IQ "Giftedness"

[Wishes]

I just received my son's (age 6 and a month) neuropsychological report back. He has a GAI SS of 134 due to the discrepancies in his VCI (142) versus PSI (89). He has been given the diagnosis of 2E for ADHD, Dysgraphia, and Dyslexia (plus the IQ of course). 

I am a sped teacher of over 20 years. I feel weird saying this, but that IQ doesn't "match" with what I see of him. I was thinking more in the above average range with a drag down because of processing speed and working memory (which the test did indicate is true). He was a late talker (his first foster home was trilingual but he received Speech services up to 4 with some pronunciation issues). We have been starting actual academics over the summer (just reading and math). Reading is fine. Using two programs LOE and Wired for Reading (which is geared towards Dyslexia). Math is with Rightstart. Numbers have always been a bit more challenging. It took us a while to have him be able to tell us how old he would be on his next birthday. Patterning didn't come instantly to him, and we are still working on subtilizing. I still get answers like "three" when I ask him what number comes after nine. He doesn't particularly excel at puzzles or memory games. In fact, he usually doesn't even want to play with them. 

When I read the description (and I also have experience) with gifted kids...it doesn't match. Has anyone else had that experience?

The neuropsychologist is well-respected. I used him because many of my tutoring clients have used him. I have seen their reports and many of them are like my son's with the ADHD and 2E (this is not totally a surprise since I have a reputation of working well with these types of kiddos). 

 

Edited to add:

My feedback meeting with the neuropsychologist is today at noon (PST) and I'm trying to figure out what I want to ask him. Additionally, my kid's score on the WPPSI-IV in Vocab acquisition was SS114 while the receptive vocab. SS 9 was which was kind of around the range I was expecting

Edited October 3, 2023 by Wishes

[cintinative]

I'm not really competent to answer your questions but I wanted to share that my youngest son has a similar profile (minus dysgraphia, plus anxiety) and I had no idea he was gifted when he was tested because of the ADHD-inattentive and severe processing issue.  I also had no idea he was dyslexic (he was tested in 9th grade)--she called it stealth dyslexia. We since learned he has some language in the brain stuff (have you had any SLP testing done??) so the SLP is not sure he has dyslexia.  When I looked at the profile of kids with his IQ the other day, none of it matched. He was not early on all the things the website said he should be.  But this makes sense to me when I consider he is not only gifted. All that to say, it's complicated, and when you interplay giftedness with other learning challenges it all gets really muddy to me.  

@PeterPan is super knowledgeable about this stuff!

[prairiewindmomma]

Did the evaluator do any dyscalculia testing? Many evaluators don’t or dont pick it up age 6 because subitizing is still in that age appropriate level of developing skills. 

I have three 2E kids, and they all profile very differently. My super spikey kid comes across as low average in many areas…until you sit and talk with them. At age 6 they weren’t talkative enough for that to be apparent. As they have aged and been exposed to more info it’s now obvious that they are gifted.
 

The dysgraphia really messed with the output for a number of years and it does affect some oral expression. Dyscalculia and some visual processing stuff here messed up puzzles, memory stuff, and of course, subitizing, money, and time.

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Wishes said:

I feel weird saying this, but that IQ doesn't "match" with what I see of him.

I have had experience two ways with the same kid.  The first was when he was tested at age 7.  The FSIQ was well below (like 2+ SD below) what I would have expected. I was pretty sure he was gifted for various reasons though he was also struggling with anything language related (which was why he was being tested).  He eventually got diagnosed with dyslexia at age 10 and he had also been diagnosed with vision issues, CAPD, and ADHD along the way.

At age 12 his IQ was tested again and, I kid you not, the GAI almost as high as it could be.  I was stunned as I had been operating under the assumption that it was in the gifted range but not that high.  I asked the psych for the raw scores so that I could see what it would be using extended norms.  That's when I discovered that the psych had made a mistake (multiple mistakes actually) and that his GAI was exactly what I would have guessed if I had to put a number to it (which is weird in itself). 

So, yes, it is possible for an IQ score to be wrong.  Usually it will be wrong in the low direction for obvious reasons (and in my son's case, I hesitate to call it wrong--it described his overall level of functioning at that time).  But it is also possible for the evaluator to make a mistake.  I'd say that it is really unlikely that your son had a string of luck.  You might want to bring up your concerns at the meeting and see what the evaluator makes of it.  I'd let them know that you have experience with special ed/gifted students if they don't know that already since that gives you more experience with these sorts of things than the average parent.

What would be very helpful would be to find out what some of your son's answers were that pushed his score into the gifted range.  Perhaps they would be willing to give you some examples.

[Wishes]

37 minutes ago, cintinative said:

I'm not really competent to answer your questions but I wanted to share that my youngest son has a similar profile (minus dysgraphia, plus anxiety) and I had no idea he was gifted when he was tested because of the ADHD-inattentive and severe processing issue.  I also had no idea he was dyslexic (he was tested in 9th grade)--she called it stealth dyslexia. We since learned he has some language in the brain stuff (have you had any SLP testing done??) so the SLP is not sure he has dyslexia.  When I looked at the profile of kids with his IQ the other day, none of it matched. He was not early on all the things the website said he should be.  But this makes sense to me when I consider he is not only gifted. All that to say, it's complicated, and when you interplay giftedness with other learning challenges it all gets really muddy to me.  

@PeterPan is super knowledgeable about this stuff!

Thanks, cintinative, I appreciate your input. My son did have SLP testing and was in early services. He stopped qualifying (through the school and early education intervention) by the time he was four. He still has some articulation errors.

31 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Did the evaluator do any dyscalculia testing? Many evaluators don’t or dont pick it up age 6 because subitizing is still in that age appropriate level of developing skills. 

I have three 2E kids, and they all profile very differently. My super spikey kid comes across as low average in many areas…until you sit and talk with them. At age 6 they weren’t talkative enough for that to be apparent. As they have aged and been exposed to more info it’s now obvious that they are gifted.
 

The dysgraphia really messed with the output for a number of years and it does affect some oral expression. Dyscalculia and some visual processing stuff here messed up puzzles, memory stuff, and of course, subitizing, money, and time.

Thanks prariewindmomma; that is interesting. He was tested for dyscalculia, but that is one of the questions I have for the evaluator. The Yellow is the sun song with the break down 6 is 5 and 1, 7 is 5 and 2 took us a looong time to learn. He still gets mixed up when I show him items that are more than two (doesn't know at a glance 3 or 4 - although maybe that is impulsivity?

[Wishes]

17 minutes ago, EKS said:

I have had experience two ways with the same kid.  The first was when he was tested at age 7.  The FSIQ was well below (like 2+ SD below) what I would have expected. I was pretty sure he was gifted for various reasons though he was also struggling with anything language related (which was why he was being tested).  He eventually got diagnosed with dyslexia at age 10 and he had also been diagnosed with vision issues, CAPD, and ADHD along the way.

At age 12 his IQ was tested again and, I kid you not, the GAI almost as high as it could be.  I was stunned as I had been operating under the assumption that it was in the gifted range but not that high.  I asked the psych for the raw scores so that I could see what it would be using extended norms.  That's when I discovered that the psych had made a mistake (multiple mistakes actually) and that his GAI was exactly what I would have guessed if I had to put a number to it (which is weird in itself). 

So, yes, it is possible for an IQ score to be wrong.  Usually it will be wrong in the low direction for obvious reasons (and in my son's case, I hesitate to call it wrong--it described his overall level of functioning at that time).  But it is also possible for the evaluator to make a mistake.  I'd say that it is really unlikely that your son had a string of luck.  You might want to bring up your concerns at the meeting and see what the evaluator makes of it.  I'd let them know that you have experience with special ed/gifted students if they don't know that already since that gives you more experience with these sorts of things than the average parent.

What would be very helpful would be to find out what some of your son's answers were that pushed his score into the gifted range.  Perhaps they would be willing to give you some examples.

Thank you EKS. I was thinking about asking for the raw scores and I definitely was curious about seeing some of his answers. I will ask for both.

[prairiewindmomma]

I’d bring some of Ronit Bird’s stuff in to do with your Right Start math and see how he responds. Dots sounds like it might be a good fit. I mixed in the singapore math ten frame a lot also (rainbow resource sells one for under $2 where you visually show the composing and decomposing numbers or you can make your own).

[cintinative]

19 minutes ago, Wishes said:

Thanks, cintinative, I appreciate your input. My son did have SLP testing and was in early services. He stopped qualifying (through the school and early education intervention) by the time he was four. He still has some articulation errors.

 

Just FYI, my son has never had speech articulation problems. The issues are all language in the brain issues, like losing a story in the middle or trouble comparing more abstract concepts. I am not sure what the test process is for a young child because my son was not young when he was tested. But anyway, when i say SLP testing I don't mean only the obvious "speech" elements of that. For example you could look at the TILLS test and what that tests for--that is where most of my son's SLP deficiencies were identified.

[SHP]

 BTDT

I had one of mine retested by someone who works specifically with 2e.  In that report he gives the scores and has an entire paragraph dedicated to explaining how the scores were likely depressed due to the learning disabilities. 

[kbutton]

33 minutes ago, Wishes said:

Thanks, cintinative, I appreciate your input. My son did have SLP testing and was in early services. He stopped qualifying (through the school and early education intervention) by the time he was four. He still has some articulation errors.

I’ll echo cintinative and also mention that it’s not unusual at this age to test as normal on language stuff because there is kind of a hole between what tips red flags earlier and what will tip a red flag later. This is precisely how kids get missed.

At some point, you’ll need a well-timed test with an SLP that specializes in kids with expressive/receptive language issues (preferably one that is good with 2e autism because those people know how to troubleshoot tricky stuff).

9 minutes ago, cintinative said:

Just FYI, my son has never had speech articulation problems. The issues are all language in the brain issues, like losing a story in the middle or trouble comparing more abstract concepts. I am not sure what the test process is for a young child because my son was not young when he was tested. But anyway, when i say SLP testing I don't mean only the obvious "speech" elements of that. For example you could look at the TILLS test and what that tests for--that is where most of my son's SLP deficiencies were identified.

Yep!

I have two with narrow but deep language issues. They were missed for this until their teens—one had speech therapy for articulation where they actively worked in expressive language stuff while doing the articulation. 

2 hours ago, Wishes said:

Edited to add:

My feedback meeting with the neuropsychologist is today at noon (PST) and I'm trying to figure out what I want to ask him. Additionally, my kid's score on the WPPSI-IV in Vocab acquisition was SS114 while the receptive vocab. SS 9 was which was kind of around the range I was expecting

I have on who has a lot of spread inside each grouping of sub tests. His highest and lowest scores in the WISC are both in vocabulary (previously his processing speed was lowest). His evaluator had to use extended norms for his highest vocabulary subtest.

He has a receptive language issue and all of the “dys”es. He had CAPD, but it’s remediated. He does well now in high school with academics (taking some DE) and was already much easier to teach than his brother.

My other one has ASD. He comes across as more globally gifted (profoundly), but he has more academic issues in spite of not having any of the “dys” labels. He has narrow but deep language issues. His early IQ scores had tons of scatter, and he presented as moderately gifted (a surprise to us). After he had vision therapy for convergence and meds for ADHD, then he hit a Davidson qualifying score. While being unable to write a paragraph at age 13. 

Most of the time when I hear that someone seems globally difficult to teach (or seems less gifted) then their IQ suggests, either they have profound LDs/language issues, or they have ASD or both.

I would get a visual development exam (covd.org) and a CAPD evaluation (igaps.org) and another SLP evaluation. Vision can be done now. The others might have to wait until norms catch up in a way that a problem will be evident.

The general principal is that someone can’t fake high scores but they can fail to perform to their potential for a variety of reasons.

[Wishes]

19 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I’ll echo cintinative and also mention that it’s not unusual at this age to test as normal on language stuff because there is kind of a hole between what tips red flags earlier and what will tip a red flag later. This is precisely how kids get missed.

At some point, you’ll need a well-timed test with an SLP that specializes in kids with expressive/receptive language issues (preferably one that is good with 2e autism because those people know how to troubleshoot tricky stuff).

I have two with narrow but deep language issues. They were missed for this until their teens—one had speech therapy for articulation where they actively worked in expressive language stuff while doing the articulation. 

I have on who has a lot of spread inside each grouping of sub tests. His highest and lowest scores in the WISC are both in vocabulary (previously his processing speed was lowest). His evaluator had to use extended norms for his highest vocabulary subtest.

He has a receptive language issue and all of the “dys”es. He had CAPD, but it’s remediated. He does well now in high school with academics (taking some DE) and was already much easier to teach than his brother.

My other one has ASD. He comes across as more globally gifted (profoundly), but he has more academic issues in spite of not having any of the “dys” labels. He has narrow but deep language issues. His early IQ scores had tons of scatter, and he presented as moderately gifted (a surprise to us). After he had vision therapy for convergence and meds for ADHD, then he hit a Davidson qualifying score. While being unable to write a paragraph at age 13. 

Most of the time when I hear that someone seems globally difficult to teach (or seems less gifted) then their IQ suggests, either they have profound LDs/language issues, or they have ASD or both.

I would get a visual development exam (covd.org) and a CAPD evaluation (igaps.org) and another SLP evaluation. Vision can be done now. The others might have to wait until norms catch up in a way that a problem will be evident.

The general principal is that someone can’t fake high scores but they can fail to perform to their potential for a variety of reasons.

Thanks KButton. His original SLP did test him for expressive and receptive language issues and he didn't qualify at the time. However, it was school-based which tends to have a different criteria. I will keep that in mind. 

The interesting thing is...I don't really seem him as dyslexic or dysgraphic. That is my focus of tutoring.  In the reading programs I am using, he's doing fairly well. He has the ability to rhyme, he can recognize initial and middle sounds. He can manipulate sounds. But, he is a beginning reader. We only started over the summer and we focused on the manipulation of sounds so his letter recognition is focused on lower case (and he doesn't know all of them 100%). I also haven't had him write. My focus has just been reading and manipulating words through tiles. So, how much of the dysgraphia is just because...he doesn't write. He belongs to a forest school, he doesn't write there. He has gone to art class once a week, so we have some work with crayons/markers. he doesn't particularly enjoy drawing so he doesn't do it.  Does that mean he doesn't like coloring because he is dysgraphic or he just doesn't like it because he's an active little kid who loves being in the forest and doesn't want to do it? These are questions I'll be asking the evaluator too btw. 

I don't think he faked high scores. I just find it interesting because I have four boys (teens, students of mine), all recently evaluated by the same neuropsychologist (parents have given me their reports), and all have adjusted IQ scores due to high verbal and low processing speed. 2 maybe 3 out of 4 are 2E. It's been kind of fascinating comparing my son's report with theirs. I am curious why the neuropsychologist chose certain subtests and not others (I am going to ask about this as well) and how that has an impact on overall scores.

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Did he run a Beery VMI?

[prairiewindmomma]

Some argue that dysgraphia has different subtypes. I would ask around that a bit. My dysgraphic kid has no aspects of the lexical or phonological dysgraphia, motor wasn’t impaired much with re: to handwriting, but the spatial aspect was super obvious….hence why I asked about the Beery.
 

 

[Wishes]

It doesn't look like it from the paperwork. I will ask about this.

[SKL]

I had one of my kids tested, and it also didn't match what I saw.  It made me lose a lot of respect / confidence related to the WISC-R.

[Terabith]

I have a 2e kid who scored much higher than I expected on visual spatial areas.  I knew she was gifted, but I was surprised by some of the strengths.  She does have areas that I feel like have never really been addressed to the extent I wish they would have, but she is much more functional and successful than I expected when she was under 10.  

[Clemsondana]

I'll throw out there that one of my kids comes across as smarter than the other.  One loves to learn and is always perceived as very intelligent.  The 'more normal' kid had an IQ test as part of a test for learning challenges because kid got so frustrated with schoolwork.  It turns out that kid is extremely gifted, has some ADHD issues, and has a very low frustration tolerance.  This kid really doesn't enjoy learning, doesn't like puzzles, and doesn't like anything challenging enough to potentially be frustrating.  Despite what are likely comparable levels of ability, there will likely be different levels of knowledge and achievement because the kids gravitate towards different things.  I could easily imagine that a smart kid who doesn't like stereotypical 'smart kid' things like puzzles wouldn't be perceived as a 'gifted' kid.  In our case, this kid actively fought learning to read and, despite having gone to a little 1/2 day church preschool where the kids learned their ABC and numbers, when we started kindergarten kiddo insisted that they had no idea what the different numbers were when I opened the math workbook.  As a toddler kid refused to go into the 2 year old nursery after turning 3 because it said 2 year olds on the door, but at age 5 claimed that they couldn't recognize any numbers at all.  But, kid is capable of impressive insights and learns very quickly...when they want to learn.  The ADHD-related issues and personal preferences really mask a lot, and I could imagine that other issues do, too.  

[Ausmumof3]

5 hours ago, Wishes said:

Thanks KButton. His original SLP did test him for expressive and receptive language issues and he didn't qualify at the time. However, it was school-based which tends to have a different criteria. I will keep that in mind. 

The interesting thing is...I don't really seem him as dyslexic or dysgraphic. That is my focus of tutoring.  In the reading programs I am using, he's doing fairly well. He has the ability to rhyme, he can recognize initial and middle sounds. He can manipulate sounds. But, he is a beginning reader. We only started over the summer and we focused on the manipulation of sounds so his letter recognition is focused on lower case (and he doesn't know all of them 100%). I also haven't had him write. My focus has just been reading and manipulating words through tiles. So, how much of the dysgraphia is just because...he doesn't write. He belongs to a forest school, he doesn't write there. He has gone to art class once a week, so we have some work with crayons/markers. he doesn't particularly enjoy drawing so he doesn't do it.  Does that mean he doesn't like coloring because he is dysgraphic or he just doesn't like it because he's an active little kid who loves being in the forest and doesn't want to do it? These are questions I'll be asking the evaluator too btw. 

I don't think he faked high scores. I just find it interesting because I have four boys (teens, students of mine), all recently evaluated by the same neuropsychologist (parents have given me their reports), and all have adjusted IQ scores due to high verbal and low processing speed. 2 maybe 3 out of 4 are 2E. It's been kind of fascinating comparing my son's report with theirs. I am curious why the neuropsychologist chose certain subtests and not others (I am going to ask about this as well) and how that has an impact on overall scores.

 

We had a student at tutoring who was there for dyslexia type stuff but didn’t test as dyslexic. We think its because he’d had so much intervention on the early dyslexia stuff that it no longer shows up in testing but when he gets to other language areas it will still be an issue if that makes sense?

I wonder if your experience as a special ed teacher means you’ve instinctively remediated some of that stuff well enough that it doesn’t show in testing but the underlying tendencies still exist?

[Ausmumof3]

I have also seen one kid who was very smart come in with a low score but he was super intolerant of anything he thought was stupid so I suspect he blew the testing off and just didn’t try at all?

[regentrude]

I have two gifted kids with almost identical IQs. For one of them, it was impossible for strangers not to notice after even a brief conversation. The other was a total minimalist, never did more than what was required, did not show any academic interests - so much that I spoke with the 1st grade teacher because I was concerned that my experiences with oldest would make me have unrealistic expectations for younger kid. The very experienced older teacher laughed and told me, no, the kid is super smart but shows only a third of what he is capable of. And she was correct. Testing revealed, yep, gifted.

It became evident much later, in the teens, and certainly as a college student. But in elementary, he was hiding it very well. 
(No 2E issues here at play)

[Wishes]

Thanks everyone. It really helps to hear everyone's stories. Feedback meeting was helpful. I was able to see some of the visual puzzles that he could figure out. Very cool.  The neuropsychologist said he did repeat directions for each item because he said the ADHD would have been in the way of his performance. 

Prariewindmomma - he did have the Beery and his VMI and motor coordination were low while his visual perception was quite high.

Ausmom, my remediation is probably part of it. Also below:

When I was driving home I was thinking that maybe the reason I was still banging my head against the wall was that I was still thinking about him being in the "average range" in relation to his reading and writing. If he was, the writing and reading gap  would be minimal. But, I suppose if he didn't have dyslexia and dysgraphia, he might have taught himself to read by now.

[regentrude]

13 minutes ago, Wishes said:

When I was driving home I was thinking that maybe the reason I was still banging my head against the wall was that I was still thinking about him being in the "average range" in relation to his reading and writing. If he was, the writing and reading gap  would be minimal. But, I suppose if he didn't have dyslexia and dysgraphia, he might have taught himself to read by now.

Or not. Being gifted does not mean that the kid must necessarily have an interest in reading and writing.

My DD devoured chapter books with hundreds of pages at age 5.
He brother with almost identical IQ only began reading for pleasure at age 8, and those were short books with lots of short snippets. He just wasn't into reading until he was much older.

Just because they can doesn't mean they do.

Edited October 3, 2023 by regentrude

[Wishes]

27 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Or not. Being gifted does not mean that the kid must necessarily have an interest in reading and writing.

My DD devoured chapter books with hundreds of pages at age 5.
He brother with almost identical IQ only began reading for pleasure at age 8, and those were short books with lots of short snippets. He just wasn't into reading until he was much older.

Just because they can doesn't mean they do.

That’s absolutely true. I was just thinking that because his reading and writing skills aren’t significantly below average, I wasn’t thinking of him as dyslexic or dysgraphic. But if I look at in the range of a gifted IQ, his reading and writing skills are significantly lower than they should be (thus highlighting in the disabilities).

[kbutton]

7 hours ago, Wishes said:

Thanks KButton. His original SLP did test him for expressive and receptive language issues and he didn't qualify at the time. However, it was school-based which tends to have a different criteria. I will keep that in mind. 

I think the tests don’t have a threshold that catches gifted kids at early ages, and I think that is more pronounced than at some ages than others if that makes sense.

6 minutes ago, Wishes said:

That’s absolutely true. I was just thinking that because his reading and writing skills aren’t significantly below average, I wasn’t thinking of him as dyslexic or dysgraphic. But if I look at in the range of a gifted IQ, his reading and writing skills are significantly lower than they should be (thus highlighting in the disabilities).

That is typical for 2e kids.

I’ll also note that no intervention people picked up on either of my kids’ language issues until they were teens. Lots of experience among them. It took an ABA person to notice, and then she proceeded to still blame him when her scaffolding was not enough (he had to go waaayyy back to basics for one or two tiny issues).

And ditto on the idea of remediation plus giftedness masking reading difficulties.

Dysgraphia is often a chicken and egg thing—they definitely don’t like to write if it’s difficult!

You might look into retained primitive reflexes. That can cause a disconnect in motor integration with good visual skills and can also make writing difficult.

It’s also worth making sure the writing difficulties are not from hypermobility. If so, then it will take more time for coordination to stabilize because tissues are loosely gooses. It can also make it so that reflexes don’t completely integrate (but they can improv greatly).

[Terabith]

Yes, I knew my youngest was developing in an atypical way by age 2 and I knew by age 4 that there was some kind of learning disability.  But it took till 7 to get anyone to agree, despite fairly comprehensive testing at ages 3 and 5 as well because the norms were so broad and because we did so much remediation as part of daily life.  In arguing for an ISP (IEP for home/ private school), I absolutely did use the gap between GAI and achievement.  They couldn’t use that as a justification but it was considered and factored into granting it.  On the other hand, her reading caught up and was above grade level by age 9 and she stayed above average in reading consistently.  We were never able to remediate spelling but she’s a functional 18 year old now.  

Edited October 4, 2023 by Terabith

[Corraleno]

I have a 2E kid with very similar stats and diagnoses. Keep in mind that there are different types of dyslexia, and the form often referred to as "stealth dyslexia" often has more to do with being a 3D visual processor than any issue with phonetics. This type of dyslexia seems to be common in the 2E "package" that includes ADHD, slow processing speed, and poor working memory.

That is the case with DS — he thinks in 3D moving images, not words, so all reading tasks basically involve translating between the language people write in and the "language" he thinks in.  That was not an issue when he was learning "The cat sat on a mat" because it was easy to associate "cat" and "mat" with simple images, but it got a lot harder as he learned more abstract words and had to read longer sentences. Grades 2-5ish were definitely the worst, because the words get harder but the stories are still pretty boring, so there is a lot of frustration with little reward. Once he was really motivated (by wanting to learn Greek and read Greek history and mythology), his reading caught up, although it took a lot of hard work and he was (and still is) an extremely slow reader.

People with this type of dyslexia & ADD generally do not process and "file" information in the same way as more linear/logical/verbal processors — DS once described it to me as feeling like the facts he had to memorize, like spelling words and times tables, were on little scraps of paper scattered on the floor of his brain and whenever he needed to retrieve a fact a little man had to run all over frantically turning over all the scraps to find the right one.  It's an extremely slow inefficient process — and super stressful when there's a test or time pressure. DS has excelled in college (currently in grad school), but he will never be a good speller or able to quickly recall math facts. OTOH, people who process information this way tend to be really good at having original insights and making novel connections precisely because they tend to store information in messy "webs" instead of compartmentalized in separate "files."

 

[prairiewindmomma]

58 minutes ago, Wishes said:

That’s absolutely true. I was just thinking that because his reading and writing skills aren’t significantly below average, I wasn’t thinking of him as dyslexic or dysgraphic. But if I look at in the range of a gifted IQ, his reading and writing skills are significantly lower than they should be (thus highlighting in the disabilities).

Yup. Honestly, I am super glad to hear he loves forest school. It’s so important to find something that makes your heart sing when you have to put so much work into everything else. Your son sounds like he is in great hands and I wish you both all of the best in your homeschooling journey together. ❤️

[cintinative]

17 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I have a 2E kid with very similar stats and diagnoses. Keep in mind that there are different types of dyslexia, and the form often referred to as "stealth dyslexia" often has more to do with being a 3D visual processor than any issue with phonetics. This type of dyslexia seems to be common in the 2E "package" that includes ADHD, slow processing speed, and poor working memory.

That is the case with DS — he thinks in 3D moving images, not words, so all reading tasks basically involve translating between the language people write in and the "language" he thinks in.  

People with this type of dyslexia & ADD generally do not process and "file" information in the same way as more linear/logical/verbal processors — DS once described it to me as feeling like the facts he had to memorize, like spelling words and times tables, were on little scraps of paper scattered on the floor of his brain and whenever he needed to retrieve a fact a little man had to run all over frantically turning over all the scraps to find the right one.  It's an extremely slow inefficient process — and super stressful when there's a test or time pressure. DS has excelled in college (currently in grad school), but he will never be a good speller or able to quickly recall math facts. OTOH, people who process information this way tend to be really good at having original insights and making novel connections precisely because they tend to store information in messy "webs" instead of compartmentalized in separate "files."

 

Wow, this is so much like my son!! Almost all of it!  And the SLP is using visual-spatial techniques to work with him on language formulation. I think you might have PM'd me before (eta: can't find it) but what was your DS' major? Mine is interested in going into design (Graphic design, 3D design, etc.).  And are there any good websites/resources you have found for this kind of learner? Mine is 16 so we are really late in the game, but I would love any resources you can throw my way.

Edited October 4, 2023 by cintinative

[kbutton]

29 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

OTOH, people who process information this way tend to be really good at having original insights and making novel connections precisely because they tend to store information in messy "webs" instead of compartmentalized in separate "files."

My older DS doesn’t have a dyslexia diagnosis, but his math facts were stored relationally at that age (8 + 8=16, so 9 + 9 means you add a 1 to each 8 to get 18) and via math sense vs. something he could retrieve easily. Following those mental breadcrumbs takes longer but sticks better for him. He calculated precisely unless it was a timed test. For a timed test, he had to guess. 

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

Wow, this is so much like my son!! Almost all of it!  And the SLP is using visual-spatial techniques to work with him on language formulation. I think you might have PM'd me before (eta: can't find it) but what was your DS' major? Mine is interested in going into design (Graphic design, 3D design, etc.).  And are there any good websites/resources you have found for this kind of learner? Mine is 16 so we are really late in the game, but I would love any resources you can throw my way.

His major is linguistics. When he got really motivated to learn Ancient Greek, I first put him in Lukeion's grammar class (The Barbarian Diagrammarian), which is absolutely brilliant because it teaches grammar using very visual, color-coded charts plus very funny, memorable images, and DS just instantly "got it" in a way that totally changed how he thought about language. 

I highly recommend The Dyslexic Advantage by Drs. Brock and Fernette Eide. They discuss in detail not only the ways in which dyslexic brains are wired differently, but all the advantages that come with those wiring differences — advantages which unfortunately are not recognized or valued in traditional educational systems.

[cintinative]

As I was googling last night, I found this dissertation on stealth dyslexia that compared the test profile of students with stealth dyslexia (gifted with dyslexia) with those with giftedness only and those with dyslexia only. I know I am a nerd, but maybe someone else would want to see this?

https://digscholarship.unco.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1844&context=dissertations

[SFisher]

I have a 2E kid - gifted with a strength in visual spatial & verbal,  written expression disorder, working memory deficit, writing fluency deficit. High achievement in math & reading. 

I have had no one “get” him right away. If he’s in a supportive environment, some people warm up to him and see his strengths and personality. I suspect that most adults that come across him think he has adhd or a behavioral problem. He’s also small for his age, so they assume he’s younger. Because people don’t understand him, they sometimes treat him as incapable, younger than he is, and like a “problem”, assume he’s not paying attention and are not respectful to him. When a kid isn’t treated respectfully, it can make them behave differently.

He tends to not like his same age peers, but they generally like him. They think he’s a little wild, funny. Kids know he is smart.

The things that make him seem gifted are generally hidden at school. He’s a beautiful speaker… no one wants him to talk for any extended period of time at school. He’s good at building things and that generally has no place in school, aside from an occasional project with low expectations. He “tinkers” intelligently with everything, and that is definitely not acceptable at school. He is advanced in reading and math and for the most part, he’s only being assessed on grade level instruction. Because of written expression disorder and mildly slow writing fluency, his written output doesn’t demonstrate his advanced understanding (yet).

You probably have experience working with gifted kids who are more easily identifiable. Kids whose gifts make them good students. 

I have another son who’s also identified gifted. I haven’t had as much testing on him because he’s younger and is a better fit for school. He has high reading ability and my guess his biggest strength is visual spatial too. He is talented at drawing, and visually expressing stories through plays, puppet shows, stop motion, etc. When he was in first grade, I took him to a school Expo, where advanced students were demonstrating things they’ve learned. A fifth grader had a robot that kids could program, he took the programming controls and just sat down and intuitively programmed the robot to do what he wanted it to do without any instruction or prior experience. He also has tremendous social skills… can maintain friendships with an all kinds of kids, he wins over teachers, bus drivers, coaches, etc. It has been and probably will continue to be easier to have his needs met at school and in the community.

If you can start to identify your kid’s strengths, then you can put him in environments where he uses those strengths, you might have a totally different impression. It will also help the child create a positive self image.

I will also say that my 2e kid thrives in mixed age groups. He really stands out in a same age peer group and he probably is very aware of that. But in diverse groups, his strengths really shine. And I’m talking really diverse…. like babies to adults, broad spectrum of neuro diversity, etc. 

With the testing, I would ask further about dysgraphia. It’s my understanding that dysgraphia can only be diagnosed if the child struggles with writing “despite exposure to adequate instruction”. So if this child is only beginning formal schooling, I’m doubting he’s had adequate instruction in writing just yet. It doesn’t mean to brush that aside, but dig in further. A psych report would be approaching things from the cognitive perspective… you can also gather information from OT that would be more about the physical aspects:  strength, motor control, sensory, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

[Wishes]

On 10/4/2023 at 4:54 AM, cintinative said:

As I was googling last night, I found this dissertation on stealth dyslexia that compared the test profile of students with stealth dyslexia (gifted with dyslexia) with those with giftedness only and those with dyslexia only. I know I am a nerd, but maybe someone else would want to see this?

https://digscholarship.unco.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1844&context=dissertations

I am still trying to work through this article cintinative. It has been really busy, but the first few pages have been interesting.

6 hours ago, SFisher said:

I have a 2E kid - gifted with a strength in visual spatial & verbal,  written expression disorder, working memory deficit, writing fluency deficit. High achievement in math & reading. 

I have had no one “get” him right away. If he’s in a supportive environment, some people warm up to him and see his strengths and personality. I suspect that most adults that come across him think he has adhd or a behavioral problem. He’s also small for his age, so they assume he’s younger. Because people don’t understand him, they sometimes treat him as incapable, younger than he is, and like a “problem”, assume he’s not paying attention and are not respectful to him. When a kid isn’t treated respectfully, it can make them behave differently.

He tends to not like his same age peers, but they generally like him. They think he’s a little wild, funny. Kids know he is smart.

The things that make him seem gifted are generally hidden at school. He’s a beautiful speaker… no one wants him to talk for any extended period of time at school. He’s good at building things and that generally has no place in school, aside from an occasional project with low expectations. He “tinkers” intelligently with everything, and that is definitely not acceptable at school. He is advanced in reading and math and for the most part, he’s only being assessed on grade level instruction. Because of written expression disorder and mildly slow writing fluency, his written output doesn’t demonstrate his advanced understanding (yet).

You probably have experience working with gifted kids who are more easily identifiable. Kids whose gifts make them good students. 

I have another son who’s also identified gifted. I haven’t had as much testing on him because he’s younger and is a better fit for school. He has high reading ability and my guess his biggest strength is visual spatial too. He is talented at drawing, and visually expressing stories through plays, puppet shows, stop motion, etc. When he was in first grade, I took him to a school Expo, where advanced students were demonstrating things they’ve learned. A fifth grader had a robot that kids could program, he took the programming controls and just sat down and intuitively programmed the robot to do what he wanted it to do without any instruction or prior experience. He also has tremendous social skills… can maintain friendships with an all kinds of kids, he wins over teachers, bus drivers, coaches, etc. It has been and probably will continue to be easier to have his needs met at school and in the community.

If you can start to identify your kid’s strengths, then you can put him in environments where he uses those strengths, you might have a totally different impression. It will also help the child create a positive self image.

I will also say that my 2e kid thrives in mixed age groups. He really stands out in a same age peer group and he probably is very aware of that. But in diverse groups, his strengths really shine. And I’m talking really diverse…. like babies to adults, broad spectrum of neuro diversity, etc. 

With the testing, I would ask further about dysgraphia. It’s my understanding that dysgraphia can only be diagnosed if the child struggles with writing “despite exposure to adequate instruction”. So if this child is only beginning formal schooling, I’m doubting he’s had adequate instruction in writing just yet. It doesn’t mean to brush that aside, but dig in further. A psych report would be approaching things from the cognitive perspective… you can also gather information from OT that would be more about the physical aspects:  strength, motor control, sensory, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks SFisher, my experience with gifted kids is primarily kids with behavioral issues, so that’s not quite the issue. However, the bulk of my teaching experience has been with grades 3-10 so that probably affects my views.

 I hope my focus in explaining my confusion hasn’t conveyed that I don’t see his strengths. He is wonderfully social with all ages. He is curious about everything and loves to watch plumbers, handypersons, construction workers, etc. (he covets their tools too). He is s sweet and empathetic. He always the one to ask how people are doing. He is sensitive. 
His processing speed and working memory make academics really challenging. 
we have been working on figuring out what numbers come before and after others. A typical session is like this.

me: Ok, so you see the three. You need to see if your cards show a number before or after the number. What number comes right before 3.

DS: (immediately) 8

Me: (knowing he impulsively answers): Ok, deep breath. Let’s give our brains a minute to catch up. What number comes before 3?

DS: 6

Me: You are 6 now. Are you bigger now or when you were 3. 
DS:now

Me: so is 3 bigger or smaller than 6

DS: Smaller

Me: ok, so 6 can’t come before 3, right? What number comes before 3?

Ds: 1

me: that absolutely does come before 3. But what number comes right before 3?

DS: 7

me: ok, let’s count

DS: 1-2-3-4

Me: ok, stop. What number did you say right before 3?

DS: 2!

Then we have to do the same thing with a number that comes after three. This is how it is most of the time. Then one day he might be able to get several numbers right in a row (mostly after). It. Is. a process

The two are correlations that he did well and vocabulary were interesting. I’ve tried to have him do similar questions with me. I asked him what was the same about dogs and horses. He kept giving me answers that showed differences. Finally, he came up with they both have tails. I am curious about the tester whether he did what I did which I say that’s a difference but not a similarity can you tell me what’s the same? I wonder what the procedure is for those types of questions and whether they’re allowed to just keep saying that’s a difference not a similarity, and not marked it as incorrect  on the WISC-5. I suppose I’m not interested in the variance allowed by the tester. Whether some make allowances for impulsivity and attention, while others don’t.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Wishes

[Lecka]

I will be honest.

He has shown he understands “3 is less than 6” with a concrete example.

 

He has shown it’s effective for you to prompt him by saying “count 1 through 6, now tell me what number comes before 3.”  
 

It seems like you have an effective way to prompt him.  It might be a memory type of issue, he might need to do this a lot of times.  Even while showing understanding of the concepts.  Understanding the concepts, and having memorized things that would seem “so easy” is something I have read can be an issue with dyslexia.  They can do better with more complex concepts but the easy stuff os harder. 
 

I would also say, pull out a number line or tens chart (I mean 1-100 written in boxes).  These are good visual ways to work on these patterns.  
 

You could even do “put a counter on three, what number comes before three?”  That might be too easy, but might not.  
 

Just some ideas.

 

I realize — you just gave an example!!!!! Not like you don’t use other methods.  
 

I honestly have gotten a lot of help by giving an example like this and seeing what specific things people say.  
 

 

[SFisher]

Hey,

I do think you see his strengths as a whole child, I’m not doubting you & I can tell you’re committed to helping him. I think I was trying to say, you may not see the giftedness in all situations and environments. For example, my son struggles with writing. If I can separate the writing from the academic task, he’s a whole different person. He struggles with working memory, if I give written directions and don’t rely on his working memory, he’s a different person. It took a long time to figure this out.

I’m no expert, but I have some ideas and you can see if any are helpful 

I would try to tease out what is going on by breaking it down further. I would also make math visual and physical. I don’t know his whole profile… but things like counters, unit blocks, number lines, etc may make a big difference. 

The terms Before and after in math are a bit confusing…  numbers represent quantities. Before and after have to do with time. (My mathy kid would probably have a field day telling you that the numbers can be in different orders… 531. Is 3 before 1? )

Is 3 more than 2? Is 1 less than 5? Is more clear.

I think there are a few possibilities…

he is missing basic concepts. He doesn’t know the quantities. He doesn’t know the symbols that represent the quantities. He doesn’t know the sequence of numbers. That’s what you would work on.

or… 

He is listening very closely to your language. “What comes before 3” and “what comes before 3 when you count” and what is one less than 3” are different questions.

or

It’s also possible that what you’re asking him is way too easy and he’s messing with you. This is what preschool/kindergarten was like with my son. If he thought it was unchallenging he would just not do it or say the wrong answer. When he was little it was harder to tell why he would do this, now I know he’s joking/playing. Another example would be when he took an online writing class: the teacher explained good sentences start with a capital, end with punctuation and have finger spaces. Then he proceeded to write “sentences” that followed all of those rules, but we’re not sentences “The dog.” He knew there was more to writing a sentence…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

https://www.ronitbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/gfindsmaller.pdf
 

This game might be fun to try. He has subitizing issues. You are trying to be abstract (think of a number smaller than) when he is still concrete in his understanding.

[Lecka]

Another idea is to memorize “counting down from 10.”  Or practice “counting down from 10” in general.  Practice “counting down from 10” before asking questions like this, it’s like a reminder.