Does this sound like a bad idea?

[Elizabeth86]

I just read that local hospitals are allowing covid positive employees to come to work as long as they are a symptomatic due to staffing shortage crisis. Yikes! 

[Kassia]

This has been going on for a while at many places and I think it's a terrible idea.

[Kassia]

This is from January 3rd - they allowed employees with mild symptoms to work as well:

https://fox8.com/news/coronavirus/summa-health-employees-can-continue-working-with-mild-covid-symptoms-hospital-officials-say/

[Elizabeth86]

1 hour ago, Kassia said:

This has been going on for a while at many places and I think it's a terrible idea.

lol I had no idea!

[Kassia]

4 minutes ago, Elizabeth86 said:

lol I had no idea!

One of my sons told me during the holidays that one of his friends (who works at a nursing home or health care facility) was told to come in even after he tested positive but didn't have symptoms.  That was the first I had heard of it.  

[plaidpants]

Yep. No negative test needed as long as it's been 5 days since test or symptoms, you're getting better, no fever or diarrhea. Bizarre.

[KungFuPanda]

It’s a horrible idea, but reducing staff would be a worse idea at this point. They’re playing the hand they’re dealt. 

[Drama Llama]

I feel like the only actually good idea would be people getting vaccinated, wearing masks, and being aware of levels of spread in their community and adjusting their activities accordingly.

I live in an area where people do those things, and we haven’t had the horrifying hospital stories other people have.  Our healthcare workers have worked incredibly hard, but it hasn’t been what other people describe in purple or red areas.

[mommyoffive]

Yep, I have heard of this for a few weeks now.  I also read an article about more people getting Covid while being in the hospital that they thought was because of staff coming in positive.  

[HS Mom in NC]

What else can they do?  Remember, you can only choose an option(s) that include all of the following: 1. it exists 2. you know about it 3. you have access to it.

No one knows of or has access to healthcare workers that exist who are currently testing negative.  When you come in with a head injury from a car accident because a drunk hit you, you're going to roll the dice choose a healthcare worker who has tested positive but has no symptoms rather than no healthcare worker. You may even choose one who does have symptoms if that's the only available option in a crisis situation.

Movies, tv, and novels (which we consume far too much of as a society) have created the false impression that the ideal option always exists-it doesn't.  Plenty of people will tell you they know movies, tv, and novels aren't real, but way too many people talk about real life like it's a fantasy where there's always a good option and everything will work out just fine if only people make the right choice.  These people are idealists and shouldn't be in charge of anything that matters.

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

What else can they do?  Remember, you can only choose an option(s) that include all of the following: 1. it exists 2. you know about it 3. you have access to it.

and 4. you have the will to implement it.

#4 is the crux that led to the current messed-up situation. We knew what we would have had to do to prevent the uncontrolled spread. People were simply unwilling to accept minor inconveniences for the greater good, and politicians were unwilling to disgruntle their followers.

The current health care crisis was completely forseeable. But apparently most humans cannot be bothered to think long-term and beyond their instant gratification.

Edited January 28, 2022 by regentrude

[ShepCarlin]

Ugh. Bad idea but they are so overwhelmed and under staffed it seems like they don't have another option. Just this week I've had my vet and optometrist offices say they are understaffed due to staff with COVID. My dog has a limpy leg but they can't get her in until Tuesday. Boys' pediatrician had a nurse just quit, no notice. I don't know if it was a COVID issue or not but I can't imagine losing nursing staff at a pediatrician's office during a pandemic. She's a small practice so one nurse out hurts tremendously. 

Thankful for my supply of N95 masks and vaccine status. Just wish everyone in my area would wear any kind of a mask. Or get vaccinated. 

[Elizabeth86]

1 hour ago, mommyoffive said:

Yep, I have heard of this for a few weeks now.  I also read an article about more people getting Covid while being in the hospital that they thought was because of staff coming in positive.  

I’m pretty sure this what happened with my aunt that passed from covid. She was in the hospital with kidney trouble and then tested positive.

[Elizabeth86]

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

What else can they do?  Remember, you can only choose an option(s) that include all of the following: 1. it exists 2. you know about it 3. you have access to it.

No one knows of or has access to healthcare workers that exist who are currently testing negative.  When you come in with a head injury from a car accident because a drunk hit you, you're going to roll the dice choose a healthcare worker who has tested positive but has no symptoms rather than no healthcare worker. You may even choose one who does have symptoms if that's the only available option in a crisis situation.

Movies, tv, and novels (which we consume far too much of as a society) have created the false impression that the ideal option always exists-it doesn't.  Plenty of people will tell you they know movies, tv, and novels aren't real, but way too many people talk about real life like it's a fantasy where there's always a good option and everything will work out just fine if only people make the right choice.  These people are idealists and shouldn't be in charge of anything that matters.

I don’t know what else they can do. I wasn’t really look for such a deep conversation. It was just my way of saying damn this sucks. 

[Drama Llama]

11 minutes ago, Elizabeth86 said:

 damn this sucks. 

Yes it does. 

[kokotg]

They're doing the same thing with teachers in Georgia (though not in my husband's district so far, at least)

[kokotg]

2 hours ago, plaidpants said:

Yep. No negative test needed as long as it's been 5 days since test or symptoms, you're getting better, no fever or diarrhea. Bizarre.

This isn't the after 5 days CDC thing, though--this is people coming to work the same day they test positive if they don't have symptoms.

[bolt.]

I can see the pressure and the need to continue providing healthcare if at all possible.

I've got some questions around what is meant by "hospital employees" here. There are many non-patient facing jobs in hospitals (cleaning, laundry, parking attendant, lab work) and there are some few jobs that can be done in complete isolation (such as maybe office work or grounds-keeping). It's possible that "employees" of various types are being allowed to work in various capacities, but not in all capacities (i.e. not in direct patient care). That would be quite reasonable (given the circumstances) and yet give rise to some alarming headlines.

I could also see that it might be reasonable for low-symptom covid positive employees to care for patients who are also covid-positive in covid-isolated wards.

It's still dicey of course. Employees still encounter one another, share breathing space, touch objects, and travel to/from work even if they are non-patient-facing in their work responsibilities (or if they are C-positive working in a C-ward). The risk is not negligible but it might be acceptable in an emergency. And we are definitely in an emergency!

PPE also makes a huge difference. In hospitals, they are using real PPE: suits and respirators and everything. It's not like they are just cloth masking and using hand sanitizer like the rest of us. They know how to limit infections during surgery and how to handle superbug outbreaks. If we can trust anyone to know how to work while infected: these people at least have *some* chance of being successful.

But: on the other hand: the hospital is where all the extra vulnerable people are!

It's a tough thing to figure out! Medical ethics is never easy!

Edited January 28, 2022 by bolt.

[rebcoola]

Very bad idea a urologist did surgery here recently while actively coughing.  It had bee  7 days and his fever had broken and things are getting desperate.  All we can do is our best to stay out of the hospital at this point.

[BlsdMama]

6 hours ago, Kassia said:

This has been going on for a while at many places and I think it's a terrible idea.

In the words of my daughter, “Well mom, they might die from Covid, but they’ll definitely die if we don’t feed them.”

 She works as a CNA while in nursing school. She’s not wrong. 

[KungFuPanda]

This reminds me of the military expression "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want."  

[Pawz4me]

It's certainly not optimal, but for me -- I'm pretty sure if I have a heart attack or am in an auto accident or need emergency room care for any reason I'm not going to be much concerned about whether the EMT, paramedic, nurse, or doc has or is just recovering from Covid. I'd care very much if those professionals weren't around to help me.

You have to play the hand you're dealt. 

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

No one knows of or has access to healthcare workers that exist who are currently testing negative.  

Um, they exist. Some care enough to curtail their out of work activities in order to mostly avoid getting sick. If my DH (frontline worker) has had Covid, he's been COMPLETELY asymptomatic. He's not even had a reason to test. We are careful. He is careful. He's had two different jobs during this pandemic, and at one facility, they were extremely careful (any cases originated outside of work and were few and far between), and the other has been less careful in places like breakrooms, but they all mostly had it before vaccination around the holidays last year. They've not had to do drastic subbing this year due to high cases.

My optometrist was also careful outside of work for her patient's sake, but she got Covid from a patient.

It is not inevitable that all HCWs will get it or that they will all get Omicron during a surge. It's just not. People can choose their behaviors and precautions. 

Our state has been close to a crisis a couple of times, but they have zoned the state to promote sharing of resources and even sometimes personnel. They have pulled in the national guard when needed as well. 

Considering how the legislature has tied our governor and public healthcare infrastructure into knots, and the fact that we live in a very anti-mask/vaccine part of the state, we've done a lot better than it could've been. 

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

In the words of my daughter, “Well mom, they might die from Covid, but they’ll definitely die if we don’t feed them.”

 She works as a CNA while in nursing school. She’s not wrong. 

 

3 hours ago, bolt. said:

I can see the pressure and the need to continue providing healthcare if at all possible.

 

It's a tough thing to figure out! Medical ethics is never easy!

 

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

This reminds me of the military expression "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want."  

Good points that I hadn't thought of.  

[HS Mom in NC]

57 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Um, they exist.

Not on the scale needed. With the nursing shortage there aren't enough nurses even if every single one was in perfect health.  So my point is, medical facilities have no choice but do what they're doing, even if it's far from ideal, by allowing people who've tested positive but aren't showing symptoms to treat patients who face a greater risk of harm from understaffed facilities.

I'm frustrated with people criticizing the medical profession (and schools)  as they have to make tough decisions in their impossible situations. Aren't they exactly the people we should give the benefit of the doubt? It's not like medical staff are unaware of COVID risks to patients; they know better than any of the rest of us the risk factors to each type of patient they encounter, they're just doing the very best they can trying to weigh every factor out there and make the best decision that's realistically possible.

[Dmmetler]

6 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Yep, I have heard of this for a few weeks now.  I also read an article about more people getting Covid while being in the hospital that they thought was because of staff coming in positive.  

They've been testing my mother (and presumably other patients) regularly, presumably so they can catch COVID early and treat if needed. 

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

Um, they exist. Some care enough to curtail their out of work activities in order to mostly avoid getting sick. If my DH (frontline worker) has had Covid, he's been COMPLETELY asymptomatic. He's not even had a reason to test. We are careful. He is careful. He's had two different jobs during this pandemic, and at one facility, they were extremely careful (any cases originated outside of work and were few and far between), and the other has been less careful in places like breakrooms, but they all mostly had it before vaccination around the holidays last year. They've not had to do drastic subbing this year due to high cases.

My optometrist was also careful outside of work for her patient's sake, but she got Covid from a patient.

It is not inevitable that all HCWs will get it or that they will all get Omicron during a surge. It's just not. People can choose their behaviors and precautions. 

Our state has been close to a crisis a couple of times, but they have zoned the state to promote sharing of resources and even sometimes personnel. They have pulled in the national guard when needed as well. 

Considering how the legislature has tied our governor and public healthcare infrastructure into knots, and the fact that we live in a very anti-mask/vaccine part of the state, we've done a lot better than it could've been. 

I think she meant sufficient quantities of replacements.  Not that there are zero, but there aren’t enough.

[kbutton]

30 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Not on the scale needed. With the nursing shortage there aren't enough nurses even if every single one was in perfect health.  

13 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I think she meant sufficient quantities of replacements.  Not that there are zero, but there aren’t enough.

Okay, that makes sense. I hear so much capitulation that I start to see it everywhere. 🙂 DH gets frustrated with the capitulation mentality too--he just doesn't see it as that big of a sacrifice to do common sense things to protect his patients. 

[Farrar]

I agree with others that this is not a good hand we're playing and this is not a good policy. But part of the reason they changed it (in addition to the need) is that asymptomatic, boosted, vaxxed people in half decent protective gear are simply not that likely to spread the virus. 

And I know many HCW's who have literally not gotten Covid through this whole thing. No one is to blame at this point if they get it - omicron is just so easy to catch. But obviously not every single HCW in America has Covid right now. I mean, come on. There's hyperbole and there's... absurdity.

[HS Mom in NC]

4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

But obviously not every single HCW in America has Covid right now. I mean, come on. There's hyperbole and there's... absurdity.

I don't think anyone is saying every single worker in America has COVID.  But it's rampant right now in so many places that they have to create a policy that reflects the worst case scenario. Surges keep happening because this virus mutates quickly and vaccine and mask compliance aren't high enough.  More and more medical staff are quitting because of burn out, which leads to more burn out for those remaining, which will lead to more quitting, which leads to more burn out for those left....  I just don't think enough people really grasp the situation here.  It's the beginning of viscous cycle in medicine and teaching.