their kids are up to snuff for college due to lack of experience, they're of limited use.

 

I encourage kids and offer advice as I see the need when I'm at school or among friends.  I don't know that I feel totally qualified/knowledgeable about all the options available to discuss and that's with seeing oodles of students and going through the process with my own three.  There's a ton of info to know and oodles of colleges or technical school opportunities.

[FaithManor]

I thought you worked in a small private school? How long did you work there? Or did you work for the district?

I have done both. There were many years when I wasn't on this board or not much, when I was working part time and homeschooling. I have served as the assistant to the local guidance counselor for more than one semester two different times during the course of her cancer treatments, and have been sent to more than one professional conference for this. Unfortunately, the pay was sub teacher pay which isn't much for the grief incurred. But I am friends with several teachers in the district and the school has had a difficult time attracting anyone else to fill her shoes at times when she was too sick to come into work. It is very sad what the job actually entails instead of what it should be! I have since let license expire so will not be doing that again.

 

I am currently assisting the teachers that run the freebie Saturday seminars, but that is a volunteer thing because I support what they do and think it is ready important for the kids in the community.

 

The private school gig was very, very part time. I was hired to do ACT prep and teach an hour of chemistry per day, do some algebra tutoring here and there. Ended up the defunct guidance counselor. That was a very UGH position to be in, and though they have asked me back more than once, the answer is an emphatic "NO!"

 

At any rate, for my region, guidance counselors have been and currently are dealing with a lot of NON guidance counselor stuff and have profoundly limited knowledge of academic advising issues which is a very, very sad state of affairs.

[DawnM]

I have done both. There were many years when I wasn't on this board or not much, when I was working part time and homeschooling. I have served as the assistant to the local guidance counselor for more than one semester two different times during the course of her cancer treatments, and have been sent to more than one professional conference for this. Unfortunately, the pay was sub teacher pay which isn't much for the grief incurred. But I am friends with several teachers in the district and the school has had a difficult time attracting anyone else to fill her shoes at times when she was too sick to come into work. It is very sad what the job actually entails instead of what it should be! I have since let license expire so will not be doing that again.

 

I am currently assisting the teachers that run the freebie Saturday seminars, but that is a volunteer thing because I support what they do and think it is ready important for the kids in the community.

 

The private school gig was very, very part time. I was hired to do ACT prep and teach an hour of chemistry per day, do some algebra tutoring here and there. Ended up the defunct guidance counselor. That was a very UGH position to be in, and though they have asked me back more than once, the answer is an emphatic "NO!"

 

At any rate, for my region, guidance counselors have been and currently are dealing with a lot of NON guidance counselor stuff and have profoundly limited knowledge of academic advising issues which is a very, very sad state of affairs.

 

 

You let your teaching license lapse?  How hard would it be to get it back?

 

Sub pay is horrible and I wouldn't do it.  

 

What do you consider non-counseling stuff?

[FaithManor]

You let your teaching license lapse? How hard would it be to get it back?

 

Sub pay is horrible and I wouldn't do it.

 

What do you consider non-counseling stuff?

I would not pay for the necessary hoops to get it back. Teaching in Michigan is a very bad gig these days, and the pay is getting lower and lower. Benefits are shrinking. I am not planning on returning to that environment as an employee of the state of Michigan. I am however going to be paid a reasonable amount of money as a subject matter expert in STEM through a private education consulting firm. I answer to a different boss. The pay is not great but will pay in state tuition, books, and travel expenses for two boys us have something left over to begin my own 401k with a tiny bit of employer matching...that is the key...that free employer matching. Otherwise I would just put the little bit I can save I to the Roth.

 

The no counseling - babysitting students who won't behave in class, endless paperwork that the principal should be doing on discipline issues but shoves off on the guidance counselor, running interference between parents and principal, parents and teachers essentially spending a lot of time on other people's professional communications problems instead of actually meeting with students and doing academic and career advising. As it is, incoming 9th graders no longer even get a single meeting with the guidance counselor to help set up their freshman year classes, and course listings have to be requested of the school Secretary who knows not a thing about them because the counselor has no time. When I assisted, I spent the better part of my days being the go to "I do not want to deal with this" person for the principal, a paper pusher for the assistant principal, and the wing man for the algebra 1 teacher who spent a lot of time dealing with angry parents because he was ridiculously disorganised and never returned emails or phone calls which resulted in raging communications sent to the principal and forwarded to me. Apparently the word "counselor" meant behavioral psychologist to them. The paperwork is the worst. If you do have an advising appointment, the level of documentation required in the local school districts is insane. If I spent 15 minutes talking with a kid about college applications, I had to spend 30 minutes documenting everything I said to the student which meant I ended up recording the conversations. Unfortunately, that made a lot of kids nervous. They do not want it on play back that they said, "My parents refuse to tell me how much they make so I cannot figure out if I will be able to get Pell grant or not."

 

And for sub pay.

 

The first time around, I did it to help the school out in a pinch - and frankly, secretly hoping that in doing so they would let my homeschooling Dd into band, ha ha pipe dream - and the second time was strictly because I had become friends with the gal that occupied the position and felt a lot of compassion for her going through another full semester plus of chemo. She really wanted me back to fill her shoes when too sick, and the school was willing to make the hours flexible so workable with homeschooling.

 

Not happening again though. She has retired, and frankly, it is major burn out to not do what the job should entail, actual days of academic and career advising, helping kids set goals and make paths to achieve them, getting 8th graders set up for high school, assisting seniors, finding work experience and internships for students, coordinating the volunteer opportunities for students who needed them.

[Bootsie]

I am a first generation college graduate as is my husband.

 

I was raised by a single mom, lower income, rural. I did attend a highschool that was generally much higher income.

 

Things are different now but back then we had very little guidance for college. My mom was encouraging but knew nothing about the process, options, etc. I did it all myself (and made quite a few mistakes along the way). She didn't even go to college visits with me.

 

There is a big need for mentors and counselors for middle and highschool students (and their families) to help navigate the system. I never even heard of test prep for the ACT/SAT. I just signed up, went, and got my score.

 

I can imagine that it is even harder for many minority students. DH is Native and has experienced a lot of discrimination and issues.

None of my grandparents finished high school (two grandparents didn't even go to high school).  My dad did go complete college (on a football scholarship) my mom attended college until my parents married but never finished.  Even though I am not a first generation college graduate, most of this describes my college experience. 

 

My parents were 'if you want to go to college, fine... the local college would be just about as good as anything else.  You will figure out a way to make it work financially if you want..."  Any mention of an upper-tier or private school would be followed by "you probably would feel out of place and be miserable."  I went to one college visit; my parents were with me because we stopped at a college 4 hours from home to break up a trip to visit relative you lived 8 hours away.  

 

My high school counselor never discussed college or any plans after high school with me.  Her goal was to make sure everyone graduated from high school.  She ended up being out for an extended part of my junior/senior years because she was pregnant and had serious complications.  I never heard of any test prep for ACT (and knew no one how even took the SAT).  In fact, we were told that there was no way to prep for these tests.  

 

What my dad knew about getting a football scholarship to pay for college was useless for me.  What he knew about majoring in physical education to be a high school football coach was useless when I wanted to major in something totally different and go on to graduate school.  I never had an internship and never had anyone encourage me to get one.  I received little guidance about how to apply to grad schools.

[DawnM]

 

The no counseling - babysitting students who won't behave in class, endless paperwork that the principal should be doing on discipline issues but shoves off on the guidance counselor, running interference between parents and principal, parents and teachers essentially spending a lot of time on other people's professional communications problems instead of actually meeting with students and doing academic and career advising. As it is, incoming 9th graders no longer even get a single meeting with the guidance counselor to help set up their freshman year classes, and course listings have to be requested of the school Secretary who knows not a thing about them because the counselor has no time. When I assisted, I spent the better part of my days being the go to "I do not want to deal with this" person for the principal, a paper pusher for the assistant principal, and the wing man for the algebra 1 teacher who spent a lot of time dealing with angry parents because he was ridiculously disorganised and never returned emails or phone calls which resulted in raging communications sent to the principal and forwarded to me. Apparently the word "counselor" meant behavioral psychologist to them. The paperwork is the worst. If you do have an advising appointment, the level of documentation required in the local school districts is insane. If I spent 15 minutes talking with a kid about college applications, I had to spend 30 minutes documenting everything I said to the student which meant I ended up recording the conversations. Unfortunately, that made a lot of kids nervous. They do not want it on play back that they said, "My parents refuse to tell me how much they make so I cannot figure out if I will be able to get Pell grant or not."

 

 

 

 

A lot of that IS part of what a school counselor does though.  I am actually surprised your district still refers to them as guidance counselors.....that term went out in CA in the 80s and it isn't used here either.  It tended to have a derogatory connotation AND was very narrow in focus.

 

Anyway, regardless of what they are called, they don't only focus on academics.  That is one portion of what they need to do.  If you look at the American School Counselor Association (ASCA) website, it is very concise in scope compared to years where School Counselors were dumped on and didn't have a specific job description.

 

School Counselors do academic and college/career counseling, but the social/emotional portion tends to take up a lot of time and to be fair, many who are struggling DO have the social/emotional component that needs addressing before they can gain competencies in the academic or college counseling.  

 

And, while I HATE the paper pushing, it is a necessary evil and a very strong part of what a counselor does, scheduling, credit checks, etc....

 

Gotta head out the door at the moment:

 

https://www.schoolcounselor.org/asca/media/asca/home/RoleStatement.pdf

[FaithManor]

A lot of that IS part of what a school counselor does though.  I am actually surprised your district still refers to them as guidance counselors.....that term went out in CA in the 80s and it isn't used here either.  It tended to have a derogatory connotation AND was very narrow in focus.

 

Anyway, regardless of what they are called, they don't only focus on academics.  That is one portion of what they need to do.  If you look at the American School Counselor Association (ASCA) website, it is very concise in scope compared to years where School Counselors were dumped on and didn't have a specific job description.

 

School Counselors do academic and college/career counseling, but the social/emotional portion tends to take up a lot of time and to be fair, many who are struggling DO have the social/emotional component that needs addressing before they can gain competencies in the academic or college counseling.  

 

And, while I HATE the paper pushing, it is a necessary evil and a very strong part of what a counselor does, scheduling, credit checks, etc....

 

Gotta head out the door at the moment:

 

https://www.schoolcounselor.org/asca/media/asca/home/RoleStatement.pdf

Well, no one here is doing the academic part, the career part, the internship part, the nothing...all they do is behavioral and without a psych or social work degree to boot.

 

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think that someone in the school should be doing academic and career counseling and that they should be focused on that in order to do it right.

 

As for behind the times? I live in rural Michigan, my state, and in particular my region of the state, hasn't gotten the memo on A LOT of things, LOL.

[creekland]

FWIW, they're still called Guidance Counselors here in PA, and yes, they do everything.  I wish we had that slot back (at our school) where the person solely did college related counseling.  It's a big job - as is everything else - enough to specialize.

[Carol in Cal.]

FWIW, at DD's brick and mortar Catholic high school they had 3-4 counsellors, and 1 college counsellor.  They considered these separate functions.

[luuknam]

100% agreed. It burns me up that 40% of high schools in the U.S. have more cops than guidance counselors.

 

 

Um... that's only 40% of the biggest 10 school districts. And we don't even know how many of the high schools in those districts have more cops than counsellors - just that the districts overall do. Which, of course, is an issue, but it's not the same as saying that 40% of high schools in the US have more cops than counsellors. 

 

Unfortunately, it seems like it's pretty hard to find numbers for most schools/school districts. I managed to find out how many counsellors my kids' old school district has (1 for every 330 kids), but I can't find their security guard numbers. And I can't find numbers for either for their new school district. 

[Guest]

A lot of that IS part of what a school counselor does though. I am actually surprised your district still refers to them as guidance counselors.....that term went out in CA in the 80s and it isn't used here either. It tended to have a derogatory connotation AND was very narrow in focus.

 

Anyway, regardless of what they are called, they don't only focus on academics. That is one portion of what they need to do. If you look at the American School Counselor Association (ASCA) website, it is very concise in scope compared to years where School Counselors were dumped on and didn't have a specific job description.

 

School Counselors do academic and college/career counseling, but the social/emotional portion tends to take up a lot of time and to be fair, many who are struggling DO have the social/emotional component that needs addressing before they can gain competencies in the academic or college counseling.

 

And, while I HATE the paper pushing, it is a necessary evil and a very strong part of what a counselor does, scheduling, credit checks, etc....

 

Gotta head out the door at the moment:

 

https://www.schoolcounselor.org/asca/media/asca/home/RoleStatement.pdf

Interesting. Here the social /emotional is done by speciists...several psychologists and one social worker, although the nurse, nurse assistant, gcs, police officer and the APs are available in crisis. Group therapy is available weekly.

 

The gcs here just do scheduling, course changes, and their part of scholarships and college apps. They do not recommend any college to anyone, because a few years back they were giving bum advice and refusing to do the paperwork for reach schools.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[SKL]

Speaking of test prep - when I was in high school, it was considered unethical to prep for a standardized test, including the SAT / ACT.

 

I still feel conflicted about the idea of prepping for them.  I wonder what % of kids don't prep, and how they do compared to the preppers.

[Guest]

Speaking of test prep - when I was in high school, it was considered unethical to prep for a standardized test, including the SAT / ACT.

 

I still feel conflicted about the idea of prepping for them. I wonder what % of kids don't prep, and how they do compared to the preppers.

When I was in high schoool, it was unethical to offer a course and omit a significant amount of material. Challenge was offered to everyone..today everyone gets basic, just enough to pass a Regents Exam, and those that have the means do the rest of the course afterschool. Teachers here even advise on the best prep book to use if you want to score more than a 70 On Regents or a 3 on AP.

[kroe1]

Reading these boards over the years scared me to death. I have friends who hired college coaches for their private and public school kids when the kids were only in 9th grade. I was expecting my homeschool kid to not make it into college at all. But, all she did was sign herself up for an ACT test, do a little research online, apply online, fill out scholarship forms, and fill out the FAFSA online. Even her essay was typed online without me reading it. She got in easily everywhere she wanted. Granted, she was not going Ivy League. But, it was easy. So why do we need guidance counselors exactly? Please, I do not ask the question snarkily. I just see the benefit dwindling compared to our need 100 years ago when I was going to college. I remember the only place to get many of the application forms could only be found in a guidance counselor' office.

 

Now, having asked the question, I know DD did not get a lot of potential scholarship money because she did not know where to look.

[sassenach]

Revisionist History had a great series of podcasts that addressed these issues. "Carlos Doesn't Remember" was the first in the 3-part series.

 

Something that really stood out was how college amenities affect financial aid, not just on an individual basis, but globally. When one college gives very little aid but has over the top amenities, there is a reverberating effect on other colleges that offer lots of aid, but not as many amenities (the podcast focused on food).

 

 

 

 

[creekland]

Speaking of test prep - when I was in high school, it was considered unethical to prep for a standardized test, including the SAT / ACT.

 

I still feel conflicted about the idea of prepping for them.  I wonder what % of kids don't prep, and how they do compared to the preppers.

 

I was in high school in the early 80s and we had an SAT prep class that met twice per week for those of us who were college bound.  It was a mandatory class.

 

My (public) school regularly sent top kids to top schools.

 

I've never heard anything about prepping being "unethical."

 

 

Reading these boards over the years scared me to death. I have friends who hired college coaches for their private and public school kids when the kids were only in 9th grade. I was expecting my homeschool kid to not make it into college at all. But, all she did was sign herself up for an ACT test, do a little research online, apply online, fill out scholarship forms, and fill out the FAFSA online. Even her essay was typed online without me reading it. She got in easily everywhere she wanted. Granted, she was not going Ivy League. But, it was easy. So why do we need guidance counselors exactly? Please, I do not ask the question snarkily. I just see the benefit dwindling compared to our need 100 years ago when I was going to college. I remember the only place to get many of the application forms could only be found in a guidance counselor' office.

 

Now, having asked the question, I know DD did not get a lot of potential scholarship money because she did not know where to look.

 

For students going to less selective colleges and where finances aren't an issue, getting into college is rather easy - even for homeschoolers.

 

For students in need of finances in order to attend, it's nowhere near easy.  Top schools are usually more likely to offer terrific need based aid, but they are extremely tough to get into - even moreso for those who have high need (as the stats in the OP link show).  Many of these kids don't have anyone at home to guide them.  Having someone show them what goes on is super helpful - heck - many don't even realize they could go to college, much less research it.

 

When a family is earning less than 20K per year (as in the article), even affording community college is tough.  Not everyone knows about things like Pell Grants, etc.

 

Guidance counselors at my school (where I grew up) identified students with potential by 7th grade and aimed us toward 4 year schools - challenging classes, SAT prep, etc.  They told us about financial opportunities (like ROTC - something I used) and made sure we were on track with applications when that time came, but there was a build up long before applying.  We were super well prepared.  Many of my classmates went on and did great things with their life - doctors, lawyers, engineers, writers, and more.  (I'll admit I'm the slacker...)

 

I used my background as a base for what my own kids would need and learned more about current costs, etc.  They are all doing quite well.

 

What do kids without any family experience use, esp if nothing comes from their school?  Are they doomed to a poverty cycle unless they can figure out other opportunities are out there, including things like financial aid?

[teachermom2834]

I was in high school in the early 80s and we had an SAT prep class that met twice per week for those of us who were college bound. It was a mandatory class.

 

My (public) school regularly sent top kids to top schools.

 

I've never heard anything about prepping being "unethical."

 

 

 

For students going to less selective colleges and where finances aren't an issue, getting into college is rather easy - even for homeschoolers.

 

For students in need of finances in order to attend, it's nowhere near easy. Top schools are usually more likely to offer terrific need based aid, but they are extremely tough to get into - even moreso for those who have high need (as the stats in the OP link show). Many of these kids don't have anyone at home to guide them. Having someone show them what goes on is super helpful - heck - many don't even realize they could go to college, much less research it.

 

When a family is earning less than 20K per year (as in the article), even affording community college is tough. Not everyone knows about things like Pell Grants, etc.

 

Guidance counselors at my school (where I grew up) identified students with potential by 7th grade and aimed us toward 4 year schools - challenging classes, SAT prep, etc. They told us about financial opportunities (like ROTC - something I used) and made sure we were on track with applications when that time came, but there was a build up long before applying. We were super well prepared. Many of my classmates went on and did great things with their life - doctors, lawyers, engineers, writers, and more. (I'll admit I'm the slacker...)

 

I used my background as a base for what my own kids would need and learned more about current costs, etc. They are all doing quite well.

 

What do kids without any family experience use, esp if nothing comes from their school? Are they doomed to a poverty cycle unless they can figure out other opportunities are out there, including things like financial aid?

Yes. Getting into most schools is not that difficult. Figuring out how to afford them (big part of this is which schools should be applied to for the individual). Lots of kids can apply to lots of schools, get admitted, and then have zero chance of paying for them. The same kids could have applied differently and been able to go. If I didn't direct my own kids (who are solidly middle income) to apply to the right schools they couldn't go either. They are great students with a few resources and they still needed direction to affordable schools.

[creekland]

Yes. Getting into most schools is not that difficult. Figuring out how to afford them (big part of this is which schools should be applied to for the individual). Lots of kids can apply to lots of schools, get admitted, and then have zero chance of paying for them. The same kids could have applied differently and been able to go. If I didn't direct my own kids (who are solidly middle income) to apply to the right schools they couldn't go either. They are great students with a few resources and they still needed direction to affordable schools.

 

Ditto with my kids.  Middle son had a difference in 33K per year between his least expensive and most expensive school.  It's a good thing he had affordable options as there's no way we could swing that extra 33K per year (on top of what we're already paying).

 

For those who can - no biggie - but those kids/families tend to already be aware of how to get into college or where to look to figure things out - or they can hire counselors.

[SKL]

I think the reality for most kids is somewhere in the middle.  They know there are these things called college, financial aid, applications, guidance counselors, internet.  They have people they could ask for guidance, and they know it.  What they might not realize is how many doors might be open to them if they knew to go knock.

 

I do think the bigger barrier is the feeling that they wouldn't belong at certain establishments in any case.  And there is some truth to that.

 

Personally I have no problem with the idea of most modest-income or first-generation college students going to public institutions close to home.  I actually think that's a great plan.  I will be happy if my kids do that, as all the graduates in my family have done (at least for undergrad).

 

I think it's a very rare modern-day high school graduate who can honestly say he qualified for college but had no idea how to apply.

[creekland]

I think the reality for most kids is somewhere in the middle.  They know there are these things called college, financial aid, applications, guidance counselors, internet.  They have people they could ask for guidance, and they know it.  What they might not realize is how many doors might be open to them if they knew to go knock.

 

I do think the bigger barrier is the feeling that they wouldn't belong at certain establishments in any case.  And there is some truth to that.

 

Personally I have no problem with the idea of most modest-income or first-generation college students going to public institutions close to home.  I actually think that's a great plan.  I will be happy if my kids do that, as all the graduates in my family have done (at least for undergrad).

 

I think it's a very rare modern-day high school graduate who can honestly say he qualified for college but had no idea how to apply.

 

But we're not really talking about "most kids."  The article focuses on those who are academically able, but drew the birth lottery for a poor or close to poor family (< 20K - 40K of family income).  As Alice pointed out in her post, the kids in this range with the highest scoring tests in elementary school end up with lower stats for college attendance than the kids with the lowest elementary test scores and high wealth.

 

Something is wrong with that.  A good part of it is lack of knowledge of what to do and how to get there.  Another part is some elite colleges not really trying to get them to come even after they remain academically good through high school.  It can be true that students feel they don't "fit in" economically around so many other wealthy students, but I felt that way in the private high school I attended for 10th grade too.  It wasn't a super bad experience even if it was eye-opening.  Since so many very low income students who make it in do so well, they apparently adjust too.

 

There's also nothing wrong with state schools or other private schools - these kids often succeed at those too, but not if they don't realize they are capable and/or find financing to get there.

 

Obviously, millions of "average" and wealthy kids go to college every single year.  That's not the point at all - other than proving those with means have no difficulty figuring things out.  The point is trying to break the cycle of poverty when you get kids who seem very able to do so.  Statistically aiming them toward college is a very good path.  Our country just needs to figure how to aim better.

[Arcadia]

The median family income for the California state universities (UCs and CSUs) aren't low. I was guessing a lower median. The range was from $40,300 for CSU LA to $152,900 for CalPoly SLO. CSU LA has the highest mobility rate among the state universities in California.

 

"The median family income of a student from Cal Poly is $152,900, and 67% come from the top 20 percent. About 2.2% of students at Cal Poly came from a poor family but became a rich adult."

"The median family income of a student from U.C. Berkeley is $119,900, and 54% come from the top 20 percent. About 4.9% of students at U.C. Berkeley came from a poor family but became a rich adult."

"The median family income of a student from U.C. Santa Cruz is $105,200, and 48% come from the top 20 percent. About 2.8% of students at U.C. Santa Cruz came from a poor family but became a rich adult."

"The median family income of a student from U.C.L.A. is $104,900, and 48% come from the top 20 percent. About 5.6% of students at U.C.L.A. came from a poor family but became a rich adult."

"The median family income of a student from Cal State, Monterey Bay is $98,400, and 45% come from the top 20 percent. About 3.4% of students at Cal State, Monterey Bay came from a poor family but became a rich adult."

"The median family income of a student from U.C. Davis is $95,400, and 45% come from the top 20 percent. About 4.4% of students at U.C. Davis came from a poor family but became a rich adult."

"The median family income of a student from San Jose State is $94,500, and 43% come from the top 20 percent. About 5.4% of students at San Jose State came from a poor family but became a rich adult."

"The median family income of a student from Cal State, East Bay is $71,500, and 28% come from the top 20 percent. About 4.3% of students at Cal State, East Bay came from a poor family but became a rich adult"

"The median family income of a student from California State University, Los Angeles is $40,300, and 12% come from the top 20 percent. About 9.9% of students at California State University, Los Angeles came from a poor family but became a rich adult."

[JumpyTheFrog]

As Alice pointed out in her post, the kids in this range with the highest scoring tests in elementary school end up with lower stats for college attendance than the kids with the lowest elementary test scores and high wealth.

 

Aside from tuition prices directly, how much of this, at least at the more selective levels, is the result of the "extra-curricular arms race"? Poor and lower middle class kids might not be able compete activity-wise with the upper middle class and rich, especially with colleges looking more favorably at things like "I started my own non-profit" than "I worked twenty hours a week for three years while in high school." Would making college acceptance be about academics (test scores, grades, and academic-related achievements/competitions) help level the playing field?

[Arcadia]

Would making college acceptance be about academics (test scores, grades, and academic-related achievements/competitions) help level the playing field?

There is an "afterschooling arms race" in my area. Also competitions like First Lego League, Regeneron Science Talent Search, Team America Rocketry Challenge for example have high "parents sponsorship" in my area.

 

So taking out extracurriculars won't level the playing field that much.

[frogger]

Yes. Getting into most schools is not that difficult. Figuring out how to afford them (big part of this is which schools should be applied to for the individual). Lots of kids can apply to lots of schools, get admitted, and then have zero chance of paying for them. The same kids could have applied differently and been able to go. If I didn't direct my own kids (who are solidly middle income) to apply to the right schools they couldn't go either. They are great students with a few resources and they still needed direction to affordable schools.

Yep. It was easy a on my own to get in but even though I chose what seemed like the cheapest option (in state university) I didn't finish. It wasn't a great fit and it is hard to pay while you work and know what you are doing with no support. Scholarships and perhaps a better school may have made the difference. Maybe not.

[SKL]

But we're not really talking about "most kids."  The article focuses on those who are academically able, but drew the birth lottery for a poor or close to poor family (< 20K - 40K of family income).  As Alice pointed out in her post, the kids in this range with the highest scoring tests in elementary school end up with lower stats for college attendance than the kids with the lowest elementary test scores and high wealth.

 

Something is wrong with that.  A good part of it is lack of knowledge of what to do and how to get there.

 

I have a hard time believing that working-class kids who are very bright don't have a clue where to turn if they have a desire to continue their education.

 

I mean, they are required by law to spend 5 days a week in a building full of college-educated people, interacting with said college-educated people on a frequent basis.  They can read and write and know how to use the internet and the phone.

 

Working-class kids, of all people, know that the way to get ahead is to work at it.  If they want it they will make the effort.  So the question, to me, is why don't they want it badly enough?  What messages are they hearing and what examples are they seeing that discourage them from going to college?

[bettyandbob]

I have a hard time believing that working-class kids who are very bright don't have a clue where to turn if they have a desire to continue their education.

 

I mean, they are required by law to spend 5 days a week in a building full of college-educated people, interacting with said college-educated people on a frequent basis. They can read and write and know how to use the internet and the phone.

 

Working-class kids, of all people, know that the way to get ahead is to work at it. If they want it they will make the effort. So the question, to me, is why don't they want it badly enough? What messages are they hearing and what examples are they seeing that discourage them from going to college?

The piece that is missing for some is actually imagining oneself as a college student. If ones closest family and friends are not and never were. Those people have a lot of influence. Yes, in high school I was surrounded by people who were college graduates, but the first people who talked about were my parents, long before high school. I don't recall ever thinking I'd do anything besides go to college. Attending and graduating college wasn't a pie in the sky dream in the "you can be anything you want" category. It was a solid feeling. I went to high school KNOWING I was supposed to prep fur this, not dreaming I wanted to do it. Before high school I'd heard from parents, older siblings, neighbors there were things I had to do in high school. I had to take certain classes, there were other classes that were a good idea. I had to take the PSAT and SAT and I supposed to pay attention to when those tests were offered. I knew this stuff before high school. It was part of the culture in my family and with my neighbors.

 

Someone without this stuff as part of his culture, has to reimagine himself as part of another culture. His own culture doesn't give him the building blocks to do that. Even as he reimagines, he still needs to find resources. The difference is he doesn't know there are resources to find. Or he knows he has to find stuff, but he doesn't know what that stuff is. So he realizes too late he should have taken certain classes, he should have taken the SAT by xx date, there was a huge pile of scholarships to apply for, but deadlines pass.

 

It's hard to look for stuff when you don't know what you are looking for or where.

 

My community center has a club for upper elementary kids. The target group is low income, but anyone can join. They visit colleges locally.this is to get that reimagining started.and get the kids started seeing the steps they needed to take in middle school to be prepared in high school. It's a way of helping find that community, cultural support before high school.

[SKL]

Does our popular entertainment need to do a better job of showing kids that college is accessible to kids whose parents didn't go?

 

I agree that the home culture is important.  Though both of my parents were high school dropouts, my mom always told me I should go to college.  We didn't visit colleges, we didn't try for anything elite, she didn't even let me consider living on campus, she didn't agree with my chosen major, my family had zero financial help to offer except for low-cost room & board ... but going college was a given.  And I remember promising my kid sister that I would support her educational goals, so she shouldn't let our working-class status limit her dreams.

 

But if home culture is really the deciding factor for smart kids, then the approach needs to be focused on that.  What can be done to encourage parents to view their kids as college material vs. discouraging them?  We had family friends whose kids were bright to genius IQ.  They told their kids outright that they were not willing to support them one iota in college.  They felt that if their kids decided they wanted it, they'd find their own way.  Well I don't think any of the 3 ended up with a college degree.  At least 2 never went to college.  They have been employed and all that, taken courses to further their career, but I'm not sure whether they reached their full potential or not.  I guess it's true that if they'd wanted college, they could have figured it out.  They figured out how to do everything else.

[creekland]

Aside from tuition prices directly, how much of this, at least at the more selective levels, is the result of the "extra-curricular arms race"? Poor and lower middle class kids might not be able compete activity-wise with the upper middle class and rich, especially with colleges looking more favorably at things like "I started my own non-profit" than "I worked twenty hours a week for three years while in high school." Would making college acceptance be about academics (test scores, grades, and academic-related achievements/competitions) help level the playing field?

 

At the elite schools this could be a significant difference.  At other schools it shouldn't be, but cost might be for those.

 

I have a hard time believing that working-class kids who are very bright don't have a clue where to turn if they have a desire to continue their education.

 

I mean, they are required by law to spend 5 days a week in a building full of college-educated people, interacting with said college-educated people on a frequent basis.  They can read and write and know how to use the internet and the phone.

 

Working-class kids, of all people, know that the way to get ahead is to work at it.  If they want it they will make the effort.  So the question, to me, is why don't they want it badly enough?  What messages are they hearing and what examples are they seeing that discourage them from going to college?

 

I agree with Diana.  I was raised knowing I was going to college.  I raised my boys the same way.  It would have been reimagining ourselves to NOT go to college as that was just the way our path was supposed to be.  Our education didn't end with 12th grade.  It ended with a college degree.

 

Then there's the money issue.  How do they pay for college?  How do they (or their families) eat while they are at college?  There are some kids at our school who work to help pay expenses like rent and food.  Their family would have to come up with that extra if the student left even though working at low pay jobs won't ever break the cycle.

 

I guess I see it the same being very similar to your "having a hard time seeing this happen."  It's not something you know or you've seen so it's tough for you to understand. It's not what you've experienced.  Tis the same for many of these kids.  They know what they see. College is for "other people," not them.   (If there's any way you can work in your local public school you'll have a chance to see a bit - that's where my eyes got opened to a whole different aspect of society - several different segments actually - both going to the private school for a year and working across all levels of kids at my local public school.) 

[SKL]

Well actually I attended a rural public school, and I've done lots of volunteer work at public low-income schools.  Most of the kids I grew up with never went to college.  I still don't believe that bright working-class kids don't know there are resources at hand if they want to go to college.  Not sure what is the reluctance in seeking those resources.  I assume they go through a different thought process that concludes that college is a big waste.

 

And to be honest, especially nowadays, there are a lot of wasteful things about college.  I think they need to (and soon will) restructure it so that it's more accessible in the sense of not being a full-time 4 year endeavor and not being so expensive.  A lot of the higher education budget is spent on things that working-class individuals do not value and should not have to pay for.  The other thing is that going to college doesn't guarantee a job that will pay for the cost of education.  We need to get the costs under control if we're going to insist that all smart kids ought to go to college.  (And I don't think just subsidizing wasteful spending with higher aid packages is the answer.)

 

And yes, I know community college is affordable, but the standards at our local one are lower than college-prep high school courses, so that still looks like a waste of money for a smart kid.

Edited June 27, 2017 by SKL

[DawnM]

Well actually I attended a rural public school, and I've done lots of volunteer work at public low-income schools.  Most of the kids I grew up with never went to college.  I still don't believe that bright working-class kids don't know there are resources at hand if they want to go to college.  Not sure what is the reluctance in seeking those resources.  I assume they go through a different thought process that concludes that college is a big waste.

 

And to be honest, especially nowadays, there are a lot of wasteful things about college.  I think they need to (and soon will) restructure it so that it's more accessible in the sense of not being a full-time 4 year endeavor and not being so expensive.  A lot of the higher education budget is spent on things that working-class individuals do not value and should not have to pay for.  The other thing is that going to college doesn't guarantee a job that will pay for the cost of education.  We need to get the costs under control if we're going to insist that all smart kids ought to go to college.  (And I don't think just subsidizing wasteful spending with higher aid packages is the answer.)

 

And yes, I know community college is affordable, but the standards at our local one are lower than college-prep high school courses, so that still looks like a waste of money for a smart kid.

 

 

I am curious.  What makes you think there will be a major restructuring and that costs will be lowered across the board?

 

Do you have any links to strong evidence of this happening?

[creekland]

I assume they go through a different thought process that concludes that college is a big waste.

 

If this is the case, then articles showing stats like this ought to help revise the thinking process.  ;)

 

Is it better to remain in a cycle of poverty or to go to college and stand a very good chance of jumping up a couple of quintiles - many even going from poorest to richest...

 

Time to bust the myth that college is a big waste (for high academic kids coming from lower income economic classes)!

[creekland]

I am curious.  What makes you think there will be a major restructuring and that costs will be lowered across the board?

 

Do you have any links to strong evidence of this happening?

 

I don't see it happening except among a handful of not-so-popular schools.  At middle son's and youngest son's schools (along with many others I know about) applications and matriculations are going up, not down.  They certainly have no need to restructure or lower cost.  Both of them are building/renovating dorms to accommodate more students.

[DawnM]

I don't see it happening except among a handful of not-so-popular schools.  At middle son's and youngest son's schools (along with many others I know about) applications and matriculations are going up, not down.  They certainly have no need to restructure or lower cost.  Both of them are building/renovating dorms to accommodate more students.

 

 

That is why I am asking.  I haven't seen it either.

[Guest]

Sorry I'm late to this party; this is a very timely thread for me, as I just finished reading Hillbilly Elegy, which is a memoire featuring exactly this question. The author, J.D. vance, talks about certain experiences attending Yale Law School, after having been born amongst the white working-class poor of Appalachia ("hillbillies").

 

I grew up poor myself and this part of the book really resonated with me. The problem goes far beyond whether high schools have good guidance counselors or not; it goes far beyond whether good colleges bother to bottom-fish or not. There were so, so many things I didn't know about how to improve one's economic outlook. So many things I didn't know about how one would go to college, or what to do if one even got there. Additionally, in my family culture, "girls" did not need college. My parents didn't walk around saying, "You cannot go to college," but they never uttered a peep that indicated that we could or should look into it. All I knew was that college was some very expensive thing that we could not afford (I had no idea there were things like Pell grants, which I surely would have qualified for.) Forgive how this next sentence is about to sound, but I didn't even realize that I was a pretty smart young lady with a very good mind for academics. I was in my late twenties, taking a class on photography, before I realized that learning new information was comparitively easy for me.

 

There were so very many things I did not know about money. My parents avoid discussing money. They gave me no guidance whatsoever, beyond having observed my mother's frugal ways. I didn't know much about appropriate dress for work or proper conduct. Once, I asked to leave work early to get my hair cut. Nobody taught me those unspoken class rules and I generally discovered them only by stumbling over them.

 

A large part of why socio-economic class remains consistent through generations is because of all these hidden factors. If your parents modeled to you How to Be a Hillbilly, you aren't learning How to Be a Prep School Kid. You pick up the social behaviors of clothing, hair, speech patterns, diet of the people you are around. It isn't easy to climb into a different level based partly on that. I remember how a lawyer I worked for would go out to lunch and would order some dish not on the menu. He would say, "You have to have their Hunan Shrimp" or whatever and I was looking at the menu, going, "Where?" I had no idea it was possible to order meals not on the menu and I also would never have attempted it because I would have to ask the price. To him, this was just the most normal behavior because he grew up upper class. those differences are difficult to bridge even if one has certain advantages like a high IQ or has the "right" appearance and all their teeth.

 

Teeth, BTW, are a major marker of class in the US. Skin is also. Wealthier people do not let their kids go forth into the world with messed-up teeth and acne-covered faces.

[Guest]

What messages are they hearing and what examples are they seeing that discourage them from going to college?

Disparate impact is putting them in high school classes where they struggle. Its hard work,and only one person in the entire cohort gets the golden ticket to the ivy. When they return during thanksgiving break, they are honest...its a major struggle at college too, only now they are C students. Lots of regret in not meeting parental hopes, as med school is now longer a possibility. The students still in high school who don't get the golden ticket don't want the college debt for little return. They enlist instead.

That's how it goes down here.

 

 

Also, the school district knows it isn't offering college prep. I have had several admin tell me that they expect my sons to fail in college, as an engineering or science degree is too hard. You bet your boots it is, for those who didn't afterschool math and AP science or acquire the work ethic to get in to tutoring. Thanksgiving finds horrible stories...some are mathematically eliminated from passing anything by that point,and don't return.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Sneezyone]

Disparate impact is putting them in high school classes where they struggle. Its hard work,and only one person in the entire cohort gets the golden ticket to the ivy. When they return during thanksgiving break, they are honest...its a major struggle at college too, only now they are C students. Lots of regret in not meeting parental hopes, as med school is now longer a possibility. The students still in high school who don't get the golden ticket don't want the college debt for little return. They enlist instead.

That's how it goes down here.

 

 

Also, the school district knows it isn't offering college prep. I have had several admin tell me that they expect my sons to fail in college, as an engineering or science degree is too hard. You bet your boots it is, for those who didn't afterschool math and AP science or acquire the work ethic to get in to tutoring. Thanksgiving finds horrible stories...some are mathematically eliminated from passing anything by that point,and don't return.

 

The students you describe are NOT the students we've been discussing tho. The students at issue here are mostly hidden high-achieving, high-stat students by national measures like SAT/ACT. They just so happen to also be poor. When these students get into top schools they adapt to the academics just fine. The article works to bust the myth that low-income only means the students you describe. It doesn't. Yet when people in academia and here describe low-income, they default to a vision of lower standards and kids who can't cut it. When that happens, these kids are the  ones who suffer most because so few are trying to find them and push/pull/help them up.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Sneezyone

[Guest]

I think folks put a bit too much stock in assuming a person's innate "knowledge." I wasn't really taken to libraries often as a child, so to assume I would realize there were books on these subjects, in libraries, is assuming I must have had some innate understanding of a very tangible thing -- even though I never really experienced that thing myself, until much later in life.

Yes, this. This is embarrasing to even mention, but when my kids were small and I first started going to our (fantasticly well-stocked, well-funded) public library, my DH could not actually believe all those books, videos and educational toys were 100% free to the public. He keptnasking, "How much did this cost?!" and I kept saying, "They are free, honey. It is a PUBLIC library." He did not grow up frequenting the public library. He does not think, "Oh, I'll just go to the library." Even now, when questions come up around the dinner table, I am the one who goes and gets the iPad because that is the way I think. I am not content to just sit in ignorance. But not everybody has that inate desire to know things.

 

Also, when I was in high school, I literally did not know what the SAT was, nor why people were talking about taking it or getting good scores. I didn't even know what AP classes were, except that smart kids were in them. I didn't know what difference it made to go to a private or public college; didn't understand the role of community college. (There was a joke about my local community college, which was AACC - "That stands for 'Any As$hole Can Come!") i'm sure I knew what it meant to go to tippety-top Ivy league - I knew about Harvard and Yale - but beyond that I had no idea about "Tiers" of colleges or what that meant. I was a shy wall flower in high school, my family was poor and not college-educated, my neighborhood was...yeah...and I didn't have connections at that time to anyone who really spread out the future for me. I assumed I would get married and have some babies, but I didn't even have the foresight to think about choosing a man that provided well enough to make that likely. It is a miracle for which I am eternally grateful that I did not marry my high school boyfiend. And even THAT mostly happened because I had seen my older sister's bad examples of marrying abusive guys, and my bf's mother started cluing me in that her own son was very likely to be a controlling person just like his father was. So I learned What Not To Do by seeing other family members suffer a bad outcome.

[creekland]

Sorry I'm late to this party; this is a very timely thread for me, as I just finished reading Hillbilly Elegy, which is a memoire featuring exactly this question. The author, J.D. vance, talks about certain experiences attending Yale Law School, after having been born amongst the white working-class poor of Appalachia ("hillbillies").

 

I grew up poor myself and this part of the book really resonated with me. The problem goes far beyond whether high schools have good guidance counselors or not; it goes far beyond whether good colleges bother to bottom-fish or not. There were so, so many things I didn't know about how to improve one's economic outlook. So many things I didn't know about how one would go to college, or what to do if one even got there. Additionally, in my family culture, "girls" did not need college. My parents didn't walk around saying, "You cannot go to college," but they never uttered a peep that indicated that we could or should look into it. All I knew was that college was some very expensive thing that we could not afford (I had no idea there were things like Pell grants, which I surely would have qualified for.) Forgive how this next sentence is about to sound, but I didn't even realize that I was a pretty smart young lady with a very good mind for academics. I was in my late twenties, taking a class on photography, before I realized that learning new information was comparitively easy for me.

 

There were so very many things I did not know about money. My parents avoid discussing money. They gave me no guidance whatsoever, beyond having observed my mother's frugal ways. I didn't know much about appropriate dress for work or proper conduct. Once, I asked to leave work early to get my hair cut. Nobody taught me those unspoken class rules and I generally discovered them only by stumbling over them.

 

A large part of why socio-economic class remains consistent through generations is because of all these hidden factors. If your parents modeled to you How to Be a Hillbilly, you aren't learning How to Be a Prep School Kid. You pick up the social behaviors of clothing, hair, speech patterns, diet of the people you are around. It isn't easy to climb into a different level based partly on that. I remember how a lawyer I worked for would go out to lunch and would order some dish not on the menu. He would say, "You have to have their Hunan Shrimp" or whatever and I was looking at the menu, going, "Where?" I had no idea it was possible to order meals not on the menu and I also would never have attempted it because I would have to ask the price. To him, this was just the most normal behavior because he grew up upper class. those differences are difficult to bridge even if one has certain advantages like a high IQ or has the "right" appearance and all their teeth.

 

Teeth, BTW, are a major marker of class in the US. Skin is also. Wealthier people do not let their kids go forth into the world with messed-up teeth and acne-covered faces.

 

Thanks for adding, Quill.  There is no doubt those who have BTDT have a much better insight and ability to put into words what many of us are trying to describe.  I will have to check out that book.  I've heard good things about it, but yours is the first time I've really paid attention TBH.

 

FWIW, if you're looking for a job at some point in your life, I wonder if there'd be any available in this area - helping kids see who they can be in time to make a difference in their lives.  I suspect you'd be great at it.  If I were to ever get unexpectedly wealthy (don't count on it as we don't play the lottery and tend to donate a bit of our "extra,") it's these types of things I'd want to see funded.

[DawnM]

Sorry I'm late to this party; this is a very timely thread for me, as I just finished reading Hillbilly Elegy, which is a memoire featuring exactly this question. The author, J.D. vance, talks about certain experiences attending Yale Law School, after having been born amongst the white working-class poor of Appalachia ("hillbillies").

 

I grew up poor myself and this part of the book really resonated with me. The problem goes far beyond whether high schools have good guidance counselors or not; it goes far beyond whether good colleges bother to bottom-fish or not. There were so, so many things I didn't know about how to improve one's economic outlook. So many things I didn't know about how one would go to college, or what to do if one even got there. Additionally, in my family culture, "girls" did not need college. My parents didn't walk around saying, "You cannot go to college," but they never uttered a peep that indicated that we could or should look into it. All I knew was that college was some very expensive thing that we could not afford (I had no idea there were things like Pell grants, which I surely would have qualified for.) Forgive how this next sentence is about to sound, but I didn't even realize that I was a pretty smart young lady with a very good mind for academics. I was in my late twenties, taking a class on photography, before I realized that learning new information was comparitively easy for me.

 

There were so very many things I did not know about money. My parents avoid discussing money. They gave me no guidance whatsoever, beyond having observed my mother's frugal ways. I didn't know much about appropriate dress for work or proper conduct. Once, I asked to leave work early to get my hair cut. Nobody taught me those unspoken class rules and I generally discovered them only by stumbling over them.

 

A large part of why socio-economic class remains consistent through generations is because of all these hidden factors. If your parents modeled to you How to Be a Hillbilly, you aren't learning How to Be a Prep School Kid. You pick up the social behaviors of clothing, hair, speech patterns, diet of the people you are around. It isn't easy to climb into a different level based partly on that. I remember how a lawyer I worked for would go out to lunch and would order some dish not on the menu. He would say, "You have to have their Hunan Shrimp" or whatever and I was looking at the menu, going, "Where?" I had no idea it was possible to order meals not on the menu and I also would never have attempted it because I would have to ask the price. To him, this was just the most normal behavior because he grew up upper class. those differences are difficult to bridge even if one has certain advantages like a high IQ or has the "right" appearance and all their teeth.

 

Teeth, BTW, are a major marker of class in the US. Skin is also. Wealthier people do not let their kids go forth into the world with messed-up teeth and acne-covered faces.

 

 

I am almost finished with the book, but put it down during finals and haven't picked it back up.

 

It is very much what my mother grew up in, she was raised in very rural South Carolina.  Her father died when she was about 15.  She was the oldest of 6 kids.  Her father was a moonshiner and that is how he made his living.  Her mother had no education beyond about 6th grade and no skills or ways to make money.

 

My mother left at 16 and went to live with her aunt in rural Georgia.  

 

It was a very long story, but a wealthier family in town/at her church, offered to pay for her college education.  It was definitely providential.  No one in her family had ever even finished high school, much less considered college.  My mother was the first.  She got an English degree.  She never really used it, but she did get a degree.

 

It is hard to move out of poverty, and I will say particularly in the rural areas, where even community college is too far to attend.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Quill-you stated pretty much my experience. I ended up at a state school pretty much by accident and discovered I wasn't dumb. My high schoolers attend a small rural public school. Of my dd's grad class of 60 maybe 20 plan some college or community college. It just isn't valued. Many of these kids plan to inherit or work on the family farm. Period. That's not bad but it is a mindset that sees college as a waste. My dd also has several friends whose parents refuse to help pay for education. No help with loans, nada. An 18 yo kid with no support and being pretty much asked to "leave the nest" sooner rather than later is thinking survival not education.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[regentrude]

I grew up poor myself and this part of the book really resonated with me. The problem goes far beyond whether high schools have good guidance counselors or not; it goes far beyond whether good colleges bother to bottom-fish or not. There were so, so many things I didn't know about how to improve one's economic outlook. So many things I didn't know about how one would go to college, or what to do if one even got there. ..

 

 

Quill, I want to thank you for your posts in this thread. It is eye opening to hear your perspective, because for a person who grew up with an educated background, it is very hard to imagine these obstacles.

Even for immigrants who never heard of the ACT or SAT (waving hands here) and have no clue about this country's educational system, it is not that hard to figure out if they have grown up with a culture of education in their own, however different, country and a mindset of possibility - so it is important to hear experiences like yours to better understand.

[Guest]

The students you describe are NOT the students we've been discussing tho. The students at issue here are mostly hidden high-achieving, high-stat students by national measures like SAT/ACT. They just so happen to also be poor. When these students get into top schools they adapt to the academics just fine. The article works to bust the myth that low-income only means the students you describe. It doesn't. Yet when people in academia and here describe low-income, they default to a vision of lower standards and kids who can't cut it. When that happens, these kids are the ones who suffer most because so few are trying to find them and push/pull/help them up.

Maybe in your state. In my state, low income not considering college means a rural school with an ideology that college prep is for the elite. Think child of farm hand who hails from central america, and school has persuaded parents to stay year round. Urban title 1 means lots of extra resources, including summer programs to prep for selective high school exams and waivers for dE and AP fees.

[creekland]

Quill-you stated pretty much my experience. I ended up at a state school pretty much by accident and discovered I wasn't dumb. My high schoolers attend a small rural public school. Of my dd's grad class of 60 maybe 20 plan some college or community college. It just isn't valued. Many of these kids plan to inherit or work on the family farm. Period. That's not bad but it is a mindset that sees college as a waste. My dd also has several friends whose parents refuse to help pay for education. No help with loans, nada. An 18 yo kid with no support and being pretty much asked to "leave the nest" sooner rather than later is thinking survival not education.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

I want to agree with you that this isn't bad (the underlined).  Many kids want to inherit the family farm or other work.  That's ok - even if they're academically gifted.  It's mainly those who are "stuck" in low level jobs, but could do so much better if only they knew how to get there who need to be redirected.

[Guest]

Uh yeah. I was the first female on one side of my family to graduate high school. I'm quite bright, and by the time I graduated high school, we were briefly "working class."

 

Still, absolutely zero idea what was going on with college. No idea how to proceed whatsoever. I was lucky in that I got to get caught up in the flow of dual-enrolled kids through cc to uni (and I didn't finish).... But it was a $$$$$$$$ flow that I probably could have had for free or at least far cheaper.

 

 

I don't care how many poor people anyone knows who manages "just fine," though I am admittedly skeptical. For every one that figures it out I garunteed you there's literally a town-full that does not.

[Guest]

An 18 yo kid with no support and being pretty much asked to "leave the nest" sooner rather than later is thinking survival not education.

 

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Yes and rightly so. But the peanut gallery still goes on (and on) about how they ought to be able to figure it out.

 

Related, too, I see a lot of lower middle class-middle class parents holding education hostage in a way that I don't see my wealthy friends and aquaintainces doing with their kids. Expecting certain behavior or whatever and if the kid doesn't do exactly like parents want, they revoke either housing or college help (I'm NOT talking about safety or legal issues). "If you don't do what I want you to do, I'm not going to help you materially."

 

The monied people I know take the opposite tack: "the more of a little miscreant you are, the more essential it is that you get through University."

 

I can tell you from experience that emotional manipulation at that time, with that leverage (a higher education) is... Extremely damaging on all fronts. 17-23 year olds still need help finding their way. Shocking.

Edited June 27, 2017 by OKBud

[creekland]

For every one that figures it out I garunteed you there's literally a town-full that does not.

 

Finances aside, this is why I opted to put this thread on the Chat Board for general discussion.  We have a wide range of parents on here and even more who read threads just lurking (now and in later searches).  I think it can be helpful for many to see that college CAN happen across socio-economic classes and that it is usually worth it for talented students.  Too many falsely believe it isn't.

 

It's also very helpful for parents to realize it can take some work finding affordable options (come to the High School and/or College Boards for tons of info leading to all types of options).  Some debt (on the student's end) can be a great investment.  High debt is rarely worth it - very rarely - esp for undergrad.  There should be less expensive options if you know where to look.

 

But college prep really starts young (middle school "ish")... it's not as easy to begin it junior or senior year of high school.  It's never too late to look into, but earlier makes it easier and gives one more time.

[Sneezyone]

Maybe in your state. In my state, low income not considering college means a rural school with an ideology that college prep is for the elite. Think child of farm hand who hails from central america, and school has persuaded parents to stay year round. Urban title 1 means lots of extra resources, including summer programs to prep for selective high school exams and waivers for dE and AP fees.

 

What you described in your prior post (kids struggling and failing their freshman college classes) are not the kids highlighted in the article. The students in the article ARE academically qualified and they're not floundering WRT college course work. They're not failing every class. Their falling away before they get to that point for knowledge (about higher ed), cultural and economic reasons, not talent and not determination or desire. The data is showing that they typically don't apply to colleges and/or under-match when they do.

 

The ed.gov abstract that I linked also distinguished these, 35K+ well-qualified, academically talented low-income students as INCOME-typical or ACHIEVEMENT-typical. One group applies (or more likely not) based on the norms of their income group. The other applies based on their achievement group peers. It further goes on to talk about what characteristics those groups have, namely that the achievement-group folks tend to have mentors and peers who assist them with the process and/or model it for them. The income-typical group does not.

 

It's worth a read.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

If this is the case, then articles showing stats like this ought to help revise the thinking process.   ;)

 

Is it better to remain in a cycle of poverty or to go to college and stand a very good chance of jumping up a couple of quintiles - many even going from poorest to richest...

 

Time to bust the myth that college is a big waste (for high academic kids coming from lower income economic classes)!

 

Well first of all, many working-class /modest income people do not consider themselves to be in a "cycle of poverty" nor do they aspire to jump to the richest quartile.  Again, that may just not be something they value.  Those enjoying a decent life near family in a low-COL area may prefer that to the high-COL, lonely situation the top quintile often finds itself in.

[DawnM]

Finances aside, this is why I opted to put this thread on the Chat Board for general discussion.  We have a wide range of parents on here and even more who read threads just lurking (now and in later searches).  I think it can be helpful for many to see that college CAN happen across socio-economic classes and that it is usually worth it for talented students.  Too many falsely believe it isn't.

 

It's also very helpful for parents to realize it can take some work finding affordable options (come to the High School and/or College Boards for tons of info leading to all types of options).  Some debt (on the student's end) can be a great investment.  High debt is rarely worth it - very rarely - esp for undergrad.  There should be less expensive options if you know where to look.

 

But college prep really starts young (middle school "ish")... it's not as easy to begin it junior or senior year of high school.  It's never too late to look into, but earlier makes it easier and gives one more time.

 

This was my job as a GEAR UP counselor.  GEAR UP is still in place.  It stands for Gaining Early Awareness and Readiness for Undergraduate Programs and is aimed at inner city schools, first gen college bound.  While my other counseling friends bragged about what colleges they got their students into, I told them my job was to let families know that college was even an option.

 

I worked for the one in Los Angeles.  I was a counselor.  

 

One HUGE thing that happened while I was there is that CA changed their in-state tuition rules and undocumented could get in-state tuition if they had attended a CA high school.  This helped tremendously since prior to that, even community college was completely out of the price range of most of our students.

 

I realize that is politically charged, but since we are discussing this on the main forum, I will say it anyway.  

 

http://www.edpartnerships.org/gear-up

 

In NC, undocumented students still pay out of state tuition, and that makes it out of range for many.

Edited June 27, 2017 by DawnM