contact with unbelievers

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Our church in Hawaii had several homeless men who attended. They ranged from a young man (maybe 19) to a bearded guy in his 50s (who my 5 yo thought was Santa). I was very impressed by the way that the church handled it. The Santa look alike generally sat in the front row, not far from the pastor. He was a great praiser. He'd raise his hands and sing loudly and do a little jig during praise time. The first few weeks he was there, I couldn't keep my eyes off of him. Our pastor would occasionally point him out when the music wrapped up and mention that he might make us uncomfortable what what was there to criticize when he was doing what the Bible told us all to do.

 

Several of these homeless guys were drug users. One especially told an elder that he tried to pace his use so he was most with it during church time. It was just incredible to watch the example set by the pastor and most of the elders of loving on these guys but also making sure that the youth of the church weren't put into problematic situations. Sometimes they would show up during Awana and one of the leaders who sit with them in the sanctuary while they watched the kids or they would walk them out to the patio for a cup of tea or coffee.

 

The pastor had a kid with mental health and dependency issues and I think that in part, leading his church to love on these homeless men helped him deal with the fact that his son was sometimes far away and not in a frame of mind to accept help. I know that seeing these guys was a constant gut check for me on how much I was loving the people around me and how much I was letting what was "acceptable" overrule what I knew I should be doing.

 

He told the story once of hanging out at a pastor's meeting with a pastor of a church of former bikers. When it was time to share praise, he excitedly shared that for the first time ever, all the elders of the church were off parole. Is that awesome or what.

[Joyful]

Choirfarm,

I only read your post, and haven't started to read the responses (just checked in btw steps in cooking). I've been thinking about simlilar things as you recently. And I just want to tell you that I'm so glad you started this thread!

[Rosie_0801]

So please, just put the terminology aside and how can I interact with the "real" world?

 

You know, if you are only interested in being friends with other Christians, do that. I'm only interested in being friend with people I have things in common with too. It's hard (and pointless) to be trying to build and maintain friendships with people you're not compatible with. I have happy conversations with many of the Christians on the board here, but I'm very sure we'd never be friends IRL. That's not bad, it's just the way life is. Your Christian based world is the real world. My non-Christian based world is the real world too. The world is pretty big and there's room for lots of realities. Ok, I'm sounding like a sci-fi movie, but you know what I mean!

You meet non-Christians the same way as you meet anyone else you don't know already. You go out. You join scouts, the SCA, a quilting circle, a book group, volunteer teaching English to refugees, etc, etc.

 

:)

Rosie

[Rosie_0801]

I never said to turn people away. I said "close friendships". I am really wishing that I had not posted at all.

 

I tend to assume when religious people make such statements they mean they prefer to hang out with people who can support them spiritually, rather than people who can't. Just like I prefer to hang out with people who share or at least aren't opposed to my life preferences. I have met Christians who'd run at the sight of anything that might challenge their faith, which has suggested a pretty flimsy faith to me, but you didn't strike me as being that way.

 

Rosie

[HappyGrace]

kind of turned a little. She was simply asking people how she can have more contact with unbelievers (used in the sense of "those who choose not to believe the Word of God is true"-they do not believe it, thus un- or non-belief in *it*.)

 

To the OP-we have been doing an evangelism class that is teaching us that wherever we are is an opportunity, even if it's just planting a little bitty seed. Bank tellers, grocery store clerks, etc. You can tie it in to Easter, like I've done lately when checking out in the store buying Easter cards. Tie it into small talk about the current news with the UPS person or whoever-about Natasha Richardson dying or the earthquake in Italy-"so what do you think happens when you die..." Pray and the Lord will deliver opportunities, no matter your situation. He loves to answer that prayer! There may even be people you are around that you think are Christian that the Lord may show you to talk to. And people will respond-you love them and care about what happens to them in this life and the next and they will sense that. And this is true whether you are sharing about God from the outflow of the love you have from Him either within a relationship/friendship or with a bank teller you just met.

 

And don't worry about the response-yes, as was noted here, many people do know "about" Christianity in America today, but they may not understand the message. All you are required to do is share it when the opportunity arises, and some of the examples above are ways to help it to arise very naturally. Of course, always praying for the Spirit's leading. If you happen to talk to someone very set in their ways, like the people here that are dead set against Christianity, even they can hopefully understand that you are letting them know an important message, and that if you didn't share it with them, it would really show that you care nothing about them.

 

There's a great youtube video I will link that has Penn (of Penn and Teller), who is an ADAMANT and well-known ATHEIST, telling how he even though he does not believe in God, he understands that Christian people MUST tell about Jesus, they MUST proselytize-and that how much someone who actually believes the gospel but doesn't tell people about it must really hate people. He uses the example of a truck-if I know a truck is coming at you and I don't try to get you out of its way-I am a cold, uncaring person. So hopefully, even atheists can understand that when we're telling about the gospel, it's from a place of complete love and caring about them too much to NOT say anything, not from condescension of any sort at all.

 

Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM

Edited April 10, 2009 by HappyGrace

[Guest janainaz]

Haven't read the replies, I'm sure there are good ones, as usual. My 2 cents on it is that our place as followers of Christ is in the world. It's not complicated. I meet people at the park, I meet people everywhere I go and every moment is an opportunity to show love. Somehow the modern-day chuch has twisted everything up and made everything about the institution and in so doing, has taken followers of Christ out of the world by busying them with serving ..... not people, but the building.

 

Jesus ate with sinners. He hung out with them. They liked him, obviously, and that must have been because Jesus was loving them! His issues were always with the Pharisees and the people under the law, his issues were not with the sick and those he came to redeem. The problem is that many Christians are seeing themselves as higher than they are. They have come to the heart-realization that they have a "system" to grade themselves by in regard to sin and they check the boxes off of everything they are doing right. If we are truly living under grace and not the law, we should be very comfortable being with non-believers because we know that of which we've been redeemed. Our mission should not be to share the gospel and walk off, it should be to get to KNOW other people, get to know their lives and who they really are because that is where true and real love begins. Mercy and compassion should flow from us and people should know us by our love. Certainly not the case today. Most people don't have time to really get to know other people because they are too busy living in fear and serving. The church aught to be sending people OUT of the building, encouraging family time, encouraging others to get to know their neighbors NOT for the hopes of new members and attendance, but for the promotion of relationship which is what followers of Christ should eventually become experts at. If the church was doing what it should be doing, it would not need big building funds and big budgets because you find the Christians in the world.

 

My dh and I left the institution and we find more opportunity for fellowship hanging out with our kids at the park and just living our lives. Maybe it's getting to know the neighbors that you've judged for being too worldly, or signing your kids up for a soccer league through the community instead of the church. It's just a matter of being open and getting back to the foundation of Christ and what He came here to do.

[KarenNC]

Ultimately, I think it boils down to folks (of whatever religion that wants to proselytize) realizing that one needs to first decide honestly whether one is primarily looking for/open to a friendship (building a real relationship with that individual regardless of whether or not the person converts) or only a "sales contact" (opportunity for proselytization).

 

To speak to the specific situation here, I believe you will find non-Christians much more open to someone honestly looking for the former than someone looking for the latter. It will likely be initially a bit of an uphill climb, since so many may be a bit gun-shy due to repeated contacts with folks whose goal is indeed the "sales contact" and that's it. The non-Christian may have opened themselves (and their children) more than once to what they thought was a growing friendship with someone (who may be equally outside the comfort zone of the non-Christian) only to be dropped like a hot potato when they don't "pony up" with a conversion in fairly short order. Trust may take some time.

 

As to where I meet and build friendships with Christians: our inclusive homeschool group which is open to and includes all faiths (and none), volunteer opportunities like working at a food pantry or other social justice service project, chatting with other moms while my kid is in a library program or PE program or YMCA program or museum program, recreational activities like the SCA or book groups, etc. I have built very close friendships with both conservative and liberal Christians through these avenues, many of which have lasted for years and have included a lot of theological and spiritual discussions, as well as occasional attendance at their churches or other religious events.

 

I have learned a lot from my friends and I hope they have learned something from me. It's helped me to break down some of my own preconceptions (even though I tried for a couple of decades to be Christian and harbor no animosity toward them), evaluate my own choices and whether my actions match my beliefs. The hallmark of these relationships is true respect for each other and a willingness for all of us to primarily let the way we live our lives speak for our faiths. This does more to build a respect for and interest in your religion than all the tracts or "Roman Road" talks in the world could ever do. There are times I have been humbled to see a friend who is living her faith even in a difficult situation.

[ClassicMom]

Christine,

 

I always wondered about this when my children were younger as well. You are a busy mom and I truly believe that your ministry is in your home. I consulted with older women in the church about it and they also told me that was where my ministry was. You are homeschooling your children and teaching them God's Word.

 

I also believe strongly in developing friendships wherever I go. As you grow and develop in the Word of God, you should be becoming more like Christ. Living as an a example for Christ and being a true friend, there are many opportunities to share your relationship and the gospel with those friends. You can do that as you raise your family. It is not going out and finding someone to target and convert. It's finding someone that is missing a relationship in their life and sharing with them how you developed yours.

 

I think perhaps you may be making it too hard. JMHO. I understand your conviction because I've been there. But as mothers, especially homeschooling mothers, we already have a ministry. But if you live your life, putting Christ first, everythings else (even homeschooling) will fall into place! :001_smile:

 

I hope that this helps some and not added to the confusion of the many posts here.

[Lovedtodeath]

I tend to assume when religious people make such statements they mean they prefer to hang out with people who can support them spiritually, rather than people who can't. Just like I prefer to hang out with people who share or at least aren't opposed to my life preferences. I have met Christians who'd run at the sight of anything that might challenge their faith, which has suggested a pretty flimsy faith to me, but you didn't strike me as being that way.

 

Rosie

Exactly, thank you Rosie! I obviously do not have a way with words.:grouphug:

Our mission should not be to share the gospel and walk off, it should be to get to KNOW other people, get to know their lives and who they really are because that is where true and real love begins. Mercy and compassion should flow from us and people should know us by our love. It's just a matter of being open and getting back to the foundation of Christ and what He came here to do.

I just had to say that I appreciate this post!:)

 

Christine,

 

I always wondered about this when my children were younger as well. You are a busy mom and I truly believe that your ministry is in your home. I consulted with older women in the church about it and they also told me that was where my ministry was. You are homeschooling your children and teaching them God's Word.

 

I also believe strongly in developing friendships wherever I go. As you grow and develop in the Word of God, you should be becoming more like Christ. Living as an a example for Christ and being a true friend, there are many opportunities to share your relationship and the gospel with those friends. You can do that as you raise your family. It is not going out and finding someone to target and convert. It's finding someone that is missing a relationship in their life and sharing with them how you developed yours.

 

I think perhaps you may be making it too hard. JMHO. I understand your conviction because I've been there. But as mothers, especially homeschooling mothers, we already have a ministry. But if you live your life, putting Christ first, everythings else (even homeschooling) will fall into place! :001_smile:

 

I hope that this helps some and not added to the confusion of the many posts here.

Wow. :grouphug:

[Erica in PA]

One important question I think to ask yourself is, "Am I purposely avoiding people of different beliefs because I 'want nothing to do with them?''" as that quote suggests. Are you running away from people who are not Christians? If not, I would not beat myself up or subject myself to false guilt over it. It may well be that in this period of your life, you may not have tons of contact with lots of people of varying beliefs. I don't think that's anything to feel guilty about. Now if you are purposely avoiding or shunning people because they believe something different, that is a problem, but it doesn't sound that way from what you described. You sound like a busy mother with a lot on her plate. You are attending to the needs of your family. As far as sharing your faith goes, the Lord will bring into your life those to whom He wants you to share... you don't have to create scenarios where that can happen, imo.

 

I do have friends with a variety of belief systems, but I haven't made friends with any of them because I had a strategy to form a close relationship with them. We got to know each other through various activities or workplaces or schools over the years due to common interests or just personalities that really clicked. I care about their salvation and pray for them, but it's not a strategic "win them over" kind of thing. We just enjoy each other's company.

[Haiku]

So hopefully, even atheists can understand that when we're telling about the gospel, it's from a place of complete love and caring about them too much to NOT say anything, not from condescension of any sort at all.

 

 

I have to say that it really doesn't come across this way when people try to convert me. It comes across as, "If you knew what I knew, you'd make the right choice, too." It doesn't come across as, "I care so much about you." It comes across as, "I have it right and you have it wrong." Personally, I find proselytizing to be extremely arrogant and insulting. Someone actually said to me once, "I just don't understand how you can be so intelligent and so wrong." My aunt told me, when I was six years old, that I needed to ask my parents to take me to church so we wouldn't all go to hell. A lifetime of such encounters (only with Christians, I have to add, as no one of any other faith has ever tried to convert me) has really soured me on proselytizing. To me, religion is an extremely personal choice and not something that someone else should interfere with unless invited to do so.

 

And I'll also add, lest I come across as a Christian-hater, that my three closest women friends are Christians, two of them from evangelical denominations. Rock on with that, if it's what works for them. We manage to co-exist quite well without me needing to push my religion on them or vice versa.

 

Tara

[HappyGrace]

I never look at the people I talk to about Jesus as a "target" to "convert"-whether I am in relationship with them or just met them-I'm sharing Someone I love with them, introducing them to my best Friend, and it would be phony and uncaring for me NOT to share my excitement! If they are uninterested, I am not offended, and I hope they are not either-I am opening myself up to them to share something very precious, and I can't imagine anything more caring than that. I am happy to pray for opportunities to share the greatest Love of all with people, and plant seeds of that Love wherever I can, when I am led to by the Spirit. I believe that's what Christ did-He did not wait til He was in a relationship with people first, but talked to anyone who would listen to His message of Love and mercy. (At the same time, He did not shove it down their throats or pester them until they were "converted" and I use Him as my model.)

[HappyGrace]

Tara, I'm so sorry that Christians have come across to you like that. And I understand what you mean-it is very common. We were cross-posting, but truly, when I am sharing my love of Christ with someone, I am not trying to tell them they are wrong-just sharing my excitement about Someone I love and hopefully planting seeds of that Love as I share.

[PollyOR]

I have been very impressed with the responses given by those who have different beliefs than Christians. Thank you.

 

Polly

[Rosie_0801]

One important thing to remember is not all non-Christians are "Christo-phobes." We can tell the difference between someone trying to convert us and a person who is living their faith. The former is annoying, the latter is to be expected. Just like we can tell the difference between a homeschooler who is out to slam anyone who sends their kids to school, and someone who is happily talking about their lives.

 

Rosie

Edited April 10, 2009 by Rosie_0801

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Just like we can tell the difference between a homeschooler who is out to slam anyone who sends their kids to school, and someone who is happily talking about their lives.

Wow Rosie, what a way with words!

[Jenny in Florida]

One important thing to remember is not all non-Christians are "Christo-phobes." We can tell the difference between someone trying to convert us and a person who is living their faith. The former is annoying, the latter is to be expected. Just like we can tell the difference between a homeschooler who is out to slam anyone who sends their kids to school, and someone who is happily talking about their lives.

 

Rosie

 

Exactly. That's why we count many Christians among our friends with whom we get along just fine. They're the ones who just do what they do and don't impose upon us. And I do the same. It's the ones who feel compelled to ask questions and challenge our own beliefs from whom we just walk away, and the ones who can't accept anything or anyone that doesn't fit with their worldview.

 

Example: My daughter did the summer program with a local Campfire group for a few years. The group has a generic Christian undertone, but is billed as inclusive and non-discriminatory. The first summer my daughter was there (about age 7, I think), she quickly got friendly with another little girl right about her age. All went well for a couple of meetings, until the little girl noticed that my daughter was not saying the blessing before the meal. I want to make it very clear that my daughter was behaving respectfully. She was bowing her head and being quiet and still, just not saying the prayer. The other little girl started asking her why she didn't say the prayer, challenging her about whether she even believed in God . . .My daughter gently and matter-of-factly told the other girl that her family didn't pray, hoping it would end with that.

 

It didn't. The other girl kept pushing and asking questions, and my daughter--who at that moment in her life was leaning pretty atheistic--finally admitted she didn't really believe in God.

 

That was pretty much the end of the friendship. The little girl came back next week, clearly prepped by her parents to challenge my daughter again. When my daughter didn't give the right answers, the little girl quit speaking to her.

 

We've had a lot of encounters like that since we moved to Florida.

 

On the other hand, both of my kids have sung for several years with a lovely Christian choir (the best choir in town) and have spent lots of time being social with those kids and their parents. The group starts most events with a prayer--during which my kids are respectful but don't participate--and they sing for several church services each year. The people associated with this group are some of the lovliest, kindest people we've ever met.

 

So, it's not Christianity in general to which I object, just the way that certain people don't seem to be able to practice it without infringing on me.

[JFSinIL]

This seems to say to me that you have little or weak faith. That just by being around others who believe differently, would somehow steal your beliefs?

 

I have had a number of friends who were deeply religious. So far I have yet to become a conservative Jew, a Baptist, a Catholic, a Mormon, a Muslim, or a Buddhist. I guess I just don't understand this mind set.

 

I agree with Jenny. How shallow is your faith if you fear being around folks not of your religious ilk would weaken or harm it? If that were true, how come all the missionaries do not end up believing like the masses they have gone to be among and help/convert???

 

Admit that it simply feels better to be around folks who believe as you do. Some folks have broader comfort zones than other folks. No problem.

[JFSinIL]

One important thing to remember is not all non-Christians are "Christo-phobes." We can tell the difference between someone trying to convert us and a person who is living their faith. The former is annoying, the latter is to be expected. Just like we can tell the difference between a homeschooler who is out to slam anyone who sends their kids to school, and someone who is happily talking about their lives.

 

Rosie

 

Yup. The former, in both cases, is seeking to justify their choice/decision/belief by in effect downgrading the opposition. The latter are fine examples and actually far more likely in have a positive influence on folks than the converters/slammers.

 

Hey - it was the example of fine, very Christian, homeschool teenage girls who became therapists with my small son with autism that got me interested in homeschooling in the first place!

[Haiku]

I have had at least a dozen Christians drop me as a friend (or rather, choose not to pursue a burgeoning friendship) when they found out I wasn't Christian. I was once told, "It's not that I think you are immoral, but ... if you don't know Christ, how can I be sure that you will act morally?" :confused: Seriously, it's like you have to "come out" or something with some people, and you never know how they are going to react.

 

Which makes no sense to me because, even though I hold my own religious beliefs very strongly, I couldn't care less what religion someone else is. Our life is populated by people of all sorts of religions or no religion at all, and I find that to be very valuable for us.

 

I guess I would just ask people to consider the fact that it's highly likely that you are not the first person to try to witness to whichever non-Christian you are trying to witness to, so even if, to you, it feels like the opportunity to share the love, to the other person it likely feels like being pestered and disrespected yet again. "Sharing" implies a mutual desire, but I (and most non-Christians I know) have no desire to be witnessed to.

 

Tara

[KarenNC]

We had an incident a few months ago in our inclusive homeschool group between my daughter and the son of a very conservative evangelical Christian member (we are polytheistic Neopagan Unitarian Universalists;)). Evidently the youth pastors in his church had been pushing the kids to bring friends to church and witness to their friends, so he apparently decided my daughter could stand some converting. Based on report the two ended up in a heated argument when the boy would not stop (they are both in the 8 yo range). These are kids who have known each other for 3-4 years.

 

I tell this story not for the incident itself, which has happened before, but because of the way it ended. My daughter never mentioned this to me. I knew nothing about it (it happened when they were out playing at the park not close to the adults) until the other mom *contacted me to apologize for her child not being respectful of my daughter's beliefs*. Her other kids had told her on the way home about the incident. I was relieved to hear her tell me that the kids reported that my daughter, while standing her ground, was basically polite. IIRC his siblings intervened to get him to back down.

 

We both agreed that while it would have been better not to have happened, it presented a good learning/reinforcement opportunity for both our children on treating others respectfully and sharing their faith in a way that was appropriate. I told her that I knew that my daughter would face this all her life, and I was glad that it happened in a community where both children are known as themselves, real multifaceted people, rather than as primarily or merely religious labels. We all remained friends and the kids still play together as much as they had before.

 

The reason this had a happy ending was that both the other mom and I were in a real relationship, with a history of mutual respect. We have talked often about our religious activities and beliefs among hundreds of other things. She has really helped me start to examine the ways in which I was subtly shutting myself off from portions of our community because of wanting to avoid the "conversion opportunity" mindset, not by anything she deliberately said but by her consistent behavior. It is helpful to be in these sorts of relationships so that when my daughter starts saying something negative about Christians I can point to her friends who are Christian and ask, "do you mean _____ or ______ are _______?" The answer is usually no.

[KarenNC]

I have had at least a dozen Christians drop me as a friend (or rather, choose not to pursue a burgeoning friendship) when they found out I wasn't Christian. I was once told, "It's not that I think you are immoral, but ... if you don't know Christ, how can I be sure that you will act morally?" :confused: Seriously, it's like you have to "come out" or something with some people, and you never know how they are going to react.

 

This is the reason that when I first contacted our homeschool group (which billed itself as inclusive) I included in my email request to join the yahoo group -" I am a moderate to liberal Democrat who is also a Neopagan Unitarian Universalist. I need to know upfront whether you are inclusive enough for us." They said "come on" :001_smile: and we have been very happily involved for over 4 years. At the time my daughter was 4 and I was tired of trying to find places for activities that did not require us to try to "pass" as something we weren't. Setting aside the statement of faith groups (I could not do that), lots of groups who billed themselves as "inclusive" meant "it's okay if non-Christians join as long as they never behave in ways or say things that make anyone think they might not be Christians".

 

When I have inquiries about joining our group or talk about it to someone who seems interested, I make sure that somewhere early on I mention that we are a very diverse group with folks of all different homeschooling styles, religious affiliations (Buddhist, conservative and liberal Christian, Neopagan, Jewish, etc), ethnicities, etc who have a common interest in homeschooling. That tends to mean we get a lot of folks who don't inquire further but at least they know upfront the kind of group they are entering.

 

I had one lady that moved her from out of state with whom I had talked a few times after we met at a bookstore. We lived in the same area and seemed to be getting along. We found out very quickly that she was homeschooling for Christian-specific reasons and that I was not, but that didn't seem a big issue. At the time I was a new homeschooler. She called me once and invited me to go with her to a local function that was part of a group I knew had a very specific statement of faith to join. I encouraged her to go but told her that if she wanted to get in good with them, she didn't want to bring me, as I was the very person they were homeschooling to avoid.;)

Edited April 10, 2009 by KarenNC

[Frontier Mom]

would be uncomfortable with Christ Himself if He walked into a room with them. Iy makes me think of the song by Casting Crowns that says something like "my Jesus would never be accepted in my church; the blood on His hands and feet might stain the carpet."

 

That's actually Todd Agnew but the message is painfully clear. I agree. People would be grabbing their wallets if Jesus sat beside them in the pew. And I'm a preacher's wife.:tongue_smilie:

 

My dd (8) cries when she listens to that song. I hope her heart will always break for those in need. As I get older it is easy to get comfortable.

 

To the original poster, you must be intentional to put yourself around those who think differently. That is why I come to these boards because I value the differing opinions here. We play baseball and that puts us around many different families. We also have family with varying beliefs.

 

I want my family to see that the world is varied. I don't want them to be judgmental in their views and I think putting them around others helps.

[Jenny in Atl]

I have had at least a dozen Christians drop me as a friend (or rather, choose not to pursue a burgeoning friendship) when they found out I wasn't Christian. I was once told, "It's not that I think you are immoral, but ... if you don't know Christ, how can I be sure that you will act morally?" :confused: Seriously, it's like you have to "come out" or something with some people, and you never know how they are going to react.

 

Which makes no sense to me because, even though I hold my own religious beliefs very strongly, I couldn't care less what religion someone else is. Our life is populated by people of all sorts of religions or no religion at all, and I find that to be very valuable for us.

 

Tara

 

I have always felt people are missing so much by judging and excluding others based on their beliefs. People have so many layers. The first tends to be a shell... it's what's underneath that counts. I feel sorry for those who push others away, or keep the friendships light because they are not of the same faith or creed. Sure it's nice and comfortable to hang with those who you "think" are the same as you. But you are missing out on so much of life and the riches it has to offer.

[Nakia]

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the respectful posts in this thread. It makes my heart happy!

[Jill- OK]

One important question I think to ask yourself is, "Am I purposely avoiding people of different beliefs because I 'want nothing to do with them?''" as that quote suggests. Are you running away from people who are not Christians? If not, I would not beat myself up or subject myself to false guilt over it. It may well be that in this period of your life, you may not have tons of contact with lots of people of varying beliefs. I don't think that's anything to feel guilty about. Now if you are purposely avoiding or shunning people because they believe something different, that is a problem, but it doesn't sound that way from what you described. You sound like a busy mother with a lot on her plate...

 

I do have friends with a variety of belief systems, but I haven't made friends with any of them because I had a strategy to form a close relationship with them. We got to know each other through various activities or workplaces or schools over the years due to common interests or just personalities that really clicked. I care about their salvation and pray for them, but it's not a strategic "win them over" kind of thing. We just enjoy each other's company.

 

This is *kind* of what I was trying to get at, but Erica did it much better. :001_smile:

[Peek a Boo]

don't kid yourself. everyone in America knows about christianity. they don't need to be befriended as projects or spiritual charity cases in order to spread your gospel.

 

sorry if this sounds rude, proselytising makes me a little bit ill.

 

With all due respect, it's been my experience among non-Christians that while they "know about" Christianity, they are clueless as what Christianity really IS. They tend to have some warped understanding of what it is that compels a Christian and tend to write off most proselytizing as being the victim of some spiritual "project" or charity case.

 

Kinda like a lot of Christians "know about" Islam but are convinced they are just a bunch of jihad freaks looking for a reason to kill anyone non-Islam. Having known some very sweet Muslim families, I know this to be [except for the wacko fringe that you find in every religion/ philosophy] untrue. ;)

 

 

I have always felt people are missing so much by judging and excluding others based on their beliefs. People have so many layers. The first tends to be a shell... it's what's underneath that counts. I feel sorry for those who push others away, or keep the friendships light because they are not of the same faith or creed. Sure it's nice and comfortable to hang with those who you "think" are the same as you. But you are missing out on so much of life and the riches it has to offer.

 

I tend to agree, but back to what i was saying above:

there are plenty of scriptural and real-life reasons for wanting to raise a family surrounded by lots of faith-filled support. That's a BIG part of really being able to understand different flavors of Christianity. Some of those "riches" are exactly what we are trying to avoid: your idea of "rich" may be another's idea of "wrong."

 

Kinda like the secular group in the north DFW area: "Fundamentalist Christians need not apply." okie doke .....

 

But we touched on this topic [avoiding in general specific people] in the gun thread already, and have covered Christian reasons for inclusion vs exclusion in the statement of faith threads..... ;)

[Laura Corin]

With all due respect, it's been my experience among non-Christians that while they "know about" Christianity, they are clueless as what Christianity really IS.

 

I went to Church of England schools but had barely encountered the idea that the bible was literally true or that the world was created in an actual seven days until I started frequenting homeschooling boards. I felt that I knew about Christianity, but I actually knew about only one form.

 

Laura

[KarenNC]

With all due respect, it's been my experience among non-Christians that while they "know about" Christianity, they are clueless as what Christianity really IS. They tend to have some warped understanding of what it is that compels a Christian and tend to write off most proselytizing as being the victim of some spiritual "project" or charity case.

 

I think we can safely say that this is true of many folks. They don't have an accurate picture of what another group believes. All too often it is based on a stereotype perpetuated by their own group ("I read a book by this pastor who says that Pagans _____, so it must be true", for instance). Hence the "if you are not Christian you might be immoral" comment referenced earlier.

The smaller the minority religion is (fewer opportunities to interact with a living breathing person who follows that religion because there just aren't that many of them around) or the more insular the person's own group is (fewer opportunities to interact because you choose to avoid those opportunities for whatever reason), the more distorted this is likely to be.

 

However, again we come back to motivation. "Proselytize" by definition is a specific attempt to recruit. This is far, far different from sharing the effects of your own faith on your life in the context of a reciprocal relationship founded on mutual respect. I welcome the latter from people of all religions and the former from none.

 

Frankly, it's also counterproductive for the proselytizer because they often simply have bad information on the religion of the person they are recruiting. If I were to come up to a Roman Catholic, say, and (for some unknown reason) try to recruit them to my religion by saying, "You should become ____ because we aren't required to worship statues or dance the hornpipe on the lawn on alternate Tuesdays while wearing blue ducks on our heads", they would rightly look at me as if I were insane. It wouldn't matter if I could quote 30 books from folks in my religion swearing up and down that Catholics do indeed dance with blue ducks on their heads. They are not going to listen to anything I have to say from that point on, or likely to anyone else who says they are affiliated with my religion. If I had had a relationship with a Roman Catholic at some point, I would likely not have made that mistake and the person I was recruiting might be more inclined to listen past the first sentence.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I operate by a couple of principles when it comes to this topic.

 

1. I cannot convert anyone. God the Holy Spirit is the one who converts people by changing their mind about what Jesus did for them on the cross. This frees me up from trying to guilt or manipulate someone into "believing." I also believe that God is a gentleman and will not over-ride someone's volition or free will.

 

2. I try to be the same to all men. I don't reserve a special way of behavior or speech for "Christian" functions. If I offend a Christian, I will apologize and ask their forgiveness. If I offend someone who is not a Christian, I will apologize and ask their forgiveness. People know that I am a Christian because it is a natural part of my life. I don't try to tack on artificial subject changes into religious subjects.

 

3. I pray for people. Family, friends, neighbors, leaders. . . I don't feel the need to go around telling people piously that I'm praying for them, though.

 

4. I am available for people. I don't know how people know that I am but they do. :bigear:

 

I met one lady in my neighborhood the first day we moved here. We were without a phone book and I had to borrow one to call the utility companies. Three days later, she called me and said "You're a Christian aren't you?" Her husband had just left her and she needed someone to talk to.

 

I've had co-workers come into my office (when I had an office a long time ago) and ask me strange questions: "Tell me everything you know about Christianity" (Ok - how much time do you have?:D)

 

Or the Palestinian who came up to me and asked me "Why do the Christians hate the Jews?" We had a very interesting conversation about the history of anti-semitism and what I believe the Bible actually says on the subject.

 

Right now we have a family ministry at a low income apartment complex for the elderly. Currently we have Protestants (of all stripes), Catholics, one lady who came in and told us that she was a Pagan but wanted to know more, an avowed Atheist . . . all that matters is that they are interested in hearing what we have to say. And they keep coming back. Of course we also get the drunk man who wandered in two weeks ago and had a five minute conversation with my husband while he preached. . . and the prostitute who came in after seeing a client - she was so drugged that she didn't know where she was.

 

5. I invite people but it is informational only - "I want you to know that this is available for you if you are interested". My relationships with them (which I also have) is separate from the invitation.

 

6. Opening myself up to people is both rewarding and at times painful. I have been attacked physically by mentally ill people. I have been attacked verbally by sane people (both Christian and non-Christian) - sometimes for no apparent reason.

[Peek a Boo]

I think we can safely say that this is true of many folks. They don't have an accurate picture of what another group believes.

-------------

However, again we come back to motivation. "Proselytize" by definition is a specific attempt to recruit. This is far, far different from sharing the effects of your own faith on your life in the context of a reciprocal relationship founded on mutual respect. I welcome the latter from people of all religions and the former from none.

 

i agree with your first statement :)

 

My only issue w/ the second is that we are not told scripturally to proselytize- at least, not by that definition. ;)

 

In fact, it is exactly NOT what was being asked or discussed in the OP: it was about BEING salt and light -serving- which yes, one can do in the Christian community, but it is also important to serve the ones that are NOT already Christian. Several posters even reiterated that. Yet we are still using "proselytize"...:confused: back to what many people THINK Christianity is about... and yes, i understand that some Christians DO believe that, just like some Muslims DO believe in a perpetual jihad.

 

I think Heather in NC said it best so i'll just ditto her from here on ;)

 

-----------------

and I missed the earlier part about weak/ little/shallow faith from a refusal to associate w/ non-believers.

 

Does that mean that a vegan or homeschooler has a weak philosophy about what THEY do?

 

Are they frightened or scared to try out the other venues, or have they made a solidly strong decision to do A instead of B?

 

Does a vegan think that eating just a little bit of meat product here and there undermine their philosophy? Does a pacifist think that using violent force just once means their ideals must be shallow if they aren't willing to try it?

 

I guess I'm trying to see how it becomes a weak thing to exclude someone else's ideals in one area, but not in another?

[LisaNY]

So by your definition, Jews are nonbelievers and yet your very Bible says they God's chosen people. It's inconsistencies like that which make it hard for me, and perhaps others, to believe the Bible is truth. Just sharing my nonbelieving thoughts. :)

 

A Jewish "nonbeliever" is one who does not believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah. It does not in any way, shape, or form negate their "chosenness", or G-d's eternal love for them.

[Haiku]

I guess I'm trying to see how it becomes a weak thing to exclude someone else's ideals in one area, but not in another?

 

I don't think the point is about trying out other people's beliefs, it's about refusing to associate with people because they don't share your beliefs. I can hang with non-vegans and still eat vegan. I can hang with non-homeschoolers and still homeschool. A Christian can hang with non-Christians and still be Christian. Being around non-Christians doesn't threaten one's Christianity ... or at least it shouldn't, if your beliefs are strong. As a member of a minority religion, I'd be in pretty serious trouble if associating with those who believe differently from me meant that my faith was undermined.

 

I have made a solidly strong decision to be vegan. That doesn't mean that I have to shun non-vegans. What good does that do anyone?

 

Tara

[KarenNC]

i agree with your first statement :)

 

My only issue w/ the second is that we are not told scripturally to proselytize- at least, not by that definition. ;)

 

Perhaps you know of another definition? Merriam Webster only has the following:

intransitive verb 1 : to induce someone to convert to one's faith 2 : to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause

transitive verb : to recruit or convert especially to a new faith, institution, or cause

 

As to the scriptural command, I was certainly taught about the Great Commission in the decades in which I was involved with the Christian Church.

 

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20)

 

I am not aware of another meaning to "baptize" in a Christian context that does not include making someone a member of the Christian Church, especially when done in the name of the Trinity.

 

In fact, it is exactly NOT what was being asked or discussed in the OP: it was about BEING salt and light -serving- which yes, one can do in the Christian community, but it is also important to serve the ones that are NOT already Christian. Several posters even reiterated that. Yet we are still using "proselytize"...:confused: back to what many people THINK Christianity is about... and yes, i understand that some Christians DO believe that, just like some Muslims DO believe in a perpetual jihad.

 

Most posters are pointing out that there is a difference and that difference makes all the difference in the world. The use of the word "proselytize" is very specific---to highlight that behavior that is offensive and why. As I have been at pains to make clear, you can be assured that when I say "proselytize" that is exactly what I mean----I do not mean "serving", or "interacting" or "talking" or anything other than a specific targeting by members of one religion to recruit others into their religion.

 

The vegan eating a little meat or pacificist using a little violence analogies are not applicable. No one has suggested that a Christian must participate in the religious activities of others or they are "weak". I can also assure you that I know many Christians and am fully capable of having a close friendship with them without participating in the Eucharist. None of those Christians has felt the need to participate in my religious rituals either.

 

If you want a better analogy along those lines, then you need to talk about a vegan who is afraid to go into any store where meat is sold because if they even see the package, they will be unable to prevent themselves from going out and ordering and consuming an entire meat lover's supreme pizza regardless of their convictions. That is not a vegan who is confident in his/her decision not to consume animal products. Or perhaps a vegan who believes that associating with others who may or may not eat meat (since she will not know unless they specifically tell her) even in a non-food-related situation would cause her to go eat that meat lover's supreme against her will.

 

Personally, I am in full agreement that everyone has the right of free association. However, it is important that folks have an understanding of the way in which they will likely be received depending on their motivation and approach.

Edited April 11, 2009 by KarenNC

[Lovedtodeath]

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20)

 

When I read this, I highlight the other part of the scripture. "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20) It actually makes a big difference in the meaning if you really think about it.

[KarenNC]

When I read this, I highlight the other part of the scripture. "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20) It actually makes a big difference in the meaning if you really think about it.

 

I'm afraid you're going to have to be a little more explicit. I am not sure why one would feel the need to follow the commandments of Jesus if one were not a follower of Jesus.

[CAMom]

It takes me so long to percolate on these types of questions.:) I know I'm so late on this.

 

For me, it's truly about relationships not just making aquaintances. I'm finally really comfortable enough in my own skin to make friends with those outside of my faith. I've been a Christian for 20 years but my issue has been more with my personal maturity than with the strength of my faith. But, I'll be 40 in several weeks and have decided that life is too short.:)

 

My own personal opinion is that you have to earn the right to share your faith with others. You have to build relationships and establish trust and that comes from spending time with others. The great commission does not talk about making converts. It discusses making disciples. How did Christ himself make disciples? By loving them, spending time with them, being a part of their lives, ministering to them....being their friend.

 

Like I said, I've been a Christian for 20 years. It's only very recently that some of my own family has become comfortable with that. They always just assumed I'd be judgmental of them because they thought that's how Christians were. It's taken years and years of just loving them for them to finally know that I am genuine and that I love them but am not out to covert them. My sister called me a couple of months ago asking me questions about Christianity. She's a struggling meth addict who has lived a very hard life. She finally trusts me enough to know that I will be honest, that I love her and that my only motivation is to see her happy and healthy.

 

Last summer, a friend of my husband asked if we would get together with him and his fiance. They had some questions about the Bible and about Christianity. The first time we met, my dh asked each of us what our hopes were for our time together; what did each of us want to get out of it. This couple was shocked when I answered that all I wanted out of our time together was to get to know them and develop a new friendship. They thought for sure that I would want to convert them.;) I shared with them that, yes, my faith is very important because it's who I am but I wasn't out to convert anyone.

 

So, like some of the others, I would just encourage the OP to consider developing relationships with those who you come across in real life. Take interest in them. Be Christ to them with no strings attached. Then, let God do the work.

[Lovedtodeath]

So by your definition, Jews are nonbelievers and yet your very Bible says they God's chosen people. It's inconsistencies like that which make it hard for me, and perhaps others, to believe the Bible is truth. Just sharing my nonbelieving thoughts.

 

Beth, this is an example of how not all Christians believe the same thing. Nearly every time there is a statement like this using Christian beliefs to disprove the Bible, it is not what I believe the Bible actually says. The Jews, as a group, rejected the son of God. Therefore we believe that as a group, they are no longer his chosen people.

 

(NIV) Matt. 21:42 Jesus said to them, Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvellous in our eyes'? 43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

 

Rev 7:4 Speaks of those "sealed out of every tribe of Israel". The tribes that follow are not the literal tribes of Israel; they include the tribes of Levi and Joseph, and delete the tribes Dan and Ephraim. (Compare Numbers 1:4-16, and Revelation 14:1-3.

 

(NIV) Romans 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

 

(NIV) Galations 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.

 

Gal 3:27-29; Romans 2:28,29

[Lovedtodeath]

I'm afraid you're going to have to be a little more explicit. I am not sure why one would feel the need to follow the commandments of Jesus if one were not a follower of Jesus.

 

Sorry Karen, I meant that there is a contrast between religions that babtize people as soon as possible in order to get "converts", and religions that take pains to make sure someone understands what they are getting into before-hand. Ronette said it well, by contrasting the term convert with the term disciple.

[Spy Car]

A Jewish "nonbeliever" is one who does not believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah. It does not in any way, shape, or form negate their "chosenness", or G-d's eternal love for them.

 

This is an outrageous formulation. A Jewish "non-Christian" is one who does not believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah. But they are not a Jewish "non-believer".

 

Bill

[Rosie_0801]

I'm afraid you're going to have to be a little more explicit. I am not sure why one would feel the need to follow the commandments of Jesus if one were not a follower of Jesus.

 

Well, good advice is good advice whether it comes from a religious prophet, the horoscopes section of the newspaper or your mum.

 

 

Very nice post, CAMom.

 

:)

Rosie

[Nestof3]

This is an outrageous formulation. A Jewish "non-Christian" is one who does not believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah. But they are not a Jewish "non-believer".

 

Bill

 

Bill, the word "unbeliever" (the negated form of one with faith/belief) is used many times by Jesus himself. I quoted several of these in an earlier post. It is because of these verses that some Christians use the term "non" or "unbeliever." It is implied that the lack of faith/belief is in Jesus as the Messiah.

[Spy Car]

Bill, the word "unbeliever" (the negated form of one with faith/belief) is used many times by Jesus himself. I quoted several of these in an earlier post. It is because of these verses that some Christians use the term "non" or "unbeliever." It is implied that the lack of faith/belief is in Jesus as the Messiah.

 

I'm sorry Dawn but it implies (more than implies) that either Jews don't believe in God, or they don't believe in the right form of God because they follow Judaism, and aren't Christians, and don't believe Jesus was the Messiah (a figure Jews have never believed was a divine personage, rather a mortal king). And it crosses the line.

 

Bill

[Nestof3]

My own personal opinion is that you have to earn the right to share your faith with others. You have to build relationships and establish trust and that comes from spending time with others. The great commission does not talk about making converts. It discusses making disciples. How did Christ himself make disciples? By loving them, spending time with them, being a part of their lives, ministering to them....being their friend.

 

 

I agree that this is how it usually works with me as well, but I just wanted to point out that Jesus was also very direct at times, cutting right to the issue -- such as, "You have had five husbands, and the one you are with now is not your husband." I just think we have to be careful to remember that he was in such perfect fellowship with the Father that he could do nothing unless the Father was doing it, and the approach varied according to the need of the person.

[Nestof3]

I'm sorry Dawn but it implies (more than implies) that either Jews don't believe in God, or they don't believe in the right form of God because they follow Judaism, and aren't Christians, and don't believe Jesus was the Messiah (a figure Jews have never believed was a divine personage, rather a mortal king). And it crosses the line.

 

Bill

 

No, Bill, in the biblical sense, it does not. See Acts 14: 1-2

 

And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

 

But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.

[Spy Car]

No, Bill, in the biblical sense, it does not. See Acts 14: 1-2

 

And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

 

But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.

 

I think one treads on thin ice when judging one religious tradition by the sacred texts of another faith tradition, and one uses those texts to call other people "unbelievers". Dangerous game.

 

Bill

[Nestof3]

I think one treads on thin ice when judging one religious tradition by the sacred texts of another faith tradition, and one uses those texts to call other people "unbelievers". Dangerous game.

 

Bill

 

I cannot help that I view these things through the eyes of Christianity -- for that is what I believe.

 

I am not arguing the chosen-ness of the Jews, but 1 Peter 2 really speaks about this unbelief of the Jews. In fact, the Bible is clear that the priesthood was opened up to the Gentiles BECAUSE of the unbelief of the Jews.

 

To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,

 

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

 

Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

 

Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

 

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient (apeitheō: same word as in "unbelieving" Jews): whereunto also they were appointed.

 

But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[Lovedtodeath]

I think one treads on thin ice when judging one religious tradition by the sacred texts of another faith tradition, and one uses those texts to call other people "unbelievers". Dangerous game.

 

I think it is a dangerous game to not allow people to use the same terms as can be found in their sacred texts, especially when they were using them in addressing others of the same faith.

 

This clearly was a thread where a Christian was talking to other Christians.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Spy Car]

I cannot help that I view these things through the eyes of Christianity -- for that is what I believe.

 

I am not arguing the chosen-ness of the Jews, but 1 Peter 2 really speaks about this unbelief of the Jews. In fact, the Bible is clear that the priesthood was opened up to the Gentiles BECAUSE of the unbelief of the Jews.

 

It's fine for you to believe what you believe. But you might not take kindly to being called an "infidel" for your beliefs, correct?

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

I think it is a dangerous game to not allow people to use the same terms as can be found in their sacred texts, especially when they were using them in addressing others of the same faith.

 

Jews and Christians are the same faith???

 

Bill