Day of the Homeschooled Child (today) and homeschooled children's Bill of Rights: thoughts?

[Eos]

A spinoff from a thread ten days ago, and also from the link in the current thread about the documentary.

https://www.dayofthehomeschooledchild.org/

https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/bill-of-rights/

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

As a homeschool alumni and a current homeschooling parent I find that particular organization annoying.

Are there homeschooling parents who shouldn’t homeschool? Yes. I can give you names. Do I know homeschooled people who were abused, neglected and didn’t have their educational needs met? Yes. I can give you names.

I can also give you the name of my youngest son, age 8, who wasn’t reading when I pulled him out of PS last fall. He’s now at an appropriate grade level in all subjects.

I’d much rather people work towards living wages, real assistance for families in crisis, increased support for special education, and other programs that would reduce child abuse, educational neglect and child poverty regardless of educational setting.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Clarita]

I wonder if they researched what rights a US public school student actually have. At the very least I think they should research what a public schools actually provide and what public schools can actually do. It makes no sense to put a higher requirement on homeschools compared to public schools.  Some examples are

Quote

• The right to be protected from economic exploitation and from performing any work that is likely to interfere with their schooling or with their health and well-being; the right to adequate time and energy to complete their academic studies or interests. 

Public school has little say over what a child does after school. All they can force is a student has to be in the school building during the hours of the school day, but not really enforce enough time for the student to complete homework, studying and rest outside those hours.

Quote

• The right to an education that prepares them for an open future: that is, the meaningful ability to successfully enter a career of their choice or to attend an institution of higher learning with the major of their choice without substantial impediment. 
• The right to an education that supports the development of the child’s personality, talents, and mental and physical abilities to their fullest potential. 

 Well if public schools were providing that less people would be homeschooling.

Quote

• The right to an age-appropriate level of privacy and freedom from arbitrary interference in their friendships; the right to parental guidance on how to maintain and navigate healthy friendships and parental affirmation of the importance of friendships.

Public school educated students' parents can arbitrarily interfere in their child's friendships. Maybe not during the school day but parents can still check and restrict phone access and not be "affirming" about friendships.

Quote

• The right to access mental healthcare from a licensed medical professional; the right to access prescription medications for the care of mental health.
• The right to be evaluated and periodically re-evaluated; the right to access and receive therapies and medical care from licensed providers; the right to accommodations and services, including medical and assistive devices which grant independence and facilitate learning and communication; the right to an individualized education plan developed in concert with providers outside the home.

In public school I believe the school may suggest such interventions, but ultimately the parent still has to agree to the intervention. 

etc.

[scholastica]

Who gets to decide what is appropriate when? There’s a lot of the word appropriate and all kinds of qualified people disagree on what is appropriate at any given age. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

No amount of regulating, legal action, or requirements will save every situation. A lot of kids leave PS without the education they need, suffer abuse, are influenced negatively by peers, etc. My PS was horrible, most of my trauma comes from it. While those families who don’t really educate their kids exist, I don’t think over regulating the whole group of us will help that much. 

 

[SKL]

I agree with some of it, but a lot of it is trying to "guarantee" rights that (a) aren't guaranteed for kids in B&M school and (b) are properly the business of the parents to decide.

I feel like someone got too ambitious here.

I assume this intended to be a guideline rather than a law.  But still.

I notice there haven't been many signatures so far.

[prairiewindmomma]

Their basic bill looks a lot like what I think ideal homeschooling should look like. As a conversation piece, it’s a great idea. Functionally, I don’t see how this gets them from Point A—where we are now, to their ideal of Point B. You generally can’t legislate your way out of bad parenting. 

[Murphy101]

I see zero value or logic in demanding more of home schools than any public schools.

As it is, nearly all schools can do things to students that would get children taken away from parents. How about we fix that instead?

[Clemsondana]

The word 'appropriate' is doing a lot of heavy lifting.  We have friends who don't allow cell phones until high school, so their kids can''t participate in the texting that some of the other kids do.  Is that an inappropriate restriction on relationships?  That's the complaint that my kid makes when I take away their phone for a day or 2 as a consequence, or won't let kid have screens until certain chores or schoolwork is done, but I would argue that it is completely appropriate.  For that matter, am I infringing on the kid being able to have their own possessions by taking the phone temporarily?  

The same is true of some of the other academic or extracurricular topics.  Some families choose family time over extracurriculars.  I'd argue that it isn't appropriate to only offer a smart kid basic academics, but schools often don't do better and I don't know how anybody could determine how much is enough. 

As I read this, I can imagine the extreme situations that they are written to address.  But, I can also easily imagine kids seeing all sorts of things as violations of these rights.  Being grounded from activities or screens for a few days, not being allowed to have a particular kid come to visit, not being allowed to attend sleepovers, not getting a cell phone at the desired age (or having its use restricted to between certain hours), being made to study a subject, a parent making a kid choose between 2 extracurriculars because it demands too much of the family to facilitate both, being told to get a job to save for college expenses, a family doing a good job with school overall but not doing much with art, or music, or science...all of these are examples come from families that we know (not all the same family) but I would never think that the family was being unreasonable even though in some instances I would make different choices.  

[Heartstrings]

Lobbying to get the US  to ratify the Children’s Bill of Rights might be a better use of time overall.  I see messaging like this as pushing the agenda that’s trying to paint all homeschoolers as negligent nut jobs and public schools as shining beacons.   It’s propaganda.

 

 It also leaves out a huge swath of private schools that wouldn’t meet these requirements. 

[SKL]

Also wondering why they felt the need to single out adoptive families.

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Also wondering why they felt the need to single out adoptive families.

I don’t know and find it distasteful.
 

 I do know there are a number of adoptive families that try to “rehome” their children.  There are apparently Facebook groups and discords that they use.  There was a scandal some years back in my state when a state rep got caught doing it, and there’s been a widely publicized case of a family v-logger that “rehomed” a special needs adopted child relatively recently. I don’t know the percentage of adoptions that fail but in terms of absolute number it’s a lot of children. 

It would seem those cases are being weaponized against adoptive families the way abuse cases are weaponized against homeschoolers.  

[Faith-manor]

I think we need to work for a bill of rights for ps kids who seem to have exactly none. I do believe an education appropriate for the capabilities of the student, so for neuro typical kids, a fully preparatory high school diploma should be a right. For special needs and learning disabilities, the most robust as is reasonable, and ya, I know, Grey areas.

Ps needs to be gutted and overhauled. This needs to be a priority, and be fully funded. I have no problem with decent homeschool guidelines and some measure of accountability. Children should not be pawns in the power trip war between parents and state. They deserve better, and since they cannot take care of themselves as adults without a proper education, it should be considered a fundamental, basic human right. How we get from country wide abject educational disaster to this, stumps me though because getting people to agree on anything is just nuts now. 

[SKL]

57 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I don’t know and find it distasteful.
 

 I do know there are a number of adoptive families that try to “rehome” their children.  There are apparently Facebook groups and discords that they use.  There was a scandal some years back in my state when a state rep got caught doing it, and there’s been a widely publicized case of a family v-logger that “rehomed” a special needs adopted child relatively recently. I don’t know the percentage of adoptions that fail but in terms of absolute number it’s a lot of children. 

It would seem those cases are being weaponized against adoptive families the way abuse cases are weaponized against homeschoolers.  

They aren't talking about failed adoptions or "rehoming," they are declaring the extent to which adoptive parents are required to immerse their kids into their birth cultures etc. (again, something that is certainly not guaranteed to kids in b&m school).  That whole section is just bizarrely out of place.

[Ellie]

My first response is "Oh, please," and I can't get past that. These young adults were unhappy with their childhood--some of them, rightfully so--and so are full of fire to make sure that it Doesn't Happen to Anyone Else. But really...oh, please. Countless public school children have the same experiences, except in public schools. It sucks for them, too; how can we fix it for them? It should be all or nothing.

And how, exactly, are we supposed to fix the problems? Who will be in charge of that? Who gets to decide everything? Who is the "police" arm of whichever government group is supposed to fix it? And if public schools haven't been fixed, why would anyone imagine that homeschools could be "fixed"?

Just...oh please.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

And they don’t want to hear other voices.  As a homeschool graduate who didn’t have a perfect childhood and maybe it wasn’t even good at times, and lived in poverty, I still got a good education from my mom. But if I post that on any of the TikToks or Facebook posts they freak out.

I 100% believe that many people had a bad homeschool experience. I know many of them and saw their homeschooling back twenty years ago when we were in high school. But I hate that they also refuse to listen to other voices.

[Shelydon]

6 hours ago, Clarita said:

I wonder if they researched what rights a US public school student actually have. At the very least I think they should research what a public schools actually provide and what public schools can actually do. It makes no sense to put a higher requirement on homeschools compared to public schools.  Some examples are

Public school has little say over what a child does after school. All they can force is a student has to be in the school building during the hours of the school day, but not really enforce enough time for the student to complete homework, studying and rest outside those hours.

 Well if public schools were providing that less people would be homeschooling.

Public school educated students' parents can arbitrarily interfere in their child's friendships. Maybe not during the school day but parents can still check and restrict phone access and not be "affirming" about friendships.

In public school I believe the school may suggest such interventions, but ultimately the parent still has to agree to the intervention. 

etc.

This. Locally we have "good" public schools. These schools are full of wealthy privileged children who harass  their teachers, do drugs in the hall in plain view of the entire student body, and struggle academically but never fail. It is a mess that I would not wish on any kid

[Not_a_Number]

4 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Their basic bill looks a lot like what I think ideal homeschooling should look like. As a conversation piece, it’s a great idea. Functionally, I don’t see how this gets them from Point A—where we are now, to their ideal of Point B. You generally can’t legislate your way out of bad parenting. 

Yeah. It’s a lot of words is what it is. 

I totally agree with this perspective.

[Heartstrings]

Listening to former homeschool kids on Tik Tok I have noticed how inextricably their experiences are linked to their parents religion.  A lot of the negatives they perceive seem to be more connected to the very conservative religious upbringing  than they are to homeschooling, the homeschooling just gets the blame.  In a country with free expression of religion, it’s always going to be a parents prerogative to raise their children in their religion as they see fit.   I don’t see how any of this could be implemented without infringing on the religious  rights of the parents.  What’s appropriate for a secular family, or a mainline Protestant religious family is going to be very, very different than in the Duggar’s version of the religion. 
 

Tbey also have a very “High School Musical” view of public school that I don’t recognize from my own time in public high school

Edited April 30, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Ting Tang]

They should just say they want to eliminate homeschooling. 

[SKL]

Yeah, I also noticed that sex education was emphasized a lot.  (Another thing that public schools may or may not do well.)

[Heartstrings]

13 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yeah, I also noticed that sex education was emphasized a lot.  (Another thing that public schools may or may not do well.)

I live in an “abstinence only” state.  The biological part of periods, eggs and sperm was covered well in middle school, but that was it.  

[Clarita]

5 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

And they don’t want to hear other voices.  As a homeschool graduate who didn’t have a perfect childhood and maybe it wasn’t even good at times, and lived in poverty, I still got a good education from my mom. But if I post that on any of the TikToks or Facebook posts they freak out.

I 100% believe that many people had a bad homeschool experience. I know many of them and saw their homeschooling back twenty years ago when we were in high school. But I hate that they also refuse to listen to other voices.

I'd believe that. Just based on what seems to be their view of what public school actually looks like. As a public school alumni, I'm not sure they talked to people who went to public school. (For the record, I had a mostly positive public school experience; it's not all roses, but it was fine.) 

[Eos]

15 hours ago, SKL said:

I agree with some of it, but a lot of it is trying to "guarantee" rights that (a) aren't guaranteed for kids in B&M school and (b) are properly the business of the parents to decide.

I feel like someone got too ambitious here.

I assume this intended to be a guideline rather than a law.  But still.

I notice there haven't been many signatures so far.

Line for line, the Bill of Rights seems to be addressing really specific situations that specific people have experienced. I worry about an organization (remember that Harvard symposium early in the pandemic?) trying to write law based on this.

 

12 hours ago, SKL said:

They aren't talking about failed adoptions or "rehoming," they are declaring the extent to which adoptive parents are required to immerse their kids into their birth cultures etc. (again, something that is certainly not guaranteed to kids in b&m school).  That whole section is just bizarrely out of place.

People tell their stories until they feel heard. The amount of research time and effort that went into the abused kids section, for example, is extensive and to me looks like a project done by someone who would sue their parents if they could.

Honestly, if I had read this when I started homeschooling 30 years ago, I would have been irritated and offended.  Now I feel sorry that some people have clearly suffered through an experience I've cherished.  I've read what Farrar has written about it in the past but didn't realize the extent of the internet conversation about it since I don't read Reddit or watch Tik-toks.

 

[Carrie12345]

First study I pulled up states there is an average of 500 filicide arrests/yr in the US. To cite 167 over 20 years as a primary motivator is enough to make me lose interest. 
(IN THE MOVEMENT! Not in the well-being of children!)

Also, the phrasing of child abuse reports. I’ve had a child abuse report. It was false, unfounded and, like many, custody motivated. But it was a report.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Carrie12345
Cite, Not site.

[Eos]

Some of the stories bring me to a place not of regulating but of financially supporting, as others of the Hive as suggested in other threads. 

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Eos

[Ausmumof3]

23 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Listening to former homeschool kids on Tik Tok I have noticed how inextricably their experiences are linked to their parents religion.  A lot of the negatives they perceive seem to be more connected to the very conservative religious upbringing  than they are to homeschooling, the homeschooling just gets the blame.  In a country with free expression of religion, it’s always going to be a parents prerogative to raise their children in their religion as they see fit.   I don’t see how any of this could be implemented without infringing on the religious  rights of the parents.  What’s appropriate for a secular family, or a mainline Protestant religious family is going to be very, very different than in the Duggar’s version of the religion. 
 

Tbey also have a very “High School Musical” view of public school that I don’t recognize from my own time in public high school

Hmm true. I can say being from a religious conservative family in public school is not much fun either. You get all the stuff and you get to be the weird one wearing dresses with no TV as well. Not that most of my upbringing was unhappy outside the school part. Genuine love can do a lot for a child regardless of what else is going on.

[Heartstrings]

14 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Hmm true. I can say being from a religious conservative family in public school is not much fun either. You get all the stuff and you get to be the weird one wearing dresses with no TV as well. Not that most of my upbringing was unhappy outside the school part. Genuine love can do a lot for a child regardless of what else is going on.

I think that’s the exact part they are missing.  In a lot of their minds going to public school is tied to being allowed to watch cable, read secular books, listen to popular music, wear fashionable clothes, hang out with friends at the diner after a movie.  In actuality their parents religion kept them from those things, not school choice.  When I tell them that my kids homeschool AND hang out with friends, watch regular tv, play video games etc. they either think I’m a unicorn or a liar.  

[ddcrook]

Yeah, that bill of rights sounds like the writers have a few bones to pick with their parents. It's oddly specific about things the have nothing to do with homeschooling. The one thing that I can agree with is that homeschooled kids should have a right to their high school transcript. 

[Faith-manor]

7 hours ago, ddcrook said:

Yeah, that bill of rights sounds like the writers have a few bones to pick with their parents. It's oddly specific about things the have nothing to do with homeschooling. The one thing that I can agree with is that homeschooled kids should have a right to their high school transcript. 

Yes. Every student regardless of homeschool, public, or private should have legal access to their high school transcript. That could just be a law on its own, and a requirement in each state that the parent provide a transcript, keep records. Of course, parents who didn't do their jobs will lie about it, but it might be a place to start. If there was a financial penalty attached, maybe it would be a deterrent.

The reality is no law that will make crappy parents be less crappy. All we can do is react after the craptasticness is brought to light. Plenty of ps kids have profoundly awful parents. But maybe we could say if they don't keep education records, they can be penalized. Some would step up that much if it saved them a $3000 fine or whatever. 

I also think part and parcel of this is a right at 18 to all legal records, birth certificate, social security card, etc. Nip that ultra nutty mess in the bud where some kids can't get jobs, financial assistance, etc. because they can't prove who they are. I would love it if every Amish parent in my state got nailed with a big fine and a lot of legal woes because their kids have no birth certificates. The local group refuses to apply for them for their home births, and for the Amish youth who do want to leave, it is a huge problem. They have no legal identity.

But, this isn't a "homeschool bill of rights" per se. It should really simply be laws enacted to help ensure the rights of any new adult. I know kids in private, parochial schools who were home birthed and have no legal identity.