Involvement with Scouts as kids get older

[saw]

DS15 has been involved in Scouts since he was small, and he really enjoys it. In our Troop, however, the older kids tend to stop attending meetings/activities once they get to around 14/15. They simply stop showing up, quietly do their Eagle, and then drop off. Is this usual for Scout Troops? We don't really have any to compare to. We'll be moving this summer and would like to find somewhere to move to with an active Troop with older kids involved, but if this is normal that would be useful to know. 

I think part of it is that, in our Troop, the activities tend to be very much the same year-in year-out so the kids get bored of the same old campsites, so I'm guessing it may be different elsewhere. 

[Janeway]

I’ve noticed that only a few kids actually stick around into the older ages. But those kids also become the leaders and really stand out. They also become great role models for the others.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Janeway

[EmilyGF]

That's basically wat happens in my son's troop. He's doing Eagle right now, and at 16, he's one of the oldest in the troop. 

That said, a lot of the older kids will stop by once a month or every other month, so he comes home having seen an old buddy sometimes.

Our troop isn't organized enough to have the same activities year-in-year-out. It seems like every week is made up as they go!

I agree with what @Janewaysaid about leadership. My son is not a natural leader, but he's looked up to by the boys in his scout troop and of course has actual leadership roles. (The boys of his troop actually voted him citizen of the month at school, too! The vote required to win was so small that the younger boys marshalled the scouts and that was enough!)

Emily

[chiguirre]

That's pretty typical of the troop dd's Sea Scout Ship is associated with. If your ds wants to continue scouting after his Eagle, he could look into Venturing or Sea Scouts. Those groups tend to have older populations because you have to be at least 14 to join and you age out at 21 (although most people disappear once they graduate).

[Lecka]

We moved away from my son’s Troop, but when he was younger and joined they said that they knew a lot of kids got busy with sports, school, and jobs when they were older teens but always wanted them to do their Eagle project even if they didn’t have time to participate more regularly.  
 

The ones who did stay involved were given leadership roles and it seemed really good for them.  But it seemed more like they were split up and paired with an adult helping with younger kids.  Then I think their “thing we do together” was going to — I’m blanking on the name, but a month-long backpacking trip in the summer.  Some other teens that were too busy during the school year would also go on that backpacking trip.

 

To me — looking for a Troop that did that backpacking trip would be important.  Sometimes if someone wants to go from a smaller troop they can go along with another troop.  The smaller religious troops do this sometimes I think.  I think there are also leaders who go every year from small small troops, whether they are sending any youth or not.  
 

Edit:  I was thinking of Philmont.  

Edited November 12, 2021 by Lecka

[HomeAgain]

Ds's troop just had 5 scouts make eagle at the same board of review.  There's no quiet here. 🙂 I mean, yes, the troop is heavy with 11-12yos, and kids tend to make decisions about scouting as they get older.  BUT, the older kids tend to stick around if they are going for eagle.  They mentor, take leadership positions, encourage the younger ones.  This is also a troop that changes things up and offers different opportunities, both within the troop and the council.  Older scouts who have aged out tend to stay on the email distro and come to support the newer kids at volunteer opportunities and popcorn sales or show up to a meeting to say hello when they're home on college break.

My oldest ds's troop was similar.  There was always a handful of older scouts showing up, taking on other positions.  But for both of them, we had to search around to find a troop with the right culture.  We didn't want one that felt wrong, so I ask questions of the scoutmasters before ever showing up.  Things like

How many make eagle in a year, on average?

How is the troop meeting structured?

What does scout led mean in practice?

And the best troops we've found tend to answer:

We don't have an average.  We offer support, but it changes from year to year.

Troop meetings are typically like this...<insert rundown of meeting, how the kids take control, what sort of support is offered by the adults>

Scout led means that the scouts are given enough freedom to make mistakes, learn from them, but there are adults making sure the line into danger isn't crossed.  They're given advice, but are free to take it or not on most matters.

I like getting a lot of "I don't know"s to my questions and then a lead up with how they do it.  It lets me know that it's not too heavy or too light with adult leadership.  It's the ones that have firm answers or no answer at all that we steer clear from.  This also means that each of my kids has found a 'best fit' troop up to half an hour away and two towns over. 

[Lecka]

The other thing is that sometimes if the older boys are going to go camping — they just go camping and it’s not discussed at the meetings and not organized through the meetings.  They just arrange it among themselves and go.

This might be happening a little without you knowing about it.  
 

Edit:  so there might be some more camping that is associated with the Troop, and some teens who don’t go to meetings during the school year might go, but it’s not official stuff even though it’s associated with it.  

Edited November 12, 2021 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I my kids were younger so I don’t know what parents of older kids said, but for some parents they want their kids to grow up to be people who will spend time with nature, and not just go when someone else plans for them to go.  I think they encourage their kids to make their own camp-outs as they get older, instead of official ones.

I think that is intentional to give them ownership.  
 

I think it does make it hard to know how much that is going on, though, from attending the meetings.  

[Miss Tick]

Traditionally, as scouts get to driving age, they have more demands on their time - jobs, academics, video games, etc. At that point attendance is driven by personal interest more than any over-arching approach by BSA. HomeAgain and Lecka have some good questions or things to consider. The personality issue extends to the adults, too. My ds's troop has two stellar adults who have really made scouting a pleasure for ds, a scout master whose son had aged out, but he continues in the position, and a parent with boys straddling my ds who is coordinating the second troop trip to Philmont.

Another thing to look for, if possible, would be a troop that has boys from multiple school districts. That can reduce some of the "insider group" issues.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Are these older boys hoping to make Eagle? Are they becoming Eagles young and then leaving?

The first requirement is be active in your troop for 6 months.

The fourth requirement is be active for 6 months in a position of responsibility.

Are they fulfilling these requirements?

If they have not yet become an Eagle, they have to be participating as leadership is required in order to Eagle. If the troop is allowing non-participating boys to move forward without actually fulfilling the requirements, I would question the leadership of the troop. No scout should "quietly do their eagle".  One of the major tenets of Eagle is showing leadership by leading a group through a major project. It is lead by the eagle prospect, not done by the eagle prospect. 

In my experience, the older boys who stopped showing up and participating did not earn Eagle; they all plateaued at Life Scout. If Eagle was earned young then, yes, those boys typically dropped out and became involved in more school related activities or work and tangentially participated in scouts. My DS earned Eagle at 16 and remained involved in scouts as a youth leader through his 18th birthday. Then he walked away from scouts and has never looked back. It makes me sad as he is OA and I wish he would participate at that level.

[EmilyGF]

57 minutes ago, SusanC said:

Traditionally, as scouts get to driving age, they have more demands on their time - jobs, academics, video games, etc. At that point attendance is driven by personal interest more than any over-arching approach by BSA. HomeAgain and Lecka have some good questions or things to consider. The personality issue extends to the adults, too. My ds's troop has two stellar adults who have really made scouting a pleasure for ds, a scout master whose son had aged out, but he continues in the position, and a parent with boys straddling my ds who is coordinating the second troop trip to Philmont.

Another thing to look for, if possible, would be a troop that has boys from multiple school districts. That can reduce some of the "insider group" issues.

The old joke was that boys needed to finish their Eagle before fumes got in their way - car fumes and perfumes.

Emily

[theelfqueen]

The last troop we were involved with had a pretty good older attendance primarily because they rotated high adventure groups every year (so one year Philmont, one year Sea Base, one year Boundary Waters) which drew the older boys - we would send off a good sized contingent every year - Middle went to both Philmont and Sea Base. 

Oldest was involved in his troop (different troop) basically until he left for college but he became more focused on Explorers and Wrestling as he got older. He made Eagle at 15 and earned 3 palms so ... he didn't completely disappear. They would do an instate camp one year and an out of state the next. 

Youngest never really connected with scouts and moved on as he got busy with flying. 

Edited November 12, 2021 by theelfqueen

[Miss Tick]

Another thing ds's troop does is put together a summer trip to a larger scout camp. It is intended for scouts who have been to the local, smaller camp already for a couple of summers. This seems easier to put together than High Adventure, and a nice bridge between the small, local camp and High Adventure.

[SKL]

My girls were in AHG, and we dropped out when they started high school.

The good thing is that these are active kids/families in the community.

The challenge is that this also means they will be active in school and community things outside of scouts.  And each of these activities takes up more and more time as kids get older.

In our case, the AHG meetings were on Thursday evenings, when my kids often had other commitments.

Another factor was that my kids were not friends with the AHG kids outside of AHG activities, because we did not live close or have anything else in common.  They did like the other girls in their unit, but the occasional get-togethers were not enough to really nurture the friendships.  We all regret that, but it just isn't realistic to do so many different things, and for my family, school activities come first.

An additional factor was the ideology of the organization and the group.  I like the families and respect their beliefs, but I cannot support certain ideologies personally.  I was a bit naive going in, thinking we could just ignore the things we don't agree with.  That works with younger kids, but high schoolers are pretty aware of their world, and I don't want them to think I'm a hypocrite.  (And lest you think this is only an issue with conservative groups, my 11yo niece in Girl Scouts was seriously bullied during summer camp over the scouts' inability to accept differences, and their leaders' inability to appropriately manage the situation.)

[City Mouse]

I would agree that high adventure planning can keep the older boys involved. I do think it has a lot to do with the adult leadership.  When my DS started Boy Scouts, the long the leader always said it was “boy led”. To him (the scoutmaster) that meant he only  provided guidance for the activities that he wanted. He provided no assistance to scouts who wanted other activities. Kids can’t plan things if they haven’t learned to do that. So, as teh kids got older and got bored with the activities that were supported by the scout master, they left. 
When this scout master finally retired, a new crop of adults got involved and things changed. They provided the assistance and encouragement that the scouts needed to be able to plan things. The troop went from 0 Eagles in 12 years to 6 in the last 2 years.  

[DawnM]

that is not true for our area for the most part.   My older boys are Eagle Scouts and their troop stayed active through the teen years.  

Several of our parents had a rule for their boys that they weren't allowed to get their license until they got Eagle, they were worried about the fumes (perfumes and car fumes) once they had more independence.   But honestly, our boys were pretty involved anyway.

Edited November 12, 2021 by DawnM

[Loowit]

Our troop had mostly older scouts when my older DS crossed over from Webelos.  Most of them stuck with it until they aged out at 18, but they were friends and had been together since Tiger Cubs.  Only two of them made eagle, and those were right around their 18th b-day.  Sadly we stopped getting very many cub scouts and most of those started dropping out for sports and other activities around Webelos age so we stopped getting scouts crossing over in very large amounts.  Our last crossover was 3? years ago.  We actually got a good sized group who were there for about a year, but then a number of families moved and the rest quit without their friends there.  So I guess IME we are seeing less even going into scouts.

My older DS stuck with scouts until he was 18.  He got eagle at 16.  When he left he was a Junior Assistant Scout Master.  My youngest, who just turned 16 last month, has now decided to quit scouts.  We had combined with another troop because we were down to only three scouts, but it happened right around the time of covid.  The new troop was not good with precautions so DS didn't feel safe attending, so he gave up.  He was about halfway to eagle when he quit, which makes me sad for him and angry that the troop couldn't follow safety guidelines.

Scouting in our area seems to be dying.  We had a huge loss with some of the recent changes in the last few years.  And boys (and now girls) are not joining because they have too much going on.  The ones that I have seen stick with it are ones that get involved in leadership roles or OA (Order of the Arrow).  A few have done Venturing crews (DD and older DS were in one for a while), but it is hard to keep up numbers at that age group, when they have so much other stuff going on in late high school and early college.  Last year we weren't able to recharter our pack and this year we will not be rechartering our troop.  It is sad because this is the same pack and troop DH was in, and his dad helped found 40 some years ago.

[wathe]

Here scouting is structured differently:  Troop ends at age 14.  14-18 all move to their own section. They have more responsibility for planning, and more freedom to set their own group goals.   The local group does lots very high-interest stuff with a focus on back country/remote camping.  This year they are planning a trip to Nunavut. Some of them work on their Queen Scout award, but plenty who aren't interested in top section awards stay active and engaged  just for the joy of scouting.  (14-18 yo section here is called Venturers, but I think it's quite different than what's called Venturers in the US  Here it's the next age group up from troop, not an alternative program).  I think it helps with retention.  11-18 is a really big age spread and I think it would be harder to keep the older ones engaged

Edited November 12, 2021 by wathe

[Lecka]

Here is what I would say about the leadership requirement — I think there are things that a parent of a younger child wouldn’t see.

Like — someone could be doing all kinds of leading and planning for the older teens’ summer trips, but it wouldn’t be visible at the evening meetings.

My point is more that I think there are things that are not as visible to a younger parent.

But the Scout leaders are aware of it.

There are also events that parents don’t necessarily attend, and parents may not see that there are, for example, some teens who drive themselves and meet there instead of getting into the bus in the church parking lot.  

[Granny_Weatherwax]

@Lecka I appreciate what you are saying but...

Yes, there is behind the scenes planning that goes on (like making phone calls, etc) but the leadership part has to be face-to-face. Those boys making the calls or writing letters or whatever have to report to the troop not the scout master. There is a reason for meetings, the reason behind the leadership positions (like secretary and scribe). They take notes about the business dealings of the troop. The boys discuss what has occurred and vote on future action. Attendance at meeting is required for leadership. There is no way around it. Yes, the scoutmaster is kept in the loop but a good scoutmaster is guiding and teaching the boys HOW to lead; he or she is not responsible for reporting the work to the troop.

Also, scouts should not be driving themselves to any scouting events.  Every unit we have been involved with required the troop to travel as a group, in  uniform (Class A or B depending on the event). They may carpool or take a larger vehicle but no scout was ever allowed to drive himself and meet up with the rest of the group; insurance liability would be an issue.  The troop has to submit paperwork with driver's names, type of vehicle, proof of insurance, departure times, who's riding with whom (# of adults and # of scouts), etc. With the exception of helping with a larger project (like an eagle project), for  troop sanctioned trips and events, they all traveled together.

[Plateau Mama]

This is pretty typical.  at 15/16 they start to have a lot competing for their time, jobs, girls, after school clubs etc.  Usually they will stay involved until they get their Eagle and then fade into the night. 

[saw]

Thanks all -- interesting. DS and I will look for troops that go to Philmont and so on, and ask about how older Scouts are involved in leadership. Our Troop has leadership issues (I'm in the leadership myself and am trying to encourage Scout-led but there is resistance) and for a lot of Scouts, Eagle is just something that looks good for college. DS really enjoys being in leadership roles and helping younger Scouts, so it would be great if he could continue this.