poverty & homeschooling

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Shoeless said:

It isn't an either or situation, where you can either have a robust education OR you can have close family relationships. You can do both. 

I also think of "school" and "learning/education" as different things. Sometimes learning happens in school, but sometimes school just happens at school. 

School sometimes interferes with relationships. I felt that right away after enrolling my son in kindy.  I would be sacrificing part of my relationship with him to make it easier for school professionals to accomplish their jobs. 

Learning doesn't interfere with our relationships. The choice isn't math or grandpa. 

And none of this has much to do with poverty and homeschooling, anyway.

 

One of the selling points of homeschooling for me has been the ability to manage both relationships and education with enough flexibility for both. I probably over prioritised education at some points in our journey at the expense of other wellbeing. I have noticed a trend with homeschool bloggers to talk about relationship first a lot. While that’s not bad in theory, I do worry about how some people may apply that. For me, relationship first means - ok overseas rellies are over so we take a day off to spend time at a cafe with family. It doesn’t mean we all yell at each other when we try to do math so we’ll just bake cookies and garden instead for months on end. But even as I say that, I know that some kids ultimately will probably find those baking skills more useful than maths that they never mastered to a level that allows it to be a career path. 

[Shoeless]

20 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

One of the selling points of homeschooling for me has been the ability to manage both relationships and education with enough flexibility for both. I probably over prioritised education at some points in our journey at the expense of other wellbeing. I have noticed a trend with homeschool bloggers to talk about relationship first a lot. While that’s not bad in theory, I do worry about how some people may apply that. For me, relationship first means - ok overseas rellies are over so we take a day off to spend time at a cafe with family. It doesn’t mean we all yell at each other when we try to do math so we’ll just bake cookies and garden instead for months on end. But even as I say that, I know that some kids ultimately will probably find those baking skills more useful than maths that they never mastered to a level that allows it to be a career path. 

I prioritized relationships over education in the beginning, too. My kiddo was several grades ahead of peers and a voracious reader, so I felt ok with taking pressure off of academics in the early years.  

I think a lot of people read these threads and feel judged about the quality of their homeschool. I know I sometimes do! I'm sure there are posters who think I'm doing a lousy job or that my curriculum choices are mediocre. 🤷‍♀️ 

Most of us are doing a pretty decent job, though. We have the right combination of emotional, educational, and financial resources to educate our kids and move them on to the next thing in life, whatever that thing may be.

[Murphy101]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

Yes.
As a college instructor, I see again and again how students are limited in their choices because of math - not because of college math, but because of the gaps they have in 5th through 9th grade math. Students who never developed a real understanding of fractions and algebra have such large gaps that college cannot remediate them. Those students have to give up their dreams of engineering or science careers because they simply cannot catch up on math.
Of the students who place in our remedial algebra course, the lowest math we offer at this university, less than 10% manage to graduate with a STEM degree (which is what they had enrolled in when they started here)

@Murphy101 mentioned that kids have decades to catch up on math. Theoretically, yes. Practically, it almost never happens. Students who have these gaps in foundational math typically end up so hopelessly behind that they do not catch up and eventually drop out of their program. Their lack of math education in 5th - 9th grade severely limits what choices they have for their professional lives. So if educating kids is about making sure they have choices, a top notch math education should be a high priority. If I had to name  a single subject as the ticket to a way out of poverty, it is math. 

It’s not that I disagree with you.

I have dyscalculia. No amount of top notch math education was ever going to change that. And yet I’m better at math than many due to always distrusting my calculations and triple checking them.  Despite school not teaching me any new math concepts after 5th grade. It was various versions of practical basic math by different course names until I graduated.  What? Should I have gotten Fs in other math courses? Spent hours every day on study strategies or tutoring until … what? I was cured?

I do think students of any age have to both want it enough to work for it and have the means to make that work happen. Paying for 1-2 years remedial non credit courses before they can even start working towards a desired degree is a major problem.  Personally I think remedial courses should be paid for by the state bc a basic education should be freely available to all citizens of any age. 

[Murphy101]

3 hours ago, Shoeless said:

It isn't an either or situation, where you can either have a robust education OR you can have close family relationships. You can do both. 

I also think of "school" and "learning/education" as different things. Sometimes learning happens in school, but sometimes school just happens at school. 

School sometimes interferes with relationships. I felt that right away after enrolling my son in kindy.  I would be sacrificing part of my relationship with him to make it easier for school professionals to accomplish their jobs. 

Learning doesn't interfere with our relationships. The choice isn't math or grandpa. 

And none of this has much to do with poverty and homeschooling, anyway.

 

I don’t think it has to be either or.

but for a lot of families in poverty it sure feels that way. Because the most common strategies for using education to overcome poverty is to have poor kids spend hours upon hours making up for their poverty by time at a school desk. There’s few families in poverty that can be involved in that time commitment.  But if they can’t, it’s education neglect to many people.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Murphy101

[Carrie12345]

4 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think it has to be either or.

but for a lot of families in poverty it sure feels that way. Because the most common strategies for using education to overcome poverty is to have poor kids spend hours upon hours making up for their poverty by time at a school desk. There’s few families in poverty that can be involved in that time commitment.  But if they can’t, it’s education neglect to many people.

Quoting for the overall gist, not just specific to this post.

Now we’re getting into the enormous spectrum of human factors.  There’s can and can’t. There’s also will or won’t. And want/can/will, don’t want/can/won’t, and its other combinations.  
Then there are the whys for each. Multiple jobs, odd hours, mental illness, over-stressed, caring for parents, physical limitations, academic limitations, worldview, addiction, and one could go on and on.  
That applies to academics, enrichment activities, life skills, imparting ethics, values, boundaries, love, expectations, hopes… regardless of education setting or income.

Yes, we can say that the impoverished are more prone to situations in which these factors are more common, and society needs to systemically address that, but it isn’t universal or exclusive to that.

We could, in the best world, eliminate poverty, making negative factors less likely overall, but they will still exist to an extent without poverty to blame. 
That’s why, imo, it is important to determine a more concrete definition of neglect (educational and otherwise.) Can we call it circumstantial? Philosophy? Priorities? Capability? Willingness? Intent?  Is there an acceptable level? What degree of intervention should be expected when the most basic survival needs are attended to?

Maybe I went a little off the track there, but I’ve seen neglect (not hs) in the system, and it is extremely complicated. I want to see improvements in how it gets addressed.

[SKL]

9 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

It’s not that I disagree with you.

I have dyscalculia. No amount of top notch math education was ever going to change that. And yet I’m better at math than many due to always distrusting my calculations and triple checking them.  Despite school not teaching me any new math concepts after 5th grade. It was various versions of practical basic math by different course names until I graduated.  What? Should I have gotten Fs in other math courses? Spent hours every day on study strategies or tutoring until … what? I was cured?

I go back and forth about the value of more conceptual math (not sure what to call it) - math beyond what most of us will ever use in our daily life and work.

My state has made Algebra II a requirement for graduation.  In addition, kids have to get a certain minimum score on the Algebra I standardized state test (if not, they have to re-take it at least once and then find some other way to meet the math requirement).  I guess a lot of colleges also insist that you have at least Algebra II even if you're going into a non-mathy field.

On one hand, it's good for kids to force their brains to work on complex problems.  On the other hand ... at what cost?  My kid, who went into 11th with a 4.0 GPA, has pretty much accepted getting a D, and this has demotivated her across the board.  She's not learning study/thinking skills, she's learning how to fake, cheat, avoid, and settle.  And she's actually better than a lot of her peers, so I'm not sure what the implications are for the upcoming generation of non-genius adults.

[SKL]

9 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think it has to be either or.

but for a lot of families in poverty it sure feels that way. Because the most common strategies for using education to overcome poverty is to have poor kids spend hours upon hours making up for their poverty by time at a school desk. There’s few families in poverty that can be involved in that time commitment.  But if they can’t, it’s education neglect to many people.

Well, to be fair, most kids of all income levels are spending hours upon hours at a school desk.  It's not like this is a special punishment reserved for poor kids.

[maize]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I go back and forth about the value of more conceptual math (not sure what to call it) - math beyond what most of us will ever use in our daily life and work.

My state has made Algebra II a requirement for graduation.  In addition, kids have to get a certain minimum score on the Algebra I standardized state test (if not, they have to re-take it at least once and then find some other way to meet the math requirement).  I guess a lot of colleges also insist that you have at least Algebra II even if you're going into a non-mathy field.

On one hand, it's good for kids to force their brains to work on complex problems.  On the other hand ... at what cost?  My kid, who went into 11th with a 4.0 GPA, has pretty much accepted getting a D, and this has demotivated her across the board.  She's not learning study/thinking skills, she's learning how to fake, cheat, avoid, and settle.  And she's actually better than a lot of her peers, so I'm not sure what the implications are for the upcoming generation of non-genius adults.

I'm not at all a fan of requiring algebra 2 for high school graduation. It's far more abstract than most people will use in their lives or their jobs.

Absolutely make all the math available, and encourage enrollment for kids who are math capable and especially any who may be interested in a STEM field, but I do not think algebra 2 should be required for either high school or college. There are many, many learning and career paths for which it is not necessary. 

[ScoutTN]

6 minutes ago, maize said:

I'm not at all a fan of requiring algebra 2 for high school graduation. It's far more abstract than most people will use in their lives or their jobs.

Absolutely make all the math available, and encourage enrollment for kids who are math capable and especially any who may be interested in a STEM field, but I do not think algebra 2 should be required for either high school or college. There are many, many learning and career paths for which it is not necessary. 

I agree. My state requires one year beyond Alg 2 and it will be torture for my Ds.

Edited April 26, 2023 by ScoutTN

[Scarlett]

Agreeing with @regentrude that kids get left behind in math between grades 5-8.  It happened to me for sure.  There was no chance of me ever getting a STEM job.  
 

I get through life just fine though. And I never sit around wishing I had a STEM job. I think I was capable of learning the math—in fact I was able to teach my son many things I never fully understood until then.  
 

So whatever the reason a child falls behind, life goes on and people do learn to compensate. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

7 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Agreeing with @regentrude that kids get left behind in math between grades 5-8.  It happened to me for sure.  There was no chance of me ever getting a STEM job.  
 

I get through life just fine though. And I never sit around wishing I had a STEM job. I think I was capable of learning the math—in fact I was able to teach my son many things I never fully understood until then.  
 

So whatever the reason a child falls behind, life goes on and people do learn to compensate. 

Unless they don’t learn to read or do even basic consumer math. I tutored a woman in her 40’s like that. She had a job in a factory but was severely limited in her ability to do basic life skills as a result. I was actually hired by the factory to tutor her. She was of normal intelligence but certain life circumstances and choices had resulted in this. I was able to get her from one digit addition to very basic algebra in four months.  She was extremely grateful. But not everyone has the opportunity for tailored remedial tutoring. 

[SKL]

4 hours ago, maize said:

I'm not at all a fan of requiring algebra 2 for high school graduation. It's far more abstract than most people will use in their lives or their jobs.

Absolutely make all the math available, and encourage enrollment for kids who are math capable and especially any who may be interested in a STEM field, but I do not think algebra 2 should be required for either high school or college. There are many, many learning and career paths for which it is not necessary. 

Funny, I decided to go look for any updates to the graduation requirements, and there's now a whole pile of stuff about how "Algebra 2 requirements thwart high school success."  Apparently they were supposed to roll out new math options this school year, allowing kids to choose from several "pathways" that allow kids to meet the "Algebra 2 or equivalent" without taking algebra 2.  For example, "Statistics and Probability" is one pathway; then there's "Quantitative Reasoning" which sounds like a fancy name for real-world math.  Of course, nobody bothered to tell families about this.  😕  They still require everyone to take Algebra I + geometry (and score decently on the state algebra test) + have a total of 4 math credits to graduate.  Or you can join a Vo-Ed program (still need 4 years of math, but it doesn't have to include algebra II equivalent).  You can get out of the minimum test score requirement if you join the military.

One of the reasons given for the change is the inequity inherent in the requirement that life success is only for people who gain competence in Algebra II.

TBH I probably would have insisted on my kid taking algebra II anyway, partly because she had been looking at a more scientific (biology/health) career going into 11th.  But again ... she's relatively average, and there are a lot of kids who struggle more than she does.

[regentrude]

6 hours ago, maize said:

I'm not at all a fan of requiring algebra 2 for high school graduation. It's far more abstract than most people will use in their lives or their jobs.

Absolutely make all the math available, and encourage enrollment for kids who are math capable and especially any who may be interested in a STEM field, but I do not think algebra 2 should be required for either high school or college. There are many, many learning and career paths for which it is not necessary. 

that is a dangerous argument since there are also many many paths that do not require a knowledge of history, biology, chemistry, foreign language, literature... by that argument there should not be any standards in school. (and in this country, those standards are already pathetically low compared with other developed countries.)

School is also supposed to teach critical thinking, abstract reasoning, communication skills, a global perspective, and many more things that aren't job skills for everyone.

Yes, there are kids with learning disabilities who need modifications. But lowering the standards across the board will dumb down highschoool to the point of being meaningless. Folks complain that more and more employers now want to see a college degree. This is why. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by regentrude

[SKL]

14 minutes ago, regentrude said:

that is a dangerous argument since there are also many many paths that do not require a knowledge of history, biology, chemistry, foreign language, literature... by that argument there should not be any standards in school. (and in this country, those standards are already pathetically low compared with other developed countries.)

School is also supposed to teach critical thinking, abstract reasoning, communication skills, a global perspective, and many more things that aren't job skills for everyone.

Yes, there are kids with learning disabilities who need modifications. But lowering the standards across the board will dumb down highschoool to the point of being meaningless. Folks complain that more and more employers now want to see a college degree. This is why. 

But other developed countries generally track non-mathy kids into vocational tracks in the mid-teens (or sooner), and many don't ever graduate from 12th grade.  It's not like other countries manage to will their kids into being mathy.

I would love to invite you over to tutor my kid if you think it's a matter of will.

[Jean in Newcastle]

18 minutes ago, regentrude said:

that is a dangerous argument since there are also many many paths that do not require a knowledge of history, biology, chemistry, foreign language, literature... by that argument there should not be any standards in school. (and in this country, those standards are already pathetically low compared with other developed countries.)

School is also supposed to teach critical thinking, abstract reasoning, communication skills, a global perspective, and many more things that aren't job skills for everyone.

Yes, there are kids with learning disabilities who need modifications. But lowering the standards across the board will dumb down highschoool to the point of being meaningless. Folks complain that more and more employers now want to see a college degree. This is why. 

I agree. Also most states have some alternative paths available to a diploma. 
 

Dh has been dismayed at how many new nurses do not know how to do the math necessary for their jobs. Not every calculation is done by machine and time can be of the essence. Also knowing an estimate of what kind of results you should be getting so that you can immediately see if something is off and can determine if it’s a data entry error or a medical emergency. Math can save lives. 

[Carrie12345]

14 minutes ago, SKL said:

But other developed countries generally track non-mathy kids into vocational tracks in the mid-teens (or sooner), and many don't ever graduate from 12th grade.  It's not like other countries manage to will their kids into being mathy.

I would love to invite you over to tutor my kid if you think it's a matter of will.

There’s also the simple matter of varying maturity and experience. She says, as a repeated college drop out, previous no-homework-doer-high schooler, who stayed up past midnight last night until she understood her statistics lesson and has spent 8+ hours on an English research paper today.

Everyone’s different. In multiple ways.

[Scarlett]

4 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I agree. Also most states have some alternative paths available to a diploma. 
 

Dh has been dismayed at how many new nurses do not know how to do the math necessary for their jobs. Not every calculation is done by machine and time can be of the essence. Also knowing an estimate of what kind of results you should be getting so that you can immediately see if something is off and can determine if it’s a data entry error or a medical emergency. Math can save lives. 

I always say I am not mathy but I have been repeatedly shocked by how many people do not understand practical every day math. 

[lewelma]

There are other types of math that are complex but more useful than algebra to most people. Statistics being the obvious one. Here in NZ, you can complete high school math with Algebra 1, Geometry (including trig), and Statistics. This is an 8th, 9th, 10th grade integrated class. Then in 11th grade you can choose the statistics stream or the calculus stream (which includes algebra 2).

Here are the exams for the 12th grade statistics course. Scroll down to the last 2 - probability concepts and probability distributions. 1.5 hours each, so you have to know your stuff.

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/ncea/assessment/search.do?query=mathematics&view=exams&level=03

These exams are tough. And the expectations for the essay questions are very high. Here are the answers (called assessment schedules):

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/ncea/assessment/search.do?query=mathematics&view=reports&level=03

In addition to these exams, students in this class must write 6 statistics reports that are 4-10 pages typed, that are on t-tests, regression, time series, and simulations. These reports are about framing the question appropriately, data analysis, modelling, interpretation, and asking the hard questions. They focus on finding holes, errors in reasoning, and connecting and comparing the results to the published literature. They are excellent practice for the real world. 

I am in the camp of YES to math throughout highschool, and NO to Algebra 2 being a requirement to graduate. There are other options to keep kids in math.

Edited April 27, 2023 by lewelma

[ScoutTN]

14 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I agree. Also most states have some alternative paths available to a diploma. 
 

Dh has been dismayed at how many new nurses do not know how to do the math necessary for their jobs. Not every calculation is done by machine and time can be of the essence. Also knowing an estimate of what kind of results you should be getting so that you can immediately see if something is off and can determine if it’s a data entry error or a medical emergency. Math can save lives. 

Is this high school math, algebra 1 or something more advanced, or is it basic arithmetic?
 

Everyone needs to be solid in arithmetic including fractions, decimals, and percents. 

Many people are not. As several pp have pointed out, the 5th-8th grade window, when these things should be solidified, is when so many kids get left in the dust. 
 

I found, decades ago, when waiting tables and working as a bank teller in college, that the number of people who cannot do simple arithmetic in their head is astounding. 🙁

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Is this high school math, algebra 1 or something more advanced, or is it basic arithmetic?
 

Everyone needs to be solid in arithmetic including fractions, decimals, and percents. 

Many people are not. As several pp have pointed out, the 5th-8th grade window, when these things should be solidified, is when so many kids get left in the dust. 
 

I found, decades ago, when waiting tables and working as a bank teller in college, that the number of people who cannot do simple arithmetic in their head is astounding. 🙁

Or like the person who told me last week that 7.2 and 7 pounds 2 ounces is the same thing.  
 

Or the sales rep I worked with who was making 300k a year who did not know how to calculate 5% discount.

 

[thatfirstsip]

9 hours ago, lewelma said:

There are other types of math that are complex but more useful than algebra to most people. Statistics being the obvious one. Here in NZ, you can complete high school math with Algebra 1, Geometry (including trig), and Statistics. This is an 8th, 9th, 10th grade integrated class. Then in 11th grade you can choose the statistics stream or the calculus stream (which includes algebra 2).

Here are the exams for the 12th grade statistics course. Scroll down to the last 2 - probability concepts and probability distributions. 1.5 hours each, so you have to know your stuff.

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/ncea/assessment/search.do?query=mathematics&view=exams&level=03

These exams are tough. And the expectations for the essay questions are very high. Here are the answers (called assessment schedules):

https://www.nzqa.govt.nz/ncea/assessment/search.do?query=mathematics&view=reports&level=03

In addition to these exams, students in this class must write 6 statistics reports that are 4-10 pages typed, that are on t-tests, regression, time series, and simulations. These reports are about framing the question appropriately, data analysis, modelling, interpretation, and asking the hard questions. They focus on finding holes, errors in reasoning, and connecting and comparing the results to the published literature. They are excellent practice for the real world. 

I am in the camp of YES to math throughout highschool, and NO to Algebra 2 being a requirement to graduate. There are other options to keep kids in math.

I can confirm that imo, NZ does primary and secondary education the right way. I could go on and on about all of the things they get right that the US does not, from lunch periods to sincere frameworks and respect for Maori integration to the school leaving plans; it's just all so much more carefully planned, implemented, and so much more student -centric. There's at least a real effort to respect the needs of children. I have lots of respect for the NZ education system.

[thatfirstsip]

They get an hour for lunch! outside! (I grant that this is largely a weather issue in most parts of the states but still). 25 minutes for tea at 10:30 in the morning. A real solid plan for kids who might not go to college to start jobs or apprenticeships at 15 to 16, while still being supported by the educational system, without any negative judgment. The minority culture, at least the Maori, is formally recognized and there's ime a continual sincere effort by educators to respect their language, culture, customs, and to adapt education to what makes sense in Maori culture and communities where possible. As a student teacher you have to learn the basics of the language and culture, and are expected to apply them, and to treat Maori customs with the same respect you would European customs; it's unprofessional and impolite not to. 

I'm sure there are lots of failings in that respect, but the baseline expectation just felt different than it does here. 

Plus it's hard to argue with an hour for lunch for high schoolers.

[Murphy101]

10 hours ago, lewelma said:

I am in the camp of YES to math throughout highschool, and NO to Algebra 2 being a requirement to graduate. There are other options to keep kids in math.

Me too. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Is this high school math, algebra 1 or something more advanced, or is it basic arithmetic?
 

Everyone needs to be solid in arithmetic including fractions, decimals, and percents. 

Many people are not. As several pp have pointed out, the 5th-8th grade window, when these things should be solidified, is when so many kids get left in the dust. 
 

I found, decades ago, when waiting tables and working as a bank teller in college, that the number of people who cannot do simple arithmetic in their head is astounding. 🙁

In his case it's the ability to remember certain formulas (that they use with almost every patient) and to know which numbers go where in the formulas.  A lot of it is work with ratios (because medication doses or blood loss or (stuff I don't know about because I'm not a nurse) all seem to work on the basis of ratios because all bodies are different weights and sizes. 

[JumpyTheFrog]

2 hours ago, thatfirstsip said:

They get an hour for lunch! outside!

The cynic in me wonders whether one reason US schools keep lunch so short is because more free time leaves more time for students to bully each other, do drugs, have sex in the bathrooms, etc.

[SKL]

3 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Is this high school math, algebra 1 or something more advanced, or is it basic arithmetic?
 

Everyone needs to be solid in arithmetic including fractions, decimals, and percents. 

Many people are not. As several pp have pointed out, the 5th-8th grade window, when these things should be solidified, is when so many kids get left in the dust. 
 

I found, decades ago, when waiting tables and working as a bank teller in college, that the number of people who cannot do simple arithmetic in their head is astounding. 🙁

I agree, and I believe that the requirement to do more conceptual math in high school makes this worse.  A person who is weak in basic math concepts needs to spend time shoring up basic math concepts, but if you're spending 2 hours a day on algebra already, and taking 5-6 other courses, doing sports, doing practical life things (job, chores, etc.), and having a healthy social life, you aren't going to feel like spending the rest of your time practicing arithmetic.

[Murphy101]

12 minutes ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

The cynic in me wonders whether one reason US schools keep lunch so short is because more free time leaves more time for students to bully each other, do drugs, have sex in the bathrooms, etc.

Sigh. I guess that’s true. But now they only have time to choose one of those things. 

[Renai]

37 minutes ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

The cynic in me wonders whether one reason US schools keep lunch so short is because more free time leaves more time for students to bully each other, do drugs, have sex in the bathrooms, etc.

They started shortening lunch/recess because there is this fallacy that more academic work with little brain rest is the best way to bring students up to par. Never mind that in the younger grades, children learn through play...

[regentrude]

51 minutes ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

The cynic in me wonders whether one reason US schools keep lunch so short is because more free time leaves more time for students to bully each other, do drugs, have sex in the bathrooms, etc.

That is precisely the reason. As are the ridiculously short transition time between different classes in different rooms ( sometimes only 3 minutes!) that do not allow students to go to the bathroom, eat a snack, and grab stuff from their locker. They explicitly say it's "so students don't get in trouble". Back home, elementary school kids have more agency to attend to their bodily needs. I have always been appalled how much like prisons schools are run here.

[JumpyTheFrog]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Back home, elementary school kids have more agency to attend to their bodily needs. I have always been appalled how much like prisons schools are run here.

Did/do the students back home behave better than what is allowed in US schools these days?

[regentrude]

11 minutes ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

Did/do the students back home behave better than what is allowed in US schools these days?

I can only speak to elementary/middle as we experienced that with my kids. The kids manage to stay without a teacher for the 10-15 minute breaks in their classroom. They do not have to line up in the hallway to collectively go to the bathroom with the teacher (as my DD had to in *6th* grade in the US). They get themselves to and from school on their own. They generally have a lot more agency and responsibility, and are not under constant adult surveillance. I'm sure there is bullying,  but it's rampant here in the US as well. My dd wasn't allowed to eat with her class for the entire 5th grade, the kids wouldn't let her sit with them. There was a duty teacher who never said a word about that.

I am not convinced that treating kids like convicts teaches them anything; it is a way to manage kids whose schooling happens under developmentally inappropriate conditions: too long days, windowless classrooms (that wouldn't pass code elsewhere), crappy school food, not enough breaks.

[SKL]

The time between classes has increased since I was in high school.  😛  We only had 2.5 minutes.

I don't know how much of it is wanting the day to be as short as possible, and how much is liability type stuff.  Like if you lose sight of the kid for 30 seconds and she gets knifed or goes and runs in front of a truck, how's that gonna play out?  Though I don't think that was the issue in my day 40 years ago ....  Kids did get pregnant under the bleachers though ... I guess that's always been a thing.  I still don't get how that works, but that's probably me being stupid ....  Some kids would also vandalize school property, so that could be part of it ....

Edited April 27, 2023 by SKL