WFPB diet and cravings

[Sunshine State Sue]

This is a quote from Selkie in this thread:

Quote

 

This sounds like me (not with legumes, but with other foods) before I started eating a very nutrient dense, whole food plant based diet. I was a food addict (like most Americans) and had food cravings galore. The really interesting thing is that once I committed to eating this way, all of that yuckiness completely disappeared. No more cravings for anything, ever, and I am totally satisfied eating an appropriate amount of healthy food. It was pretty mind-blowing, and not something I ever expected to happen. Since then, I have found out that this is very common when people start eating a plant based diet high in nutrients. It is so freeing.

Dr. Fuhrman refers to that type of insatiable hunger as toxic hunger. https://www.drfuhrman.com/blog/58/hungry-true-hunger-versus-toxic-hunger

 

I am wondering if anyone else has experienced this (the bolded part of the quote) or not.  I have definitely not! I love Fuhrman but I never understood what he is talking about when he talks about wrt true hunger vs toxic hunger.  I think it's BS.

I have read this theory of losing cravings over and over in many of the WFPB books (all written by men) and figured it was just BS.  My main cravings are chocolate and crackers.  They were probably my only cravings before eating a WFPB diet and they remain my only cravings after eating a WFPB diet for 10+ years.  I limit my consumption, but they still call to me.  I wish they didn't.

I suspect these cravings have to do with the fact that I am a child of an alcoholic.  I believe all 8 of us siblings are chocoholics.

I'd love to hear other WFPB eaters experience with this.  I am on vacation right now, so responding is going to be hit and miss.  That thread/quote just inspired me to post.  Thanks.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Sunshine State Sue

[Jean in Newcastle]

I crave chocolate  when I need magnesium.   I think that some cravings are tied to specific deficiencies. I don’t crave foods in general. (Which doesn’t mean that I don’t think that Mexican food sounds good tonight etc.  ). 

[Selkie]

Interestingly, I am also the child of an alcoholic, with lots of other addicts in my family.

My cravings were for sweets, potato chips, and diet pop. When I first started eating WFPB, I gave up diet pop completely, but would still occasionally stray here and there with a small bag of chips or a coconut milk ice cream bar or something like that, and I was still consuming oil.

Then I decided to get serious about my health and went 100% all in. No cheat days, no sugar, no oil, no salt. Just beans, greens, veggies, fruit, whole grains, nuts, seeds. That was when the cravings disappeared. It was like my taste buds changed, and the foods I was eating became totally delicious and satisfying.

Potato chips and sugary desserts and pop no longer hold even a tiny bit of appeal, and don’t even seem like food to me anymore. 

The hunger I used to feel between meals went away, too, and I don’t eat snacks anymore. 

So I’m living proof (and so is dh) that it does happen the way Dr. Fuhrman describes. The key was cutting out that last little bit of sugar, salt, and oil.

The funny thing is that people think we must feel deprived eating this way, but it is the complete opposite. We eat such a huge variety of foods now - just a total abundance of delicious, healthy foods.  I never feel tempted to go back to my old ways because I feel so great, physically and mentally, and love my healthy foods so much. I also love being free from food addiction.

[regentrude]

@Selkie may I ask about the no salt thing? How are you getting your sodium? Especially with strenuous activity when you're sweating?

Edited June 15, 2022 by regentrude

[Laura Corin]

5 hours ago, Sunshine State Sue said:

This is a quote from Selkie in this thread:

I am wondering if anyone else has experienced this (the bolded part of the quote) or not.  I have definitely not! I love Fuhrman but I never understood what he is talking about when he talks about wrt true hunger vs toxic hunger.  I think it's BS.

I have read this theory of losing cravings over and over in many of the WFPB books (all written by men) and figured it was just BS.  My main cravings are chocolate and crackers.  They were probably my only cravings before eating a WFPB diet and they remain my only cravings after eating a WFPB diet for 10+ years.  I limit my consumption, but they still call to me.  I wish they didn't.

I suspect these cravings have to do with the fact that I am a child of an alcoholic.  I believe all 8 of us siblings are chocoholics.

I'd love to hear other WFPB eaters experience with this.  I am on vacation right now, so responding is going to be hit and miss.  That thread/quote just inspired me to post.  Thanks.

I guess I don't know the difference between saying, 'I like to eat chocolate sometimes' and 'I crave chocolate'.  I eat whole, unprocessed food and mostly plant based 95% of the time.  But if I feel like a piece of chocolate, I eat one.  I have no taste for cheap chocolate, but a piece of high quality dark chocolate is delicious.  I also like crackers: these oat crackers (they are called oatcakes here, but they aren't sweet) are full of good things and seem like a fairly decent option https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/290089232

I suppose I'm not someone who goes to extremes on diet - I think that a whole-food Mediterranean style diet is good for most people, and eating that way, I've lost my taste for a lot of junk food.  But a good piece of chocolate or whole grain cracker?  That sounds like a taste, not a craving, and as a very small proportion of my diet, I can't see them as a big deal.

[J-rap]

5 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I guess I don't know the difference between saying, 'I like to eat chocolate sometimes' and 'I crave chocolate'.  I eat whole, unprocessed food and mostly plant based 95% of the time.  But if I feel like a piece of chocolate, I eat one.  I have no taste for cheap chocolate, but a piece of high quality dark chocolate is delicious.  I also like crackers: these oat crackers (they are called oatcakes here, but they aren't sweet) are full of good things and seem like a fairly decent option https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/290089232

I suppose I'm not someone who goes to extremes on diet - I think that a whole-food Mediterranean style diet is good for most people, and eating that way, I've lost my taste for a lot of junk food.  But a good piece of chocolate or whole grain cracker?  That sounds like a taste, not a craving, and as a very small proportion of my diet, I can't see them as a big deal.

I was wondering the same thing.  Interestingly, I grew up not really craving/enjoying food (that lasted into my 40's).  Food kind of grossed me out actually, although I'd eat it because I was hungry.  (In hind site, I think I had some sensory issues with food!)  My mother was a good cook for her generation and we always had homemade meals from scratch.  But, hers was the generation before we really understood a healthy diet.  (She's in her early 90's now.)  

Not too many years ago, I began discovering diets that leaned toward vegetarian/plant-based, learned how to cook vegetables in ways that were actually good (instead of steamed to the point of mush!), learned I loved legumes, learned that I feel much better with dense protein-veggie/low sugar/low carb meals.  I'm not a strict anything -- I eat small portions of meat maybe 3x a week, but my diet has completely changed from my childhood days.  I now love to eat and I enjoy the flavor of food so much!  I actually crave things now, like good roasted vegetables, whole grain bread with pure peanut butter, homemade lentil soup packed with veggies.  I rarely (if ever?) crave sweets though.

So I don't really understand the no-craving thing, because for me, that's been a good thing!

[alysee]

I haven't read Fuhrmans book and this may sound like a flippant comment but I'm going to assume he doesn't understand a women's menstrual cycle. Changes in estrogen and progesterone causes cravings for high carbs and sweets before your period. Also, during your period your body is looking for more serotonin so it makes you crave things. Now, you may ask do I still get cravings? Yup. They aren't as bad now that I'm a vegetarian but I have my emergency chocolate stash just for this very reason. 

[Pawz4me]

19 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I guess I don't know the difference between saying, 'I like to eat chocolate sometimes' and 'I crave chocolate'.  I eat whole, unprocessed food and mostly plant based 95% of the time.  But if I feel like a piece of chocolate, I eat one.  I have no taste for cheap chocolate, but a piece of high quality dark chocolate is delicious.  I also like crackers: these oat crackers (they are called oatcakes here, but they aren't sweet) are full of good things and seem like a fairly decent option https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/290089232

I suppose I'm not someone who goes to extremes on diet - I think that a whole-food Mediterranean style diet is good for most people, and eating that way, I've lost my taste for a lot of junk food.  But a good piece of chocolate or whole grain cracker?  That sounds like a taste, not a craving, and as a very small proportion of my diet, I can't see them as a big deal.

I agree with all of this, but particularly the bolded parts. The only time in my life I'd say I had a true craving for anything was when I was pregnant with oldest, and that was for fruits, particularly melons. For me I define "craving" as an insistent, nagging, chronic wanting/needing a particular food. It's not a transient feeling of "I'd really like some chocolate right now" or "a cheeseburger sounds awesome for lunch."

I'm not sure what Fuhrman advises--I don't really follow any "expert" other than my own body becauese IMO with very rare exceptions they're all quacks of one variety or another--but I very rarely get truly hungry between meals, and I rarely snack. I can say with total certainty that for me those are due much more to aging than to WOE.

[Selkie]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

@Selkie may I ask about the no salt thing? How are you getting your sodium? Especially with strenuous activity when you're sweating?

We get naturally occurring sodium from vegetables and other whole foods that we eat. We both get strenuous exercise daily from horse chores and exercise (especially dh, who plays competitive sports), and the naturally occurring sodium is enough for us.

[Sunshine State Sue]

2 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

I guess I don't know the difference between saying, 'I like to eat chocolate sometimes' and 'I crave chocolate'.  I eat whole, unprocessed food and mostly plant based 95% of the time.  But if I feel like a piece of chocolate, I eat one.

When I weighed 165#, I ate dessert 2x a day.  I still want dessert 2x a day.  The best I can manage is 3x per week.  One is a frozen banana whipped with 1T cocoa.  One is 2oz of dark chocolate raisins or cherries.  One is 1 scoop of chocolate peanut butter ice cream.  That's the best I can do, but I want more.

I like your crackers.  I buy flax and millet chips made locally.  Here are the ingredients.

Quote

Millet Flour, Brown Rice Flour, Rice Bran ,Ground Flax ,Water,Quinoa Flour , Olive Oil, Safflower , Sea Salt,  Non Aluminum Baking Powder (Sodium Acid Pyrophophate, Soduim Bicarbonate, Potato Starch, Monocalcuim Phosphate) Cultured Brown Rice Flour, Ascorbic acid

 

[Sunshine State Sue]

6 hours ago, Selkie said:

Then I decided to get serious about my health and went 100% all in. No cheat days, no sugar, no oil, no salt. Just beans, greens, veggies, fruit, whole grains, nuts, seeds. That was when the cravings disappeared. It was like my taste buds changed, and the foods I was eating became totally delicious and satisfying.

I admire you, Selkie.  I just don't think I could do it 100% long-term.  I do eat a wide variety of plant food.  I once made a list.

asparagus		apple		black beans		peanuts		brown rice
banana pepper		avocado		chickpeas		cashews		wild rice
beet		banana		kidney beans		pistachios		black rice
brocolli		blackberries		pinto beans		almonds		red rice
brussel sprouts		blueberries		great northern beans		walnuts		quinoa
cabbage		cherries		black eyed peas		pecans		black quinoa
carrot		grapes		cannellini beans		pumpkin seeds		buckwheat
cauliflower		kiwi		cranberry beans		flax seeds		oats
celery		mango		fava beans		pine nuts		corn
chard		orange		red lentils		chia seeds		teff
cilantro		pineapple		brown lentils				millet
cucumber		pomegranate		black lentils
eggplant		raspberries		yellow split peas
garlic		strawberries		green split peas
ginger		tangerine		moong dal
green bean
green bell pepper
green onion
jalapeno
kale
leek
lettuce
okra
onion
parsley
potato
red bell pepper
red onion
romaine
serrano chile
spinach
sweet potato
tomato
yellow squash
zucchini

[Laura Corin]

8 minutes ago, Sunshine State Sue said:

When I weighed 165#, I ate dessert 2x a day.  I still want dessert 2x a day.  The best I can manage is 3x per week.  One is a frozen banana whipped with 1T cocoa.  One is 2oz of dark chocolate raisins or cherries.  One is 1 scoop of chocolate peanut butter ice cream.  That's the best I can do, but I want more.

I like your crackers.  I buy flax and millet chips made locally.  Here are the ingredients.

 

I guess - for me - the frozen banana or similar is not something I would avoid, even twice a day.  It's a whole fruit and my cocoa powder is unsweetened.  I eat a lot of seasonal fruit - local strawberries right now.  I don't know if you eat yoghurt, but I love unsweetened yoghurt with fruit.  I use a lot of silken tofu to make creamy sauces - I bet it would work for desserts too, whipped  with fruit.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Laura Corin

[Katy]

I had toxic hunger after going on high doses of prednisone and several rounds of strong antibiotics for almost a year. Before that I’d always been in control of my own weight, I knew how to drop about 5-7 pounds in a week until I was however thin I wanted just by eating more fruits & vegetables and limiting junk food & starches to one or two servings a day. 

After those medications I developed food allergies (wheat & chia) and not only had trouble losing weight, I never felt full though I could feel sick from eating too much. I had to drop to very low calories (800-1000) of only lean protein and vegetables as well as several hours of exercise per day to lose any weight at all, even 1/2 lb per week.

This was not a normal part of aging, I haven’t lost muscle volume per a few different personal trainers. When I did succeed at losing after about 10 pounds I developed this strong feeling that if I didn’t eat more I would die. This feeling remained until something stressful happened and my willpower broke and I would eat more junk food for a few days. I could undo 2 months of dieting with less than 3 days of eating normally. And the improved mood I temporarily felt from eating junk food was much stronger than previously. Eating something sweet and fatty was far more satisfying than it had been before, when maybe 3-5 bites of something rich was enough. 

This all went away when I took probiotics that cured my food allergies. And improved more when I did Brooke Goldner’s (raw vegan) smoothie diet.  I feel full again. Junk food tastes junky again. 

Now that I’ve read Fiber Fueled, a book by a gastroenterologist named Will something, I believe all of it was related to microbiome. It absolutely makes sense that sticking to a high nutrient vegan diet for one month would change your microbiome enough to get rid of toxic hunger for most people. But it could also be almost impossible for most people to stick to because it would feel like you were dying. Why? Because your microbiome is dying and sends screaming signals to your brain to eat junk again. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have said this before on other threads. I am obese.
 

I don’t have soda to cut out of my diet  because I don’t drink soda. (I have had a root beer maybe twice in the last ten years. That’s the only soda taste that I like but saying that I like the taste doesn’t mean that I crave it. ). 

I don’t have desserts to cut out because my only dessert 90% of the time is a square or two of really dark chocolate. I like the taste and it often “hits the spot “. But I don’t consider that a craving. It’s not like I have to use self control to not eat the entire bar. About twice a month I treat myself to some plant based ice cream or if I am at this one particular restaurant, their gf, df chocolate mousse. I am another person who doesn’t think that deciding that something sounds tasty equals a craving. 
 

I will say that  on the rare occasions that I buy a bag of chips ( which is usually because there are no other gf options available) I don’t stop at one chip. But I have zero problem looking at the side of the bag to see that 16 chips is a “serving” and counting out that many. 
 

I will often say things like “I am craving strawberries “ but I don’t know if it’s a true craving. Strawberries just sound really good to me sometimes. So does Mexican food. Or asparagus especially the first tender ones of the season. 
 

I am diabetic. I count carbs. Sometimes I blow it on the carbs because always eating Asian food with no rice isn’t something I like doing. Sometimes I guess that I just “crave” some brown rice. But it’s because a curry without a rice base lacks that “bulk” that I like and because I simply like the taste of brown rice with my stir fry. (I do substitute cauliflower rice or broccoli rice or sometimes just non-riced broccoli for rice but it doesn’t taste the same). 
 

I eat snacks. My blood sugars are better when I do. I often have to remind myself to have one but I know from experience that if I skip it that my sugars go too low.   When I tally up my daily calorie intake I get the same number of calories (or slightly less) than some of those on this board who don’t eat snacks. I just don’t eat as much at my meals because it’s spread out. (I do eat more than some people on this board who hardly eat anything at all. But I eat the amount that countless nutritionists have told me is appropriate for someone my height who wants to lose weight slowly). 
 

I eat some meat once a day. I like meat. I wouldn’t say that I crave it but I know from experience that my blood sugars are so much more steady with animal based protein. Beans especially will spike my blood sugars. And not just a little. 
 

Obviously there are people out there who binge on certain foods. But I don’t think that you can make a generalization that “everyone who doesn’t eat a strict vegan diet binges on foods.”  I don’t. And never have. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I haven’t had a McDonalds hamburger in over 15 years. But sometimes an ad will trigger a taste memory for me. The thing is, I know that that taste memory isn’t accurate because the last time that I did have a McDonalds hamburger it tasted like “cardboard “ to me. And the taste memory definitely is better!  Is a taste memory a craving?  

[Selkie]

12 hours ago, Sunshine State Sue said:

This is a quote from Selkie in this thread:

I am wondering if anyone else has experienced this (the bolded part of the quote) or not.  I have definitely not! I love Fuhrman but I never understood what he is talking about when he talks about wrt true hunger vs toxic hunger.  I think it's BS.

I have read this theory of losing cravings over and over in many of the WFPB books (all written by men) and figured it was just BS.  My main cravings are chocolate and crackers.  They were probably my only cravings before eating a WFPB diet and they remain my only cravings after eating a WFPB diet for 10+ years.  I limit my consumption, but they still call to me.  I wish they didn't.

I suspect these cravings have to do with the fact that I am a child of an alcoholic.  I believe all 8 of us siblings are chocoholics.

I'd love to hear other WFPB eaters experience with this.  I am on vacation right now, so responding is going to be hit and miss.  That thread/quote just inspired me to post.  Thanks.

Are you in any WFPB groups on Facebook? I am just curious since you specifically asked this question of WFPB people, and there are very few on this board. But on Facebook, there are huge groups that are very active with loads of people. You will definitely get more input there. Two of my faves are Forks Over Knives Official Plant-Based Group and Eat to Live High Nutrient Lifestyle Group.

Also, I've seen a couple comments on this thread about male doctors, but there are lots of female doctors in the WFPB world, too. Dr. Kristi Funk, Dr. Saray Stancic, Dr. Ayesha Sherzai, Dr. Brooke Goldner, Dr. Nitu Bajekal - just to name a few. I wanted to mention that in case anyone is specifically looking for a female voice on the topic.

[Selkie]

5 hours ago, Sunshine State Sue said:

When I weighed 165#, I ate dessert 2x a day.  I still want dessert 2x a day.  The best I can manage is 3x per week.  One is a frozen banana whipped with 1T cocoa.  One is 2oz of dark chocolate raisins or cherries.  One is 1 scoop of chocolate peanut butter ice cream.  That's the best I can do, but I want more.

I just thought of one more thing..are you familiar with Chef AJ? She's a WFPB chef and an expert on food addiction, having suffered from it herself for many years. She has tons of informative and helpful info in her books and YouTube videos.

https://www.chefaj.com

[GoVanGogh]

I went whole food, plant based vegetarian, mostly leaning toward raw vegan, over the past 18 months. 
My dad is an alcoholic and my mom is a food hoarder. I grew up with major food and weight issues and have struggled with borderline anorexia, self harm and my own alcoholism.
I have always had intense food cravings - until just this past year.

My own personal belief is that there is a tipping point that you have to get to, either emotionally where you realize that giving in to the French fry craving will make you feel worse instead of better, or physically where your body now craves and wants healthy, vibrant foods instead of heavy foods. I think the science behind that is that our body craves things that trigger us, much like gambling or alcohol. We think of them as comfort foods, but instead they trigger our brain. Our bodies crave things that cause chronic inflammation, because that is what our bodies are used to feeling. Not 100% sure on that, but that is my understanding and what makes sense to me with my own experience. Just like I used to crave alcohol even though it would later make me feel awful, same with dairy, sugar or carbs. One of my self harms was cutting. I knew it would hurt like hell the next day, but in the moment my body needed that feeling. That is how food cravings used to feel for me.  I do 100% think that there is a detox period, like an alcoholic goes through detox, when you go totally whole food, plant based, there is a tipping point where you just mentally no longer even want anything that isn’t whole food, plant based. Now even organic “good” salad dressing tastes odd. I used to love pizza but now have no interest in eating it  

I had read Dr Fuhrman’s earlier books, along with similar books. They always made sense to me, but it was never something I could 100% embrace. I have always been a healthy eater. I used to run half marathons and you can’t do that and eat a crap diet. I have never eaten fast food, except for occasional French fry craving after a long run. I have always loved fruits and vegetables and have long known that I felt my best physically and emotionally when I put them front and center of my diet. But. I had a toxic childhood and brought a lot of food issues with me into adulthood. I have always had intense food cravings. Until now. 
 

Background: I was diagnosed with young onset Parkinson’s and fibromyalgia in early 2020, on top of earlier health issues - Hashimoto’s, Epstein-Barre and celiac. 
March 2021, I decided to go back to being a vegetarian but whole food, plant based. (I was a vegetarian as a young adult but ate a ton of pasta, dairy and eggs.) I didn’t initially “decide to go vegetarian,” to eliminate all meat or fish, but as a way to force myself to put fruits and vegetables front and center in my diet. I knew from previous experience that my body feels its best when I get above and slightly beyond the USDA recommendations of fruits and vegetables, which just doesn’t leave much room for meat, dairy, etc. I thought I would still eat a bit of meat and would totally still eat fish. With celiac, it makes it hard eat out anyway and I didn’t want to make it harder by eliminating all meat. But, the more fruits and vegetables I ate, the more I wanted them until, I gave up all meat and fish, then almost all dairy and eggs, olive oil, sugar.

I really don’t have any intense food cravings anymore. I do have a desire to eat certain foods, like mango or berries, but it isn’t a craving. A few weeks ago, I was eating maybe two or three mangos a day. It is nothing for me to get 20-30 different fruits and vegetables in my body on any given day. I no longer have issues with my blood sugar tanking out on me, I have been able to go off prescription pain killers and reduce anti-inflammatory meds. I have major blood work done two times a year. (My neurologist and rheumatologist go together and order labs, so things don’t get duplicated. It is often 8-12 vials of blood drawn.) Over the past three rounds of labs, my liver enzymes are perfect for the first time ever, my A1c is amazing, cholesterol, inflammation levels are finally down for the first time in my adult life. I now look at food as energizing, healing, light, vibrant. My diet is almost all fresh fruit and vegetables. I generally eat a very small handful of nuts or nut butter and a small amount of legumes a day. I do eat about one egg a week, when we have breakfast tacos, so I am not vegan and don’t profess to be one. But my diet is about 75% raw vegan. I shop at the farmer’s market, so I can get organic, in season, locally grown food. I also switched from flower gardening to vegetable gardening and grow some of my food. I don’t know at this point that I will ever go back to eating not plant based. Granted, I do have Parkinson’s so my journey and my incentive is very different. Eat to live and Eat for health are two of Fuhrman’s book titles. Another dr’s book is How not to die. I take those book titles very personally. Before I went whole food, plant based, I was sidelined by my health. I had gone from running half marathons to not being able to walk around the block. This morning, I ran two miles and came home and gardened for a few hours. I 100% know I couldn’t have done that without being fueled by plants. 

[stephanier.1765]

I'm vegan and eat a very healthy diet, which I think might be part of my problem. I crave salt. I don't as a general rule add salt to my food. So I keep salty nuts on hand for when the craving hits. The downside is making myself stop eating them. A few nuts are okay but a lot of nuts are not. I guess it's like eating potato chips...you can't eat just one.

[Sunshine State Sue]

7 hours ago, Selkie said:

Are you in any WFPB groups on Facebook? I am just curious since you specifically asked this question of WFPB people, and there are very few on this board. But on Facebook, there are huge groups that are very active with loads of people. You will definitely get more input there. Two of my faves are Forks Over Knives Official Plant-Based Group and Eat to Live High Nutrient Lifestyle Group.

Also, I've seen a couple comments on this thread about male doctors, but there are lots of female doctors in the WFPB world, too. Dr. Kristi Funk, Dr. Saray Stancic, Dr. Ayesha Sherzai, Dr. Brooke Goldner, Dr. Nitu Bajekal - just to name a few. I wanted to mention that in case anyone is specifically looking for a female voice on the topic.

Thanks for the female voices.  I love Pam Popper.  I am familiar with Chef AJ and have used some of her recipes.

I used to be on an E2L yahoo group. It's probably gone now.  I'm one of those dinosaurs who is not on facebook. 🙄

[ktgrok]

14 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

I guess I don't know the difference between saying, 'I like to eat chocolate sometimes' and 'I crave chocolate'. 

To me a craving is where you want it, can't stop thinking about it, are anxious because you don't have it, try eating other things but still want it, will go out of your way to go get it, etc. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

12 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

To me a craving is where you want it, can't stop thinking about it, are anxious because you don't have it, try eating other things but still want it, will go out of your way to go get it, etc. 

Then despite using the term in a very loose way at times to describe a desire to eat something that I like and haven’t eaten for awhile, I have never had a craving. Not when I was extremely thin and first got autoimmune disease and not now with excess weight. And not during any of the sometimes extreme dietary restrictions that I have had while trying to manage my autoimmune problems. I miss bread at times but I have no psychological or physical dependence on it. I just remember that it can taste good- especially the soft rolls that the local steakhouse serves with their dinners. 

[Selkie]

I’m using the word craving to mean the urge to eat something that is detrimental to human health. Probably (almost certainly) not the correct definition, but that is what I meant when I said I used to have cravings but don’t anymore.

[GoVanGogh]

59 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I’m using the word craving to mean the urge to eat something that is detrimental to human health. Probably (almost certainly) not the correct definition, but that is what I meant when I said I used to have cravings but don’t anymore.

That is what I take to be a craving, as well. You can be in the mood for, say, spaghetti but that isn’t a craving. But to have an intense desire to eat, say, ice cream or chicken wings, that is a craving. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

53 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I’m using the word craving to mean the urge to eat something that is detrimental to human health. Probably (almost certainly) not the correct definition, but that is what I meant when I said I used to have cravings but don’t anymore.

And I think this is where our approach to food is fundamentally different. I don’t believe that any food is necessarily detrimental to human health for people without a specific allergy/intolerance or enzymatic problem. Now I don’t know if I could ever promote the eating of a deep fried Twinky, but most foods are ok in moderation (in my opinion which I realize is not in accordance with WFPB teachings). It’s just easy to think that you’re being moderate in your intake when you are not. 
 

Now I do believe that some foods are healthier than others. I personally think that a diet that is whole foods is best. And that plenty of fruits and vegetables are great. But (as you know from my daily meals on the healthy eating thread) I also think that lean animal protein is healthy. And that a healthy diet can include some sugar or dairy or eggs. I try to find healthier versions of certain recipes that I like. (I think that I like them because they are tasty. Not because of a food addiction.). 

[Selkie]

4 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

And I think this is where our approach to food is fundamentally different. I don’t believe that any food is necessarily detrimental to human health for people without a specific allergy/intolerance or enzymatic problem. Now I don’t know if I could ever promote the eating of a deep fried Twinky, but most foods are ok in moderation (in my opinion which I realize is not in accordance with WFPB teachings). It’s just easy to think that you’re being moderate in your intake when you are not. 
 

Now I do believe that some foods are healthier than others. I personally think that a diet that is whole foods is best. And that plenty of fruits and vegetables are great. But (as you know from my daily meals on the healthy eating thread) I also think that lean animal protein is healthy. And that a healthy diet can include some sugar or dairy or eggs. I try to find healthier versions of certain recipes that I like. (I think that I like them because they are tasty. Not because of a food addiction.). 

You are right - as a nutrition nerd, I disagree with most of this.🙂

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

And I think this is where our approach to food is fundamentally different. I don’t believe that any food is necessarily detrimental to human health for people without a specific allergy/intolerance or enzymatic problem. Now I don’t know if I could ever promote the eating of a deep fried Twinky, but most foods are ok in moderation (in my opinion which I realize is not in accordance with WFPB teachings). It’s just easy to think that you’re being moderate in your intake when you are not. 
 

Now I do believe that some foods are healthier than others. I personally think that a diet that is whole foods is best. And that plenty of fruits and vegetables are great. But (as you know from my daily meals on the healthy eating thread) I also think that lean animal protein is healthy. And that a healthy diet can include some sugar or dairy or eggs. I try to find healthier versions of certain recipes that I like. (I think that I like them because they are tasty. Not because of a food addiction.). 

I really struggle with this.  My mom was always on a diet and it was clear she didn't respect herself much when her weight was higher than her ideal. Sometimes I watch Abbey Sharp on YouTube and she talks about having healthier relationships with food, not demonizing anything, and eating intuitively. And there's plenty of science to back that up.  I've personally experienced several times that attempts to eat "healthier" that didn't involve only more plants, but anything else was likely to make me sick rather than more healthy.  I didn't understand about histamine intolerance then or that many of those healthy foods really do make me ill.  I really want my kids to keep that intuitive eating thing they do when young into adulthood but OTOH I know I feel better when I eat more than 90% raw vegan too.

[GoVanGogh]

12 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

And I think this is where our approach to food is fundamentally different. I don’t believe that any food is necessarily detrimental to human health for people without a specific allergy/intolerance or enzymatic problem. Now I don’t know if I could ever promote the eating of a deep fried Twinky, but most foods are ok in moderation (in my opinion which I realize is not in accordance with WFPB teachings). It’s just easy to think that you’re being moderate in your intake when you are not. 
 

Now I do believe that some foods are healthier than others. I personally think that a diet that is whole foods is best. And that plenty of fruits and vegetables are great. But (as you know from my daily meals on the healthy eating thread) I also think that lean animal protein is healthy. And that a healthy diet can include some sugar or dairy or eggs. I try to find healthier versions of certain recipes that I like. (I think that I like them because they are tasty. Not because of a food addiction.). 

I used to think all foods were okay in moderation. Yet I also knew that for years, if I had a gluten free baked item (sandwich or banana bread, muffin, cupcake, etc) I just wanted that more and more. That is the addicting power of food. Intellectually, I could think and feel a certain food was okay in moderation, but my body felt differently. My body would just want more.
I read something a while back about food/eating issues: For an alcoholic, they teach you that you have to forever eliminate alcohol and avoid tempting places. But you can’t do that with food. Everyone still has to eat. Yet most treatment for food issues (eating disorders, diabetes treatment, etc.) doesn’t fully take that into account. They(nutritionists, etc) will say “That is okay in moderation…” because for themselves that is true. But it isn’t true for someone with dietary/weight issues. 

re: deep fried Twinkie. I live in the state whose state fair is a constant source of pride in What crazy thing can we fry this year? And I can tell you from going to that state fair many, many times: No one should ever be eating a deep fried Twinkie. Or a deep fried stick of butter or slab of cheesecake. Just NO. Never. I normally don’t believe in government regulations but in this case I do. I think it is a national disgrace, it is horrific for our health care system, it is sad to see severely overweight children that will grow up seeing this as normal. 

[Kassia]

4 minutes ago, GoVanGogh said:

I used to think all foods were okay in moderation. Yet I also knew that for years, if I had a gluten free baked item (sandwich or banana bread, muffin, cupcake, etc) I just wanted that more and more. That is the addicting power of food. Intellectually, I could think and feel a certain food was okay in moderation, but my body felt differently. My body would just want more.
I read something a while back about food/eating issues: For an alcoholic, they teach you that you have to forever eliminate alcohol and avoid tempting places. But you can’t do that with food. Everyone still has to eat. Yet most treatment for food issues (eating disorders, diabetes treatment, etc.) doesn’t fully take that into account. They(nutritionists, etc) will say “That is okay in moderation…” because for themselves that is true. But it isn’t true for someone with dietary/weight issues. 

 

This is very true for me.  Certain foods send me into an absolute frenzy and I have to fight the urge to binge.  This has been a struggle for my whole life - sometimes I'm really good about asking myself if I want that food knowing how I'll feel after I eat it (unsatisfied and wanting more more more) and other times I just go for it and regret it later.  😞  

I'm baffled that some people have never experienced strong cravings - there are times where I feel like I'm absolutely desperate for a kind of food (sweet or salty).  I have trouble with low sodium levels so that might be part of the problem but it's really hard for me to distract myself from those cravings.  

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

28 minutes ago, GoVanGogh said:

I used to think all foods were okay in moderation. Yet I also knew that for years, if I had a gluten free baked item (sandwich or banana bread, muffin, cupcake, etc) I just wanted that more and more. That is the addicting power of food. Intellectually, I could think and feel a certain food was okay in moderation, but my body felt differently. My body would just want more.
I read something a while back about food/eating issues: For an alcoholic, they teach you that you have to forever eliminate alcohol and avoid tempting places. But you can’t do that with food. Everyone still has to eat. Yet most treatment for food issues (eating disorders, diabetes treatment, etc.) doesn’t fully take that into account. They(nutritionists, etc) will say “That is okay in moderation…” because for themselves that is true. But it isn’t true for someone with dietary/weight issues. 

re: deep fried Twinkie. I live in the state whose state fair is a constant source of pride in What crazy thing can we fry this year? And I can tell you from going to that state fair many, many times: No one should ever be eating a deep fried Twinkie. Or a deep fried stick of butter or slab of cheesecake. Just NO. Never. I normally don’t believe in government regulations but in this case I do. I think it is a national disgrace, it is horrific for our health care system, it is sad to see severely overweight children that will grow up seeing this as normal. 

I don’t have a history of eating disorders like you do. I didn’t say that no one ever has unhealthy relationships with food.  I was talking about myself only. My weight gain is due to medical reasons that have zero to do with cravings that I don’t have. 

[ktgrok]

14 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

And I think this is where our approach to food is fundamentally different. I don’t believe that any food is necessarily detrimental to human health for people without a specific allergy/intolerance or enzymatic problem. N

I think a good way to put this would be, "the dose makes the poison", with the caveat that some people have a lower toxicity threshold than others. 

 

1 hour ago, GoVanGogh said:

I used to think all foods were okay in moderation. Yet I also knew that for years, if I had a gluten free baked item (sandwich or banana bread, muffin, cupcake, etc) I just wanted that more and more. That is the addicting power of food. Intellectually, I could think and feel a certain food was okay in moderation, but my body felt differently. My body would just want more.
 

I think this is where we need to distinguish what works for a healthy person, vs what works for someone with a specific issue. As someone who is not an alcoholic, I have open a light beer after mowing the lawn, enjoy half of it, then pour out the rest with no desire for me. An alcoholic would want to finish it and drink the rest of the six pack, then when that runs out look for other alcohol. That doesn't mean half a beer is detrimental to most people, or in general, just to an alcoholic. Same with food - there are things that I, with a food addiction, can't have without binging, that a healthy person can eat and enjoy and move on, perhaps not even finishing it. Just like I can with the beer. 

(and I'm sitting here trying to imagine having half of a deep fried slice of cheesecake and happily not finishing it and tossing it, the way I do the beer, and my mind cannot compute that. There is NO WAY I could not finish a slice of cheesecake. Even if it made me ill.  But, I can, if exercising and keeping other things on track, SOMETIMES enjoy a slice or share it while out, as long as there is no more in the house. But often, if I do that, I'll move to looking for other carbs, just like an alcoholic looking for other alcohol when the beer or whatever is gone)

1 hour ago, Kassia said:

I'm baffled that some people have never experienced strong cravings - there are times where I feel like I'm absolutely desperate for a kind of food (sweet or salty).  I have trouble with low sodium levels so that might be part of the problem but it's really hard for me to distract myself from those cravings.  

 

Yup. But I guess it is true. Which is why i say that it is NOT that healthy thin people have more will power than obese people - it is that they have less battles to fight. 

[Kassia]

15 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

 

 I'll move to looking for other carbs, just like an alcoholic looking for other alcohol when the beer or whatever is gone)

. Which is why i say that it is NOT that healthy thin people have more will power than obese people - it is that they have less battles to fight. 

exactly what I do (first sentence quoted).  Many years ago, I was put on Prozac for binge eating after a period of anorexia (lifetime of eating disorders).  I got relief almost immediately, which made me a firm believer that many times those cravings are biological and definitely not a weakness or lack of willpower - our bodies and brains are craving something and will make it very very difficult to resist. 

And another thing about willpower that I find so frustrating.  We can use our willpower 23 1/2 hours a day and be so so strong but then finally cave and that 30 minutes does us in.  I'm not sure that's I'm explaining this the way I want to - people like us DO have willpower but using it 24/7 is exhausting.  It only takes a few minutes to undo so many times we did stop ourselves from giving in. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I think a good way to put this would be, "the dose makes the poison", with the caveat that some people have a lower toxicity threshold than others. 

 

I think this is where we need to distinguish what works for a healthy person, vs what works for someone with a specific issue. As someone who is not an alcoholic, I have open a light beer after mowing the lawn, enjoy half of it, then pour out the rest with no desire for me. An alcoholic would want to finish it and drink the rest of the six pack, then when that runs out look for other alcohol. That doesn't mean half a beer is detrimental to most people, or in general, just to an alcoholic. Same with food - there are things that I, with a food addiction, can't have without binging, that a healthy person can eat and enjoy and move on, perhaps not even finishing it. Just like I can with the beer. 

(and I'm sitting here trying to imagine having half of a deep fried slice of cheesecake and happily not finishing it and tossing it, the way I do the beer, and my mind cannot compute that. There is NO WAY I could not finish a slice of cheesecake. Even if it made me ill.  But, I can, if exercising and keeping other things on track, SOMETIMES enjoy a slice or share it while out, as long as there is no more in the house. But often, if I do that, I'll move to looking for other carbs, just like an alcoholic looking for other alcohol when the beer or whatever is gone)

Yup. But I guess it is true. Which is why i say that it is NOT that healthy thin people have more will power than obese people - it is that they have less battles to fight. 

The key is finding out what works for each individual. And don’t assume that what works for you will work for someone else. 
 

I sm not saying that there are no general nutrition standards. Obviously some foods are better sources of different nutrients than others. Obviously some foods are less nutritious. I am 100% behind eating lots of nutrient dense fruits and vegetables (though my particular body has to be careful with the glycemic index of even fruits and vegetables). 
 

I literally can have one bite of a rich dessert, say “hmmm. That was tasty but having too much of a ‘good ‘ thing will make me sick /will be detrimental to my blood sugars or whatever “ and then throw it out or package it for later. I can also be aware that one bite of a nutrient dense whole wheat slice of bread will cause invisible severe damage to my intestines and not eat it despite how nice my taste memory is of good bread. 
 

I don’t have an eating disorder. Not everyone does. I do, however, have probable celiac (or at the least non celiac gluten intolerance) but I don’t treat everyone else as if they have it too.  I also have diabetes even when my a1c is in normal range.  
 

I am an obese person with no eating disorder. No cravings to battle. That doesn’t make me better than anyone else. It just makes me frustrated because 90% of the weight loss tips out there are things that I naturally do already. (Ironically I can look back now to when I was thin and I can see signs of insulin resistance even then but no one believed me because I was thin. ). 

[Selkie]

This is just a general observation, not about this thread or anyone who has posted - Discussions about nutrition get muddied up because many people mainly think about it from a weight loss angle, while others are more focused on overall health. Not that being a healthy weight isn't very important, but there are so many other aspects of health that need to be considered, too. There are plenty of foods that may help you lose weight, but have a high likelihood of causing disease in your future. And there are people who look fit on the outside but are in abysmal health on the inside.

When I say I'm relieved to be free of food cravings, it isn't because of weight (although the weight loss has been a happy side effect). I'm relieved because disease-promoting foods have lost all their appeal. I started eating WFPB not because I wanted to lose weight, but because I wanted to give my body optimal nutrition for long term health.

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

 

Yup. But I guess it is true. Which is why i say that it is NOT that healthy thin people have more will power than obese people - it is that they have less battles to fight. 

I've been both obese and significantly underweight and then normal weight. I never had cravings when I was obese. But that's mostly because I hadn't (yet) grasped the fact that I couldn't or shouldn't eat anything I wanted, whenever I wanted. If I wanted chocolate cake I ate it. If I wanted another piece I ate that. I never had anything remotely resembling what I define as a craving until I started severely restricting calories. (And yes, some of this comes down to how each of us defines "cravings." It's a problem that we have different definitions.)

 

47 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The key is finding out what works for each individual. And don’t assume that what works for you will work for someone else. 

Absolutely.

My disclaimer on this and all food/diet related threads is that I am relating my own experience and only that. I have no knowledge of or assumptions about what others experience. I'm not particularly swayed or impressed by studies that say x or y, because for every one posted that (supposedly) proves x someone so inclined could almost certainly post a study that (supposedly) proves y. Studies are only worthwile when they're replicated over and over, but (again) often nowadays it's pretty easy to show multiple studies that support x and multiple studies that support y. So again--I only know what my own body tells me, so please don't anyone take anything I post as anything other than my own experience. That's all I'm competent to post about.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Pawz4me

[GoVanGogh]

1 hour ago, Selkie said:

This is just a general observation, not about this thread or anyone who has posted - Discussions about nutrition get muddied up because many people mainly think about it from a weight loss angle, while others are more focused on overall health. Not that being a healthy weight isn't very important, but there are so many other aspects of health that need to be considered, too. There are plenty of foods that may help you lose weight, but have a high likelihood of causing disease in your future. And there are people who look fit on the outside but are in abysmal health on the inside.

When I say I'm relieved to be free of food cravings, it isn't because of weight (although the weight loss has been a happy side effect). I'm relieved because disease-promoting foods have lost all their appeal. I started eating WFPB not because I wanted to lose weight, but because I wanted to give my body optimal nutrition for long term health.

Optimal nutrition for long term health is 100% why I went whole food, plant based. After my young onset Parkinson’s diagnosis - and after several months of Woe Is Me comfort food eating - I decided wfpb was what my body needed. I am a researcher. It can drive my DH crazy, because I am one to read dozens of books and make notes and outline what I have researched. I was finding reports on how to slow the progression, how to regain my mobility and strength, how to live a healthy life with Parkinson’s . Over and over again I was reading: Eat lots of plants, esp dark colored plants and leafy greens. Do yoga. Get physical exercise every single day. Reduce stress. Positive thinking. Meditate. Get enough sleep. I knew that in order to eat lots of plants, I needed to make them the focus of my diet. My Parkinson’s symptoms actually had started in my gut and initially my family doctor had sent me to a gastro specialist who spent the better part of a year running numerous tests. I was scoped both ends and back again. They found nothing. I spent a year just eating toast and white rice bc - I had no desire to eat, everything smelled horrible, I gagged at the sight of any food, I would vomit when trying to walk into a grocery store because all the smells overwhelmed me. It felt very much like my first trimester morning sickness. I had dozens of pregnancy tests. My family doctor sent me to the hospital on several occasions for fluid iv because of dehydration. Every hospital visit, first thing they would do was run a pregnancy test. I have a family history of colon cancer so was tested and scanned for so many cancers. Then I was ultimately diagnosed with young onset Parkinson’s. So, after all this research, to decide to go whole food, plant based, was an epic challenge. Everything green smelled rotting to me. (You lose your sense of smell with Parkinson’s, but in some people - like me - they go through an initial period of hyper sensitivity to smells.) I worked with a dietician for a while and she helped get me going. Lemon was one of the few tastes I liked, so we started with lemon yogurt from a local dairy. When I could tolerate that, we added berries to the yogurt. It took over a year to get to the point that I eliminated all meat and almost all egg and dairy and am 99% plant powered. Along the way, I met this older lady that is plant based, gluten free vegan and she has so much energy and vitality and she really inspired me that it was possible to be both gluten free and wfpb vegetarian. (Before talking with her, it seemed too daunting.) I really had no idea that I would lose lifelong food cravings, weight would become a non-issue, my chronic pain would go away. Really, aside from the damn Parkinson’s, I feel better and stronger than I have in years. At 55, I can bench press and deadlift over 100 pounds. People say, Oh, I could never do that, I could never give up certain foods, etc. To me it isn’t about giving up foods, it doesn’t feel restrictive, it is about taking advantage of all the fruits and vegetables out there, beyond what the corner grocery store sells. I go the the farmer’s market and try new foods. I grow my own microgreens. (Did you know you can eat cantaloupe microgreens? They taste like cantaloupe!) In all of my research, much the same is said for heart disease, stroke and diabetes - eat mostly plants, get enough sleep, exercise, do yoga, reduce stress. I have a close family member with diabetes and she looks at me and says she wouldn’t want to live like I do. But I look at her and think the same. She has been wheelchair bound since she was in her early 60’s due to obesity and diabetes. I feel like, both ways of living are hard, pick the hard you can best live with. For me, it is wfpb. And really - I do feel like I went through a detox - after that, it isn’t hard at all. Now it is quite enjoyable. 

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, Kassia said:

exactly what I do (first sentence quoted).  Many years ago, I was put on Prozac for binge eating after a period of anorexia (lifetime of eating disorders).  I got relief almost immediately, which made me a firm believer that many times those cravings are biological and definitely not a weakness or lack of willpower - our bodies and brains are craving something and will make it very very difficult to resist. 

And another thing about willpower that I find so frustrating.  We can use our willpower 23 1/2 hours a day and be so so strong but then finally cave and that 30 minutes does us in.  I'm not sure that's I'm explaining this the way I want to - people like us DO have willpower but using it 24/7 is exhausting.  It only takes a few minutes to undo so many times we did stop ourselves from giving in. 

Yup. And what are the chances that that 30 minutes of "weakness" or "will power fatigue" happens when there isn't food available? Almost none - food is EVERYWHERE. That there is candy at the check out of every crafts store, book store, freaking HARDWARE store, office supply store, etc is criminal as far as I'm concerned, when we have an epidemic of obesity and food addiction. (and most people with food addictions will NOT admit it to others so trust me, more is out there than people realize)

Like with other addictions, it gets to a point where you are not eating because it makes you feel good, but because it chases away feeling bad, for a while. Not long though, and then you are eating again, even when full or feeling sick. 

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I am an obese person with no eating disorder. No cravings to battle. That doesn’t make me better than anyone else. It just makes me frustrated because 90% of the weight loss tips out there are things that I naturally do already. (Ironically I can look back now to when I was thin and I can see signs of insulin resistance even then but no one believed me because I was thin. ). 

Having seen my mom's weight gain and struggle to lose it, despite great eating habits, I totally believe you. SO much of it is not understood yet. 

[ktgrok]

Realizing too, things like, "WFPB with lots of legumes" might be better on the whole for people across a populaition, and still not good for certain individuals. Sort of like if they said that 2 servings a week of red wine were good for XYZ, which might be true for a population, but not for an alcoholic who would then binge drink. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Realizing too, things like, "WFPB with lots of legumes" might be better on the whole for people across a populaition, and still not good for certain individuals. Sort of like if they said that 2 servings a week of red wine were good for XYZ, which might be true for a population, but not for an alcoholic who would then binge drink. 

This is my personal issue. I have zero issues with someone eating WFPB. I admire it. I have had trials of so many different WOE plans. I wholeheartedly agree that Whole Foods are healthy. (I believe that animal proteins are also a form of Whole Foods that are healthy but respect that some disagree with that.). I have done Doctor Gregors Daily Dozen. I agree with it in theory but my body could not tolerate it in its entirety. I am sorry that my body can’t tolerate the legumes that he wants me to eat. I am sorry that I can’t tolerate the number of fruits that he wants me to eat. I am sorry that I can’t tolerate the grains that he wants me to eat. I wanted to but despite staying on it for months my glucometer didn’t lie about it’s effect on me.
 

I eat one fruit a day (in rebellion because it still elevates my sugars a bit).

I eat his recommended amounts of greens daily.  

I eat flaxseed daily. 

I exercise daily. 

I eat berries daily. 

I have cruciferous veggies daily. 

I eat his daily recommended other vegetables daily. 

I eat nuts daily. 

I eat spices including turmeric daily. 

I drink the recommended amount daily. 
 

btw- I still have fibromyalgia. I still have pain. I don’t believe that losing control over my tightly controlled blood sugars (by adding in the parts I can’t tolerate) would change that. 
 

[Kassia]

32 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

 

Like with other addictions, it gets to a point where you are not eating because it makes you feel good, but because it chases away feeling bad, for a while. Not long though, and then you are eating again, even when full or feeling sick. 

 

Yes, I use food to soothe and distract myself many times.  And I don't feel full ever.  Never have - since I was an infant.  My hypothalamus doesn't work so I suspect it's related to that?  I have no sense of fullness and can be a bottomless pit if I allow it.