Flank pain...

[Soror]

I started having pain maybe a couple of months ago. Cut back on salt and it seemed to improve. IDK it's been crazy so maybe I'm imagining things and so much can be attributed to stress.

Towards the end of vaca I noticed it at night towards the end of our trip but it improved when we got back home. Now it's back again and worse. It is predominantly on my left side but some on right side. It is mostly dull but if I breath deeply or bend over it is a bit sharp.

Google says maybe UTI, kidney infection/stones-- -but I have no fever or chills. It doesn't hurt when I urinate. I do go frequently feel like I have trouble emptying my bladder at times. Like even after I go I still feel I need to. I just came back from 3 weeks overseas and started my period. I'm a bit fatigued from the adjustment and sleep issues but not terribly so.

I have a physical tomorrow (under protest) so I can get my mammogram. I know they are doing general bloodwork and I'm guessing she'll go ahead and test my urine. Anything we should look at? 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Soror said:

I started having pain maybe a couple of months ago. Cut back on salt and it seemed to improve. IDK it's been crazy so maybe I'm imagining things and so much can be attributed to stress.

Towards the end of vaca I noticed it at night towards the end of our trip but it improved when we got back home. Now it's back again and worse. It is predominantly on my left side but some on right side. It is mostly dull but if I breath deeply or bend over it is a bit sharp.

Google says maybe UTI, kidney infection/stones-- -but I have no fever or chills. It doesn't hurt when I urinate. I do go frequently feel like I have trouble emptying my bladder at times. Like even after I go I still feel I need to. I just came back from 3 weeks overseas and started my period. I'm a bit fatigued from the adjustment and sleep issues but not terribly so.

I have a physical tomorrow (under protest) so I can get my mammogram. I know they are doing general bloodwork and I'm guessing she'll go ahead and test my urine. Anything we should look at? 

Why is it under protest that you are having a physical? Sounds like something is definitely going on.  

[Soror]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Why is it under protest that you are having a physical? Sounds like something is definitely going on.  

Under protest because I shouldn't have to to get a mammogram. The policy is dangerous to women.

[Scarlett]

Just now, Soror said:

Under protest because I shouldn't have to to get a mammogram. The policy is dangerous to women.

Well, then why are you doing it if you don’t want to?

[Brittany1116]

I never have had fever with a UTI. It's usually pain or frequency. 

[Soror]

16 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well, then why are you doing it if you don’t want to?

So I can get a mammogram. I was going to try and find a drop in place while in the city in August gave up trying to find a place (after a day spent arranging other appointments) I'm already over 6 months overdue now.

11 minutes ago, Brittany1116 said:

I never have had fever with a UTI. It's usually pain or frequency. 

Interesting thanks! 

[Scarlett]

Just now, Soror said:

So I can get a mammogram. I was going to try and find a drop in place while in the city in August gave up trying to find a place (after a day spent arranging other appointments) I'm already over 6 months overdue now.

Interesting thanks! 

Oh!  I am sorry I mis read your post. I understand now.  

[Selkie]

One possibility could be pelvic prolapse. Discomfort and not being able to empty your bladder can be signs of that. Prolapse is very common, especially if you've had kids and/or lift heavy things. 

[Dianthus]

Nm

Edited June 28, 2022 by Spirea

[Spryte]

I would think UTI, or kidney stones but at the length of time you’re saying you’ve had pain — I would worry about embedded UTI.

I have been dealing with right flank pain for two years. I have had 8 ER visits and been admitted twice in the last year alone. Soooo many CT scans. A slew of UTIs that seemed to get treated, only to pop back up. My UTI symptoms are only flank pain. No fever. No painful urination. Sometimes frequent urination but not always. The flank pain can be mild to severe. I have a GI doc on board — have had two colonoscopies, endoscopies in the last year. She gave up and said maybe it’s hip pain. My urologist has done all the tests, all of them. He’s throwing up his hands. My urine cultures come back clean now. They were are baffled. And giving up on me.

In comes my LLMD, who is also my GP. She sent my urine for DNA testing at Microgen. I have three strains of bacteria! All resistant to commonly used abx. She knew that I have a genetic issue which makes my body not fight biofilms.

So, in a nutshell — you can have a UTI that doesn’t show up on a culture. Bacteria can form biofilm, like a shield, and so it isn’t necessarily going to be free floating and able to be cultured on a traditional culture. Embedded UTI is one term. Ruth Kriz is a good resource, and live free uti is another.

My doc recommends Desert Harvest Aloe Vera, Biodisrupt (to break up biofilms), and D Mannose. Also, the lab recommends abx, according to the susceptibility of the bacteria. 

I hope you don’t have this, but also hope you’ll keep this in mind in case you don’t find answers.

 

 

[OhioMomof3]

Spryte,

Thank you for sharing! I have had similar recurring pain for the last several years. I have had multiple procedures & tests, and results come back normal. I'll check into embedded UTI.

Soror,

I hope that doctors can soon diagnose and treat you. Living with chronic pain is the pits!

 

[wintermom]

The only time I've had flank pain was after trying out a style of exercise (Qi Gong) with very deep breathing while raising both arms. My intercostal muscles must have been over stretched. It was very painful to breath and took 2 weeks to go away. I had to laugh at myself for a self-inflicted deep breathing injury.

@Soror I hope you can get some answers from the physical, and hope the pain is relieved very soon.

Edited June 19, 2022 by wintermom

[Soror]

2 hours ago, wintermom said:

The only time I've had flank pain was after trying out a style of exercise (Qi Gong) with very deep breathing while raising both arms. My intercostal muscles must have been over stretched. It was very painful to breath and took 2 weeks to go away. I had to laugh at myself for a self-inflicted deep breathing injury.

@Soror I hope you can get some answers from the physical, and hope the pain is relieved very soon.

I've had some intercostal soreness before but do not think this is it. I had it come on during vaca with no exercise or strenuous activity, just walking. It also comes and goes with different intensity. Not like a typical muscle soreness brought on by certain movements.

6 hours ago, Spryte said:

I would think UTI, or kidney stones but at the length of time you’re saying you’ve had pain — I would worry about embedded UTI.

I have been dealing with right flank pain for two years. I have had 8 ER visits and been admitted twice in the last year alone. Soooo many CT scans. A slew of UTIs that seemed to get treated, only to pop back up. My UTI symptoms are only flank pain. No fever. No painful urination. Sometimes frequent urination but not always. The flank pain can be mild to severe. I have a GI doc on board — have had two colonoscopies, endoscopies in the last year. She gave up and said maybe it’s hip pain. My urologist has done all the tests, all of them. He’s throwing up his hands. My urine cultures come back clean now. They were are baffled. And giving up on me.

In comes my LLMD, who is also my GP. She sent my urine for DNA testing at Microgen. I have three strains of bacteria! All resistant to commonly used abx. She knew that I have a genetic issue which makes my body not fight biofilms.

So, in a nutshell — you can have a UTI that doesn’t show up on a culture. Bacteria can form biofilm, like a shield, and so it isn’t necessarily going to be free floating and able to be cultured on a traditional culture. Embedded UTI is one term. Ruth Kriz is a good resource, and live free uti is another.

My doc recommends Desert Harvest Aloe Vera, Biodisrupt (to break up biofilms), and D Mannose. Also, the lab recommends abx, according to the susceptibility of the bacteria. 

I hope you don’t have this, but also hope you’ll keep this in mind in case you don’t find answers.

I know you've had quite the time. I hope you are on the other side of it now and stay that way. Thank you for the info. I'll def keep in the back of my head and hope I don't need it!

 

7 hours ago, Selkie said:

One possibility could be pelvic prolapse. Discomfort and not being able to empty your bladder can be signs of that. Prolapse is very common, especially if you've had kids and/or lift heavy things. 

True, always a possibility! I don't think it is the big issue right now but could be.

6 hours ago, Spirea said:

I just was treated for a uti that I think I had for nearly 2 months. No fever, frequency, or pain with urination. My only symptom was mild, intermittent pelvic pain, below navel. The pain got severe right before I went in for testing. I wonder if it was also causing tiredness and maybe my passing out because that stopped after I was on antibiotics.

Fatigue is so hard to nail down. It is so much easier to look back in hindsight. Thank you for sharing, glad you are feeling better.

[Soror]

Pain is not as bad this afternoon. For whatever reason it always has been worse at nights and mornings. To clarify though it has not been constant at all. Maybe a couple of months ago it started coming off/on but not as intense as it has been the last week. Last weekend I started noticing it again night/mornings. Then didn't notice it for several days when it started hurting again yesterday evening, like a dull pain. It's been fairly constant since last night but it is considerably better this afternoon but I feel icky. Tired and stomach is blech. But who knows coming back home after so long and getting back to my regular diet, messed up sleep. 

[Spryte]

13 minutes ago, Soror said:

Pain is not as bad this afternoon. For whatever reason it always has been worse at nights and mornings. To clarify though it has not been constant at all. Maybe a couple of months ago it started coming off/on but not as intense as it has been the last week. Last weekend I started noticing it again night/mornings. Then didn't notice it for several days when it started hurting again yesterday evening, like a dull pain. It's been fairly constant since last night but it is considerably better this afternoon but I feel icky. Tired and stomach is blech. But who knows coming back home after so long and getting back to my regular diet, messed up sleep. 

I’m so sorry. It can get really wearing to deal with stuff like this, whatever the cause. A heating pad could help, possibly?

I hope you feel better soon!

[catz]

If everything comes out clear on the UTI end, it is possible this is like irritable bowel.  Even if you aren't noticing anything weird that way.  You could try journaling what you are eating, your activity and stress levels for a couple weeks to see if you notice any patterns.  You could also do something like slowly introduce probiotics and a soluable fiber daily, that might help.  

[MercyA]

I have had about 30 kidney stones and it sounds like it definitely could be a kidney stone. I usually have the following symptoms: pain in the area of one or both kidneys (even if there is only one stone), feeling like I need to urinate again immediately after I've urinated, upset stomach / nausea. I have had chills before, but not with most stones. If the stone is close to coming out, sometimes I have pain in my bladder or a tiny bit of blood with urination. 

Not be the bearer of bad news, but sometimes it takes me months to pass a stone and the pain will come and go. Other stones have passed in a matter of days. I've never had to have one broken up; I've passed them all at home.

When I first started getting stones in my 20's, the pain was terrible and I went to the ER more than once for pain relief. It tends to be not as bad now. I don't know if the stones are smaller or my kidneys are just scarred up.

I don't think I've ever had a UTI with a stone. 

Beer helps quite a bit with passing stones. Supposedly it dilates the urinary tract.

You can also buy urinary pain relief tablets OTC at the pharmacy. Azo makes some but I usually just buy the generic kind. It numbs the urinary tract and helps with the feeling of having to go constantly. They turn your pee bright orange. 

Hopefully you can find out what is going on soon. Hugs to you.

Edited June 19, 2022 by MercyA

[KidsHappen]

Sounds like a stone to me. Have they checked for that? You probably wouldn't have a fever and all of your other symptoms are consistent with a stone. It can sometimes take awhile to pass a stone but usually when it is slow like that the pain is less intense than the ones that come fast and hard.

[Eos]

I had very similar symptoms for about two years, progressively getting worse.  I got all the tests and ultimately a CT scan with no results.  I eventually researched interstitial cystitis and believe that is what I have.  It's triggered by very specific things for me: black tea, chocolate, nightshades (tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant, peppers).  I have frequency and urgency, as they say, but no bacteria, stones, or fever.  When I'm eating trigger foods, I might have to go 20 or 30 times a day and night and have pain in my ovarian area that spreads down into my groin.  Not curable but definitely controllable. 

The websites that are out there for it have a weird tendency to sound sort of cult-y, or like the angry, misdiagnosed Lyme people.  I haven't been officially diagnosed and my impression is that not every doctor knows what to look for (kind of like chronic Lyme.)  But there's nothing else that fits my symptoms and it fits perfectly, unfortunately, so I'm not caring if I get a real diagnosis, I just manage it with diet.  I hope you can find some relief.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/interstitial-cystitis/symptoms-causes/syc-20354357

This is new info: https://www.ic-network.com/new-ic-bps-guidelines-released-in-usa/  They're saying not a bladder problem but a chronic pain syndrome.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Eos

[Eos]

3 hours ago, Soror said:

For whatever reason it always has been worse at nights and mornings.

Mine was too.  

[Spryte]

15 minutes ago, Eos said:

I had very similar symptoms for about two years, progressively getting worse.  I got all the tests and ultimately a CT scan with no results.  I eventually researched interstitial cystitis and believe that is what I have.  It's triggered by very specific things for me: black tea, chocolate, nightshades (tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant, peppers).  I have frequency and urgency, as they say, but no bacteria, stones, or fever.  When I'm eating trigger foods, I might have to go 20 or 30 times a day and night and have pain in my ovarian area that spreads down into my groin.  Not curable but definitely controllable. 

The websites that are out there for it have a weird tendency to sound sort of cult-y, or like the angry, misdiagnosed Lyme people.  I haven't been officially diagnosed and my impression is that not every doctor knows what to look for (kind of like chronic Lyme.)  But there's nothing else that fits my symptoms and it fits perfectly, unfortunately, so I'm not caring if I get a real diagnosis, I just manage it with diet.  I hope you can find some relief.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/interstitial-cystitis/symptoms-causes/syc-20354357

IC was (is?) the diagnosis where I was headed (have?).  My cystoscopy was ok a year ago, but I suspect by now it would not be. My GP called it IC when getting my specialty lab tests. 

My IC diagnosis is related to the embedded UTI I mentioned above though. https://liveutifree.com/interstitial-cystitis-treatment/ Ruth Kriz is the NP whose protocol my doc is following to get me treated. 

Totally see what you mean about the vibe. I’m just learning about it all. Ironically, I was one of those Lyme people, and my doc who figured it out is a sought after LLMD. 🤣 There’s an overlap — people with MTHFR are prone to hyper coagulation which makes their bodies less able to handle biofilms, and infections more likely to go chronic because the infections just hide in biofilm. I have the same thing happen with sinus infections, colds, you name it. Horrible immune system. Lyme, UTI, all just turns into a never ending misery. Ugh.

 

 

Mine is worse in nights and mornings, too. Weird.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Spryte

[Eos]

1 minute ago, Spryte said:

IC was (is?) the diagnosis where I was headed (have?).  My cystoscopy was ok a year ago, but I suspect by now it would not be. My GP called it IC when getting my specialty lab tests. 

My IC diagnosis is related to the embedded UTI I mentioned above though. https://liveutifree.com/interstitial-cystitis-treatment/ Ruth Kriz is the NP whose protocol my doc is following to get me treated. 

Totally see what you mean about the vibe. I’m just learning about it all. Ironically, I was one of those Lyme people, and my doc who figured it out is a sought after LLMD. 🤣 There’s an overlap — people with MTHFR are prone to hyper coagulation which makes their bodies less able to handle biofilms, and infections more likely to go chronic because the infections just hide in biofilm. I have the same thing happen with sinus infections, colds, you name it. Horrible immune system. Lyme, UTI, you name it. Ugh.

 

 

Mine is worse in nights and mornings, too. Weird.

 

 

I'm just now seeing these new guidelines: https://www.ic-network.com/new-ic-bps-guidelines-released-in-usa/ that refer to IC as a chronic pain syndrome, less a bladder disease. 

[Spryte]

21 minutes ago, Eos said:

I'm just now seeing these new guidelines: https://www.ic-network.com/new-ic-bps-guidelines-released-in-usa/ that refer to IC as a chronic pain syndrome, less a bladder disease. 

Ouch. I hope OP isn’t facing this! And you, too.

Pain stinks.

[Soror]

10 hours ago, Eos said:

I had very similar symptoms for about two years, progressively getting worse.  I got all the tests and ultimately a CT scan with no results.  I eventually researched interstitial cystitis and believe that is what I have.  It's triggered by very specific things for me: black tea, chocolate, nightshades (tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant, peppers).  I have frequency and urgency, as they say, but no bacteria, stones, or fever.  When I'm eating trigger foods, I might have to go 20 or 30 times a day and night and have pain in my ovarian area that spreads down into my groin.  Not curable but definitely controllable. 

The websites that are out there for it have a weird tendency to sound sort of cult-y, or like the angry, misdiagnosed Lyme people.  I haven't been officially diagnosed and my impression is that not every doctor knows what to look for (kind of like chronic Lyme.)  But there's nothing else that fits my symptoms and it fits perfectly, unfortunately, so I'm not caring if I get a real diagnosis, I just manage it with diet.  I hope you can find some relief.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/interstitial-cystitis/symptoms-causes/syc-20354357

This is new info: https://www.ic-network.com/new-ic-bps-guidelines-released-in-usa/  They're saying not a bladder problem but a chronic pain syndrome.

 

 

Interesting! Info is good. I hope I don't join the company of you ladies with something hard to diagnose. I know how frustrating that is. I had some issues the year before. I was pretty certain was my gall bladder but they refused to test and it went away. I had a lot of nausea with that and pain in a totally different area. Interesting about triggers. Sadly when I was looking into kidney stones several of the foods listed that can cause stones were foods I eat daily-- chocolate, nuts and now you list chocolate as a possible trigger- 😞

12 hours ago, MercyA said:

I have had about 30 kidney stones and it sounds like it definitely could be a kidney stone. I usually have the following symptoms: pain in the area of one or both kidneys (even if there is only one stone), feeling like I need to urinate again immediately after I've urinated, upset stomach / nausea. I have had chills before, but not with most stones. If the stone is close to coming out, sometimes I have pain in my bladder or a tiny bit of blood with urination. 

Not be the bearer of bad news, but sometimes it takes me months to pass a stone and the pain will come and go. Other stones have passed in a matter of days. I've never had to have one broken up; I've passed them all at home.

When I first started getting stones in my 20's, the pain was terrible and I went to the ER more than once for pain relief. It tends to be not as bad now. I don't know if the stones are smaller or my kidneys are just scarred up.

I don't think I've ever had a UTI with a stone. 

Beer helps quite a bit with passing stones. Supposedly it dilates the urinary tract.

You can also buy urinary pain relief tablets OTC at the pharmacy. Azo makes some but I usually just buy the generic kind. It numbs the urinary tract and helps with the feeling of having to go constantly. They turn your pee bright orange. 

Hopefully you can find out what is going on soon. Hugs to you.

Gah, beer. I've not had any severe pain yet, that sounds miserable to have so many. I've heard of those pills. I can't recall having a UTI before so it didn't occur to me. Thanks for the info and recommendations.

10 hours ago, KidsHappen said:

Sounds like a stone to me. Have they checked for that? You probably wouldn't have a fever and all of your other symptoms are consistent with a stone. It can sometimes take awhile to pass a stone but usually when it is slow like that the pain is less intense than the ones that come fast and hard.

I've not been checked for anything yet. We had so much going on before and it kept coming and going I was hoping it would just go away.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Soror

[Laura Corin]

14 hours ago, Soror said:

Pain is not as bad this afternoon. For whatever reason it always has been worse at nights and mornings. To clarify though it has not been constant at all. Maybe a couple of months ago it started coming off/on but not as intense as it has been the last week. Last weekend I started noticing it again night/mornings. Then didn't notice it for several days when it started hurting again yesterday evening, like a dull pain. It's been fairly constant since last night but it is considerably better this afternoon but I feel icky. Tired and stomach is blech. But who knows coming back home after so long and getting back to my regular diet, messed up sleep. 

You've had very stressful times recently.  Could it be to do with the way your muscles are clenched up?

[Soror]

3 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

You've had very stressful times recently.  Could it be to do with the way your muscles are clenched up?

It doesn't feel like a muscle pain. It feels internal but who knows!

-------------

So, the NP was not helpful. She said my urine is clear. Call her back if I have blood or severe pain and they can do more tests. 

[Starr]

Well that wasn't very helpful. I was thinking it was good timing that you were going to see the NP.

[Soror]

17 hours ago, Starr said:

Well that wasn't very helpful. I was thinking it was good timing that you were going to see the NP.

Ya, I wasn't all too hopeful. There is a reason I dont' have a dr any more and rarely use the clinic Every time I've tried since the dr left it has been worthless. Well, not entirely but mostly. I'm still having pain this morning but it isn't any worse and I'm not peeing blood so all is well.

[Dianthus]

Did they culture urine? Dips don't generally show infection for me. They have to culture for a few days. Right now I'm waiting on a 2nd urinalysis to check for blood, etc.

[SHP]

I fought this for years thinking it was kidney or UTI before going to my doctor and getting referred to a specialist then trying physical therapy. Two rounds of physical therapy and changes to sleep position and support and the pain is much better and would probably be completely gone if I kept up on the stretching. Had I not reached the level of desperate enough to try physical therapy twice I would never have guessed it was muscle. Twice because the first PT taught me things that were helpful for other things, but it didn't help the flank pain.

20 hours ago, Soror said:

It doesn't feel like a muscle pain. It feels internal but who knows!

-------------

So, the NP was not helpful. She said my urine is clear. Call her back if I have blood or severe pain and they can do more tests. 

 

[Soror]

1 hour ago, Spirea said:

Did they culture urine? Dips don't generally show infection for me. They have to culture for a few days. Right now I'm waiting on a 2nd urinalysis to check for blood, etc.

They just did an infection check in the office.

31 minutes ago, SHP said:

I fought this for years thinking it was kidney or UTI before going to my doctor and getting referred to a specialist then trying physical therapy. Two rounds of physical therapy and changes to sleep position and support and the pain is much better and would probably be completely gone if I kept up on the stretching. Had I not reached the level of desperate enough to try physical therapy twice I would never have guessed it was muscle. Twice because the first PT taught me things that were helpful for other things, but it didn't help the flank pain.

 

I'm going to PT Thursday for another issue and NP said I can have her check that out too. It doesn't feel to be muscle but who knows. 

[SHP]

3 minutes ago, Soror said:

 

I'm going to PT Thursday for another issue and NP said I can have her check that out too. It doesn't feel to be muscle but who knows. 

I hope they can help, if not I hope whatever it is it is resolved soon and with minimal disruption to life.

[Spryte]

One more idea: adhesions. Any chance you’ve had surgery or a history of endometriosis? Scar tissue can shrink with age and pull on organs, etc. It hurts! I see someone who is trained to gently stretch it. That can give some relief.

Stay extra hydrated, too.

And if you have another urine sample run, ask for them to send it off to culture. 

[Dianthus]

You should insist on culture and urinalysis.

[Starr]

If you want to it's easy enough to get a urine culture. Call the NP and have them order a urine culture. And you go to the lab.