What is the purpose of math education?

[EKS]

There is an editorial in the Washington Post today that claims that we are forcing kids through too much math in this country.

I'm going to be honest.  I have to say that I agree with this.

It seems to me that much of what is taught past basic algebra and geometry seems to be direct preparation for higher math and science classes and little else.

That said, I'm not sure how you decide who needs that in high school and who doesn't.  

Here's a link to the article: https://wapo.st/3SRkoVW

[SKL]

I agree that not everyone needs that level of math.

My kids entered high school in 2020.  At that time and until this past year, all high schoolers in my state were required to take at least Algebra I & II + geometry (and my kids' Alg II class included some trigonometry).  They also advised that in order to be "college ready," they would need an additional year of math on top of these.

Even though my kids are college bound, they will never use Algebra II (or trigonometry) concepts in their college programs.  Really, only kids who are planning to go into science-y fields will "need" that.  The only other logic I could see in requiring it would be to prove you have the smarts.  But why?  Why screen out non-mathy kids from non-mathy professions (or make things extra hard for them)?  My eldest needed a tutor (in addition to the teacher's after-school help) to avoid failing Algebra II.  As it was, she passed it with a D, destroying her otherwise good GPA and affecting her college scholarship.  😕  It's a shame.

Now my state has changed the requirements, but you still need Algebra I and geometry.  I still think that is unnecessary and maybe unfair as a graduation requirement.

My other beef is what they are NOT requiring:  practical math skills that young adults actually need.

[Heartstrings]

15 minutes ago, SKL said:

Now my state has changed the requirements, but you still need Algebra I and geometry.  I still think that is unnecessary and maybe unfair as a graduation requirement.

I could see a more basic geometry as a requirement or as a part of a requirement, basic geometry gets used a lot in “adulting” like crafting or basic DIY.  

[Alte Veste Academy]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

There is an editorial in the Washington Post today that claims that we are forcing kids through too much math in this country.

I'm going to be honest.  I have to say that I agree with this.

It seems to me that much of what is taught past basic algebra and geometry seems to be direct preparation for higher math and science classes and little else.

That said, I'm not sure how you decide who needs that in high school and who doesn't.  

Here's a link to the article: https://wapo.st/3SRkoVW

I agree. I agree with the suggestion of logic instruction. Further, learning real-life math topics such as budgeting, taxes, saving, investing, etc. would be a much better use of time for many. Heck, even statistics would have broader use for most.

[SKL]

16 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I could see a more basic geometry as a requirement or as a part of a requirement, basic geometry gets used a lot in “adulting” like crafting or basic DIY.  

Some simple things that we call "geometry" in middle school are included in what I'd call practical math.  To the extent needed to plan a DIY construction project, for example.

[wintermom]

I disagree, and I'm pretty sure that the stats of who uses math in their work is wrong. The article quotes only 22%, but at least in Canada, the majority of people work in manufacturing, construction and health care. Math is used daily in a lot of non-college jobs, such as construction trades and manufacturing. High school math and the ability to understand statistics would be beneficial for everyone so that they can read and understand research about their health, finances, budgeting, etc. I personally believe that, at least in Canada, math education stops too soon. Some type of practical math should be required right up to graduation, just as taking English is.

[SKL]

23 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I disagree, and I'm pretty sure that the stats of who uses math in their work is wrong. The article quotes only 22%, but at least in Canada, the majority of people work in manufacturing, construction and health care. Math is used daily in a lot of non-college jobs, such as construction trades and manufacturing. High school math and the ability to understand statistics would be beneficial for everyone so that they can read and understand research about their health, finances, budgeting, etc. I personally believe that, at least in Canada, math education stops too soon. Some type of practical math should be required right up to graduation, just as taking English is.

I'm a CPA, MBA, and attorney.  I've worked in accounting, tax, manufacturing (on the line, as a factory owner, and as an international pricing consultant), real estate, food service, health care, product design, employee benefits, retail, wholesale, hospitality, and more.  The ONLY time I've used the math I studied in high school or college (algebra I through calculus / analytic geometry) was whenever I needed to understand what a standard deviation was.

Of course I used practical math, which is no longer taught to most high school students.

Edited February 6 by SKL

[regentrude]

Aside from developing abstract reasoning capabilities and problem solving strategies: Choices.

Not teaching higher math closes doors for kids who then do not have the realistic choice to go into the fields that need it. (Don't give me the "they can always learn it when they need it". Nope, doesn't work. Of the STEM major students placing in remedial math at my college, only a single digit percentage manages to ever finish a STEM degree)

My HVAC guy told me he needs trigonometry.

The goal has to be a rigorous math education for the kids who are intellectually capable, and whatever can be achieved for kids who don't have the abilities. 
But lowering the standards even further? Then we can outsource all STEM to other countries.

Edited February 6 by regentrude

[Catwoman]

Forget about higher mathematics for a minute, because before they even get to the point of studying those subjects, I think kids need to learn a lot more basic arithmetic skills than they are apparently being taught. 

Seriously, it amazes me when I see people who can't figure out such basics as how to give change, how to calculate how much a 25% off sale would save them, or how to figure out how much the sales tax on a purchase will be. 

I'm a fan of higher math because it makes kids think. And I would disagree that people don't use basic algebra and geometry in their daily lives in everyday situations. We don't really think of it as using those skills because we're not sitting down doing formal equations, but we are still using what we learned.

[EKS]

42 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Math is used daily in a lot of non-college jobs, such as construction trades and manufacturing.

I suspect the math you're talking about here is really just advanced arithmetic.  I don't think that anyone is suggesting that we eliminate that.  And when I say "eliminate" I mean eliminate as a requirement.

[BronzeTurtle]

This thread is so disheartening.

Math is about problem solving, reasoning, pattern recognition, and thinking. It's a language of how the universe is ordered. Learning mathematics is not just about if you will use the specific areas taught later in life. Most of education isn't like that. This is like saying we need to read great literature so that we can define all the vocabulary in the books. What a short-sighted goal!

We should be teaching kids how to sit and wrestle with a hard math problem and that it might take a long time to see how it works. We should be teaching kids that it might take multiple tries of different techniques to finally come to a solution. We should be teaching them that plugging numbers into formulas isn't always a workable solution, they may have to explore other avenues. Mathematics, like so much of education, is about a way of thinking and recognizing and manipulating abstractions until you can see how they work. It is so important for development to learn to do these things that I'd even say it's worth doing without a certain aptitude or career in mind.

Budgeting, taxes, and finances are arithmetic. Surely arithmetic should be mastered but if one can read and do arithmetic they don't need whole classes on how to not spend more money than they make and how to fill out a government form (that it admittedly more complicated than it needs to be). You could cover that stuff in a week or less.

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Forget about higher mathematics for a minute, because before they even get to the point of studying those subjects, I think kids need to learn a lot more basic arithmetic skills than they are apparently being taught. 

Seriously, it amazes me when I see people who can't figure out such basics as how to give change, how to calculate how much a 25% off sale would save them, or how to figure out how much the sales tax on a purchase will be. 

I'm a fan of higher math because it makes kids think. And I would disagree that people don't use basic algebra and geometry in their daily lives in everyday situations. We don't really think of it as using those skills because we're not sitting down doing formal equations, but we are still using what we learned.

Completely agree. My DS's 3rd grade teacher did not understand percent.
Everyone needs fractions, proportions, percentages. If spending six years on this stuff in school (before any "higher" math starts) doesn't produce results, maybe it's time to look at those math programs and the people who teach them.
First step to fix things: ban calculators .

[QueenCat]

16 minutes ago, regentrude said:

 

But lowering the standards even further? Then we can outsourcing all STEM to other countries.

Agree 100%. We need to RAISE standards for all students, not lower them. We already outsource too much due to our LOW standards in math.

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

We should be teaching kids how to sit and wrestle with a hard math problem and that it might take a long time to see how it works. We should be teaching kids that it might take multiple tries of different techniques to finally come to a solution.

Super important.

And even what counts for "higher" math in high school mostly fails at this. What the students learn is to drill until they can solve one particular type of problem they have practiced ad nauseam - but are completely stumped when they encounter a problem they don't know how to solve right away. They are paralyzed - where they should be thinking, playing, trying approaches, drawing pictures. My DS noted that explicitly about his classmates (physics majors! If anybody should know how to wrestle with problems, it should be they.)

[Heartstrings]

13 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

Agree 100%. We need to RAISE standards for all students, not lower them. We already outsource too much due to our LOW standards in math.

And have even more kids who can’t reach those lofty goals? I’m not sure more adults without a high school diploma is a great plan in a country with a bootstraps mentality and no social safety net. 

[Heartstrings]

33 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Don't give me the "they can always learn it when they need it". Nope, doesn't work. Of the STEM major students placing in remedial math at my college, only a single digit percentage manages to ever finish a STEM degree)

Remedial classes are a joke, full stop.  There is NO effort put into them.  My kid is on his 2nd pre Calc class in a 2nd university in a 2nd state and pre Calc is taught the same way.  Here is Pearson online, good luck.  No live teacher at all. Just 100% Pearson videos with Pearson online problem sets.    Every single problem gets met with “that is the correct answer but the wrong format” and 2 different instructors now can’t tell him how to put the answers in correctly to appease the program.   At this point I’m convinced it’s on purpose because the powers that be would prefer to out source STEM so they can pay foreign workers less.  

 It’s my fault, I mistakenly assumed taking pre Calc at the college with a teacher would be better than fumbling through it with me at home.  

[EKS]

45 minutes ago, regentrude said:

My HVAC guy told me he needs trigonometry.

When he says he needs trig, does he mean heavy duty identity manipulation or does he mean SOH CAH TOA?

[MEmama]

33 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Seriously, it amazes me when I see people who can't figure out such basics as how to give change, how to calculate how much a 25% off sale would save them, or how to figure out how much the sales tax on a purchase will be. 

 

2 hours ago, SKL said:

My eldest needed a tutor (in addition to the teacher's after-school help) to avoid failing Algebra II.  As it was, she passed it with a D, destroying her otherwise good GPA and affecting her college scholarship.

Both of these are me. In high school I was a straight A student who only graduated because my Algebra teacher took mercy on me and didn't fail me outright. My engineer father helped me, I had a peer tutor, I went every week to early morning tutoring with my teacher and nope...it just doesn't make sense in my brain. Im the cashier who still gets flustered and cries over making change. 
 

These conversations are hard to swallow, from people who haven't been there. 
 

(in case anyone is worried, no I did not TOUCH math while homeschooling lol)

[EKS]

29 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

We need to RAISE standards for all students, not lower them.

And raising standards should start with ensuring that all (or almost all) kids actually master arithmetic to a solid 8th grade level.  

Tacking on mandatory coursework in high school (such as Algebra 2) will not solve the problem of a lack of arithmetic skills.

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Remedial classes are a joke, full stop.  There is NO effort put into them.  My kid is on his 2nd pre Calc class in a 2nd university in a 2nd state and pre Calc is taught the same way.  Here is Pearson online, good luck.  No live teacher at all. Just 100% Pearson videos with Pearson online problem sets.    Every single problem gets met with “that is the correct answer but the wrong format” and 2 different instructors now can’t tell him how to put the answers in correctly to appease the program. 

Not here. Our professors work very hard in the in-person remedial classes. 

 

[regentrude]

20 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

And have even more kids who can’t reach those lofty goals? I’m not sure more adults without a high school diploma is a great plan in a country with a bootstraps mentality and no social safety net. 

Tracking. Not have a one-size-fits-all model where everybody marches to the speed of the slowest drummer.
In my home country, less academically inclined students can graduate after 10th grade with a diploma (they are not a dropout!) and continue their mandatory (until age 18) education in VoTech /apprenticeship.
 

[Heartstrings]

Just now, regentrude said:

Not here. Our professors work very hard in the in-person remedial classes. 

 

Can I enroll my kid just for that class at your university?  I’d seriously pay very good money for a class with a teacher.  He gets the material he just gets stymied by the Pearson online crap.  It’s heartbreaking to experience this in 2 separate colleges in two different states.  I’d love to see the stats on this class, I’m not sure how anyone ever passes it.  

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

Tracking. Not have a one-size-fits-all model where everybody marches to the speed of the slowest drummer.
In my home country, less academically inclined students can graduate after 10th grade with a diploma (they are not a dropout!) and continue their mandatory (until age 18) education in VoTech /apprenticeship.
 

I believe that’s sort of what was being proposed earlier.  Dropping advanced math as a requirement for a basic high school diploma.  Needing Alg 2+ for every single student means some kids aren’t graduating and in the US that means dropping out.  Letting some kids take more practical math and still graduate would get us closer to the system in your home country.  I don’t think anyone was saying no kids should be allowed access to higher math. 

[EKS]

6 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Can I enroll my kid just for that class at your university?

DO precalculus is excellent, FWIW.

[Library Momma]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Tracking. Not have a one-size-fits-all model where everybody marches to the speed of the slowest drummer.
In my home country, less academically inclined students can graduate after 10th grade with a diploma (they are not a dropout!) and continue their mandatory (until age 18) education in VoTech /apprenticeship.
 

That does already exist in places in the US.  Kids who aren't as academically inclined here can go to vocational schools for high school.  Those that stay in public school can choose a "business" math track in high school that is less rigorous and possibly more useful.

[wintermom]

43 minutes ago, EKS said:

I suspect the math you're talking about here is really just advanced arithmetic.  I don't think that anyone is suggesting that we eliminate that.  And when I say "eliminate" I mean eliminate as a requirement.

Carpenters use trigonometry, as do other trades. And very often the math needed is how to set up and complete multiple steps of fairly challenging calculations. Algebra is needed for many calculations, and for the science (air pressure, water pressure). 

The thing about math, is that if you go several years without doing it (such as the last 2 years of high school) it's very easy to forget and lose confidence. A lot of the adult education I'm involved in for construction trades and manufacturing is first to help many people remember what they haven't done for years, and then help build up the confidence that they can re-learn it so that they can advance in their trades career. If you get the math wrong it's not just a case of getting a low mark in a class, it could be the cost of redoing a job or a serious safety issue if you've messed up the water/air pressure. 

 

[Frances]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

I agree that not everyone needs that level of math.

My kids entered high school in 2020.  At that time and until this past year, all high schoolers in my state were required to take at least Algebra I & II + geometry (and my kids' Alg II class included some trigonometry).  They also advised that in order to be "college ready," they would need an additional year of math on top of these.

Even though my kids are college bound, they will never use Algebra II (or trigonometry) concepts in their college programs.  Really, only kids who are planning to go into science-y fields will "need" that.  The only other logic I could see in requiring it would be to prove you have the smarts.  But why?  Why screen out non-mathy kids from non-mathy professions (or make things extra hard for them)?  My eldest needed a tutor (in addition to the teacher's after-school help) to avoid failing Algebra II.  As it was, she passed it with a D, destroying her otherwise good GPA and affecting her college scholarship.  😕  It's a shame.

You’re absolutely sure neither child will ever need to take a basic college statistics class? An awful lots of majors outside the humanities and arts require it and they would generally need both Algebra I and Algebra II before taking it, although not trigonometry. So I disagree that only kids going into science-y fields need Algebra II. Business and economic majors, psychology and sociology majors, math majors, etc etc would all need Algebra II. 
 

I also disagree that only “mathy” kids can succeed at classes like Algebra II. That’s certainly not the view in most of the rest of the world. Most college bound kids in other countries are successfully mastering much more math than Algebra II.

Edited February 6 by Frances

[Heartstrings]

Just now, EKS said:

DO precalculus is excellent, FWIW.

I’m going to try, again, to get him to do it at home and go straight to Calc 1 at the college, which he could do Im pretty sure. I think we’re both afraid that the rest of the math sequence will be taught the same way making the whole attempt at college pointless. I guess I need him to talk to someone in the math department.  

[SKL]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Aside from developing abstract reasoning capabilities and problem solving strategies: Choices.

Not teaching higher math closes doors for kids who then do not have the realistic choice to go into the fields that need it. (Don't give me the "they can always learn it when they need it". Nope, doesn't work. Of the STEM major students placing in remedial math at my college, only a single digit percentage manages to ever finish a STEM degree)

My HVAC guy told me he needs trigonometry.

The goal has to be a rigorous math education for the kids who are intellectually capable, and whatever can be achieved for kids who don't have the abilities. 
But lowering the standards even further? Then we can outsource all STEM to other countries.

I totally agree with choices.  But currently, states are requiring algebra II and some trig for every kid who hopes to graduate high school.  That's not what I think of when I say "choices."

By all means, offer as much math as a child desires to attempt.  In my district, that includes college math.  Go for it.  Just don't require every 90 IQ student to do it or drop out.

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, Frances said:

You’re absolutely sure neither child will ever need to take a basic college statistics class? An awful lots of majors outside the humanities and arts require it and they would generally need both Algebra I and Algebra II before taking it, although not trigonometry. So I disagree that only kids going into science-y fields need Algebra II. Business and economic majors, psychology and sociology majors, math majors, etc etc would all need Algebra II. 

My sociology degree required stats but it wasn’t the same as the stats in the math department.  It was a stats for humanity majors. 

Edited February 6 by Heartstrings

[SKL]

1 hour ago, QueenCat said:

Agree 100%. We need to RAISE standards for all students, not lower them.

I feel like this sentiment is often voiced by those who are smart and have smart kids.

I used to say the same, because I didn't ever find math (or anything else) intellectually difficult.  But then, I was in the top few percent of IQs, so of course it was easy for me.

But working with kids who really struggle with math?  The question should be, what do they really need?  Will their life really have less value if they don't know how to graph a complex equation with multiple variables?  Will it really be better for struggling kids to give up and drop out rather than take the courses that have practical use for them?

My kid wants to be a social worker.  Please explain why she needs to understand integrals.

Edited February 6 by SKL

[SKL]

1 hour ago, BronzeTurtle said:

We should be teaching kids how to sit and wrestle with a hard math problem and that it might take a long time to see how it works. We should be teaching kids that it might take multiple tries of different techniques to finally come to a solution. We should be teaching them that plugging numbers into formulas isn't always a workable solution, they may have to explore other avenues. Mathematics, like so much of education, is about a way of thinking and recognizing and manipulating abstractions until you can see how they work. It is so important for development to learn to do these things that I'd even say it's worth doing without a certain aptitude or career in mind.

For some kids, a practical life math problem does all of this.

[Frances]

6 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

My sociology degree required stats but it wasn’t the same as the stats in the math department.  It was a stats for humanity majors. 

I would assume it was algebra based statistics you took, not calculus based statistics from the math department. One still needs two years of high school algebra for algebra based statistics. I taught it for several years and students who didn’t have solid algebra skills struggled.

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

feel like this sentiment is often voiced by those who are smart and have smart kids.

It also leaves out the darker side, more humans in the homeless encampments, or in low paying dead end jobs on the meager assistance we offer, more human in the prison system, more kids in foster care. Higher requirements means more drop outs.  More kids dropping out means more poverty. 

[EKS]

15 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Carpenters use trigonometry, as do other trades.

When you say trigonometry, I suspect you're talking about right triangle trigonometry which is taught in geometry, and which I'm not suggesting we eliminate as a requirement for HS graduation. 

[EKS]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

One still needs two years of high school algebra for algebra based statistics.

Not really.  You need a basic understanding of algebra and an ability to push buttons on a calculator (or better yet, prepare Excel spreadsheets).

[EKS]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

I feel like this sentiment is often voiced by those who are smart and have smart kids.

I strongly agree with this.  People in the upper third-ish of the distribution (roughly, people with bachelor's degrees) have no idea that their experience is not the norm.  It is a serious problem, and not just when it comes to figuring out math requirements for schools.

[SKL]

16 minutes ago, Frances said:

You’re absolutely sure neither child will ever need to take a basic college statistics class? An awful lots of majors outside the humanities and arts require it and they would generally need both Algebra I and Algebra II before taking it, although not trigonometry. So I disagree that only kids going into science-y fields need Algebra II. Business and economic majors, psychology and sociology majors, math majors, etc etc would all need Algebra II. 
 

I also disagree that only “mathy” kids can succeed at classes like Algebra II. That’s certainly not the view in most of the rest of the world. Most college bound kids in other countries are successfully mastering much more math than Algebra II.

My kids are currently taking stats in high school and will take stats again in college and probably grad school.  They do need to have a basic understanding of study results etc.  Much more practical than the graduation requirements!

Stats is very different from algebra, trigonometry, and geometry.  Yes, I've taken all of them.

[Frances]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

My kid wants to be a social worker.  Please explain why she needs to understand integrals.

I don’t think anyone is advocating for calculus to be a requirement for social workers. But I would certainly hope she’s required to take at least one statistics class for her degree, as it would seem quite important in that field. And that means solid algebra skills through Algebra II.

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

Not really.  You need a basic understanding of algebra and an ability to push buttons on a calculator (or better yet, prepare Excel spreadsheets).

Excel plug ins for the win!  I didn’t use matrices or imaginary numbers once in my social stats class.  

Edited February 6 by Heartstrings

[Arcadia]

11 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think we’re both afraid that the rest of the math sequence will be taught the same way making the whole attempt at college pointless.

Depending on his intended major, your son may be able to complete all the math requirements at community college where it’s typically smaller class size and more help. Pearson MathLab was a small portion of my kids’ math classes at community college. DS19 has to do a statistics for engineering class for his computer science major at his state university, all his other required math classes were done at community college prior to transfer. His statistics class (upper division) was large since it was a requirement for all students in engineering school at the university.

[Frances]

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

Not really.  You need a basic understanding of algebra and an ability to push buttons on a calculator (or better yet, prepare Excel spreadsheets).

Having taught it for many years, I would disagree. Solid algebra skills, math sense, and good problem solving skills are what lead to success in statistics. 

[EKS]

Just now, Frances said:

I don’t think anyone is advocating for calculus to be a requirement for social workers.

What's interesting is how far do you back off?  I mean, that is really the question.

Calculus shouldn't be a requirement for social workers (which I absolutely agree with, btw).  Should precalculus be?  Algebra 2?  What sort of statistics should they understand?  You can teach statistics pretty qualitatively, which I would say is appropriate for the vast majority of social science majors.  

[Frances]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

My kids are currently taking stats in high school and will take stats again in college and probably grad school.  They do need to have a basic understanding of study results etc.  Much more practical than the graduation requirements!

Stats is very different from algebra, trigonometry, and geometry.  Yes, I've taken all of them.

Stats extensively uses Algebra. They couldn’t have succeeded in Statistics without it unless it was only a conceptual course.

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, Frances said:

I don’t think anyone is advocating for calculus to be a requirement for social workers. But I would certainly hope she’s required to take at least one statistics class for her degree, as it would seem quite important in that field. And that means solid algebra skills through Algebra II.

I disagree.  I took stats in grad school for my MBA.  The only thing that touched on algebra II was standard deviations.  While it was a nice flex to understand that in some depth, it was not actually necessary for a reasonable understanding of social study data.  (And many of my classmates had never taken algebra or had no memory of it.)

[EKS]

Just now, Frances said:

Having taught it for many years, I would disagree. Solid algebra skills, math sense, and good problem solving skills are what lead to success in statistics.

Solid algebra skills meaning what?  Up to what level?  

As for math sense and good problem solving skills--that's really the crux of the problem with math education in this country.

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Depending on his intended major, your son may be able to complete all the math requirements at community college where it’s typically smaller class size and more help. Pearson MathLab was a small portion of my kids’ math classes at community college. DS19 has to do a statistics for engineering class for his computer science major at his state university, all his other required math classes were done at community college prior to transfer. His statistics class (upper division) was large since it was a requirement for all students in engineering school at the university.

Computer science is his major so it’s a lot of math, that’s why it would be pointless to keep going if all of the math from this point is just Math Lab.  He’s good at the math, he just needs a human teacher not 100% Pearson math lab.   I don’t think anyone would argue that Math Lab is a quality way to educate.  

 

 

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

Solid algebra skills meaning what?  Up to what level?  

As for math sense and good problem solving skills--that's really the crux of the problem with math education in this country.

Right - the push to accelerate kids who are slow in math means they never get a chance to actually reason through a math problem.  They learn to memorize the method long enough to pass a test.  As such, it's a waste of time.

[BusyMom5]

What I see is kids fail to get the basics in elementary and are pushed along anyway.  They have no hope of catching up by middle school.  I strongly believe in tracking starting in in K/1st.  Some kids will pick up on math and learn quickly.  Others need a slower introduction and more repetition.   Our current system of going through each section of a textbook in a prescribed number of school days will not ever work for a lot of students.  They need fewer topics taught to a higher level of mastery and at a slower pace.   Other kids get really bored because the math just seems so simple.  I do believe that this is a brain thing, it doesn't make someone dumb if they need this slower pace.  Sometimes brains just need longer to wrestle with a topic.  

As for high school math, I do think there are some topics that could be dropped in exchange for others.  Drop logs and teach interest rates!  They are basically the same thing.  Reading graphs,  statistics, etc. Are important in all careers as well as just being able to understand the news (particularly economic news).  I do use a lot of Algebra 1 and some Geometry.   I don't use much from Algebra 2, but I do use a lot of finance math.  I can't teach past that.  I try, but I just can't get it.  Unfortunately my twins are at this point and we've been struggling with online options.

Online math sucks!  My boys struggle with inputting the answer more than they struggle with the content.  My older kids ended up taking notes on how to input different types of answers.  Some used Pearson MyMath Lab.  Others are using Aleks from ASU-UL.  I've got one in a stats class this semester and she reports that it's a different software and she's still learning to input the correct answe correctly!  We've done online and in person, but all of them have required all the work to be submitted in the software.   One instructor did go back and give partial points on tests if you solved it correctly on paper- that's at a small CC.  

[Frances]

11 minutes ago, EKS said:

What's interesting is how far do you back off?  I mean, that is really the question.

Calculus shouldn't be a requirement for social workers (which I absolutely agree with, btw).  Should precalculus be?  Algebra 2?  What sort of statistics should they understand?  You can teach statistics pretty qualitatively, which I would say is appropriate for the vast majority of social science majors.  

I could see math through Algebra II plus Statistics as appropriate minimum college prep high school requirements.