On testing from The Economist

[Sneezyone]

32 minutes ago, gstharr said:

Heck, I am just joking around. The only time I  would expect to read   meritocratic ideal,  scrap/holes, and lesser cadre/classes in a sentence is in a socialist/communist manisfesto. 

Right. Ha ha. So funny. You’re hilarious.  Maybe crack a book/dictionary? Take a class? Join a book club? Subscribe to a newspaper? These are a few ideas. You are EXACTLY the kind of parent marginalized folks should subject subject their kids to for study group/teams, not.  You’re making this too easy. 🙄

Edited March 17, 2023 by Sneezyone

[gstharr]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Right. Ha ha. So funny. You’re hilarious.  Maybe crack a book/dictionary? Take a class? Join a book club? Subscribe to a newspaper? These are a few ideas. You are EXACTLY the kind of parent marginalized folks should subject subject their kids to for study group/teams, not.  You’re making this too easy. 🙄

Hey  Comrade,  now "marginalized"? Convince me that you are not reading from the Red Book.  But , before you accuse me of belittling marginalized folks, tell me what in my post suggested which group  my kid is in at that school?

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by gstharr

[Sneezyone]

10 minutes ago, gstharr said:

Hey  Comrade,  now "marginalized"? Convince me that you are not reading from the Red Book.  But , before you accuse me of belittling marginalized folks, tell me what in my post suggested which group  my kid is in at that school?

 

You’re not helping. 
 

On a VERY personal note, the parent of my elementary/middle school GATE classmate looked me up on FB two/three years ago. I assume he saw that his son and I had connected via our FB alumni group.

It was the strangest thing. Maybe he was trying to learn more about his kid through ancient connections?? The man was CONSTANTLY challenging my experiences as if he knew more about my elementary, middle, high school memories than I did. His son never said a word. Maybe ol’ dad had been blocked long ago. I didn’t even remember the dad, oddly, despite his son (and a few others) being in an intensive Odyssey of the Mind group for three years. I remember several parents from that time but not him.

It turned out he was emeritus faculty at my law school and probably taught my mother too. I ended up blocking him and, as politely as I could manage, telling him where to go. conservative media is one helluva drug. Bless your heart.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Sneezyone

[SanDiegoMom]

Ok, change of direction: poke holes in my half baked theory for me. College are going test optional because they know that in 2026 (I believe) the student population is going to drop by a large amount and colleges will become less competitive to get into, so they don’t want their selectivity to decrease if scores of accepted students decrease. 
 

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/the-highlight/23428166/college-enrollment-population-education-crash

Edited March 19, 2023 by SanDiegoMom

[regentrude]

On 3/19/2023 at 10:22 AM, SanDiegoMom said:

Ok, change of direction: poke holes in my half baked theory for me. College are going test optional because they know that in 2026 (I believe) the student population is going to drop by a large amount and colleges will become less competitive to get into, so they don’t want their selectivity to decrease if scores of accepted students decrease. 

I doubt that. The test-optional was really taking off with Covid when testing simply wasn't accessible for many students. And once students know there are test optional schools out there, those have an advantage because many students prefer not to jump through the hoop.
Many graduate schools are now no longer requiring the GRE - but grad schools will have a glut of applicants to pick from for the forseeable future. But when that started, all of the students in DS's class simply applied to grad schools which didn't require the GRE. 

[serendipitous journey]

On 3/19/2023 at 8:22 AM, SanDiegoMom said:

Ok, change of direction: poke holes in my half baked theory for me. College are going test optional because they know that in 2026 (I believe) the student population is going to drop by a large amount and colleges will become less competitive to get into, so they don’t want their selectivity to decrease if scores of accepted students decrease. 
 

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/the-highlight/23428166/college-enrollment-population-education-crash

It's a cool idea.  I like to think about it. 

But I do actually believe that the test-optional / not using tests is related, on the whole, to a sincere effort to address inequality as it is seen by the college admission apparatus.  I see a lot of concern, among both professors and staff, about disparities.  Which says nothing pro/con RE effectiveness of this effort. 

Edited March 20, 2023 by serendipitous journey

[Roadrunner]

I think test option policy is smart because Supreme Court is going to strike down affirmative action and colleges won’t be able to take race into account. Without tests or any other quantitative measure, it’s impossible to argue in court that colleges are discriminating by race as in the recent case on behalf of Asian students. I think for colleges it’s a smart way to protect their school and continue the policies they currently have without the fear of being taken to court. 

[Roadrunner]

I think sadly lots of small colleges will fail. I do think there is a tendency to go for budget college (public option) because tuition is so out of control. It’s like Walmartization of education. 

[Not_a_Number]

26 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I think test option policy is smart because Supreme Court is going to strike down affirmative action and colleges won’t be able to take race into account. Without tests or any other quantitative measure, it’s impossible to argue in court that colleges are discriminating by race as in the recent case on behalf of Asian students. I think for colleges it’s a smart way to protect their school and continue the policies they currently have without the fear of being taken to court. 

I'm sure it's still possible... but yes, it's hard to demonstrate quantitatively as easily. 

[Shoeless]

8 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I think sadly lots of small colleges will fail. I do think there is a tendency to go for budget college (public option) because tuition is so out of control. It’s like Walmartization of education. 

How so? I associate Walmart with low quality, but I don't associate public colleges and universities with low quality. 

[Malam]

14 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I think test option policy is smart because Supreme Court is going to strike down affirmative action and colleges won’t be able to take race into account. Without tests or any other quantitative measure, it’s impossible to argue in court that colleges are discriminating by race as in the recent case on behalf of Asian students. I think for colleges it’s a smart way to protect their school and continue the policies they currently have without the fear of being taken to court. 

In the case of Harvard, applicants were rated quantitatively on their personality, and Asians had lower average scores than Whites. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NJYCg1JYEQ&t=534s

[Roadrunner]

6 hours ago, Shoeless said:

How so? I associate Walmart with low quality, but I don't associate public colleges and universities with low quality. 

I meant a large company that resulted in death of many little stores because it was offering a cheaper substitute. So large publics are attracting kids because families are overwhelmed by tuition. I think a lot of small liberal arts schools lose kids to them. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Roadrunner

[Roadrunner]

4 minutes ago, Malam said:

In the case of Harvard, applicants were rated quantitatively on their personality, and Asians had lower average scores than Whites. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NJYCg1JYEQ&t=534s

That as well. But also SAT

https://nypost.com/2018/10/17/harvards-gatekeeper-reveals-sat-cutoff-scores-based-on-race/amp/

[Janeway]

From my experience, colleges that are test optional only admit, or do not want test scores from, those who would be accepted anyway but score below their average. The test optional option really only applies to people like wealthy people who would get in anyway due to donations or prestige, athletes, people who fit demographics they needs to raise their diversity scores, etc. 

[Roadrunner]

24 minutes ago, Janeway said:

From my experience, colleges that are test optional only admit, or do not want test scores from, those who would be accepted anyway but score below their average. The test optional option really only applies to people like wealthy people who would get in anyway due to donations or prestige, athletes, people who fit demographics they needs to raise their diversity scores, etc. 

I wish they would show test optional admit percentage by major, economic status, race, sports recruits, first generation. This sort of clarity could help families understand how to approach their own applications. 

[Malam]

39 minutes ago, Janeway said:

From my experience, colleges that are test optional only admit, or do not want test scores from, those who would be accepted anyway but score below their average. The test optional option really only applies to people like wealthy people who would get in anyway due to donations or prestige, athletes, people who fit demographics they needs to raise their diversity scores, etc. 

Yes, this is a good point. If a legacy/Dean's List/recruit/whatever with a good GPA but low test scores is admitted but does poorly or drops out, the admissions person who vouched for them looks bad, so this risk makes them hesitant to accept that type of student. But if that same student applies test-optional, now there's plausible deniability even if the student does poorly or drops out. Also, the former case brings down their SAT average while the latter case doesn't.

Mind you, this is all specific to colleges where a 1500+ isn't particularly impressive, which are a small minority.

I remember listening to an interview/podcast with an elite LAC admissions person who said they like test optional because (paraphrasing) they'd had to reject otherwise promising candidates due to low scores but never accepted otherwise unimpressive candidates due to high scores (those don't exist when the average SAT is around 1500).

 

I wonder if the adaptive nature of the new SAT gives a higher and more statistically reliable ceiling, which might allow for some scores to be seen as impressive even at T50 schools. I'm not optimistic, though.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Malam

[Frances]

23 hours ago, Malam said:

Yes, this is a good point. If a legacy/Dean's List/recruit/whatever with a good GPA but low test scores is admitted but does poorly or drops out, the admissions person who vouched for them looks bad, so this risk makes them hesitant to accept that type of student. But if that same student applies test-optional, now there's plausible deniability even if the student does poorly or drops out. Also, the former case brings down their SAT average while the latter case doesn't.

Mind you, this is all specific to colleges where a 1500+ isn't particularly impressive, which are a small minority.

I remember listening to an interview/podcast with an elite LAC admissions person who said they like test optional because (paraphrasing) they'd had to reject otherwise promising candidates due to low scores but never accepted otherwise unimpressive candidates due to high scores (those don't exist when the average SAT is around 1500).

 

I wonder if the adaptive nature of the new SAT gives a higher and more statistically reliable ceiling, which might allow for some scores to be seen as impressive even at T50 schools. I'm not optimistic, though.

I’d be pretty surprised if elite colleges (where 1500+ SAT scores are the norm) were actually looking back at admissions decisions for students that do poorly or drop out and blaming it on an admissions person. I spent a summer working in institutional research at an Ivy and the focus was very much doing everything possible to help students succeed and graduate, no matter how long it took. The view was never that poor admission decisions were made.

Now I can see where some colleges that struggle with low graduation rates might be examining data on who they enroll and who graduates in order to boost completion rates. But that’s a very different set of colleges and likely not one where significant time and personnel resources are devoted to admissions decisions.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Frances

[Roadrunner]

I can tell you on an anecdotal level from my friends/local public/neighbors cohort that many kids who were accepted without SAT to UCs into STEM and had low SAT scores  (most took with hopes for private) are swapping out majors into liberal arts. A ton of kids who just couldn’t handle physics or upper level math and are now making in areas that don’t require those classes. They are still thriving and doing well, and will be successful upon graduation but not in STEM. 
Most kids who did really well on AP Calculus scores though are doing just fine in STEM. 

 

[Frances]

33 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I can tell you on an anecdotal level from my friends/local public/neighbors cohort that many kids who were accepted without SAT to UCs into STEM and had low SAT scores  (most took with hopes for private) are swapping out majors into liberal arts. A ton of kids who just couldn’t handle physics or upper level math and are now making in areas that don’t require those classes. They are still thriving and doing well, and will be successful upon graduation but not in STEM. 
Most kids who did really well on AP Calculus scores though are doing just fine in STEM. 

 

That’s sad to hear, as it seems then that these students got STEM seats that didn’t go to students who might have been successful STEM majors. I would think it is far rarer for students to be swapping into STEM majors than into liberal arts type majors due to the sequential nature of often year long prerequisite course sequences.

Based on the experiences of so many people I know including all in my immediate family, I really think STEM degrees are a different beast. And not having students with such interests placed into schools where they are most likely to succeed (see Gladwell talk) is unfortunate on so many levels, especially when we are talking about public universities with impacted majors.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Frances

[SanDiegoMom]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

I can tell you on an anecdotal level from my friends/local public/neighbors cohort that many kids who were accepted without SAT to UCs into STEM and had low SAT scores  (most took with hopes for private) are swapping out majors into liberal arts. A ton of kids who just couldn’t handle physics or upper level math and are now making in areas that don’t require those classes. They are still thriving and doing well, and will be successful upon graduation but not in STEM. 
Most kids who did really well on AP Calculus scores though are doing just fine in STEM. 

 

Are these kids that didn't have access to Science APs?  Here I would assume anyone without a 5 in AP Physics C (both Mech and E and M) would't be accepted to a STEM major, same with Calc BC.

 

 

[Roadrunner]

21 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Are these kids that didn't have access to Science APs?  Here I would assume anyone without a 5 in AP Physics C (both Mech and E and M) would't be accepted to a STEM major, same with Calc BC.

 

 

Our public (which is highly regarded) doesn’t offer physics C exams. We do have AP Bio, AP Chem, and Calculus BC. Only 15 kids make it to BC class and with a few exceptions, all of those are seniors.
Outside of Bay Area and LA/San Diego (we are in neither of those), AP Physics C is unheard of unless you are paying $50k private tuition. Even then top private school in our county doesn’t offer E&M.

And UCs (other than UCLA and UCB) do not take into account AP scores. You can easily get an A in AP Chem in our school and score a 1. 

[Shoeless]

5 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I meant a large company that resulted in death of many little stores because it was offering a cheaper substitute. So large publics are attracting kids because families are overwhelmed by tuition. I think a lot of small liberal arts schools lose kids to them. 

Ok...but maybe some of these tiny, expensive schools should shut down if they aren't offering anything that justifies their high price.

We have one of those expensive, small, mediocre universities in my town. They have some sort of Kohl's pricing scheme going on where they say the price is $32K a year, but they pledge to give enough scholarships so that no student ever pays more than $20K a year for tuition. Ok...But that's still $80K for 4 years, to graduate with a degree in kinesiology.  Most graduates land jobs with starting pay of $36K a year. That's a bad deal. 

[Roadrunner]

10 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

Ok...but maybe some of these tiny, expensive schools should shut down if they aren't offering anything that justifies their high price.

We have one of those expensive, small, mediocre universities in my town. They have some sort of Kohl's pricing scheme going on where they say the price is $32K a year, but they pledge to give enough scholarships so that no student ever pays more than $20K a year for tuition. Ok...But that's still $80K for 4 years, to graduate with a degree in kinesiology.  Most graduates land jobs with starting pay of $36K a year. That's a bad deal. 

I am not arguing for or against. Obviously people make decisions based on perceived value of what is being offered for price, as they should. I myself love little places, but it looks like my kid might be heading to a gigantic one.
I am saying that’s the place I see the trouble coming. We checked financial grade of every little place DS applied. 

[Shoeless]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

I am not arguing for or against. Obviously people make decisions based on perceived value of what is being offered for price, as they should. I myself love little places, but it looks like my kid might be heading to a gigantic one.
I am saying that’s the place I see the trouble coming. We checked financial grade of every little place DS applied. 

The private uni near me has a C- financial rating. Not good. These kids would be better off taking a job at the Toyota factory and applying for the tuition reimbursement program there.  Many of the students that attend this place are minority and/or 1st generation college. It feels predatory from an outside perspective.

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

The private uni near me has a C- financial rating. Not good. These kids would be better off taking a job at the Toyota factory and applying for the tuition reimbursement program there.  Many of the students that attend this place are minority and/or 1st generation college. It feels predatory from an outside perspective.

And international students aren’t going to play $80k for these places either to save them. 

[gstharr]

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I can tell you on an anecdotal level from my friends/local public/neighbors cohort that many kids who were accepted without SAT to UCs into STEM and had low SAT scores  (most took with hopes for private) are swapping out majors into liberal arts. A ton of kids who just couldn’t handle physics or upper level math and are now making in areas that don’t require those classes. They are still thriving and doing well, and will be successful upon graduation but not in STEM. 
Most kids who did really well on AP Calculus scores though are doing just fine in STEM. 

 

This is my experience as well. Over the last 20 years, I have been involved with college admission for over 100 kids graduating from our local well regarded, but solidly middle class,  public high school.  All are children of relatives, friends, and parents who know my backgorund that have asked for me  help with applications.  For this group UC Irvine is their number one choice-- close to home and cheap.  All of these kid get "A' in Ap Chem, Ap Calc AB, and APUSH. They are not  the ones taking 10 AP classess--those kids are aiming for Berkeley.  They get "A"s because teacher include homework, class  participation,  and attendance in the overall grade. Not one that I am aware of has gotten better than a 3 on an AP exam.  But they all get into UC Irvine because of California's top 9% mandate. (https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requirements/freshman-requirements/california-residents/local-guarantee-elc.html)  They alll go to Irvine premed.   But, after freshman year they all changed to liberal arts. .  Not one MD out of a hundred students.   

 

[Shoeless]

34 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

And international students aren’t going to play $80k for these places either to save them. 

No way. I don't think we even have any international students here.  The top degree programs here are business, kinesiology, and nursing. It's all very generic.

[Frances]

19 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

No way. I don't think we even have any international students here.  The top degree programs here are business, kinesiology, and nursing. It's all very generic.

Well nursing would certainly be worth $80k for four years. At least where I live, new nurses start out with higher annual salaries than that, even without any overtime. Personally, I think it’s a great career choice for first generation college students if that is an area of interest. In my state, you pretty much have to have a 4.0 in prerequisite courses to get into any public nursing program and forget about a post-bac public nursing program, your chances are better of getting into medical school. So if a private school that costs $20k per year is turning out nurses who can pass certification exams and get jobs, then that’s a wonderful thing in my book.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Frances

[SeaConquest]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Our public (which is highly regarded) doesn’t offer physics C exams. We do have AP Bio, AP Chem, and Calculus BC. Only 15 kids make it to BC class and with a few exceptions, all of those are seniors.
Outside of Bay Area and LA/San Diego (we are in neither of those), AP Physics C is unheard of unless you are paying $50k private tuition. Even then top private school in our county doesn’t offer E&M.

And UCs (other than UCLA and UCB) do not take into account AP scores. You can easily get an A in AP Chem in our school and score a 1. 

Sacha's current homeschool charter does well with UC admissions and is well-regarded re admissions generally within the CA homeschool charter world. He is still the only kid in the entire school taking the AP test for Calc BC this year (and this charter actually hosts the AP tests -- with accommodations for disabilities !! -- a total unicorn here for CA homeschoolers). And yet, he is the only one taking the test. So, I don't know what is happening in admissions here, but it definitely does seem like fewer kids are taking the AP tests (save for the T-25 gunners), which seems insane if SAT scores are no longer a thing, either. The landscape is very bizarre here.

Edited March 21, 2023 by SeaConquest

[SeaConquest]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

Well nursing would certainly be worth $80k for four years. At least where I live, new nurses start out with higher annual salaries than that, even without any overtime. Personally, I think it’s a great career choice for first generation college students if that is an area of interest. In my state, you pretty much have to have a 4.0 in prerequisite courses to get into any public nursing program and forget about a post-bac public nursing program, your chances are higher of getting into medical school. So if a private school that costs $20k per year is turning out nurses who can pass certification exams and get jobs, then that’s a wonderful thing in my book.

100% this. It was easier for me to get into a T3 law school than it was nursing school in CA. (But, the real bottleneck is clinical sites, and schools cannot expand or open without clinical rotations, as you no doubt know.) 

[Shoeless]

Just now, Frances said:

Well nursing would certainly be worth $80k for four years. At least where I live, new nurses start out with higher annual salaries than that, even without any overtime. Personally, I think it’s a great career choice for first generation college students if that is an area of interest. In my state, you pretty much have to have a 4.0 in prerequisite courses to get into any public nursing program and forget about a post-bac public nursing program, your chances are higher of getting into medical school. So if a private school that costs $20k per year is turning out nurses who can pass certification exams and get jobs, then that’s a wonderful thing in my book.

The nursing program is new, so time will tell if they will be able to pass the exams. 🤷‍♀️

[Frances]

Just now, Shoeless said:

The nursing program is new, so time will tell if they will be able to pass the exams. 🤷‍♀️

It’s likely they added it in order to try and save themselves financially, as it is one of the undergrad degrees with the best return on investment. Several of the LACs local to me are struggling to remain afloat and trying all different strategies. The one with a long time successful nursing program that they even extended to a satellite campus in the closest large city is primarily still viable due to nursing. It’s the only program they have where more people want in than they have spots for.

[Roadrunner]

35 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Sacha's current homeschool charter does well with UC admissions and is well-regarded re admissions generally within the CA homeschool charter world. He is still the only kid in the entire school taking the AP test for Calc BC this year (and this charter actually hosts the AP tests -- with accommodations for disabilities !! -- a total unicorn here for CA homeschoolers). And yet, he is the only one taking the test. So, I don't know what is happening in admissions here, but it definitely does seem like fewer kids are taking the AP tests (save for the T-25 gunners), which seems insane if SAT scores are no longer a thing, either. The landscape is very bizarre here.

Only UCLA and UCB look at AP scores. I heard rumors that potentially UCSD does as well, but o think that’s what happening. 🙂 

[daijobu]

49 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Sacha's current homeschool charter does well with UC admissions and is well-regarded re admissions generally within the CA homeschool charter world. He is still the only kid in the entire school taking the AP test for Calc BC this year (and this charter actually hosts the AP tests -- with accommodations for disabilities !! -- a total unicorn here for CA homeschoolers). And yet, he is the only one taking the test. So, I don't know what is happening in admissions here, but it definitely does seem like fewer kids are taking the AP tests (save for the T-25 gunners), which seems insane if SAT scores are no longer a thing, either. The landscape is very bizarre here.

Is this surprising because there are many students who are studying calculus but not taking the exam?  Or there are a lot of students applying to UC but not interested in APs generally?

(Also:  very cool about the accommodations!!!)

[SanDiegoMom]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Only UCLA and UCB look at AP scores. I heard rumors that potentially UCSD does as well, but o think that’s what happening. 🙂 

I had no idea.  I think that's just plain crazy tbh.  Setting up a lot of kids for failure, and disappointing a lot of others who would have had a good shot. (we had a LOT of disappointed students at our high school this week!) And what metric can they use, if there is not SAT and they aren't looking at AP's? School GPA is great and all, but it really can't predict success in an Engineering school! 

[Roadrunner]

13 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I had no idea.  I think that's just plain crazy tbh.  Setting up a lot of kids for failure, and disappointing a lot of others who would have had a good shot. (we had a LOT of disappointed students at our high school this week!) And what metric can they use, if there is not SAT and they aren't looking at AP's? School GPA is great and all, but it really can't predict success in an Engineering school! 

Yes, they are only concerned if you are taking an AP, not the score you are getting. I was surprised at that as well. 

[SeaConquest]

1 hour ago, daijobu said:

Is this surprising because there are many students who are studying calculus but not taking the exam?  Or there are a lot of students applying to UC but not interested in APs generally?

(Also:  very cool about the accommodations!!!)

I will have to ask. I am not even sure if there is anyone taking Calc AB. I got the impression that he is the only Calc AP at the school, period, which seemed insane to me for a charter that does well with UCs. 

[Roadrunner]

12 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I will have to ask. I am not even sure if there is anyone taking Calc AB. I got the impression that he is the only Calc AP at the school, period, which seemed insane to me for a charter that does well with UCs. 

I bet it’s because those kids DE instead. AP course options at charters are terrible. 

[SanDiegoMom]

@Roadrunner Do you know if they acknowledge National Merit Finalists? And sorry to everyone for this devolving to a UC oriented thread! I won't hijack it any longer after this, promise. 

[Roadrunner]

16 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

@Roadrunner Do you know if they acknowledge National Merit Finalists? And sorry to everyone for this devolving to a UC oriented thread! I won't hijack it any longer after this, promise. 

Not a clue. 
I would assume they treat it just like any other award, but I don’t know how much merit it carries. I know a NM finalist who got denied at UCLA,  and happens to be an outstanding student with perfect grades. 
I know some other states love national merit finalists but here AP and DE seems to rule the admissions.  

[gstharr]

9 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Yes, they are only concerned if you are taking an AP, not the score you are getting. I was surprised at that as well. 

The kids not aiming for the top Ucs don't worry about the AP exams because the scores have nothing to with overall class rank.  A few 'A's from any AP weighted classe gives them more than a 4.0 overall gpa  and places them in that magical 9% mandate.   The kids have been gaming this for a long time.

[gstharr]

8 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

@Roadrunner Do you know if they acknowledge National Merit Finalists? And sorry to everyone for this devolving to a UC oriented thread! I won't hijack it any longer after this, promise. 

My local solidly middle class high school occasionally produces one NM.  The kids don't prep at all for the exam.  The rare student who does earn NM is typically the valedictorian and heads to some outstanding college. But within 4 miles of this school are 3 outstanding public school districts in solidly upper middle class, to low upper class neighborhoods (In So. Cal, some very rich zip codes actually abut some very much lower income zip codes).  The kids at the wealthy public H.Ss. kids start taking the psat in eighth grade.  At 11th grade, the schools each have around  20 NMSF.  The $2500 finalist money means nothing to them. most don't complete the finalist  process.  But it is seems to be a required bump for their  highly  selective college application. So, you would think that my local  middle class h.s.  would put more-or even some- effort into the NM competition considering the output is far more consequential for them.  

[SeaConquest]

4 hours ago, gstharr said:

My local solidly middle class high school occasionally produces one NM.  The kids don't prep at all for the exam.  The rare student who does earn NM is typically the valedictorian and heads to some outstanding college. But within 4 miles of this school are 3 outstanding public school districts in solidly upper middle class, to low upper class neighborhoods (In So. Cal, some very rich zip codes actually abut some very much lower income zip codes).  The kids at the wealthy public H.Ss. kids start taking the psat in eighth grade.  At 11th grade, the schools each have around  20 NMSF.  The $2500 finalist money means nothing to them. most don't complete the finalist  process.  But it is seems to be a required bump for their  highly  selective college application. So, you would think that my local  middle class h.s.  would put more-or even some- effort into the NM competition considering the output is far more consequential for them.  

I was under the impression that NM qualification in CA was another unicorn. I almost never seem to hear about it here. 20 NMSFs from one school seems very impressive.

[Roadrunner]

I didn’t think it was a big deal beyond a scholarship. If you have a near perfect SAT, does NMF matter?

I am not even sure our PS offered PST testing since pandemic. 

[LinRTX]

49 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

If you have a near perfect SAT, does NMF matter

To some schools it does (or did). Especially for scholarships. Her 11th grade PSAT was a fluke test. Foe some reason she did not make semi-finalist. A month later her near perfect SAT was not enough to be considered for top scholarships. But her NMF friends with much lower SAT scores were.

[BusyMom5]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

I didn’t think it was a big deal beyond a scholarship. If you have a near perfect SAT, does NMF matter?

I am not even sure our PS offered PST testing since pandemic. 

If you are willing to go OOS, yes!  So does the Hispanic Recognition from taking the PSAT, which isn't even as high as NMS cut-off.  

[SanDiegoMom]

I am hoping it will matter in that ds can put it in the "awards" section, as he will have very little else that is score oriented (if AP scores really don't matter other than UCLA/UCB).  That and one AIME score. 🤷‍♀️ 

[Roadrunner]

20 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

If you are willing to go OOS, yes!  So does the Hispanic Recognition from taking the PSAT, which isn't even as high as NMS cut-off.  

I understand about scholarships. I am just wondering as an award since it’s basically a high SAT score award. 

[gstharr]

42 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I am hoping it will matter in that ds can put it in the "awards" section, as he will have very little else that is score oriented (if AP scores really don't matter other than UCLA/UCB).  That and one AIME score. 🤷‍♀️ 

My kid had grades and scores, but very weak on competitive awards.  He listed it as an award, along with AP Scholar with Distinction.  He has outstanding college results.   He did not apply to any UC, or any test blind school, because he was relying on test scores.  But, I understand that NMSF on app is an indication to schools that are test blind, that the student most likely did very well on the  SAT.   As to NM scholarship , he had no interest in going to those regions where schools give big money, and free rides,  for finalist.  eta  that AP scholar award  is another signal to test blinds schools that the SAT scores are probably  high.

Edited March 22, 2023 by gstharr

[Roadrunner]

25 minutes ago, gstharr said:

My kid had grades and scores, but very weak on competitive awards.  He listed it as an award, along with AP Scholar with Distinction.  He has outstanding college results.   He did not apply to any UC, or any test blind school, because he was relying on test scores.  But, I understand that NMSF on app is an indication to schools that are test blind, that the student most likely did very well on the  SAT.   As to NM scholarship , he had no interest in going to those regions where schools give big money, and free rides,  for finalist.  eta  that AP scholar award  is another signal to test blinds schools that the SAT scores are probably  high.

Do you have a hook of some sorts?

We are watching all sorts of superstars with NMF and off the charts transcripts not having much results unless they have a hook.