Secular religious education

[ajjkt]

I know this may be a touchy subject, so I'm not sure if I should raise it but I would like some input. I remember my grandmother telling me that her parents sat her and her sisters down and said "We don't believe in God, but we want you to make your own educated decision about your beliefs. You will be going to spend six months at Sunday school of one religion, then six months at a different religion etc etc...".

 

I have been thinking after a post on the LCC yahoo group that I would like my children to be educated about various religion's ideas, philosophies, rituals etc in the same manner that my grandmother and her sisters were. However, I have absolutely no knowedge or idea on how I would approach this. I would not want to present the ideas or paradigms of just one religion, instead I would prefer to give an overview of a variety of religions.

 

Does anyone have any ideas on how I could do this?

[Trivium Academy]

You could work through one of the World Religion encyclopedias at this stage as an introduction; Kingfisher, Usborne, DK have titles. There are also books like I am a Muslim by Franklin Watts (there is a series)

http://www.franklinwatts.co.uk/RELIGION_Books_MY-BELIEF_Series_I-AM-A-MUSLIM_26388_56141_69985_PB.htm

 

but there are other authors who have written similar books too that may be available through your library. I would search your library's catalog to see what's available for each religion from one of the encyclopedias.

 

I found this book list which looks interesting

http://ezinearticles.com/?Books-For-Introducing-Young-Children-to-World-Religions&id=1800069

 

I hope this helps. ;)

Edited December 29, 2008 by Trivium Academy

[kalanamak]

I know this may be a touchy subject, so I'm not sure if I should raise it but I would like some input. I remember my grandmother telling me that her parents sat her and her sisters down and said "We don't believe in God, but we want you to make your own educated decision about your beliefs. You will be going to spend six months at Sunday school of one religion, then six months at a different religion etc etc...".

 

 

 

I think I would have loathed that as a child. Always being an outsider and unfamiliar. Hummm... plus I was raised to think that polite people didn't discuss religion or politics unless as it relates to government (a political debate). My folks thought it a very private issue.

 

I looked very, very carefully into books on religion for children. We have a nature tendency to lead children down our own path, and I wanted a book that gave religion the same place in a culture and in history as language or food or any other the myriad things that shape a culture. I finally setted on

Religions of the World by the editors of Larousse

 

HTH

[Haiku]

"We don't believe in God, but we want you to make your own educated decision about your beliefs. You will be going to spend six months at Sunday school of one religion, then six months at a different religion etc etc...".

 

 

First I would ask, how well did this work for them?

 

Second I would ask, does one actually make "educated" decisions about religion? I have religious beliefs of my own, but they are not based on an "educated" evaluation of them. They are my beliefs because they resonate spiritually with me, not because I made a thorough survey of all the religions and chose the most ... I don't know, logical? reasonable?

 

I'm not saying not to expose your kids to lots of religions. We do, both by choice and necessity (our kids attend religious education in our faith but also have friends and family of varying religions, and we welcome any opportunity for the kids to learn about various religions). But I don't see it as a "Here, kids, is your buffet, try it all and then decide what you like best." Having been raised with no religion and then acquiring a religion, I don't really think it works that way.

 

My personal favorite books for kids are A Faith Like Mine, published by Dorling Kindersley, and Usborne Encyclopedia of World Religions.

 

Tara

[Mandamom]

I did a religious/world history study over a two year period of time with my then middle school homeschooler because I knew that was probably the only way I would be able to cover the material I wanted to cover.

 

I started history from the beginning (dinosaurs, etc.) and worked our way forward through time. As we moved forward in time, I would find books on the geography, literature, religion, art and music of the time/period that we were studying and he would have reading and writing assignments (we were also using IEW) about each time. Because religion really impacts culture our focus almost became the religion of the time.

 

We both learned a lot. Even though I was mostly covering western history we also touched on several different countries in Africa and touched on their history/literature/religion and covered China, Japan, India and also Australia. It was a lot of information and several times he would be covering two different areas/times at the same time, as in, reading a book on stories in Africa while we would be discussing Buddhism.

 

All of the resources I found were from our library in addition to the internet. It was only a little time consuming to put together :) but well worth it. I think I also found a world history textbook at a local library booksale that cost me about $2 which was also very helpful.

[dragons in the flower bed]

I would not want to present the ideas or paradigms of just one religion, instead I would prefer to give an overview of a variety of religions.

 

 

The Unitarian Universalist Association's bookstore has a curriculum just for this, geared at middle school kids, called Neighboring Faiths. I'm not sure how homeschool friendly it would be, but I am certain it would be inclusive and not judgemental. The description says, "32 flexible sessions explore history and development of different faith traditions. Participants plan their own program by choosing which religious groups to learn about, visit and relate to their own growing faith. Includes historical resources and tips for hosting guests, visiting other faiths, creating worship experiences and more."

 

We like the Maestro's Story of Religion, but I have heard good things about Mary Pope Osborne's introductions to the religions of the world, also. Even Usborne has a book out on the subject. Perhaps you should see what's available in your local library.

[Tatt2mama]

I do know that there is a curriculum used by the Unitarian Universalists that deals with world religions-but I was unable to find too much evidence of it. Maybe looking around on http://www.uua.org ? Sorry I'm not more help.

 

We are also secular homeschoolers, but I would like my children to know something about the different world religions-so I'm curious to follow this thread and see what else is out there....

[Alessandra]

Not a touchy subject at all here -- a great idea! We taught world religions as part of Core Knowledge curriculum (in 1st and 2nd grades). If you go to their website and click on lesson plans, you can find a lot of great book ideas, as well as sensible, multicultural ways to approach the topic. The lesson plans are made for schools, so you'll probably want to pick and choose topics.

 

http://www.coreknowledge.org/CK/resrcs/lessons/index.htm

http://www.ckcolorado.org/units.asp

 

My kids, at age 7, found the "This Is My Faith" series very appealing. Each volume follows one child, showing how his/her faith affects daily life. Lots of photos and very appealing. (What I Believe by Brown & Langley has a similar approach.) We also got (mostly used and for about $1 each) books by Anita Ganeri -- there is a great series on What's Sacred to Me -- with volumes on Religious Books, Articles, Food, etc; another series on religious legends. We got lots of library books with stories of kids celebrating Ramadan, various holidays, etc. Demi has some nice pix books on Muhammad, Buddha, Dalai Lama, etc.

 

We watched videos -- A History of God (based on the Karen Armstrong book) was actually enjoyed by my dc at age 7. A nice book for a parent is How Do You Spell God? (Gellman & Hartman). Schlessinger Media has some nice, short videos on world religions that may be available via library/interlibrary loans. When my dc are more reliably quiet (!!!), I will prevail upon friends and take them to various religious services. We use a book, Festivals Together, to help us with multi-cultural celebrations at home.

 

I hope you keep posting -- I think it is *so* important to raise children who understand other faiths and cultures and people.

 

ETA I got the Maestro's book mentioned above from the library and -- although I usually love their books -- did not find it appealing. Too much a history of religion, a bit to philosophical, at least for my dc.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Alessandra

[sagira]

I hope you keep posting -- I think it is *so* important to raise children who understand other faiths and cultures and people.

 

Ditto. No ideas yet, but following with interest.

[Nicole M]

Great question and great thread.

 

I had a religion professor once who said that letting your children decide about what religion they would embrace is like letting them decide whether or not they want to breathe. Maybe a little harsh, but I think his point was that religion is more than just "personal" -- it's our culture, our identity, that which sustains us. I think you can expose children to lots of ideas (and that it's responsible to do so). But if you are trying to help your children find a place where they feel at home with the language, texture and rhythms of community worship, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

 

So if *I* were going to do this study with my children, I would wait to see what their responses were to various religious sects and groups. If there was one group that particularly fascinated my child, after reading about it, then we'd check out their worship for a while.

 

Thanks to everyone who posted links. Very helpful!

[mcconnellboys]

Yes, I like the World Religion books that are available now. We also have videos of various religions and I'm sure many libraries carry such things, as well. These really are not the same as attending services, however. Your children might not feel comfortable being signed up for first one Sunday school and then another, but perhaps your family could wrangle invitations to services from friends, etc., in order to get an idea of how various services are conducted? I'd read first and then visit....

[coralloyd]

I guess I don't really understand this. Do you have any belief system of your own? If you do, do you really BELIEVE it? I truely to the core of my heart and mind believe what I believe, because of educated study and how it spiritually affects my life. I couldn't imagine telling my kids to choose something else, when I believe it to be false. I believe the world is round, should I teach my children that it is ok to believe it is flat, if they so choose? Sorry just a little confused by this way of thinking, I'm not trying to be disrespectful in anyway.

[Jenny in Florida]

When my son was younger, he used a series from Milliken called Inside World Religions. Here's a link to the one on Christianity: http://www.millikenpub.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=1585&cat=&page=1

 

When we used them, there were books on Islam and Buddhism, too. But it looks like they may no longer be available.

 

He also read through a book called Religions Explained, by Anita Ganeri. Here's the link to the description at Barnes & Noble: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Religions-Explained/Anita-Ganeri/e/9780805048742/?itm=1

 

Unfortunately, it looks like that one may be out of print, too.

 

You might also take a look for this series at your library: http://www.libraryvideo.com/sm/uwrdvd.asp?mscssid=SJ5VLS2D6MNP8L3QBED4PPPL58055TB0

 

For older kids, I highly recommend Huston Smith's books on world religions, especially the illustrated one. And Schlessinger has a DVD series intended for high schoolers called Religions of the World that is good.

[Jenny in Florida]

I guess I don't really understand this. Do you have any belief system of your own? If you do, do you really BELIEVE it? I truely to the core of my heart and mind believe what I believe, because of educated study and how it spiritually affects my life. I couldn't imagine telling my kids to choose something else, when I believe it to be false. I believe the world is round, should I teach my children that it is ok to believe it is flat, if they so choose? Sorry just a little confused by this way of thinking, I'm not trying to be disrespectful in anyway.

 

Well, there are many people, including myself, who do not believe that there is one, all-powerful, all-true, this-way-or-you're-wrong belief system. The scholar Huston Smith has this wonderful saying that all of the world's faith traditions are like arrows shooting at the same star: We may all begin from different places and take different paths, but we're all pretty much aiming at the same truth.

 

I know that is a very upsetting concept for many, more conservative or traditionally religious people, but it is what I believe. In fact, one of the principles of my own denomination (Unitarian Universalist) is that there is wisdom to be found in all of the faith traditions of the world.

 

UUs also put a premium on the "free and responsible search for truth and meaning." So, for many of us, learning about religious belief in a broader way is part of practicing and refining our own faith. In fact, there's a wonderful quote that our minister used recently to preface a service that I can't quite remember. But it had something to do with the idea that you can't find the truth if your mind is already full of other ideas.

 

And, for folks who lean toward a more secular way of life, it is still important to understand something about the people with whom we share the world.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Jenny in Florida

[Matryoshka]

This is more of a logic stage resource (I see your kids are still young), but I just got the Human Odyssey from K12, and it has a great treatment of the world's major religions and philosophies, and also shows how these ways of thinking of the world have impacted history over time.

 

Our church's middle school program also includes coverage of other religions and visits to their places of worship.

[Matryoshka]

Sorry just a little confused by this way of thinking, I'm not trying to be disrespectful in anyway.

 

The only kind of belief system that I'd really prefer my kids not end up with is one that thinks it has found the one true path to salvation, and that the rest of humanity is doomed unless it believes the same. Not trying to be disrepectful either. :001_smile:

[Alessandra]

Oh, I meant to include internet resources. For example, here is a fantastic Judaism resource -- geared at about your dc's ages:

http://www.akhlah.com/

 

You can google things like shofar audio or call to prayer in Saudi Arabia audio, etc. There are also people on this board living in the Middle East, China, etc -- they might have good info to questions on specific religions.

[sgilli3]

I loved Dk's "A Faith Like Mine"

 

I used this as our spine, then borrowed/bought books to supplement our reading for each unit we studied.

 

This year ( and last) we studied Christianity, Sikism, and Islam. ( though we study Islam + Arabic all year round)

 

We just started Hinduism in November, and will continue our study of it, and Islam again next year.

 

Im very open to the children learning about other peoples faith, and if it leads them into a religion one day- so be it.

[Lovedtodeath]

First I would ask, how well did this work for them?

 

Second I would ask, does one actually make "educated" decisions about religion? I have religious beliefs of my own, but they are not based on an "educated" evaluation of them. They are my beliefs because they resonate spiritually with me, not because I made a thorough survey of all the religions and chose the most ... I don't know, logical? reasonable?

 

I chose the religion that could prove itself. I studied evolution vs. creation, the authenticity of the Bible vs. a good book that men wrote and I decided from there. I want to please God. Following traditions of men that are contrary to scripture does not do this. So yes, I have found out what most religions believe and chose the most logical.

[Haiku]

Ok! I stand corrected. :)

 

Tara

[dragons in the flower bed]

They are my beliefs because they resonate spiritually with me, not because I made a thorough survey of all the religions and chose the most ... I don't know, logical? reasonable?

 

LOL, Tara, that's just what I did. At the time that I was beginning to do it, my grandmother told me her middle son had done precisely the same thing at the same age. I suspect many of us find our religion that way. I fully intend to share my logic with my kids, and if they can argue me out of it, I'll change my mind about it! In fact, it's a microcosm of education in general. We give our kids all the knowledge and arguments we struggled to get, and tell 'em to keep on struggling to get more truth out of the world, more juice out of the orange. Then we sit back in wonder and awe at what they accomplish.

[coralloyd]

Well, there are many people, including myself, who do not believe that there is one, all-powerful, all-true, this-way-or-you're-wrong belief system. The scholar Huston Smith has this wonderful saying that all of the world's faith traditions are like arrows shooting at the same star: We may all begin from different places and take different paths, but we're all pretty much aiming at the same truth.

 

Well I guess we can agree to disagree. Let me just leave you with a few thoughts. You say,"Well, there are many people, including myself, who do not believe that there is one, all-powerful, all-true, this-way-or-you're-wrong belief system" . Is this your belief system?

 

I know that is a very upsetting concept for many, more conservative or traditionally religious people, but it is what I believe. In fact, one of the principles of my own denomination (Unitarian Universalist) is that there is wisdom to be found in all of the faith traditions of the world.

 

Well I guess we can agree to disagree. Let me just leave you with a few thoughts. You say,"Well, there are many people, including myself, who do not believe that there is one, all-powerful, all-true, this-way-or-you're-wrong belief system" . Is this your belief system?

This sure sounds like an all-powerful, all-true, this-way or you're wrong belief system. If this is not true, please correct me. Then my question again would be, do you really believe this?

 

UUs also put a premium on the "free and responsible search for truth and meaning." So, for many of us, learning about religious belief in a broader way is part of practicing and refining our own faith. In fact, there's a wonderful quote that our minister used recently to preface a service that I can't quite remember. But it had something to do with the idea that you can't find the truth if your mind is already full of other ideas.

 

I agree that we need to search for the truth. What are the things that define your faith since it is being refined, anything? Are you saying that to find the truth you can't ever come to a place where you have an idea of what the truth is? Is that truth for you? Is this the "idea" you have come to believe?

 

And, for folks who lean toward a more secular way of life, it is still important to understand something about the people with whom we share the world.

 

Again I agree that we need to study and understand the people we share the world with, but that doesn't mean you should teach your children these are all correct. If you believe they are all correct, then you should teach this to your children and never have them choose. Also you should then agree with me when I say my faith is the truth. Think about it, everyone believes something. Even if that something is that there is no "one truth". That is your "one truth".

[coralloyd]

Oops my comments are placed inside your quote. So sorry! Here is what I said:

 

 

Well I guess we can agree to disagree. Let me just leave you with a few thoughts. You say,"Well, there are many people, including myself, who do not believe that there is one, all-powerful, all-true, this-way-or-you're-wrong belief system" . Is this your belief system?

 

This sure sounds like an all-powerful, all-true, this-way or you're wrong belief system. If this is not true, please correct me. Then my question again would be, do you really believe this?

 

I agree that we need to search for the truth. What are the things that define your faith since it is being refined, anything? Are you saying that to find the truth you can't ever come to a place where you have an idea of what the truth is? Is that truth for you? Is this the "idea" you have come to believe?

[arcara]

I would just want to be REALLY careful about your sources. As a Catholic, I know how misunderstood and misrepresented my own faith is, so I'm also very careful about what I read about other faiths.

[mommaduck]

Yes, be very careful about your sources. I would go directly to the source, personally. Thus, I wouldn't take any church's curriculum on OTHER religions.

[Lovedtodeath]

Ok! I stand corrected. :)

 

Tara

:cheers2:

[Mama Lynx]

First I would ask, how well did this work for them?

 

Second I would ask, does one actually make "educated" decisions about religion? I have religious beliefs of my own, but they are not based on an "educated" evaluation of them. They are my beliefs because they resonate spiritually with me, not because I made a thorough survey of all the religions and chose the most ... I don't know, logical? reasonable?

 

I'm not saying not to expose your kids to lots of religions. We do, both by choice and necessity (our kids attend religious education in our faith but also have friends and family of varying religions, and we welcome any opportunity for the kids to learn about various religions). But I don't see it as a "Here, kids, is your buffet, try it all and then decide what you like best." Having been raised with no religion and then acquiring a religion, I don't really think it works that way.

 

Tara

 

My husband made a list of the things he needed in a religion, and what resonated with him spiritually; then he made a survey of religions until he found the right fit.

 

So, for some people, yes, it can work just that way.

[Diane in NH]

I think the difficulty of studying different religions through a book of comparative religions, is that you children won't really get the feel for any of them. They are just more "cold." I think the best way might be to start off reading the basics about a particular faith. Then maybe finding a homeschooler in your area that would be willing to share some of their traditions and customs that are related to the faith, or share with you some of the books that that family uses. I would also visit maybe a Catholic church and talk to the priest, a Synagogue and talk to the rabbi, a local Protestant church and talk to the minister/reverend, etc... I would talk to them about the possibility of attending a service as well...

[mommaduck]

Protestants vary GREATLY! Anabaptist, Baptist, Pentacostal, Reformed, etc.

[KarenNC]

Here's the curriculum that our UU church used a few years ago for our elementary students. It's available as a free download and would likely be at least a good source for reading lists.

http://www.smuuchurch.org/index.php?page=re-curriculum

 

They are using a different one this go round (we have a 2.5 year rotating series of themes for religious education), but I'm not sure of what it will be (starts in February).

 

I have to agree that the six months at one place, then another would not have worked for me as a child, particularly at the ages of your children. It would have taken me that long to begin to get comfortable with new people, new situation and then be subjected to it then again would have been awful. There are also so many assumptions of existing base knowledge in an actual religion-specific religious education program that I don't think you would actually accomplish your goal with 6 months of religious school attendance at any house of worship. That leaves out the fact that you would miss important religious festivals depending on which 6 months you chose. I am guessing that the idea is to learn how someone of this religion lives their life religiously, but that takes a lot longer than 6 months. We were heavily involved in the Reform Jewish temple here for close to a year as adults, studying for conversion, and only got a beginning of a glimmer of what it would be like to be Jewish, for instance.

 

Now if you wanted to spend a concentrated six months on one religion at home, perhaps visiting a few of the different types of communities within that religion and teaching about it, it might be a different matter. There is such a broad spectrum of practice and belief within each religion that just picking one example of it to attend for religious school wouldn't really give an accurate view of the possibilities within each one. I'm not sure your kids are truly old enough for that sort of in depth approach at this age, though. It might be better done when they are in the logic stage. For now, you may simply want to focus on general familiarity with various religions. Many of the books mentioned so far would do that.

 

Here I am assuming that by "religion" you mean actual different religions (Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, etc) vs. different denominations of a single religion like Christianity (Baptist, Catholic, Evangelical, Lutheran, etc). You may also be limited in your ability to visit a variety of different religions by the houses of worship that are actually present in your community. The smaller the community, the less likely to have a lot of diversity as a general rule. That's at least the case here in the US, particularly in the southern US, don't know about Australia.

 

Good luck.

[Jenny in Florida]

Well I guess we can agree to disagree. Let me just leave you with a few thoughts. You say,"Well, there are many people, including myself, who do not believe that there is one, all-powerful, all-true, this-way-or-you're-wrong belief system" . Is this your belief system?

 

You know how, if you stand near a piano and play a note, the corresponding string will vibrate in sympathy? Well, that's kind of how I think about faith. One string isn't "better" or "truer" than another. But some resonate with certain sounds and not with others.

 

So, what I believe is that we were given minds in order to use them, that each of us is capable of finding the approach that resonates with our own hearts, and that as long as your approach doesn't hurt anyone else, it's valid.

 

This sure sounds like an all-powerful, all-true, this-way or you're wrong belief system. If this is not true, please correct me. Then my question again would be, do you really believe this?

 

Nope, not true, because what I'm saying is that each of us has to find what works for us. So, if your way works for you, that's great. I'm happy for you. That is truth for you. I guess the only way we could come into conflict is if you weren't as respectful of my beliefs as I am of yours. And, yes, I really do believe exactly that.

 

I agree that we need to search for the truth. What are the things that define your faith since it is being refined, anything? Are you saying that to find the truth you can't ever come to a place where you have an idea of what the truth is? Is that truth for you? Is this the "idea" you have come to believe?

 

Well, my denomination has a statement of seven principles that bind us together. They are:

 

• The inherent worth and dignity of every person;

• Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;

• Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;

• A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;

• The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;

• The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;

• Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

As you can see, these aren't a creed. For UUs, one's creed is a personal thing. My own beliefs are evolving, but they fit rather neatly inside this framework. So, I cannot speak for all UUs regarding whether they feel they have found "truth." For me, no, I'm not there yet. I know some things that are true for me, but I do not presume to know Truth with a capital T. What I hope is that every day I move a bit closer to understanding, though. And that is enough for me. I'm comfortable with the uncertainty and the continuing search.

 

Again I agree that we need to study and understand the people we share the world with, but that doesn't mean you should teach your children these are all correct. If you believe they are all correct, then you should teach this to your children and never have them choose. Also you should then agree with me when I say my faith is the truth. Think about it, everyone believes something. Even if that something is that there is no "one truth". That is your "one truth".

 

I think this is too simplistic. What I believe is that there is value in all faith traditions and that there is no need to "choose." As Unitarian Universalists, my children have the freedom to explore all paths and find the ideas and beliefs that resonate with their own hearts. I don't disagree that everyone believes something, even if it is that they don't believe in what others do believe. And I do agree with you that, for you, your faith is truth.

 

And I also completely recognize your right to think I'm wrong and not be theatened by that. Because I'm listening to my own heart resonating.

[mommaduck]

Looked over the UU curriculum on the Christian section. It doesn't do too bad of a job, but it does represent only one segment of Christianity, which causes presumptions about the rest.

[KarenNC]

Looked over the UU curriculum on the Christian section. It doesn't do too bad of a job, but it does represent only one segment of Christianity, which causes presumptions about the rest.

 

That was pretty much my point about the "six months here, six months there" exactly. Picking only one congregation/denomination/etc is going to give simply a snapshot, not the fullness of possibility of any religion.

 

For Christianity, do you pick Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Catholic, Church of the Nazarene, nondenominational, LDS, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, etc?

 

For Judaism, do you pick Reform, Renewal, Conservative, Orthodox?

 

For Neopaganism, do you pick Wiccan (and which form of that), Asatru, Druidic, eclectic, etc?

 

I'm sure there are similar issues in Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and any other religions that might be in one's area.

 

Overall, from what I have seen and what I remember, children, especially those of the OP's children's ages, value stability. I have always considered it a better approach to give the child a firm and regular grounding in the family's beliefs and religious practices, if any, while exposing the child to knowledge *about* other religions as developmentally appropriate. To me, that says to the child more loudly than any words that faith is something that is important, to be taken seriously, not picked up and discarded lightly. I'm afraid that six months here, six months there might give the opposite impression to some children.

[coralloyd]

Thanks for your response back :). I guess we're at a stand still over the meaning of truth. Mine is:

 

a fact that has been verified

Conformity to fact or actuality

A statement proven to be or accepted as true

that which is true; statement, etc. that accords with fact or reality

 

I know that many have a different ideas about truth. You said " And I do agree with you that, for you, your faith is truth." I find this so interesting, when you don't even know what I believe. For all you know My faith could be based on the belief that 1+1=3 or that the sun is made of cotton candy.Yet you would still say it is truth "for me". I don't uderstand then this definition of truth. I know that when you posted this question you were probably afraid someone like me would come along.Thank you so much for this discussion.This has been fasinating to me.

[Balancing]

I would just want to be REALLY careful about your sources. As a Catholic, I know how misunderstood and misrepresented my own faith is, so I'm also very careful about what I read about other faiths.

 

Do you have a recommendation for teaching the history and beliefs of the Catholic Church to children?

[buddhabelly]

Nobody has mentioned my favorite series. I enjoy it because it is NOT dry... in fact each book follows a real child (REAL!! child!!) as he/she practices her faith. I remember that in the Muslim one, the boy explains that when he turned seven, he could fast and pray like his father rather than a child would. I have linked to the one on Buddhism, because, you know: http://www.franklinwatts.co.uk/RELIGION_Books_MY-BELIEF_Series_I-AM-A-BUDDHIST_26388_56141_69986_PB.htm

 

but all of them are on that page. I enjoyed this series because it was one of the few that was not really, really "off" about Buddhism. Even "Story of the World" is pretty bad on Buddhism. To be fair, though, Buddhism is pretty difficult to explain to a child. One teacher explained it to me this way: "I should just say 'be kind.' That is all, really. But that is too simple for people to understand, so that's why Buddhism has 10 of this and 8 of that and 6 paramitas... If you really understand 'be kind,' I could stop talking now and we could all go home."

 

Now I just hope this really is the series I read......

 

ETA: Oh, dear. I think it was actually this one: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=TAHIf99sbZMC&dq=I+am+a+Buddhist&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=M1Quu2i7_m&sig=7-jbp0NXREesq2GhEUbFiKAmw_E&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA5,M1

 

No, it wasn't. But I like the definition of "enlightenment" in this one. It simply means a complete understanding of the true nature of reality, discovered for yourself rather than taking anyone else's word for it. Even the Buddha said, "Don't take my word for it."

Julie

Edited December 30, 2008 by buddhabelly

[Lovedtodeath]

It sounds great Julie. I might keep this thread for that.

[Peela]

I haven't read all the other posts, but I have found that various religions come up in history, particularly ancient history. My logic stage kids learned about Buddhism, Taoism, and several others, when we covered Ancients this last year. And they read some Great Books that are related to Hinduism and Taoism. I did make a point of stopping and savouring the religions because I have an interest in that area and was excited to cover that with my kids. My kids have no interest though, and kind of rolled their eyes a lot when I would enthusiastically share something :)

 

I don't think choosing a religion is necessary at all- people talk as if it is necessary to adopt a belief system, but I think that is not what spirituality is at all. It is all an attempt to point at Truth. Truth is not something any one group of people has a monopoly on, it just is, and all religions are just having a go at expressing Truth and living well. So I never want my kids to feel they should find the one true thing to "believe" because Truth exists all on its own, it doesnt need "beliefs" and religions, in fact they get in the way.

So I approach religious studies as an observation of how people try to live the best way they know, and often follow people who were very, very wise- and I learn from others in that way, and the wise people who have left their wisdom to be read and spoken about. But I dont approach religious studies in the hope I will find something to believe, and nor do I want my kids to find something to believe in- even though they may be drawn to some more than others. I dont see that as necessary, or spiritual. Its ok not to adopt a whole set of belief systems. Its ok to live in "not knowing" the whole of your life.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Peela

[Friederike in Persia]

Do you have a recommendation for teaching the history and beliefs of the Catholic Church to children?

 

:iagree: Very interested too!!!

I'm so protestant it's nearly oozing out my ears :bigear: and would love to understand more about Catholicism!

[arcara]

Do you have a recommendation for teaching the history and beliefs of the Catholic Church to children?

 

For beliefs, I would probably recommend the Baltimore Catechism, starting with Volume 1 (http://www.setonbooks.com/search.php?PHPSESSID=b96926d92ff3ebfcd9199ef4ea1e3773&subject=&grade=&userSearchString=Baltimore+Catechism). These were written for children. These religion books (Religion 1 FYC, Religion 2 FYC, etc.) http://www.setonbooks.com/search.php?subject=&grade=&userSearchString=Religion+for+Young+Catholics are very good, too and have beautiful pictures!

 

History is more difficult :) There is a good History of the Church in the Didache series (http://www.amazon.com/History-Church-Didache-Peter-Armenio/dp/1890177466/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230643865&sr=8-1). It's written for high schoolers, though, and about $40 new. You could check your library, but I'd be surprised to find it there. Again you could look at Catholic homeschool sites, like the one mentioned above, but a lot of them focus on American history from a Catholic perspective in the elementary years. There is a group of moms who are writing a Catholic history. You can find it on www.rchistory.com. Obviously, I'm not suggesting the whole program to you. But you could look at some of their spines and teacher resources in Volume 2 (http://www.stgeorgebooks.com/display_results.cfm/category/255/Connecting-with-History-Volume-2/). The teacher resources are for the parents, but you could read them and then pass along the info to your kids. I wish I had better recs for you for Catholic history for children!

Edited December 30, 2008 by arcara
added websites

[kalanamak]

Its ok to live in "not knowing" the whole of your life.

 

Me, too. Especially when people do over the top things in the name of religion, or say something that is incomprehensible in front of my son (the last one was something along the lines of how god punishes people who marry outside their race by giving them a higher percentage of children with birth defects....I've heard this more than once from people who my hubby grew up with), I tell them that some people are just more comfortable thinking they have "the answer" to the mysteries of life, but that I don't, and I'm perfectly happy with it.

[Nan in Mass]

I think your list is fine, and not something with which most UUers would disagree. I think most UUers would say, though, that it is highly unlikely at this time that we know ALL the facts, that we are able see and know everything about the universe, and until we know more, we are looking at an incomplete picture and labeling truth what we see. This allows one thing to be "true" for one person, and another thing to be "true" for a different person, both at the same time. They are looking at the same thing, but seeing it from different points of view. For example, I don't think anyone can see God in his entirety, can really know what he is completely, so if you see and focus on some aspects and find those aspects to be true in your experience, and I see and focus on other ones and find them to be true is so far as my experience extends, we could both be right. And knowing this, I would definately hesitate to say that your beliefs, if you really believe them, are wrong, when I think probably they are right for you at this time. I think all people, being only human, can only see part of the picture. If you put three oranges on corners of a square, someone looking at them diagonally would see three, but someone looking at them perpendicular to one side of the square would see two. And someone looking at them in more than the 4 dimensions we usually deal with would see something different. Obviously, religion is a great deal more complicated than oranges, but hopefully you can figure out what I am trying to say. Jenny is better at explaining than I GRIN.

-Nan

[Jenny in Florida]

I guess we're at a stand still over the meaning of truth. Mine is:

 

a fact that has been verified

Conformity to fact or actuality

A statement proven to be or accepted as true

that which is true; statement, etc. that accords with fact or reality

 

Well, you see, that would be close to my definition of truth, too. However, the way I see it, this means that most of what is considered "truth" in most religions doesn't meet these criteria (except possibly the third one, in which case pretty much anything does).

 

This is why I don't worry about finding "truth" when it comes to matters of faith.

 

I know that when you posted this question you were probably afraid someone like me would come along.Thank you so much for this discussion.This has been fasinating to me.

 

Just to clarify: I did not post the original question. I posted sharing resources my family has found useful. then couldn't resist replying to your comments. I don't really think this is particularly useful to the poster, however, so we should probably let it drop now.

[KarenNC]

Thanks for your response back :). I guess we're at a stand still over the meaning of truth. Mine is:

 

a fact that has been verified

Conformity to fact or actuality

A statement proven to be or accepted as true

that which is true; statement, etc. that accords with fact or reality

 

I know that many have a different ideas about truth. You said " And I do agree with you that, for you, your faith is truth." I find this so interesting, when you don't even know what I believe. For all you know My faith could be based on the belief that 1+1=3 or that the sun is made of cotton candy.Yet you would still say it is truth "for me". I don't uderstand then this definition of truth. I know that when you posted this question you were probably afraid someone like me would come along.Thank you so much for this discussion.This has been fasinating to me.

 

I will chime in as a UU who will say that my religious beliefs about spiritual reality follow your definition of truth precisely in as far as it is possible for any belief system to do so. There is, as I see it, no faith statement about any divine being or beings that can be "proven" objectively in a scientific sense of the word to be "true" in that sense.

 

Regardless of the religion, for most folks in the end actual belief comes down to UPG--unverifiable personal gnosis. We believe what we believe because it matches *our* experiences of spiritual reality, not because someone else says it should, and because we believe it to be right. Personally, I would not be content to base my beliefs on "a statement accepted as true" if it did not match up with my actual personal experiences.

 

My faith (and I would be astonished if it matches yours, since I'm pretty fringe even among UUs ;)) matches precisely with my experience of spiritual reality. I tried to ignore or turn those experiences into something else for decades so that they would fit more into what others said I should believe, but in the end, had to accept that *this* matched what was actually happening. So, yes, that means that if one does not agree with my faith, then I do indeed think that one is mistaken about spiritual reality in some way, whatever that one's belief is. I do not subscribe to the idea that all beliefs are equally accurate in describing spiritual reality. If they were, it would not matter which faith path I followed and I would have stuck with the one that is most socially acceptable.;)

 

Luckily, I am not responsible in any way for anyone else's belief or lack thereof:001_smile:. That means that I am free to simply behave toward you according to the precepts of my belief and my faith community----with respect simply because you are another living being, not just because you agree with me. If you believe the sun is made of cotton candy, it does not harm me or change my experiences of spiritual reality in any way, any more than it does if you believe I am going to Hell or that I am 100% right. The only way in which the beliefs of others comes into play is in getting a better idea of the assumptions about the world on which they function or if their *actions* (not beliefs) cause harm to or interfere with others.

 

I consider it my responsibility to teach my own child, in this and all other areas, what I believe to be the actual truth, but in the end as an adult she will be responsible for herself in this area. It is not something over which I have control any more than my parents had control over my beliefs (as much as they tried and wished to do so). So I raise her in our beliefs and also teach her *about* other religions, even take her to festivals and worship services of many other religions from time to time, so that she will not see them as something to fear and will have a better idea of the precepts by which other people are living (plus it's fun and interesting for me;)).

[Rosie_0801]

I have a great old plan set out for teaching the religions to my kids, since this is something important to me. I, like quite a few on this thread, am worried less about truth and more about what works for me. I freak my hubby out because I have a fairly in depth theory of reincarnation that I don't even believe in, but use anyway because it makes me feel better.

 

Anyhow, the plan (which may or may not really eventuate!)

 

Year 1, 5, 9: Dead religions, animism, Shinto

Year 2, 6, 10: Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Taoism, Confucianism

Year 3, 7, 11: Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai

Year 4, 8, 12: Humanism, Neopaganism, Atheism, psychology perhaps.

 

Grammar: the stories, books about belief, places of worship, founders/ prophets. The children's bible level books.

Logic: the story behind the stories (who wrote them and for whom), festivals, geography (where it started and modern worshippers.) The chapter book version of the holy text(s)

Rhetoric : The adult version of the religious text, history of the different sects and some thoughts about the purpose of religion.

 

Obviously I won't be able to cover everything about everything, but with a plan in mind, I can seek out appropriate resources to use and we'll do our best. I don't want my kids ending up like a woman I met once who confidentially whispered to me how scary those Muslim, terrorist taxi drivers were. They were Sikhs, not Muslims. *groan* This nice little Christian lady (not knocking Christians!) insisted the Chinese were alright, and clearly had no idea that Christianity has far more in common with Islam than any religion that's come out of China.

 

:)

Rosie

[Balancing]

For beliefs, I would probably recommend the Baltimore Catechism, starting with Volume 1 (http://www.setonbooks.com/search.php?PHPSESSID=b96926d92ff3ebfcd9199ef4ea1e3773&subject=&grade=&userSearchString=Baltimore+Catechism). These were written for children. These religion books (Religion 1 FYC, Religion 2 FYC, etc.) http://www.setonbooks.com/search.php?subject=&grade=&userSearchString=Religion+for+Young+Catholics are very good, too and have beautiful pictures!

 

History is more difficult :) There is a good History of the Church in the Didache series (http://www.amazon.com/History-Church-Didache-Peter-Armenio/dp/1890177466/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230643865&sr=8-1). It's written for high schoolers, though, and about $40 new. You could check your library, but I'd be surprised to find it there. Again you could look at Catholic homeschool sites, like the one mentioned above, but a lot of them focus on American history from a Catholic perspective in the elementary years. There is a group of moms who are writing a Catholic history. You can find it on www.rchistory.com. Obviously, I'm not suggesting the whole program to you. But you could look at some of their spines and teacher resources in Volume 2 (http://www.stgeorgebooks.com/display_results.cfm/category/255/Connecting-with-History-Volume-2/). The teacher resources are for the parents, but you could read them and then pass along the info to your kids. I wish I had better recs for you for Catholic history for children!

 

Wow, thanks for all the links! These look like wonderful resources.

[Penny]

Well, I was resisting for a long time......

 

All of these thoughts expressed here have been sorted out before in very logical fashion by previous great thinkers and they are available for us to learn from. The book that most affected my spiritual thinking (converting from agnostic/atheist and one who tended more toward eastern religions) was

C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity'

 

This is a very DEEP investigation of why God exists and why Lewis himself came to accept Christianity.

 

Another great book examining religions is:

 

Dean C. Halverson 'The Compact Guide to World Religions'

 

This book is excellent for catagorizing religions according to World View, ie, montheism, competing dualism, polytheism, balancing dualism, monism and atheism. Once one understands the underlying world view, then that world view can be examined for rationality.

 

I do think we all need to understand in a logical sense what we believe and make sure it has validity. All of our actions are based on what we believe to be true, and this affects others in the world. Hitler most certainly believed he was a helper of mankind!

 

Penny

[Lovedtodeath]

This was rude to everyone who believes that Christ is the only way to God. Over 60% of this board is Christian. I am amazed at how often the less than 30% who choose to speak out against Christianity can be disruptive. If Christians were set out to put down your faith, you would see a lot more of it. You don't because they are being more respectful than you are.

 

I have seen it so often that I cannot hold my piece any longer! By looking at posts you would most definitely get the idea that Christians are not the majority here.

[Jenny in Florida]

This was rude to everyone who believes that Christ is the only way to God. Over 60% of this board is Christian. I am amazed at how often the less than 30% who choose to speak out against Christianity can be disruptive. If Christians were set out to put down your faith, you would see a lot more of it. You don't because they are being more respectful than you are.

 

I have seen it so often that I cannot hold my piece any longer! By looking at posts you would most definitely get the idea that Christians are not the majority here.

 

Hmm, I have to say I don't think it was particularly rude. The title of this thread included the word "secular." So, it could be said that someone who came into the conversation to question the original poster's clear intent to educate her children about many religions for reasons that seem quite good to her was pretty darned rude, too. And I honestly don't see how calling that person on her rudeness could be rude?

 

And, truly, do you believe that the rest of us should hold our peace just because Christians are the majority? Really? That is not what our country was founded on, as I understand it. And I kind of doubt, given what I've read and learned about Jesus, that he'd be too happy with that idea, either.

[mommaduck]

Even as a Christian, I did not find it rude. Some people honestly don't want their kids to belong to a religion that believes in one truth or path, where others don't want their kids to belong to a religion that believes there are many paths. As long as they can respect that I want differently for MY kids, then I can respect them for desiring otherwise for theirs. I'm responsible for my children's spiritual well being and they are responsible for their children's spiritual well being.