Public School Dyslexia Accommodations (particularly in high school sciences)

[TheReader]

If you have a kid/know a kid with dyslexia and it's noted to their school and they get accommodations for it, can you tell me if the following would or would not be reasonable?

spelling errors on a chemistry quiz

DS is taking chemistry this year at our homeschool co-op; he has relatively severe dyslexia, that's semi-remediated, but he still struggles mightily with spelling, writes slowly, etc. For their 1st day of class, they have to memorize the 1st 30 elements of the periodic table -- fill in the table with the symbol, then write the name, with correct spellings, in the coordinating numbered spaces below the table. 

He  just did the practice quiz (after studying for 2 weeks) and got every symbol correct, and the correct name....but missed about 10 of the spellings. Things like berylium instead of beryllium, or mangenese instead of manganese, etc.  

As his mom/transcript creator, I can either A -- just accept the grade(s) his teacher assigns; B -- push with his teacher to not count off for spelling (at least in instances where it's obvious he got the right answer, vs. a misspelling that could be more than one thing); C -- keep my own grades for him, disregarding the grade reports from her, and accommodate for spelling errors myself. 

I've never had to supply outside grade reports to back up/support transcripts I've made the kids, so option C would not cause any problems that I can foresee....but I don't want to coddle him/provide what I deem as reasonable if it's not really. 

So, back to the question -- if you have/know of a public school kid with accommodations for dyslexia, would spelling errors be excused? Even in Chemistry and the like? 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I didn’t have this scenario in high school but spelling mistakes like that were not an issue in college chemistry. I would go with C (because I have a feeling that I wouldn’t have the patience for B). I would not do A. 

[prairiewindmomma]

You’ve got two separate issues:

1. Can you ethically ignore a co-op grade and assign your own and

2. Do public schools accommodate for spelling with an IEP?

I can answer #2 for you: yes, spelling can absolutely be addressed in an IEP with grades not being affected by minor misspellings. Some other variations of accommodations include oral quizzing instead of written, the use of a laptop with grammarly installed, and multiple choice tests. None of those modify content, and therefore would be considered “normal” grades on a transcript.

[Storygirl]

My teen with dyslexia has an IEP at public school. One of her accommodations is that she is not penalized for misspellings, and it applies to all classes, even science. Even Spanish, which was challenging for her teachers.

Another accommodation that could be appropriate is to have extra time to memorize things. In a public school IEP, it's possible to have an accommodation to get study materials in advance, because dyslexic students may need additional time to commit things to memory.

Another accommodation may be to reduce the volume of work, to have shorter assignments, quizzes and tests with some of the questions crossed off, etc.

All of these can be acceptable accommodations in public school, depending on the student's needs.

[EKS]

24 minutes ago, TheReader said:

For their 1st day of class, they have to memorize the 1st 30 elements of the periodic table -- fill in the table with the symbol, then write the name, with correct spellings, in the coordinating numbered spaces below the table.

This is a totally idiotic assignment.  If it were my kid, I'd be thinking about how to get him into a chemistry class that stresses actual concepts rather than busywork.

26 minutes ago, TheReader said:

C -- keep my own grades for him, disregarding the grade reports from her, and accommodate for spelling errors myself. 

If you have to keep him in the class, this is what I'd do.

26 minutes ago, TheReader said:

So, back to the question -- if you have/know of a public school kid with accommodations for dyslexia, would spelling errors be excused? Even in Chemistry and the like? 

Yes, spelling errors would be accommodated.

[TheReader]

51 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

You’ve got two separate issues:

1. Can you ethically ignore a co-op grade and assign your own and

2. Do public schools accommodate for spelling with an IEP?

I can answer #2 for you: yes, spelling can absolutely be addressed in an IEP with grades not being affected by minor misspellings. Some other variations of accommodations include oral quizzing instead of written, the use of a laptop with grammarly installed, and multiple choice tests. None of those modify content, and therefore would be considered “normal” grades on a transcript.

The co-op does issue grades, and a grade report, but then I create the transcript, so I *think* that (particularly in Texas) I can safely/ethically go through his assignments and, for ex, if I cannot convince his teacher to not mark off for correct spelling, then I can adjust the grades on those assignments only  & recalculate the grade for the course accordingly, and put that grade on the transcript.  At least, I don't personally have an issue with doing that since the transcript isn't provided by the co-op anyway. Or if I decide it's going to be a thing, then I can have him "audit" the course and do my own grading from the get-go. 

49 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

My teen with dyslexia has an IEP at public school. One of her accommodations is that she is not penalized for misspellings, and it applies to all classes, even science. Even Spanish, which was challenging for her teachers.

Another accommodation that could be appropriate is to have extra time to memorize things. In a public school IEP, it's possible to have an accommodation to get study materials in advance, because dyslexic students may need additional time to commit things to memory.

Another accommodation may be to reduce the volume of work, to have shorter assignments, quizzes and tests with some of the questions crossed off, etc.

All of these can be acceptable accommodations in public school, depending on the student's needs.

This is helpful; thank you. His teachers in the past have done things like making sure to have a word bank, allowing him extra time on assignments, allowing him to bring home in-class tests to finish (proctored/supervised) at home (b/c he writes so.very.slowly), etc. 

Other teachers my boys have had have shortened assignments if asked, etc. so I think over all, it should be good. This teacher asked the kids to fill out a "what are your strengths and weaknesses" form, and he put down (three times) that he's slow at note-taking/writes slowly b/c of the dyslexia (and it's on his medical form, and I've made her aware). So, hopefully she'll be reasonable -- from my dealings with her in the past with my older boys, I think she will be. 

40 minutes ago, EKS said:

This is a totally idiotic assignment.  If it were my kid, I'd be thinking about how to get him into a chemistry class that stresses actual concepts rather than busywork.

If you have to keep him in the class, this is what I'd do.

Yes, spelling errors would be accommodated.

LOL! Yes, it's a silly assignment. She assigns it because our co-op only meets for 31 weeks instead of a usual 36 weeks that most curriculum is written around, so she needs them familiar with those 30 from the start. My other boys took her class(es) and she's honestly really fantastic, and the rest of the course will be good -- honestly, it's not much in the way of busywork, aside from this one thing. Similar to his history class, which was fantastic, but also included a requirement to memorize the presidents in order. 

I will ask her about accommodations for him, because he's already stressing out over having to work and do lab reports; I need to find out if she has them sort of as pre-made blanks, or can give me a heads-up to which labs and I can create a fill in the blank for him, or.... because the thing that bogs him down the most in science is not doing the lab, but writing down all the stuff along the way that they have to record...by the time he's gotten it written down, the lab has moved on (or he feels rushed by his lab partner(s) and so doesn't get everything written down and then can't complete the lab report properly. So, I will be asking her about that, once I have a chance to look at the stuff he did in lab yesterday. 

[TheReader]

Thanks, everyone! 

I'll keep my own grades for him, adjusted for the spelling errors, and go from there. 

[Clemsondana]

One thought - if you end up using a different grade than what is assigned at the co-op, list the class as a resource (like the way you might list Great Courses or something like that) rather than calling it an outsourced class.  I'm completely comfortable with families using the class that I teach in a different way, but I'm not as comfortable with saying their student earned an A in Clemsondana's outsourced class when I show them having an 85%.  But, if they say that they used the textbook and included lectures from Clemsondana, then it's fine.  It's a small thing and may not be relevant for your situation, but locally umbrella schools automatically award honors credit for certain classes because they've seen what they entail, so the grade needs to actually come from my assessment of their work in the class.  And, I do make accommodations for all sorts of things, including dyslexia.  But, as best I can tell from friends' kids, the school system in at least a couple fo states is not required to do anything for dyslexia because of how it's classified, unless there is already an IEP for other issues - in that case, then they have to accommodate the dyslexia...which seems crazy to me.  

[TheReader]

Just now, Clemsondana said:

One thought - if you end up using a different grade than what is assigned at the co-op, list the class as a resource (like the way you might list Great Courses or something like that) rather than calling it an outsourced class.  I'm completely comfortable with families using the class that I teach in a different way, but I'm not as comfortable with saying their student earned an A in Clemsondana's outsourced class when I show them having an 85%.  But, if they say that they used the textbook and included lectures from Clemsondana, then it's fine.  It's a small thing and may not be relevant for your situation, but locally umbrella schools automatically award honors credit for certain classes because they've seen what they entail, so the grade needs to actually come from my assessment of their work in the class.  And, I do make accommodations for all sorts of things, including dyslexia.  But, as best I can tell from friends' kids, the school system in at least a couple fo states is not required to do anything for dyslexia because of how it's classified, unless there is already an IEP for other issues - in that case, then they have to accommodate the dyslexia...which seems crazy to me.  

That is a good point; I'll be sure and list it that way on the transcript. Thank you! 

[Lecka]

I just want to point out, there can still be problems.

One, will your son feel bad about how chemistry is going, because of this?  Is the chemistry teacher someone who might judge him negatively?

Two, will your son go along with your decision to issue a different grade?

I totally, 100% think you are making a reasonable decision.

But with my own son, what I think is reasonable is NOT what he thinks is reasonable.  

Things I think should work or not work for him, do not meet his own goals or experiences.

My son, personally, refused accommodations for several years.  Then he was only willing to have them when he was ready to have them.  And then he is very particular for what accommodations he will accept.  
 

It won’t work at all for me to do it on his behalf.  
 

He is like that, though.

I think another argument is that at a certain point he needs to talk to his teacher.  
 

I will also mention, what about notes and note checks.  These are an issue here.  My son can spell but his handwriting is so bad.  He has the option of teacher notes but it is up to him to ask for them as he chooses to ask for them.

 

My son is a Senior this year so we are definitely thinking about him going to college next year and needing to deal with things himself.  
 

 

[Storygirl]

Oh, about note taking. In public school, students can have "guided notes," which are fill in the blank, to help students who are slow at note taking or who have trouble taking notes.

If the co-op teacher is a mom teaching the science class, the teacher's ability to accommodate for different students' needs may be more limited. If it is a hired, trained teacher, she should be more aware. With that said, we have often had to have meetings with our public school teachers (even the intervention specialists) to discuss exactly what kind of things have helped our kids and why certain things are in their IEPs.

If I were you, I would ask for a teacher conference.

[Lecka]

I guess I would say — I’m assuming your son saw his paper come back marked up.  What was his reaction?

 

My son’s on the difficult side with this stuff but unless your son seems really fine with your idea and he doesn’t care to have some redemption with his teacher or experience his papers returned to him with a reasonably adjusted grade, then I think it’s worth seeing what he thinks.  
 

And will it be fine with him for you to adjust his grade?

 

Again — I think it’s completely reasonable and a good idea.  But I wouldn’t be able to do it because it wouldn’t work for my son.

 

I think it has helped him too when he does talk to his teacher.  It helps him to put out a message he cares and is doing good work for him, and then what almost always happens (especially in higher grades) is the teacher affirms him and then he feels better about the class and teacher.  
 

He is someone who is sensitive to teachers and when he feels like they aren’t going to judge him or whatever. 
 

I don’t really know.  

[Lecka]

I agree about the teacher conference.

Especially if it is okay with your son lol.  
 

I think it can depend on age and prior classroom experiences.  
 

For a little while I discuss emails with my son and he can read them before I send them and can veto me even sending them.

 

Because — I can’t make him participate in a class, he is like that, and he had a long phase of needing to feel independent.  
 

He had a lot of therapy and remediation when he was young and I have been told how he was can happen with that situation.  
 

He can have a higher need to be independent because he felt less independent when he was younger.  
 

He also had a learned helplessness phase and went from that to not wanting help (with some things) and being prickly.

 

He spent a lot of time in speech and OT, and learning to read was not a great experience.  

[Lecka]

The other thing is that after his learned helplessness phase I am not going to do anything he doesn’t like wrt a class where he is engaged and doing what he is supposed to do!

[Drama Llama]

46 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

But, as best I can tell from friends' kids, the school system in at least a couple fo states is not required to do anything for dyslexia because of how it's classified, unless there is already an IEP for other issues - in that case, then they have to accommodate the dyslexia...which seems crazy to me.  

That isn't true.  Many kids with dyslexia qualify under the umbrella category of specific learning disabilities, just like many kids with cerebral palsy qualify under the umbrella category of physical disabilities, or many kids with apraxia qualify under the umbrella category of speech language impairment.  

Now, not all kids with dyslexia will qualify, because there are multiple elements to special education qualification, but the fact that IDEA uses broader categories, rather than specific labels, has nothing to do with why some kids with dyslexia qualify and some kids don't.  There are no disabilities where qualifying for special education is automatic based on a diagnosis, you still have to meet the other elements.  

[Terabith]

My kid has dyslexia, and has an IEP for a specific learning disability.  IEPs absolutely can have accommodations for spelling on them.  We have not been able to get that added to my kid's IEP, which really worried me, because she spells at about a second or MAYBE third grade level, despite years of OG tutoring and reading well above grade level.  But it honestly has not been an issue because nobody has ever taken off for spelling.  They hardly ever write anything by hand or without spellcheck.  My kid has consistently scored above average on writing exams.  

So I would have no issues with adjusting the grade, with the caveat of saying something like "as part of a course utilizing x."  

[Drama Llama]

Here, there are four ways that spelling accommodations is commonly accommodated on IEPs and 504's.

1) Spelling does not factor into grading for assignments and assessments completed 100% in the classroom, other than spelling tests in English or a second language.

2) Student is allowed to use a computer with word prediction and/or spellcheck for written assignment and assessments in the classroom. 

3) Student is able to dictate some (e.g. only longer constructed responses) or all written assignments and assessments, either using speech to text, or a human scribe.

4) Student is given extended time on assignments completed partially or fully at home, to allow time for the student to use someone to proofread (e.g. as a special educator, students have an opportunity to bring a paper to me and work on it with me before submitting it to a general education teacher)

 

[Clemsondana]

42 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

That isn't true.  Many kids with dyslexia qualify under the umbrella category of specific learning disabilities, just like many kids with cerebral palsy qualify under the umbrella category of physical disabilities, or many kids with apraxia qualify under the umbrella category of speech language impairment.  

Now, not all kids with dyslexia will qualify, because there are multiple elements to special education qualification, but the fact that IDEA uses broader categories, rather than specific labels, has nothing to do with why some kids with dyslexia qualify and some kids don't.  There are no disabilities where qualifying for special education is automatic based on a diagnosis, you still have to meet the other elements.  

It's been a few years - my discussions with both families were probably 4-5 years ago.  I'm not really arguing about what the laws are, just what happened with these kids.  Our co-op has always had an inordinate number of dyslexic kids for the same reason - I heard more than one parent say that if they were going to have to do all of the accommodating themselves, then they might as well have the flexibility of choosing what was studied.  In most cases, I think that the schools were willing to make adaptations around spelling or time, but they didn't seem to actually do anything proactive to help the kids.  In my area, the university has a big speech program and the schools are fairly proactive around getting kids into speech therapy in the schools, but they didn't seem to do much for these kids. One had a rough time but graduated and just started at a small college (junior college? not sure) that has a focus on helping dyslexic kids.  The other went to small private schools when younger and is now involved in the agriculture-related programs at their public school.  

[TravelingChris]

7 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

  But, as best I can tell from friends' kids, the school system in at least a couple fo states is not required to do anything for dyslexia because of how it's classified, unless there is already an IEP for other issues - in that case, then they have to accommodate the dyslexia...which seems crazy to me.  

Which states?   Because, first of all,  the term dyslexia is not used in the DSM. It was reading disability or something like that.   I thought it was a very stupid change since dyslexia is not just about reading but aldo writing, math, etc.   

Secondly, IEP regulations and accomodationsa are all regulated by the feds. So if anyone in one oc those states id n9t getting proper accommodations in a public school, thst is a waiting lawsuit.

.  

[Tanaqui]

So this conversation has drifted a bit, but here's what we've found, personally:

1. Not only is it very reasonable to have a "no markdowns for spelling errors" provision in an IEP, but it's one of the easiest accommodations to actually *get*, and also one of the ones you're most likely to see teachers actually follow through on without your having to be That Parent.

2. Public schools are, in general, extremely reluctant to even admit dyslexia exists, much less actually deal with it. And they will absolutely lie to parents about what they are or are not required and/or able to do to accommodate or remediate. Oh, sure, there are schools and school districts that don't play that game - but this is rampant, as near as I can tell, throughout the Anglosphere, even if the accommodations really don't require any extra work or money.

[Melissa in Australia]

11 hours ago, TheReader said:

 

So, back to the question -- if you have/know of a public school kid with accommodations for dyslexia, would spelling errors be excused? Even in Chemistry and the like? 

I haven't read any of the other response. I have only University experience and it was all science /mathematics

 My oldest ds was diagnosed with Profound Dyslexia just before starting University.  He sat 2 days of testing with the testing psychologist the university recommended for his formal assessment of his dyslexia and the list of accommodations needed. He studied Aerospace engineering with honors - he got on the deans list as well. Some of the accommodations he was offered for  university were

He chose not to use these ones

He could have a scribe provided by the university for assessments

offered alternate forms of assessment- like hands on tasks instead of written exams 

He used this

extended time for exams. He was given an extra 30 minutes per hour of exam. as his exams were  3 1/2 to 4 hours long it made for a long exam. and he did his exam in a separate room from the exam hall.  People with dyslexia process written info slower

 he used things like Grammarly and advances spell checkers when doing regular assignments 

 

He now works as a research Scientist for the Australian Government and is also studying his PHD - without any accommodations needed now

 

[TheReader]

Thanks, everyone! 

@Lecka -- he actually has the quiz today, and is concerned about the spelling/stressed about being a slow note-taker/lab report writer for the written work in class. He did communicate to the teacher already what his weaknesses are, so we'll see how she responds. She's a great lady, and I have no doubt she'll encourage him and affirm him, and likely will excuse or go lenient on the spelling if he asks. 

If not, I think my son will be relieved to know that we "have his back" on this and will adjust those grades accordingly, and note the course on his transcript in a way that reflects it was sort of a joint venture/graded by mom class, not a full outside course graded by someone else. 

I know she'll also allow extra time on assignments and things as needed; if she can provide guided notes for lab, that will be ideal; if not, we'll figure something out. 

[Lecka]

My son is a little worse test-taker than would be expected compared to how well he seems to know the material.  
 

I wouldn’t describe him as a poor test-taker, but he is not that person who thrives in testing situations and pulls things off.  I would describe myself as that type of person 😉. My kids aren’t but they don’t think they should be that way, either.  
 

But I think this is a reason the affirming teacher is so important.  
 

My son has an accommodation of typing now but he won’t use it most of the time.  However — a lot of his work is typed anyway so that has taken the pressure off.  But science classes are ones where he does hand write.  
 

He refused an accommodation of extra time, saying he doesn’t need it.

 

 

[Lecka]

But it can be revisited if he runs into trouble with time, down the road.  He has got testing to where the counselor said he could have extra time on his 504 plan, and he said he absolutely didn’t need it, so she left it off.  
 

It was still a big step in the right direction for him 🙂

 

Your son sounds very mature!!!!!!!!

 

Good for him for already talking to the teacher!!!!!!!!!!!!!  That is awesome 🙂

[Kanin]

13 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

But, as best I can tell from friends' kids, the school system in at least a couple fo states is not required to do anything for dyslexia because of how it's classified, unless there is already an IEP for other issues - in that case, then they have to accommodate the dyslexia...which seems crazy to me.

A lot of places don't use the term dyslexia. They use "specific learning disability in reading" instead. (How is that specific.... don't ask me! The terminology bugs me to no end.)

So, if a kid is having trouble reading, and is tested and score poorly, they'll be called a student with a specific learning disability in reading. They might not be called dyslexic but they likely are. If they struggle enough to adversely effect their academics, they'll receive special ed services in reading. 

My district doesn't like to use the term dyslexic because they claim there's no one universally accepted definition, so using the term will be confusing. I think that excuse is BS personally. 

[Storygirl]

OP, I'm glad you have figured out a plan. I'm not sure from your post whether you are leaving things up to your son completely, or if you will be talking to the teacher. I wonder if it would help for you to create a document to send to teachers at the beginning of every new class. Like a homemade IEP, though it would not have to be modeled after an IEP.

Because these things are likely to come up repeatedly.

Also, things that are issues in high school are likely to also be issues in college. So, if you have not already, I would encourage you to get official documentation from a professional evaluator, which can recommend accommodations. Then he can ask for accommodations from the disability office of his future university. They won't accept "homeschool mom's opinion" but will need something official.

Then you would also be able to provide the list of official suggested accommodations to co-op teachers, while he is still in high school.

[Storygirl]

The other issue with dyslexia is that many/most students with dyslexia need a specific kind of reading intervention in order for the dyslexia to be remediated. And public schools very/most often do not have teachers trained to do this, and if they do, they may reserve it for the "worst" cases, because they don't have the staff to offer the intervention to all students who would benefit.

It's a major, major problem and is the reason that private dyslexia schools exist in some areas. We were fortunate to live near one and sent DD17 there for three years.

So often schools may offer reading intervention to students with dyslexia, but not the kind that they need. It should not actually be that they deny that the problem exists. But 1) they may not understand dyslexia or have the tools to address it; 2) they may not have the funding to pay for specialized teachers; 3) schools do not actually test for dyslexia during evaluations but just test for reading disabilities (which may or may not be related to dyslexia).

I was appalled at some discussions I had with my MIL when I suspected DD had dyslexia. MIL was THE reading specialist for a school for 30 years. She knew nothing about dyslexia. At all. I think about all of the kids over the years who went through intervention with her who never got proper help, and it makes me sad. Now, MIL was a great lady who cared, but she had no special training.

MIL retired in the 90s, and schools are much more on top of hiring intervention specialists now. But still, dyslexia training is NOT included in most teacher training programs, even for intervention specialists. People have to seek out training for it.

I am not an expert, but this is what I've learned from the dyslexia school that DD attended, and from our own experiences as a homeschooler, private schooler, and public schooler.

[LaughingCat]

My older DD had a 504 plan for dyslexia starting in middle school - Here is what it said at end of high school:

1. Preferential Seating in classroom environment where most conducive to her learning.
2. Appropriate extended time up to 50% for assignments and assessments (test, quizzes) when advocated for in
advance.
3. Alternative testing location provided when advocated for in advance.
4. Use of assisted technology as need and available, such as recorded books.
5. Access to differentiated printed class-notes when deem appropriate.
6. Use of scribe for writing assignments if needed.

She used the extended time extensively for both assignments and tests/quizzes.  Also used the recorded books and use of scribe -- both of which I had to fight to get included and had to provide myself (i.e. bought audio books or read aloud to her -- and did the scribing when needed although as she matured that turned more into copy editing/proof reading)

It did not include spelling, however, as someone above said, spelling was never an issue because EITHER the teacher did not mark off for that OR work was done on the computer which had spell check and grammerly (and mom as proof reader)

  Regarding some of the other points people have made:

• I had to get her tested myself
• 504 states 'dyslexia' for the issue (created ~ 7 years ago)
• the middle school teachers were focused on grades --in their view, DD did not have a problem because she got good grades 
• the school put her in a 'reading remediation' class in 7th grade in direct response to my requesting the 504 plan--it was focused on understanding issues not reading issues (the difference IMO shows best when a passage is read aloud to the student -- even with low working memory my DD could easily answer questions when the passage was read aloud & same for answers -- she could speak the answer clearly and at grade level when her written answer looked like a 2nd graders ) 

[Lecka]

My son is diagnosed with dysgraphia. As far as dyslexia his report said something along the lines of “evidence of prior reading problems since remediated.”

Thats because his phonemic awareness and word attack scores were lower than would be expected from other scores.  But they were decent, acceptable scores after remediation.  
 

The truth is I got too busy with my son with autism.  
 

But there are a lot of people who think you still have a dyslexia style even after reading has been remediated and is pretty okay.  Or is not a barrier, as I have picked up saying 😉

 

I think it’s a complicated subject, and many kids are poorly served by schools, but at the same time, I think IDEA and other federal special needs legislation was designed to address very legitimate needs, but there can be (and often is) an area of need left for dyslexia.  But I think that doesn’t mean special needs legislation isn’t doing good at addressing things that were lacking.  
 

I hope dyslexia will be a need that is better met in the future.  
 

The thing, is many or most kids with dyslexia should be in regular education and receive remediation.  
 

I don’t think it takes anything away from IDEA that it doesn’t account well for this.

 

But I do think it should be accounted for.

 

Where we have lived a student is not allowed to be receiving “RTI” “Response to Intervention” and “Special Education” services at the same time.

 

It’s like there are two separate paths, to some extent.  
 

I agree with Baseball and Hockey very strongly, but I also agree there should be so much more done for students with dyslexia.  

[Lecka]

I really just shudder to think where my son would be now if I didn’t have access to the Internet and this forum and a yahoo group, to find out how to help him and curriculums to order.

 

I can’t even think about it.  
 

 

[LaughingCat]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

My son is diagnosed with dysgraphia. As far as dyslexia his report said something along the lines of “evidence of prior reading problems since remediated.”

Thats because his phonemic awareness and word attack scores were lower than would be expected from other scores.  But they were decent, acceptable scores after remediation.  
 

The truth is I got too busy with my son with autism.  
 

But there are a lot of people who think you still have a dyslexia style even after reading has been remediated and is pretty okay.  Or is not a barrier, as I have picked up saying 😉

<cut the rest because I don't have any comment on the RTI vs special education>

I think part of the issue is not all dyslexics react the same to different programs as well (and of course there is dependency on the teacher's ability as well).

My DD's phonological memory score when tested prior to 7th was in the <1% (overall phonological score <5%) -- even after many hours spent doing Orton Gillingham phonemic remediation techniques. 

 IMO as far as programs, improvement in her reading came from switching to doing hours of repetition of reading simple words in lists (Dancing Bears) and then moving to a syllable based program (REWARDS) which had similar high repetition of memorizing by sight (except syllables vs simple words).    She had already put in hours of repetition of phonemes in the Orton Gillingham program with little improvement.  IMO that means she had to build alternate tracks in her brain to read -- because the phonological track wasn't ever going to cut it.    She reads very well now -- but still very slowly which makes it still a barrier for her requiring extra time (and I think she'd still test just as badly in the phonological area). 

ETA: by hours I mean hours every week for each program over many years

Edited August 25, 2022 by LaughingCat

[Drama Llama]

11 hours ago, Kanin said:

A lot of places don't use the term dyslexia. They use "specific learning disability in reading" instead. (How is that specific.... don't ask me! The terminology bugs me to no end.)

In other countries, and to some degree in the US at the time when IDEA was first written, it is common to use the term "learning disabilities" to encompass what we in the US now call Intellectual Disabilities.  ID Is a global disability.  Most individuals with ID will need extra time or support to learn any skill.  They take longer to learn everything from how to brush their teeth, or how to walk, or how to read or do math.  We call a disability that impacts many domains like that "global". 

In contrast, a characteristic of kids with specific learning disabilities is that their profile is uneven.  My kid with LD has specific problems with math, and some executive functioning issues.  On the other hand there are lots of things he does as well as any other 15 year old, and some things like swimming and listening comprehension that came really easily to him, where he developed skills earlier than average, and continues to perform better than average.  His disabilities are specific because they only impact specific skills, and there are areas of his life where he doesn't need any accommodation at all.  

11 hours ago, Kanin said:

So, if a kid is having trouble reading, and is tested and score poorly, they'll be called a student with a specific learning disability in reading. They might not be called dyslexic but they likely are. If they struggle enough to adversely effect their academics, they'll receive special ed services in reading. 

My district doesn't like to use the term dyslexic because they claim there's no one universally accepted definition, so using the term will be confusing. I think that excuse is BS personally. 

The disability categories that qualify for special education are listed in federal law, but are defined in state law.   School systems need to figure out which category kids qualify under, because federal and state funding depends on it.  The federal and state laws might be BS, but it's not BS for a school system to say that they need to describe the disability using terms that the government requires them to lose. 

22 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

 In my area, the university has a big speech program and the schools are fairly proactive around getting kids into speech therapy in the schools, but they didn't seem to do much for these kids. 

One thing I see from parents of kids with this particular diagnosis is that they often think that the special education programs serve everyone except their own students.  There are universal problems in special education in many places such as lack of curriculum and training for special educators; inadequate student:teacher ratios; lack of administrator support, etc . . .  Those problems impact kids in every disability category.  I can pretty much guarantee that school systems that aren't providing research based instruction for kids with dyslexia, aren't providing research based instruction for kids with ID.  That schools that think that every kid who struggles with reading can use the same intervention (even if it's a comprehension intervention for a kid who needs systematic structured phonics, or vice versa) are also thinking that every kid with ID should get Touch Math, or shouldn't get reading instruction at all.  

Yes, school systems give kids with SLI speech therapy, but it's likely 30 minutes a week in a group of 4 kids with 4 different conditions, from a speech therapist who has no training on research based programs for that kid's specific needs.  That's no more help to a kid with a diagnosis like aphasia or CAS than 30 minutes a week of group comprehension work is for a kid with dyslexia.

So, I'm not saying that kids with dyslexia are well served in special education.  In many places they aren't.  It's just that it has nothing to do with the question of labels, and it's a much more universal problem. 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Baseballandhockey

[Clemsondana]

1 hour ago, Baseballandhockey said:

In other countries, and to some degree in the US at the time when IDEA was first written, it is common to use the term "learning disabilities" to encompass what we in the US now call Intellectual Disabilities.  ID Is a global disability.  Most individuals with ID will need extra time or support to learn any skill.  They take longer to learn everything from how to brush their teeth, or how to walk, or how to read or do math.  We call a disability that impacts many domains like that "global". 

In contrast, a characteristic of kids with specific learning disabilities is that their profile is uneven.  My kid with LD has specific problems with math, and some executive functioning issues.  On the other hand there are lots of things he does as well as any other 15 year old, and some things like swimming and listening comprehension that came really easily to him, where he developed skills earlier than average, and continues to perform better than average.  His disabilities are specific because they only impact specific skills, and there are areas of his life where he doesn't need any accommodation at all.  

The disability categories that qualify for special education are listed in federal law, but are defined in state law.   School systems need to figure out which category kids qualify under, because federal and state funding depends on it.  The federal and state laws might be BS, but it's not BS for a school system to say that they need to describe the disability using terms that the government requires them to lose. 

One thing I see from parents of kids with this particular diagnosis is that they often think that the special education programs serve everyone except their own students.  There are universal problems in special education in many places such as lack of curriculum and training for special educators; inadequate student:teacher ratios; lack of administrator support, etc . . .  Those problems impact kids in every disability category.  I can pretty much guarantee that school systems that aren't providing research based instruction for kids with dyslexia, aren't providing research based instruction for kids with ID.  That schools that think that every kid who struggles with reading can use the same intervention (even if it's a comprehension intervention for a kid who needs systematic structured phonics, or vice versa) are also thinking that every kid with ID should get Touch Math, or shouldn't get reading instruction at all.  

Yes, school systems give kids with SLI speech therapy, but it's likely 30 minutes a week in a group of 4 kids with 4 different conditions, from a speech therapist who has no training on research based programs for that kid's specific needs.  That's no more help to a kid with a diagnosis like aphasia or CAS than 30 minutes a week of group comprehension work is for a kid with dyslexia.

So, I'm not saying that kids with dyslexia are well served in special education.  In many places they aren't.  It's just that it has nothing to do with the question of labels, and it's a much more universal problem. 

 

I don't know how good the speech therapy is - I know that they do early intervention speech therapy to try to get kids helped before they get to K(I think they start at 3), but they do it through the schools.  Speech therapy is also one of the services offered to homeschoolers, although we did ours through the university.  They don't catch everybody, but we know several kids who have been helped with the school interventions.  It did seem to be mostly in groups, but they seemed to have the groups divided by what they were working on, at least with the kids that we knew, and some kids seemed to be individual.  But, as to the not helping everybody...one of the moms that had an unhelped dyslexic kid had multiple kids with issues - 1 with a processing issue, another with ADHD and bipolar, and then one with dyslexia.  She's also had hundreds of foster kids through her home - she's very well acquainted with the system. Different ones of her kids have spent time in a small private school because she said that, while the school offered no special programs and was actually pretty inflexible, her kids could actually get taught.  I think her dyslexic kid was there so that he'd get phonics and actually learn ot read.  All of them had issues, but friend knew that 2 of her kids had unusual combos of problems.  She was kind of amazed that something more common, like dyslexia, didn't get any particular help. 

Having volunteered as a tutor, I know that lots of kids fall through the cracks. I've spent many frustrating afternoons trying to help a kid read a story with sentences like 'My family watched the summer Olympics on the TV in our living room' when the kid couldn't reliably sound out CVC words and I've attempted to help kids with equivalent fractions while realizing that they didn't know how to multiply or divide, and maybe not add or subtract.  One of my tutoring victories was talking to anybody who would listen about how one of the kids had problems beyond needing a mom to fix...I had spent a year trying to teach kid to add...and they got a math specialist and within a year he had gotten to multiplying.  It was glorious.  So, I know that there are a lot of problems.  But, if my friend, with her knowledge of the system and her education (she's a college instructor) couldn't get help for her kid without going to a private school, I'm guessing that there isn't much being done for a whole host of kids.  For the other mom, she said that she'd find things that were supposed to be able to help - colored paper/colored filter to place over reading, etc, and the attitude seemed to be something like 'If you want to do that, you can, but it's not our job to provide it'...which, for her kid, was OK because she'd do whatever she needed, but when even simple things like that aren't being done for kids whose families have no clue...that sort of seems like the least that the schools could do.  

[TheReader]

12 hours ago, Storygirl said:

OP, I'm glad you have figured out a plan. I'm not sure from your post whether you are leaving things up to your son completely, or if you will be talking to the teacher. I wonder if it would help for you to create a document to send to teachers at the beginning of every new class. Like a homemade IEP, though it would not have to be modeled after an IEP.

Because these things are likely to come up repeatedly.

Also, things that are issues in high school are likely to also be issues in college. So, if you have not already, I would encourage you to get official documentation from a professional evaluator, which can recommend accommodations. Then he can ask for accommodations from the disability office of his future university. They won't accept "homeschool mom's opinion" but will need something official.

Then you would also be able to provide the list of official suggested accommodations to co-op teachers, while he is still in high school.

We do have his formal evaluation from when he was 7 and first diagnosed; at that time, the suggestions in the report were things like audio resources because the evaluator did not think he would ever learn to read. 

We have informal reports from when he was 10-ish and we had him evaluated for autism, which they decided he did not have, but did identify the dyslexia as being one of the worst levels/most severe at his age as they had seen (granted, autism specialists, not dyslexia or reading or educational specialists). 

I have wondered if we should have the testing redone....we made zero progress with things until we started using Barton; his reading is pretty well caught up, and we've stalled out, but I should continue and perhaps that will help with everything else. That would also have updated suggestions. 

4 hours ago, LaughingCat said:

My older DD had a 504 plan for dyslexia starting in middle school - Here is what it said at end of high school:

1. Preferential Seating in classroom environment where most conducive to her learning.
2. Appropriate extended time up to 50% for assignments and assessments (test, quizzes) when advocated for in
advance.
3. Alternative testing location provided when advocated for in advance.
4. Use of assisted technology as need and available, such as recorded books.
5. Access to differentiated printed class-notes when deem appropriate.
6. Use of scribe for writing assignments if needed.

She used the extended time extensively for both assignments and tests/quizzes.  Also used the recorded books and use of scribe -- both of which I had to fight to get included and had to provide myself (i.e. bought audio books or read aloud to her -- and did the scribing when needed although as she matured that turned more into copy editing/proof reading)

It did not include spelling, however, as someone above said, spelling was never an issue because EITHER the teacher did not mark off for that OR work was done on the computer which had spell check and grammerly (and mom as proof reader)

  Regarding some of the other points people have made:

• I had to get her tested myself
• 504 states 'dyslexia' for the issue (created ~ 7 years ago)
• the middle school teachers were focused on grades --in their view, DD did not have a problem because she got good grades 
• the school put her in a 'reading remediation' class in 7th grade in direct response to my requesting the 504 plan--it was focused on understanding issues not reading issues (the difference IMO shows best when a passage is read aloud to the student -- even with low working memory my DD could easily answer questions when the passage was read aloud & same for answers -- she could speak the answer clearly and at grade level when her written answer looked like a 2nd graders ) 

This is helpful! Thank you. 

Most of his teachers have been great, and I think this one will be, too; we did have him evaluated (see above), but yes, we will need to likely revisit all of this as he heads to college. An updated evaluation is likely a good idea. 

[Storygirl]

I've been told that colleges want to see evaluations that are done at age 16 or older and within two or three years of college entrance.

[Drama Llama]

6 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I've been told that colleges want to see evaluations that are done at age 16 or older and within two or three years of college entrance.

The college counselor where i used to teach says the sweet spot is the summer before Jr. year, so early enough to use it for accommodations for PSAT and SAT/ACT, and late enough that colleges will accept it for disability services.  

[LaughingCat]

14 hours ago, Storygirl said:

I've been told that colleges want to see evaluations that are done at age 16 or older and within two or three years of college entrance.

I was told similar for college (and SAT accommodations) -- however my DD got both without redoing the evaluation done before 7th grade

SAT: school system used PSAT tests for their yearly school testing starting in high school -- the high school counselor suggested we just submit what we had and see what they said in spring of freshman year (which was not quite 3 years after the testing) then never had to resubmit for SAT

College: they requested proof of the 504 from her school and letter from the counselor -- and gave her extended time for tests in a quiet environment with no issue (for all tests, not just on request like the high school had) and a list of additional things she could request as needed.   I'm sure this varies from college to college though.