What to do: dc's disillusionment about value of college (programming related)

[cintinative]

My oldest (senior) is taking four dual enrollment classes in information technology at the local U. Last year he took comp and two IT courses.

Overall he feels disillusioned.  Course quality has in some cases been an issue.  Also, he feels like he is not getting much depth and when he looks forward to the rest of the course progression, he is not seeing a whole lot more depth there either.  He feels like he could watch youtube (or do linkedin learning or coursera) and get the same level of knowledge.

I tried to tell him that there will be some specialization that comes later (all of these courses he has taken/is taking are first year courses so they are IT gen ed if you get my meaning), but also that some of that depth comes through working in the field. I told him my senior year we had field-related classes like air pollution control (I was in environmental engineering major) but there are tons of specialties that flow out of that and it was impossible for them to prepare us for all of them. Part of the purpose of college was to teach us how to think.  

I think he was most discouraged when I showed him a summer internship listing for software engineering that was local and he noted that there were multiple languages and skills listed that they expected the applicants to know that were not in the sequence of any program we had applied to (including two software engineering programs).  He was wondering how he was supposed to come by this knowledge when it was not taught at the universities.  I told him that now that he knows C#, Java, and Python, he should be able to pick up other languages without a ton of issues.  

After telling me that he thought he could self-teach himself everything, and I told him most companies want degrees, he did some researching and discovered I was right--they all want degrees. So now he feels stuck and frustrated.  

Would it be inappropriate to have my son talk to someone in the IT department at the current university about his concerns? Maybe they would be able to give him the broader picture and help reassure him that these intro courses are not a waste?  Would that hurt us if he had applied to this university?  How would you approach such a conversation?  Should he have this conversation with the other schools as well? He was already accepted to a software engineering program at another school. 

ETA: Adding this info in case it is helpful.  

• For School A, he would get an B.S. IT degree in Software Application Development with an additional certificate in Software Engineering (from the CS department)--this is his dual enrollment school
• For School B, he would get a BS in Software Engineering (underneath Computer Science)
• For School C, he would get a BS in Software Engineering (underneath Computer Science)

 

Thanks in advance for your wisdom Hive!

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by cintinative

[chiguirre]

Is he studying IT or computer science or software engineering? There are massive differences between these majors. There is also a noticeable difference between CS programs that prepare students for graduate school vs. terminal BS degrees. 

FSU has an explainer about the differences in their CS degrees.

https://www.cs.fsu.edu/academics/undergraduate-programs/differences-between-the-bs-and-ba-in-computer-science/

[cintinative]

19 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Is he studying IT or computer science or software engineering? There are massive differences between these majors. There is also a noticeable difference between CS programs that prepare students for graduate school vs. terminal BS degrees. 

FSU has an explainer about the differences in their CS degrees.

https://www.cs.fsu.edu/academics/undergraduate-programs/differences-between-the-bs-and-ba-in-computer-science/

For School A, he would get a B.S. in Information Technology, focus of Software Application Development with an additional certificate in Software Engineering (from the CS department)--this is his dual enrollment school

For School B, he would get a BS in Software Engineering (underneath Computer Science)

For School C, he would get a BS in Software Engineering (underneath Computer Science)

Edited October 2, 2023 by cintinative

[bibiche]

Re talking to someone at the university and the effect it would have on his application: faculty have no input at all regarding admissions at the undergrad level, so he shouldn’t worry about that.

[catz]

Does he use reddit?  Digging around in the r/csMajors board might give him a better sense of how hiring goes.  Things are a bit rough right now for CS grads.  Talking to a placement office or profs at a school of interest should be no problem and would be highly unlikely to effect admissions.  

I do think it isn't uncommon for smart but immature kids like this to think they're above the hoop jumping.  But college is more than just learning tech skills.  It's also about maturing and learning soft skills like communication, team work, organization, networking and connections, etc.   Any whiff of "know it all" can be problematic during a hiring process.  I also think deep conceptual understanding of CS concepts needs some time for most.  It isn't surprising that a couple IT classes might feel shallow though or a intro class for a kid that has done some programming might not feel super gratifying.

My kid is starting a job this week and definitely did not have experience with all the languages and tools used.  As someone who has a CS degree, if you know one language, jumping to another and applying the concepts is rarely a big stretch.

Edited October 2, 2023 by catz

[regentrude]

Depending on the school, "IT" may be a not very challenging major, and the level of coursework may remain low. If he wants to learn programming, he needs to take a programming course which may be offered through the computer science department. 
(ETA: An indicator for a low level of coursework is a low level of math requirements for the degree. If the major doesn't require several semesters of calculus, I would not expect particularly rigorous coursework in any other class either.)

He should look at the four-year degree plan of that IT department to see which courses will be required for the major. It may be that he has the wrong expectation what the major entails. He should make an appointment to speak with the department head or academic advisor, whoever it is that does the outreach for prospective students. (It won't have any bearing on his college admission; the academic departments have no say in admissions decisions).

It sounds like he is actually more interested in computer science. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Also: software application development is NOT the same thing as software development.
Application development has more to do with interface design than with  programming of the actual software.

What exactly is it that he wants to do?

Edited October 2, 2023 by regentrude

[regentrude]

For a comparison, I looked for an example an "IT: Software Application development" and a "Computer Science" degree from the same school and found this on. One look at these two degree maps shows how fundamentally different they are in rigor and course requirements. 

https://webapps2.uc.edu/ecurriculum/DegreePrograms/home/MajorMap/6389

https://webapps2.uc.edu/ecurriculum/DegreePrograms/Home/MajorMap/7262

It sounds like he's in the wrong department for his expectations.

[cintinative]

He wants to do software engineering.

What we have heard, and what UC claims on their own materials (when we visited), is that computer science there has far more theory whereas the software app development degree is more practical.  My son is really not interested in theory. He wants to code or manage those who code.  The CS degree only learns C++ and Python. Based on student reports, the CS degree has very little coding.  The software development degree learns Java, Python and C++.  

This is a discussion of software engineering (versus software development) from Coursera:

"Software developers design specific computer systems and application software. Software engineers work on a larger scale to design, develop, and test entire computer systems and application software for a company or organization—software development is a subset of software engineering."

[Miguelsmom]

If he just wants a degree and can learn it on his own look into Western governors University. Undergraduate school was not hard for my child. They were very excited when they got to graduate school and had a 25 page final. Only to find out it was a group project and she was only responsible for 3-5 pages. She transferred schools because she felt that was lazy to WGU that each class is test based or project based. She's no longer interested in WGU not because the workload is too easy but she wants human connection. She's no longer excited about the work. So she's going to try in person and see how that works out. I know it's not the work that is getting to her because she carries a 3.0+ GPA. My thoughts are if you're not interested or can't afford college life the quickest most affordable way to a degree in a field you want is the best way. If he just wants to check a box let him and have him do a co-op while in school. It's not that I feel there's no value in college but there are other ways to get credentials needed especially in the tech field. 

[Clarita]

On 10/2/2023 at 2:37 PM, cintinative said:

He wants to do software engineering.

What we have heard, and what UC claims on their own materials (when we visited), is that computer science there has far more theory whereas the software app development degree is more practical.  My son is really not interested in theory. He wants to code or manage those who code.  The CS degree only learns C++ and Python. Based on student reports, the CS degree has very little coding.  The software development degree learns Java, Python and C++.  

This is a discussion of software engineering (versus software development) from Coursera:

"Software developers design specific computer systems and application software. Software engineers work on a larger scale to design, develop, and test entire computer systems and application software for a company or organization—software development is a subset of software engineering."

So, DH has a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science and "app development" is basically what he does for a living. His assessment is CS should have a lot of theory and the programming is a part of that. The theories are going to be the algorithms that you can use to figure out how to architect or write a program. The software languages are just that the languages that you use to achieve that. 

Both majors can end up with jobs coding and managing those who code, but my husband thinks the CS degree gives you the skills to be the architect and designer.

On 10/2/2023 at 6:00 AM, cintinative said:

Would it be inappropriate to have my son talk to someone in the IT department at the current university about his concerns? Maybe they would be able to give him the broader picture and help reassure him that these intro courses are not a waste?  Would that hurt us if he had applied to this university?  How would you approach such a conversation?  Should he have this conversation with the other schools as well? He was already accepted to a software engineering program at another school. 

If my husband or I were to have a personal conversation with your son, if he can handle the course work go for Computer Science. You wouldn't talk to someone in the IT department, your son wants to be a software engineer; those are very different. 

When I was a teenager looking into engineering I viewed "theory" as research and "practical" as design. That is not true. "Theory" teaches you how to be the designer/inventor and "practical" teaches you to be the implementer/doer.  The real cutting edge of the science and math are done by mathematicians and scientists, Engineering is already taking that research and asking what can we do with this knowledge.

Intro courses can sometimes be "a waste" or a review of what you may already know. They have to put those in because they need to get everyone to the same level before they can give you more. The courses past the intro shouldn't be a waste. I would look past the intro courses to what he could learn towards the end of his 4 years there.

[Shoeless]

On 10/2/2023 at 8:00 AM, cintinative said:

He was wondering how he was supposed to come by this knowledge when it was not taught at the universities.  I told him that now that he knows C#, Java, and Python, he should be able to pick up other languages without a ton of issues.  

The companies expect he'll learn some of this on his own.  If he knows 3 languages, he'll be able to learn others pretty easily. 

That's kind of how this field is; you'll get some formal training opportunities at jobs, but there's a lot of expectation that you will do some learning on your own.  Also, job postings will say "The idea candidate will have experience with..." and list every possible software package, language, platform, etc known to man. Apply anyway, even if your skills don't match up exactly.  It's not hard to pick up new coding languages. 

I no longer work in software development, but my husband is a Linux engineer that has transitioned over to AWS architecture. 

[Arcadia]

On 10/2/2023 at 6:00 AM, cintinative said:

Course quality has in some cases been an issue.  Also, he feels like he is not getting much depth and when he looks forward to the rest of the course progression, he is not seeing a whole lot more depth there either.  He feels like he could watch youtube (or do linkedin learning or coursera) and get the same level of knowledge.

He should get involved in GitHub or similar. That’s where he put what he learn from classes, YouTube, Coursera, Udemy to use. Lower division classes feel like teasers. Its up to the students how much more they learn. For example, my community college CS classmates would ask more in depth questions to the lecturers to learn more.

On 10/3/2023 at 6:07 PM, Clarita said:

Intro courses can sometimes be "a waste" or a review of what you may already know. They have to put those in because they need to get everyone to the same level before they can give you more.

The lower division courses are great for GPAs. 

[rzberrymom]

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I kind of, maybe agree with your kiddo. I’ve wondered how in the world universities are keeping up with the changes going on in CS right now, with all the upheaval and progress AI is bringing. Everything is changing so so fast!!

And I don’t buy that these professors are able to keep up. My DH is an engineering professor, and he has to train his students in Matlab, Python, Excel, etc. as part of that—with all the other pressures (publish or perish, department meetings, office hours, editing journal articles, politics, etc.), there’s NO WAY he can keep up with all the changes happening with regards to programming. Things are changing weekly!

So, if I were a really smart kid with tons of coding experience, I may be tempted to do a coding boot camp and just try to go for it. Even a year ago, I never would have thought that. But for the right kid, it feels to me like things are evolving too quickly to waste time on a 4 year degree right now. 🤷‍♀️

I am super risk averse, so this is out of character for me.

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, rzberrymom said:

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I kind of, maybe agree with your kiddo. I’ve wondered how in the world universities are keeping up with the changes going on in CS right now, with all the upheaval and progress AI is bringing. Everything is changing so so fast!!

And I don’t buy that these professors are able to keep up. My DH is an engineering professor, and he has to train his students in Matlab, Python, Excel, etc. as part of that—with all the other pressures (publish or perish, department meetings, office hours, editing journal articles, politics, etc.), there’s NO WAY he can keep up with all the changes happening with regards to programming. Things are changing weekly!

So, if I were a really smart kid with tons of coding experience, I may be tempted to do a coding boot camp and just try to go for it. Even a year ago, I never would have thought that. But for the right kid, it feels to me like things are evolving too quickly to waste time on a 4 year degree right now. 🤷‍♀️

I am super risk averse, so this is out of character for me.

To piggyback off this, maybe a 2-year degree is something to look into? I had a 2-year programming degree, BUT I also had 4 years' experience to help me get my foot in the door.  My experience mattered way more than my degree, (though that was a long time ago). 

@cintinative Does he have any kind of connections that can get him an internship or low-level job to put on a resume? 

[cintinative]

7 hours ago, Shoeless said:

To piggyback off this, maybe a 2-year degree is something to look into? I had a 2-year programming degree, BUT I also had 4 years' experience to help me get my foot in the door.  My experience mattered way more than my degree, (though that was a long time ago). 

@cintinative Does he have any kind of connections that can get him an internship or low-level job to put on a resume? 

I'm not sure about connections.  I need to think about that. 

School A has a well established co-op program.  As others have pointed out, it might not be the ideal degree, but because of all the classes he has taken/is taking, he could finish the B.S. with the co-op in probably four years including the software engineering certificate (all CS classes). 

@rzberrymom I did some digging earlier this week on the reddit subforums for the schools and it is pretty much universally stated that there are things you have to teach yourself outside of the classroom.  The co-op program at School A is very well established and people say it really gives them an advantage.  

[catz]

22 hours ago, rzberrymom said:

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I kind of, maybe agree with your kiddo. I’ve wondered how in the world universities are keeping up with the changes going on in CS right now, with all the upheaval and progress AI is bringing. Everything is changing so so fast!!

I would actually argue the opposite based on being industry adjacent, having graduated CS in the 90's and have a kid that just graduated in CS.  Every few years something comes up that is going to eliminate tech workers/software engineers.  When I was doing my CS degree, I was dialing into the university on a dial up modem or had to show up to their computer lab.  I was doing prompt line based stuff.  My husband even did some punch card stuff. 😂 Now all that said, the classes teaching principles, problem solving, team work, data management, advanced CS principles have been similar between my husband, me and now my son.  What has changed are the popular languages and tools homework is done in, some elective upper level classes (my new grad did take an AI class), and the tools used.  Though AI was actually invented in the 50's, there were theory classes and applications being taught for many many years on AI.  I think my kid even used different tools his first year to his final years.  I primarily did C programming  in university, but I had no problem transitioning to object oriented, java, different UI tools, python, etc

Right now the market is tight.  It is MUCH harder at the moment for the boot camp students to get hired.  I'm sure it won't remain like that forever.  I don't think AI is going to eliminate computer scientists, software engineers, tech saavy employees though.  I think it can actually make computer scientists more efficient and better problem solvers.  But I do think creative problem solvers who have deep understanding of principles and have shown the flexibilty to learn and apply the tech du jour will continue to be employable.  

A lot of boot camps and short programs are introducing basics and tools.  And that can be a good stepping stone for a highly motivated self learner to jump from or lead to an entry level role of a certain type and there is nothing wrong with that.  But entry level opportunities are not necessarily the same for 2 year degrees vs. boot camp grads vs. some BA grads vs. BS/rigorous CS grads.  There's nothing wrong with that and the world also needs people to fill a variety of roles.  But I don't think young people should get the impression that a 6 month boot camp is going to put you a strong, competitive position for those coveted 6 figure entry level CS roles especially at the moment.  

I do agree tech people have to constantly be learning and adapting.  It's pretty rare to learn one language or tool and be able to make a career of that.  Even more so now.  I do think a co-op program could be great for a student who likes the classroom experience less and if the school is guarenteeing placement.  I just chatted with someone whose student can't find a placement and it may affect graduation date.   And a co-op can be a step to a full time job.  

I totally get young people are going to do what they're going to do also.   Whatever pack your son is considering OP, I'd have him research the range of outcomes and placement out of various options.

[Arcadia]

Fyi https://abc7news.com/amp/stanley-zhong-college-rejected-teen-full-time-job-google-admissions/13890332/

“Stanley Zhong, 18, is a 2023 graduate of Gunn High School in Palo Alto.

Despite earning 3.97 unweighted and 4.42 weighted GPA, scoring 1590 out of 1600 on the SAT's and founding his own e-signing startup RabbitSign in sophomore year, he was rejected by 16 out of the 18 colleges he applied to.
…

But shortly after the wave of rejections, he was offered a full-time software engineering role by Google, one of the world's top tech companies.

Zhong just started his Google job this week. He and his father Nan Zhong appeared on our 3 p.m. weekday newscast, "Getting Answers," and talked about his improbable journey with ABC7 News Anchor Kristen Sze.

….

He was denied by: MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Stanford, UC Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD, UCSB, UC Davis, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, Cornell University, University of Illinois, University of Michigan, Georgia Tech, Caltech, University of Washington and University of Wisconsin.

His only acceptances: University of Texas and University of Maryland.

College admissions experts frequently tell applicants that schools with an under 5% acceptance rate like MIT and Stanford are reaches for almost everyone, but Zhong was even denied by Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, which has a middle 50% GPA of 4.13-4.25 for admitted engineering students.

... Acknowledging that Stanley may have simply been extraordinarily unlucky, the Zhongs say they're sharing his story to spark conversation abut making college admissions more transparent.

As for the 18-year old Google software engineer, he had decided to enroll at the University of Texas, but put that on hold to when he got the Google job offer.

As for whether college is still in the cards, he says maybe. For now, he's enjoying himself, not on a college campus, but the Google campus.”

[cintinative]

Wow @Arcadia that's crazy (the lack of acceptances)

[Farrar]

"College admissions experts frequently tell applicants that schools with an under 5% acceptance rate like MIT and Stanford are reaches for almost everyone" 😂😂😂😂

Um, UIUC, UW, those UC's ALSO had acceptance rates like that for computer science. That list was bonkers, which the article doesn't point out apparently. And less than 5%? Um, try less than 20. The way that's written is just laughable.

[catz]

14 minutes ago, Farrar said:

"College admissions experts frequently tell applicants that schools with an under 5% acceptance rate like MIT and Stanford are reaches for almost everyone" 😂😂😂😂

Um, UIUC, UW, those UC's ALSO had acceptance rates like that for computer science. That list was bonkers, which the article doesn't point out apparently. And less than 5%? Um, try less than 20. The way that's written is just laughable.

This is true.  My kid gradauted from one of the schools in CS this kid was rejected from and it's a state flagship.  I've been watching the process and helping kids with apps for 5-6 years and every year there is teeth gnashing about how kids are rejected from this lowly midwestern school that I think was #12 last year on the CS list.  There are LOTS of highly motiviated, high stat students out of the Bay Area that are sprinkling apps through these state flagships and they can only serve so many of them and are fulfilling institutional needs at the same time..   That other state's flagship isn't your safety or even a match.  Especially for CS/STEM.   MD and TX are extremely difficult admits for CS, he did really have good options assuming they are affordable.  Even that 50% admission rate may not be meaningful for your application in context.  

Where I do think this kid was failed was by California public schools.  Really California?  Gah.  I would be super irritated if I were paying taxes in CA.  

Google's hiring rate is 0.2%.  I think Google absolutely did this hire intentionally.  They are a bay area business and the CA public system are failing their best and brightest local students.   I do think it's good that they're talking about this and I totally agree in transparancy.  The common data set is a nice start but they could/should publish WAY more stats about their admissions processes.  What isn't clear is odds are WAY lower when you are an middle to upper middle class kid applying to these popular programs from a major metro because there are a zillion apps that look a lot like yours in the process.  A lot of these programs could probably fill with just qualified apps from the Bay Area.

 

 

[gstharr]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

"College admissions experts frequently tell applicants that schools with an under 5% acceptance rate like MIT and Stanford are reaches for almost everyone" 😂😂😂😂

Um, UIUC, UW, those UC's ALSO had acceptance rates like that for computer science. That list was bonkers, which the article doesn't point out apparently. And less than 5%? Um, try less than 20. The way that's written is just laughable.

Whenever, I hear these stories, I look for the missing part of the story. In this case,  he is  CS from Silicon Valley. The pool of CS applicants from that area must be extraordinary.  Where was his work experience before applying.  Take a look at his e-startup--basically just a web page.  Kind of like students who lists that they started a non-profit.. No school activities listed.  No comments from teachers. I imagine his recs letters were weak:: " He did well in my ap calc class, I am sure he will be successful in college."  With to slight intended, the kid's overall package does not seem that impressive.

my cynicism comes  from helping over 100 students from my local h.s., over the last 20  years, apply to UCs. They all apply to UCB and UCLA. Nearly all end up at UCI.. When their parents first contact me in the 12th grade, and show me their kid's 4.0 gpa and 1400+ SAT,  I already know they are going to UCI.  The main reason is that the parents but so such much emphasis on grades and SAT, the students did not participate in things that would boost their candidacy.  When I tell the kids that they needs some ECs,  they run to a couple of weekends of river clean-up, food kitchen, etc. I heard many college admission rep say that anybody can be straight A if all they do is study.  They would rather take a 3.5 with activities, because that student  adds life to the campus, and could have been straight A.

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, cintinative said:

Wow @Arcadia that's crazy (the lack of acceptances)

 

2 hours ago, catz said:

.  A lot of these programs could probably fill with just qualified apps from the Bay Area.

He was from Gunn High which is in Palo Alto. The kids from that city alone could probably file a lot of qualified apps. When we went for my DS18’s engineering school family welcome day event, Bay Area is already swamping that college and its a low rank UC. Their Dean said CS is the hardest major to get into for engineering school. Google has employee buses in the SF Bay Area so this kid doesn’t even need to drive to work unless he want to. 

[Farrar]

My comment isn't so much about the individual kid. He might be super qualified and got poor guidance about how to present himself to colleges. Or not. I have no idea. My comment is more about the article trying to make it sound like, like at the variety of schools this kid applied to and gasp, they denied him, gasp. But it wasn't a huge variety. They clearly want people to see "UIUC" and think, what even is that, it's not like it's Harvard. But um, actually, their acceptance rate for CS is Ivy League level small. It's just written in a really misleading way.

[BusyMom5]

If your kid is smart and has been doing extra coding stuff, the first few classes are probably going to be review.   Mine is finishing a MIS masters degree, with lots of cyber security classes.  It's from the business school because she liked it better than the Engineering college.  We looked at both programs, class requirements, co-ops and internships,  and she picked MIS over CS.  She has a really great advisor and at one point, when she was feeling much the same as your son, he explained that professors have to structure classes so that most of the class can do well. Mine learns so quickly and gets bored, but most students need more to master a topic or come in without that same base knowledge.   Unfortunately they don't test out, so she has to take the classes anyway.  You might explain this to your son- these classes are to give everyone an opportunity to have a solid foundation to build on.  He has already been working on his, but others need more time. 

DD has went to the job fair every year and this year is different.   Not as many companies even showed up, and not as many kids getting offers.  Mine is probably #2 in her class, but hasn't even gotten an interview with the companies she wants.  Thankfully she did an internship last summer and they have kept her on PT from home,  so she does have a job lined up- it's just not the one she wants.  

All that to say that right now probably isn't the best time to be looking for a job in IT, especially without a degree at all.  I would encourage him to branch out and explore some other types of classes to give him a challenge right now.  It's okay if these beginning classes are easy!

[SanDiegoMom]

10 hours ago, gstharr said:

Whenever, I hear these stories, I look for the missing part of the story. In this case,  he is  CS from Silicon Valley. The pool of CS applicants from that area must be extraordinary.  Where was his work experience before applying.  Take a look at his e-startup--basically just a web page.  Kind of like students who lists that they started a non-profit.. No school activities listed.  No comments from teachers. I imagine his recs letters were weak:: " He did well in my ap calc class, I am sure he will be successful in college."  With to slight intended, the kid's overall package does not seem that impressive.

my cynicism comes  from helping over 100 students from my local h.s., over the last 20  years, apply to UCs. They all apply to UCB and UCLA. Nearly all end up at UCI.. When their parents first contact me in the 12th grade, and show me their kid's 4.0 gpa and 1400+ SAT,  I already know they are going to UCI.  The main reason is that the parents but so such much emphasis on grades and SAT, the students did not participate in things that would boost their candidacy.  When I tell the kids that they needs some ECs,  they run to a couple of weekends of river clean-up, food kitchen, etc. I heard many college admission rep say that anybody can be straight A if all they do is study.  They would rather take a 3.5 with activities, because that student  adds life to the campus, and could have been straight A.

This is why my kids tell me how glad they are that I have been advising them as best I can - so many kids got disappointed last year when applying CS.  At UcLA the CS admit rate is now something like 3 percent?  There are students with deeper EC’s and similar stats not getting in. 
 

My son has the same stats, probably more EC’s, but none computer science related.  If he applied CS he would probably get rejected from all places.   We look at all the admit rates for the Engineering school, and the admit rates by high school.  Looking around you and realizing that out of 170 people applying to UcLA only about 10-15 get in can be pretty sobering. 

[catz]

I don't know if anyone else missed this quote in this article.  I just initially watched the interview.   But since it hasn't been brought up ...

• "Stanley's father Nan Zhong is an engineer and introduced coding to Stanley at a young age. Nan works at Google as a software engineering manager."  

What a stunning and amazing coincidence!?  🤣  Lesson #2 kids.  Connections matter.

[Malam]

On 10/2/2023 at 6:00 PM, cintinative said:

Also, he feels like he is not getting much depth and when he looks forward to the rest of the course progression, he is not seeing a whole lot more depth there either.  He feels like he could watch youtube (or do linkedin learning or coursera) and get the same level of knowledge.

 

On 10/2/2023 at 6:00 PM, cintinative said:

was wondering how he was supposed to come by this knowledge when it was not taught at the universities

He's said it himself: the extra skills are typically self-taught. This doesn't even get into the skills required for technical interviews, which also need to be learned outside of class ("grinding leetcode")

On 10/2/2023 at 6:00 PM, cintinative said:

Would it be inappropriate to have my son talk to someone in the IT department at the current university about his concerns?

I suspect he would give more weight to the opinion of a current software engineer.

If he wants intellectual depth, I imagine he would be more fulfilled with a degree in CS than a degree in SE - at most universities, the former is more technically and intellectually demanding than the latter. If he chooses to stick with SE, then he shouldn't expect the program to be the sole source of challenge and fulfillment.

On 10/2/2023 at 11:43 PM, regentrude said:

An indicator for a low level of coursework is a low level of math requirements for the degree. If the major doesn't require several semesters of calculus

This might be true for physics, but I don't think it's true for CS courses. Neither MIT's nor Caltech's freshman CS courses require calculus - CS is generally more dependent on discrete math rather than continuous math.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Malam

[regentrude]

14 minutes ago, Malam said:

 

This might be true for physics, but I don't think it's true for CS courses. Neither MIT's nor Caltech's freshman CS courses require calculus - CS is generally more dependent on discrete math rather than continuous math.

I was not talking about calc as a prerequisite for individual courses; Iwas referring to the math required for the *degree program* as an indicator of the rigor of the program.

Of course intro CS courses wouldn't need calculus. But a program that requires calc and calc based physics will be more demanding and have stronger students than one that only requires algebra and trig.

[Haken]

A CS degree will not teach someone what a professional software developer does on a daily basis. What is done on a daily basis is way below what is taught for a CS degree. If you can do a CS degree, you should be able to learn whatever is needed professionally easily. It may be easier to learn by picking up a book or watching videos online.

A lot of professional software developers who completed CS degrees typically get disillusioned by the job because it is well beneath what they were trained to do. They become quite unhappy over time. 

That being the case, it's hard to get a professional software development job without a CS degree. For entry level jobs the interview questions can be of the type typically covered in a Data Structures and Algorithms course though they may never have a need to use it in the actual job. 

 

 

 

[catz]

2 hours ago, Haken said:

A lot of professional software developers who completed CS degrees typically get disillusioned by the job because it is well beneath what they were trained to do. They become quite unhappy over time. 

That being the case, it's hard to get a professional software development job without a CS degree. For entry level jobs the interview questions can be of the type typically covered in a Data Structures and Algorithms course though they may never have a need to use it in the actual job. 

Oh I don't know.  I think people imagine software engineers are doing ONE thing.  But if you work at an R&D development house and are working on large scale systems and have gotten through  junior developer first year or 2, you may be on design team of a new large scale system.  Where that data and memory management theory will serve you well as well as ongoing creative problem solving.

If you are maintaing a stable-ish app sitting on top of a stable-ish database, yep, that might really be quite boring and dry.  

The last job I worked was a web based large scale multi modular tool used by engineers and had customizable components.  It was very interesting problem solving that used applied theory constantly.  But also had us regularly growing a toolbox of tools.  My spouse is working on a similar system right now, though more from a technical lead perspective.  I had one job for a short period of time that was very simple user interface interactions with very simple data base interactions.  It was definitely not as represented when I interviewed.  I found that pretty mind numbing and I didn't have to last long at the time because the market was very good.

But any corporate job and working with large scale teams might have ups and downs and less interesting things to do for sure.   But this is where different degrees and experience levels may come into play too.   I think there is a reason some jobs will require a many hour technical test while another employer just checks off some sort of degree as their gatekeeping and might be more interested in your personal interview.  

[ieta_cassiopeia]

I wonder if your oldest might benefit from learning the difference between expectations at different levels of a degree?

Course catalogues tend to be all about the content that is taught in each course. When skills are mentioned, it's most often the ones that are put on the degree. However, they rarely discuss the skills needed to do well within each course that *aren't* likely to be put into a CV. The result is that more difficult courses aren't simply doing the same thing with different content, but doing more complicated things with that content. Watching some videos about the difference between levels (an example is this one from Open University about going from beginning to intermediate-level courses within a degree) will hopefully show that being able to do things like focus in on the exact meaning of a question, grapple with determining relative relevancy of concepts being taught to specific problems and even making modifications to suggested lines of inquiry in order to better serve the needs of the situation at hand will make him better at being a computing professional. A good computing course will teach all this, not just technical skills, programming languages, social abilities or employability requirements.

 

It's possible he may be ready to do courses that are more challenging than the ones he currently does, that are not precisely introductory in nature. This is a good and healthy thing. Picking up a couple of the elements in which the proposed degree is weak (while also completing the expected course load at good quality) would be a good use of time while waiting for the more advanced ways to handle concepts. He could even practise some techniques more often associated with higher levels of university study, ready for when they will be needed in earnest.