Seriously Behind in Math! What Do I Do?

[Chelli]

I need some help. Major help. My oldest is halfway through her junior year, but she's not even halfway through Pre-Algebra in math. There are multiple reasons for this difficulty finding the correct math fit in upper elementary, which resulted in basically a lost year of math. Finding what I thought was the perfect math fit in Jr. High only for my daughter to tell me that she spent two years learning nothing. Plus, she really dislikes math and will put it off or not do it if she can. 

In all other ways, she's an amazing student with great grades and wants to go on to higher education (nothing math or science based, more in the humanities). She understands the math dilemma and how that factors into her graduating and future educational choices, but it doesn't seem to result in action. When I try to approach the issue with her, it is not pleasant. There are some untreated issues that we are working on resolving with ADD and anxiety. She also has a job working about 20-30 hours a week (only two days on actual school nights) and is taking two online classes (French 2 and Advanced Logic). 

She says that she prefers spiral programs with me teaching (she says she understands my explanations best). Currently we are using Saxon for Pre-Algebra. 

Please help me come up with some ideas to help me get her through math. 

[EKS]

Since you need to accelerate her progress, I'd consider switching to a program/text that makes this easier.  Saxon is notoriously difficult to accelerate because its strength is beating procedures into the student with all that practice.  If you eliminate problems, you also eliminate its only strength.  So it's going to take a lot of time each day.  That said, if she is doing well with Saxon, she could double the amount of time she spends to get through it more quickly.  You could also eliminate tests.

I have had good success accelerating Lial Basic College Mathematics and Intermediate Algebra as well as Derek Owens Prealgebra, Algebra I, and Algebra 2.  If the student can work the example problems with little or no instruction, then I don't have them do any (or as many) practice problems.  I also try to cover double or even triple the normal number of lessons each day.   

Also, if she has done Saxon 8/7 successfully, she doesn't need to do their prealgebra book as well--she can move directly to Algebra 1.

[chiguirre]

Hugs!

My ds finished high school in TX in 2019 in Special Ed. His transcript showed Algebra, Geometry and Advanced Math Topics, but the reality is that he was working on money handling, basic budgeting and other life skills topics. He will get his diploma when he finishes his job training program in two years. The major takeaway from this is that those course titles do not exactly reflect actual content.

But, since your dd wants to attend college, you do need to get her to a level where she will be able to pass the math requirement in the TX college core curriculum. Even if she goes out of state, it is likely she'll have a similar requirement so you can use the TX course as a guide. The standard course for students who are not pursuing a field that requires calculus is College Algebra MATH 1314. At our local CC there are sections that offer extra help intended for students with a weak math background. Realistically, she'd need to get through Algebra 1, Geometry (this doesn't need to be proof heavy) and some Algebra 2 to be able to go directly into this class without needing remedial math. You can see what level of math she'll need to master to place into MATH 1314 by looking at the TSI test prep materials. It seems that TX is changing its placement test in January 2021, so new prep guides might not be out yet. 

At this point, you might want to look at the textbooks that your local CC uses for its remedial math classes. They'll be the best match to what your dd will need to get through MATH 1314. 

If she's okay with starting at your local CC, she can start taking classes that don't require passing the math placement test while she works on her math skills in remedial classes or with you. That will give her a chance to earn college credits that will transfer while dealing with the math issue at a more relaxed pace.

Good luck!

[Lori D.]

(((((hugs))))) So sorry you guys are in this stressful situation.

If college is the future plan, then admission requirements to most universities includes completion of Algebra 1, Geometry, and Algebra 2. Many universities also want a 4th math that has Algebra 2 as a prerequisite. Some liberal arts colleges only require Algebra 1 and Geometry.

That's a lot of higher math to get through in 1.5 years. Especially since it is an area of difficulty for her, AND it sounds like she has a bit of a "block" about it (anxiety).

Some options, if a 4-year college is the goal after high school:

- Consider calling this sophomore year, rather than junior year, to give her more time to complete the needed math (and any other possible missing credits needed for college admission). So instead of her current track of graduating in Spring 2022, she would then graduate at the end of Fall 2022 (mid-year graduate), or Spring 2023. 

- After high school graduation, instead of going straight to a 4-year college/university, she attends the local community college and either works on an AAS (the "direct to work Associate's degree) that would lead to a job of interest. OR, she takes the general ed. credits for transfer to a future 4-year school. That would also allow her to take any needed remedial/high school maths and work up to taking the College Algebra needed by most college 4-year degrees.
 

For getting through the math now, during high school:

1. Absolutely critical: you sit with her while she does it. Every day. Otherwise, she will continue to put it off. I know we want our kids to take the baton and be responsible to do the work independently, and be able to persevere and do hard things or things we don't like... But clearly, she is letting you know that she is NOT READY to be able to do the math independently. She is asking for help, so provide that help and support she needs: explain the math in the way she understands, and then continue to sit with her for the next 60-90 minutes that it takes for her to do it.

2. Consider a different math program that is not so problem-heavy/time-intensive:
- Power Basics Algebra and Geometry: simplified high school texts, written at a 4th grade level; problems involve real-life applications. Lessons are long, so consider breaking into TWO 45-50 minute sessions, one in the morning and one in the afternoon to motor through a lesson per day. Algebra 1, Geometry
- Lial's Basic College Math -- for your Algebra; this is the basic high school level math text used in many colleges

3. For catching up:
Try doing TWO 45-50 minute sessions of math per day to work through 2 lessons per day. Do Math 6 days a week, and through the summer. Double check the table of contents for the Algebra, Geometry, and Algebra 2, and where there is overlap in instruction/lessons, skip to reduce overall volume of material to have to cover.

OR, do Algebra 1 and Geometry simultaneously -- 1 lesson of Algebra 1 in the morning, and 1 lesson of Geometry in the afternoon, and knock out 2 credits of Math simultaneously.

4. Her job:
If the job is interfering with getting the Math done, then reduce hours or quit for now. If the job is what is most important to her and is providing valuable experience and contacts for what she wants to do as a career in the future, then look over the credits still remaining and pare back to just what will be needed for college admission requirements (see the list below). AND schedule TWO math sessions per day to at least accomplish the Algebra 1 and Geometry credits.

4 credits = English
3 credits = Math (at least Algebra 1, Geometry, many schools require Alg. 2, and some require a 4th math above Alg. 2)
3 credits = Science, with labs (some colleges require Biology and/or Chemistry)
2-3 credits = Social Studies (many colleges require 1 credit US Hist.; some: 1 credit World Hist/Geog., 0.5 credit each Econ/Gov't)
2-3 credits = Foreign Language, same language
1 credit = Fine Arts
* 1 credit = CTE (some colleges require 1 credit of Career-Technical Education)
4-8+ credits = Electives
22+ credits = total, and a minimum ACT or SAT score (that score depends on the school)

BEST of luck in finding what works best, as the two of you discuss her future and what post-high school options are best for her. Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Lori D.

[Chelli]

22 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Hugs!

My ds finished high school in TX in 2019 in Special Ed. His transcript showed Algebra, Geometry and Advanced Math Topics, but the reality is that he was working on money handling, basic budgeting and other life skills topics. He will get his diploma when he finishes his job training program in two years. The major takeaway from this is that those course titles do not exactly reflect actual content.

But, since your dd wants to attend college, you do need to get her to a level where she will be able to pass the math requirement in the TX college core curriculum. Even if she goes out of state, it is likely she'll have a similar requirement so you can use the TX course as a guide. The standard course for students who are not pursuing a field that requires calculus is College Algebra MATH 1314. At our local CC there are sections that offer extra help intended for students with a weak math background. Realistically, she'd need to get through Algebra 1, Geometry (this doesn't need to be proof heavy) and some Algebra 2 to be able to go directly into this class without needing remedial math. You can see what level of math she'll need to master to place into MATH 1314 by looking at the TSI test prep materials. It seems that TX is changing its placement test in January 2021, so new prep guides might not be out yet. 

At this point, you might want to look at the textbooks that your local CC uses for its remedial math classes. They'll be the best match to what your dd will need to get through MATH 1314. 

If she's okay with starting at your local CC, she can start taking classes that don't require passing the math placement test while she works on her math skills in remedial classes or with you. That will give her a chance to earn college credits that will transfer while dealing with the math issue at a more relaxed pace.

Good luck!

Unfortunately, we are in Arkansas now. We moved here in March. The community colleges here require students to take the ACT for admission just like regular universities. There's no way she could pass the math part. Moving from community college to a 4-year university was my original plan. 

[Lori D.]

4 minutes ago, Chelli said:

Unfortunately, we are in Arkansas now. We moved here in March. The community colleges here require students to take the ACT for admission just like regular universities. There's no way she could pass the math part. Moving from community college to a 4-year university was my original plan. 

Possibly covid-19 may work in your favor -- so many of the ACT/SAT test dates have had to be cancelled or postponed, and it is so hard to get into the few locations that have offered the tests due to restrictions (masking/distancing/reduced # of testers in a room), that many colleges have said that they are waiving the required test scores for incoming college freshman for fall 2021, and possible for the following year as well.

Another possibility might be to take the GED rather than have a high school diploma, which might not require an ACT/SAT score for community college admission. HOWEVER, there are downsides to a GED, AND she would still need to work hard on the math to be able to score well on the math portion of the GED. (The GED overall needs to be studied for in advance for all subjects in order to score well.)

[Chelli]

So should we just stop pre-algebra altogether and just move on or try to accelerate through a different pre-algebra program and move to one of the algebra curriculums recommended above? 

[Chelli]

5 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Possibly covid-19 may work in your favor -- so many of the ACT/SAT test dates have had to be cancelled or postponed, and it is so hard to get into the few locations that have offered the tests due to restrictions (masking/distancing/reduced # of testers in a room), that many colleges have said that they are waiving the required test scores for incoming college freshman for fall 2021, and possible for the following year as well.

Another possibility might be to take the GED rather than have a high school diploma, which might not require an ACT/SAT score for community college admission. HOWEVER, there are downsides to a GED, AND she would still need to work hard on the math to be able to score well on the math portion of the GED. (The GED overall needs to be studied for in advance for all subjects in order to score well.)

Yes! I have thought about this multiple times and probably need to explore it more, but I won't feel confident sending her to higher education without at least geometry under her belt. 

[Lori D.]

10 minutes ago, Chelli said:

So should we just stop pre-algebra altogether and just move on or try to accelerate through a different pre-algebra program and move to one of the algebra curriculums recommended above? 

I'm looking at the table of contents for Saxon Algebra 1/2 (is that what you're using for Pre-Algebra?) -- and those are foundational topics and operations to understand, and be *solid* with, in order to have success with the higher maths. Especially if needed to accelerate the learning of those higher maths.

Did she complete Saxon 8/7? And do so with understanding?

Edited December 30, 2020 by Lori D.

[freesia]

7 minutes ago, Chelli said:

So should we just stop pre-algebra altogether and just move on or try to accelerate through a different pre-algebra program and move to one of the algebra curriculums recommended above? 

It is possible she'd be ready for algebra.  Maybe have her do a pre-test.  Have you considered Mathusee.  I think it would be easier to move quickly through bc she wouldn't have to spend time on the concepts that she gets quickly.  I am using Calculus with my dd this year and I love how flexible it is for her..  I would totally use it in your situation.

[chiguirre]

I think that Lori's idea about using Power Basics and calling this her Sophomore year is an excellent idea. If you can get a formal diagnosis, she may qualify for time and a half on the ACT or SAT and that will make getting a passing score much more doable. For that to work, you really need to hold her back because the diagnosis needs to be established before you request the accommodations. I'm not an expert on this, but there are threads about this on here that will give you a ton of information.

Personally, I'd get the Power Basics Algebra and Lial's BCM and look them over. You'll be able to find inexpensive used copies on Amazon. If it looks doable, I'd start in on that.

I'd also explore your CC's website and see if they offer remedial classes. Someone must even if it's not the CC, it's a basic community service for people who are going back to school after a while in the workforce.

[freesia]

2 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

I'm looking at the table of contents for Saxon Algebra 1/2 (is that what you're using for Pre-Algebra?) -- and those are foundational topics and operations to understand in order to have success with the higher maths.

Did she complete Saxon 8/7? And do so with understanding?

Yes, they are foundational, but a lot of them are repeated from other years.  So, if she actually understands arithmetic, decimals, fractions and beginning algebra with variables (which has been covered in Saxon since 4th or 5th grade), she might be ok if she moves to a different curriculum.

OP, Saxon is impossible to accelerate imo.  I think it would be a hard sell to a dd who hates math and avoids it to do 2 lessons a day. 

One thing you could do is plan to start geometry part way through Alg 1 and do geometry and Alg 1 and then Alg 2.  But Idk if I'd use Saxon, I would go with Mathusee.

[Chelli]

2 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

I'm looking at the table of contents for Saxon Algebra 1/2 (is that what you're using for Pre-Algebra?) -- and those are foundational topics and operations to understand in order to have success with the higher maths.

Did she complete Saxon 8/7? And do so with understanding?

We're actually in Saxon 8/7. My plan originally was to put her in Shormann math for her junior and senior year so she could cover three maths in two years, but it didn't work out that way. She really struggles with retention of things I know we've already covered which is why I chose Saxon to start with (spiral on steroids). She does make good grades on the tests, so I know she's finally getting it. I just feel like she has a lot of gaps in math that I didn't even realize. I made the mistake of trying to remove myself from her math education because it was where we had the most contention in the school day, but I'm realizing too late that by removing myself, I lost my ability to recognize when she wasn't understanding. 

[Chelli]

6 minutes ago, freesia said:

It is possible she'd be ready for algebra.  Maybe have her do a pre-test.  Have you considered Mathusee.  I think it would be easier to move quickly through bc she wouldn't have to spend time on the concepts that she gets quickly.  I am using Calculus with my dd this year and I love how flexible it is for her..  I would totally use it in your situation.

Yes, we used Mathusee at the end of elementary, but she got bogged down in the decimal book and asked me to find something else. I even bought MUS Pre-Algebra and Algebra 1 with intentions to return to it, but I started reading reviews on the boards here that said it wasn't rigorous enough to be a true Algebra 1 program, etc. so I went with Mr. D self - paced instead. Big mistake. That was two years of math wasted because she came to me last year and said she had learned nothing. 

[Lori D.]

23 minutes ago, Chelli said:

We're actually in Saxon 8/7... She does make good grades on the tests, so I know she's finally getting it...

Then if Saxon 8/7 is starting to click, I'd finish it, and then as @EKS said above, you can skip Saxon 1/2 and go straight to Algebra.

I would NOT skip Saxon 8/7, since this is her first exposure to those foundational topics.

Also, I would NOT recommend switching to something else to finish Pre-Algebra, since DD is *just* now starting to click with this program. Every switch to a new program takes weeks (months?) for a struggling math student to make the mental switch to the new perspective and way of explaining things.

And while I agree with @freesia's  kind suggestion of MUS as a simple way of doing the higher maths, MUS is NOT spiral, and it is VERY different in presentation than Saxon. Also, when I used MUS with DS#2 (my math struggler), MUS Pre-Algebra was LIGHT (I was supplementing with several other things to beef it up), and in MUS Algebra 1, along about lesson 6 or so, there was either something missing or there was the expectation of the student being able to make a "leap" without any explanations.

Where you could make the switch to something else is when starting Algebra 1. I agree with EKS's assessment of Saxon's strength being massive repetition, and if you think that will take you guys too much time to be able to complete Algebra 1 AND Geometry before high school graduation, then I would strongly recommend looking at Lial's BCM or possibly the Power Basics and see if those will "click" well for DD, AND motor you more quickly through the Math each day than Saxon will.

BEST of luck! Warmest regards, Lori D.


ETA - Never mind my MUS comments -- I see you've already tried it and for several reasons it won't work for you guys. 😉 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Lori D.

[freesia]

12 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Then if Saxon 8/7 is starting to click, I'd finish it, and then as @EKS said above, you can skip Saxon 1/2 and go straight to Algebra.

I would NOT skip Saxon 8/7, since this is her first exposure to those foundational topics.

Also, I would NOT recommend switching to something else to finish Pre-Algebra, since DD is *just* now starting to click with this program. Every switch to a new program takes weeks (months?) for a struggling math student to make the mental switch to the new perspective and way of explaining things.

And while I agree with @freesia's  kind suggestion of MUS as a simple way of doing the higher maths, MUS is NOT spiral, and it is VERY different in presentation than Saxon. Also, when I used MUS with DS#2 (my math struggler), MUS Pre-Algebra was LIGHT (I was supplementing with several other things to beef it up), and in MUS Algebra 1, along about lesson 6 or so, there was either something missing or there was the expectation of the student being able to make a "leap" without any explanations.

Where you could make the switch to something else is when starting Algebra 1. I agree with EKS's assessment of Saxon's strength being massive repetition, and if you think that will take you guys too much time to be able to complete Algebra 1 AND Geometry before high school graduation, then I would strongly recommend looking at Lial's BCM or possibly the Power Basics and see if those will "click" well for DD, AND motor you more quickly through the Math each day than Saxon will.

BEST of luck! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Oh, yes, I was thinking not of switching this year. I'd absolutely finish with 8/7.

[EKS]

43 minutes ago, Chelli said:

I won't feel confident sending her to higher education without at least geometry under her belt. 

Frankly, if you need to skip something, geometry is it.  It is not part of most college's remedial sequences.

[Chelli]

10 minutes ago, EKS said:

Frankly, if you need to skip something, geometry is it.  It is not part of most college's remedial sequences.

So focus on Algebra 1 and 2 or just Algebra 1?

[BusyMom5]

If the Saxon method is working after many fails with other programs, i would stick with it.  My oldest did through the first half of Advanced Math, then went into College Algebra.  That's my plan with DD2 as well.   As for acceleration- I wouldn't move quickly through any math with a kid who struggles.   Slow and steady!  I would make math a year-round subject and I would even graduate her before finishing the math- if shes going to CC, she could continue her math work at home until she's ready for college algebra.  That would be a condition of graduating on time!  

 

I think there are lots of people walking around with PreAlgebra level math skills, so don't get too stressed out!  With work, she can get through the math in college- they have tutors available snd remedial math courses!  

[EKS]

30 minutes ago, Chelli said:

So focus on Algebra 1 and 2 or just Algebra 1?

I'd start with Algebra 1.  If you move directly from Algebra 1 to Algebra 2, you can consolidate all the review that most programs include to counteract the effects of the geometry year, and that will make things go even faster.

[Not_a_Number]

32 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

I think there are lots of people walking around with PreAlgebra level math skills, so don't get too stressed out! 

There are very few people walking around with pre-algebra level math skills, but not in the way you mean. Most people max out at Grade 4, as @EKS is fond of pointing out! 

Seriously, most of my college calculus freshmen couldn't deal with fractions, and for a good number of them, that meant 1/2 + 1/3, not 1/x + 1/(x-1).

[Chelli]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

There are very few people walking around with pre-algebra level math skills, but not in the way you mean. Most people max out at Grade 4, as @EKS is fond of pointing out! 

Seriously, most of my college calculus freshmen couldn't deal with fractions, and for a good number of them, that meant 1/2 + 1/3, not 1/x + 1/(x-1).

She can definitely do 1/2 + 1/3. It took her a year to get fractions, but she understands it. That makes me feel better at least. She had to pass a basic math skills test for her job and passed on the first try. The manager was impressed. She said most of their employees need 2 or 3 attempts to pass. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Chelli said:

She can definitely do 1/2 + 1/3. It took her a year to get fractions, but she understands it. That makes me feel better at least. She had to pass a basic math skills test for her job and passed on the first try. The manager was impressed. She said most of their employees need 2 or 3 attempts to pass. 

Only a year?? That's actually quite fast. She doesn't sound that bad at math, honestly. Just a bit behind schedule, but life doesn't always work out on the schedule you might want. 

I think you should give yourself a break and pat yourself on the back for creating a kid who ACTUALLY understands math. I've taught at fancy, fancy schools and most kids don't get many basic concepts. You're equipping her for life in a good way if you're making sure she's solid. 

[Chelli]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Only a year?? That's actually quite fast. She doesn't sound that bad at math, honestly. Just a bit behind schedule, but life doesn't always work out on the schedule you might want. 

I think you should give yourself a break and pat yourself on the back for creating a kid who ACTUALLY understands math. I've taught at fancy, fancy schools and most kids don't get many basic concepts. You're equipping her for life in a good way if you're making sure she's solid. 

I believe she has math anxiety (if that's even a thing). She can do the math she knows well. She can learn math well with lots of practice and repetition, but when she sees a math problem or is asked to do math, all of that goes out the window and she just shuts down. I can't tell you how many times she'll bring me her math work and ask me to read the problem out loud to her. She says that it helps her better understand what it's asking eventhough she's read the same thing ten times. Once she does that once or twice, she's easily able to complete the rest of the problems even if the other problems are completely different than the one she asked to read for her. It's like she has to retrain herself every time that she can indeed do math. 

[EKS]

39 minutes ago, Chelli said:

She had to pass a basic math skills test for her job and passed on the first try. The manager was impressed. She said most of their employees need 2 or 3 attempts to pass. 

This is because she probably already has better math skills than the majority of the population.  If she has actually mastered the first half of 8/7, this is surely the case.

[Not_a_Number]

52 minutes ago, Chelli said:

I believe she has math anxiety (if that's even a thing). She can do the math she knows well. She can learn math well with lots of practice and repetition, but when she sees a math problem or is asked to do math, all of that goes out the window and she just shuts down. I can't tell you how many times she'll bring me her math work and ask me to read the problem out loud to her. She says that it helps her better understand what it's asking eventhough she's read the same thing ten times. Once she does that once or twice, she's easily able to complete the rest of the problems even if the other problems are completely different than the one she asked to read for her. It's like she has to retrain herself every time that she can indeed do math. 

Ooof. That does sound like math anxiety 😞. Any idea where it comes from? 

[Chelli]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Ooof. That does sound like math anxiety 😞. Any idea where it comes from? 

She actually was an amazing math student until around third grade and her first encounter with fractions using Singapore math. It was the first time she could not grasp the concept. It was also the first time that I could not figure out a way to explain it to her so she could understand it (probably because my own knowledge of fractions was so poor). We struggled for months. I finally decided to leave Singapore and try something else. We finally landed (after multiple curriculum flops) on MathUSee Epsilon which spent an entire year on fractions.  Since that struggle though, she's convinced she's not good in math and approaches anything new in math with trepidation and panic. My guess is that it's related to her anxiety in general. It doesn't help that her younger sister is great at math and flying through Algebra 1 in 8th grade. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Chelli said:

She actually was an amazing math student until around third grade and her first encounter with fractions using Singapore math. It was the first time she could not grasp the concept. It was also the first time that I could not figure out a way to explain it to her so she could understand it (probably because my own knowledge of fractions was so poor). We struggled for months. I finally decided to leave Singapore and try something else. We finally landed (after multiple curriculum flops) on MathUSee Epsilon which spent an entire year on fractions.  Since that struggle though, she's convinced she's not good in math and approaches anything new in math with trepidation and panic. My guess is that it's related to her anxiety in general. It doesn't help that her younger sister is great at math and flying through Algebra 1 in 8th grade. 

Oooooh, that sounds tough 😞 . 

I wish you guys weren't on a tight schedule, because she sounds natively pretty good at math, and the anxiety is probably going to hold her back more than anything else. I wish you had the time to just do some "fun" math, where she could get some confidence back 😕 . 

[Not_a_Number]

I really need to spread the word that fractions are good ol' division and that if you teach it that way from the start, it's a lot clearer 😛 . 

[Garga]

Last year, when he was in 9th grade, my dh15 started going to cyberschool.

My son had always struggled with math.  In 8th grade, he was juuuuuust starting to not hate it. 

So, when he started the cyberschool, I knew I needed to be on my toes when it came to math. So, I sat next to him and watched every recorded lesson. For each homework problem, he would work on the problem, and I would work on the problem and we’d compare answers to see if we both understood it.  If our answers didn’t match, we’d figure out why. My goal in this was that if he got a horrible math teacher, I would be able to step in and know exactly what my son had been taught and help him. 

And you know what? Instead of him having trouble, it turns out that we stumbled across a wonderful math teacher. Just wonderful! And he has blossomed in math these past 1.5 years.

What made it work?

1. She talks slowly. Very slowly. VERY SLOWLY.  Like, sometimes we put her on 1.5 time (most of her lessons are recordings) so that it’s normal speed.  And sometimes when my son puts it at 2.0 time, she still sounds like a normal person and not a chipmunk, because she talks slowly.

The thing is, when my non-mathy son is learning math, he needs her to talk that slowly. It sinks in that way. 

2. She says every single thing she does and uses the correct terms. 

So if a problem is:  2x + 5 = 15 this is what she would say, every single time. Even if we already know this stuff:

”The problem is two X plus five equals 15. We need to isolate the variable, which is X.

To isolate the variable, we need to get rid of that 5.  We can see that the 5 is added to the variable, so to get rid of it, we have to subtract it.  And once we subtract it on one side, we must also subtract it from the other side.  So, on the left I will subtract 5 (and we see her write -5) and also on the right I will subtract 5 (and we see her write -5) (she re-writes the new equation with the subtraction completed)

And now I have two x equals 10.

We still need to isolate that x by itself on the left. The x is being multiplied by 2, to isolate the variable, we must do the opposite, which is to divide by 2. So I will divide by two on the left side...(and we see her write /2 on the left) and we will also divide by 2 on the right side (and we see her write 10/2). 

And 2 divided 2 two is 1, but we don’t write that, so we have x on the left. And 10 divided by 2 is 5.  So now we have X equals 5.”

 

Ok...that was a lot to read.  But she does that every time. Even when she’s not teaching how to solve an equation. Perhaps she’s teaching something much more advanced than that, but one of the steps requires you to solve an equation, even then, she will still walk through every single step, explaining what she’s doing and writing it out the entire time.

I can’t emphasize enough that she speaks out and writes out every single step she does, every single time. It’s not like she says, “Ok, the next step is to solve this equation...” and then she writes it out real quick. Nope. Even though we’re experts now on solving equations, she still slowly says and writes out each step.  I think this is key.

 

And my son just loves math now. And he’s really good at it, too!

He and I work on it for about 1.5 hours a day.  Even though he doesn’t really need me there anymore, I like being involved and he likes me to be there with him (he likes the social interaction with me), so I still do the problems at the same time and we still compare answers. If we don’t match, we check our work and try again.

 

As far as curriculum, I personally liked CLE for math for homeschooling. It was spiral and I think my son did well enough with it.  But I’ve come to realize that it’s not always the curriculum.  For students like my son and your daughter, who don’t intuitively click with math, they need the teacher to slow down and explain each step every single time. 

Now...for my oldest who is in college to be an engineer, this would be silly. But math is intuitive to him. I barely had to show him a concept and he just got it.  Talking slowly and showing every step would have driven him crazy. 

This works for students who struggle to understand math and for whom math tends to fall out of their heads easily.

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Garga

[lewelma]

I would put all your remaining time into Algebra 1 and 2 and learn them well.  I would just do test prep for Geometry (if the ACT is required), which would save you a ton of time. Geometry is not critical to higher math and science like Algebra 1 and 2 are. Skipping geometry does not limit future career options, but skimming through Algebra will.

I agree with a PP, you need to sit with her every moment she is doing math. My youngest requires this and he doesn't have any math anxiety.  I've told him that if he still requires it in university, then he will need to get a study buddy or a study group. Some people just can't practice their math alone even if they have been well taught.

Edited December 31, 2020 by lewelma

[EKS]

45 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I agree with a PP, you need to sit with her every moment she is doing math.

I honestly think that this is the most important part of the process.  

[Amy M]

I'm sorry for your stress about this "essential" subject. My oldest is 13, and he loves math. He is a bit young for his grade, so the first thing I wondered is if your signature is correct that your daughter is 15. If she's 15 and a junior, then she's young for her grade, and it wouldn't be a big problem to call her a sophomore? Having read all the comments, I see that was suggested.

The second thought I had was to use Math U See. Then I saw that was discussed already. 😁But--the WTM boards tend to have Type-A curricula. Lol, I don't know what to call it, but these boards seem to attract those who want the strongest, deepest, most rigorous curricula. MUS is well-beloved by many homeschoolers, and will do just fine for a child trying to get the high school credits done. We used MUS Alg1 and then I accelerated my son through Foerster's Alg 1. Then he made it through MUS Geometry in 8-9 weeks? Now he's accelerating through Jacob's Geometry. 

This allowed me to compare the two programs. While MUS Alg was definitely not as rigorous as Foerster's, it still took my son over half the year, and at least the first half of Foerster's was covered (except for sets) to the point that my son could whiz through it. MUS Alg 1 didn't cover the quadratic formula, which was covered a lot in Foerster's. Then towards the end of Foerster's there were more things not covered in MUS Alg 1 (ds had to slow down!), but I think were in the Geometry, or maybe will show up in MUS Alg2. I also didn't see the gaps Lori mentioned, but maybe Mr. Demme fixed it after all these years? My point is, that if you do decide to teach Geometry, I suggest MUS. The Geometry was easier than what Jacob's is appearing to be, and Mr. Demme explains things very well. If you had 1.5 years to finish Alg1, Geo, and Alg2, and consider half a year for each 😕, MUS Geometry is doable in that amount of time.

Also, I don't really consider MUS as "mastery" (vs. "spiral") at the high school levels. It's like the other books I've seen, in that the concepts do build on themselves, and there's review all along. I could see someone wanting more review, but MUS does have 3 review pages per lesson. Same with Foerster's or Jacob's, though--you have to master the earlier chapters to get the later ones, and every new lesson has review problems. Perhaps I'm not experienced enough to see a big difference there.

I sat with my son for every MUS lesson and read the book, so that if he wasn't understanding something, I could help him. Then I read the Foerster's lessons before he did so I could help him. Now in Mus Geo and Jacob's I haven't been able to keep up, so he's more on his own. So if she wants your help, I'd say like everyone else to do that first thing in the day and sit with her, and nothing else gets done until that's done. Give her lots of praise.

However, if you think she needs to be pushed into action, perhaps telling her you are getting her a tutor to whom she has to answer would be helpful. (like people mentioned a CC course. I suggest you contact Mrs. Flynn with Liberty Tutorials (she talks kinda like Garga described above... She's patient, and expects math to take a good chunk out of your day. The only two negatives for your situation are that she uses tough texts, and I don't know if she would meet privately to tutor your daughter in an accelerated way. But she wants to see every kid succeed at math, if they just have enough help and instruction.)

[Not_a_Number]

On 12/30/2020 at 10:32 PM, EKS said:

I honestly think that this is the most important part of the process.  

Except for kids like my DD, who apparently can no longer work when I'm watching her but is fine when I'm in another room 😂

[Junie]

So much good advice on this thread!

We have used Saxon exclusively from 4th grade up.  (We started with Abeka from K4 to 3 because it's more colorful and user-friendly.)

If she is understanding Saxon, I would recommend sticking with it and trying to double up on lessons.  This might look like two lessons a day or only giving every other test so that you can squeeze in an extra lesson.  The trick will be to push her a little bit but not too hard.  You will have to be the judge of that as you work with her.

I also highly, highly recommend the teaching cds by Art Reed.   Also, Saxon sells cds that give the answer and explanation to every problem.

I would absolutely continue 8/7 and then jump right into Algebra I.   Also, do not take the summer off.  Taking the summer off is disastrous for math for many students, especially if they are behind or are just starting to finally grasp concepts and gain confidence.

 

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Except for kids like my DD, who apparently can no longer work when I'm watching her but is fine when I'm in another room 😂

I'm talking about for kids who are having trouble 😃

[Not_a_Number]

39 minutes ago, Junie said:

Also, do not take the summer off.  Taking the summer off is disastrous for math for many students, especially if they are behind or are just starting to finally grasp concepts and gain confidence.

Oh, that is EXCELLENT advice. Even with my accelerated kiddos, we do math in the summer. It's so easy to forget concepts before they are fully internalized!

 

24 minutes ago, EKS said:

I'm talking about for kids who are having trouble 😃

I know, I know, lol. I'm still sulking about the fact that she works better on her own!! 

[daijobu]

On 12/30/2020 at 5:40 PM, Garga said:

2. She says every single thing she does and uses the correct terms. 

But she does that every time. Even when she’s not teaching how to solve an equation. Perhaps she’s teaching something much more advanced than that, but one of the steps requires you to solve an equation, even then, she will still walk through every single step, explaining what she’s doing and writing it out the entire time.

I can’t emphasize enough that she speaks out and writes out every single step she does, every single time. It’s not like she says, “Ok, the next step is to solve this equation...” and then she writes it out real quick. Nope. Even though we’re experts now on solving equations, she still slowly says and writes out each step.  I think this is key.

And my son just loves math now. And he’s really good at it, too!

This is excellent practice and one many of us should adopt.  Speaking everything out loud using correct terms and writing out each step costs us very little. 

And yet, we are so quick to skip steps and assume the student is following our logic.  Even in my high school geometry class, the teacher rewrote all our subtractions as additions, I suspect in order to remediate our poorly taught junior high algebra.  He always said out loud "We subtract 10 from both sides."   

It costs us very little in time and effort and go through each step, even when we are doing more advanced material.  

[RootAnn]

1 hour ago, daijobu said:

This is excellent practice and one many of us should adopt.  Speaking everything out loud using correct terms and writing out each step costs us very little. 

I'm guilty of assuming one of mine understands & I talk too fast & lose her. I'm going to try to do better.

[Not_a_Number]

24 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

I'm guilty of assuming one of mine understands & I talk too fast & lose her. I'm going to try to do better.

It's super easy to do. I've had to really learn not to do it. 

The longer I spend teaching, the more I realize that a LOT of our assumptions about what kids can understand and remember are wrong. I think the most surprising thing for me has been that a lot of the time, kids don't remember the definitions of the objects we're working with, and that reiterating those definitions is about the most useful thing you can do. 

I was teaching AoPS prealgebra algebra recently online, and I spent a LOT of time repeating (and making the kids repeat) that a variable just meant "some number." We'd rephrase everything in terms of "some number." And we'd do that over and over again. Then next class we'd do the same thing 😛 . 

I've found that out of all exercises, the BEST ones are the ones that evoke the specifics of the concept being studied, and let the kids develop intuitions about them. Again... what you want is to remind the kids what it is they are studying. That's the biggest job. 

[Farrar]

I'm reading through and trying to understand what happened. What did she actually do when she did Mr. D? Because one of two things happened... she either cheated on the whole two years of math and then no wonder she didn't learn anything. Or she did the assignments and the quizzes but just didn't really get a good enough grounding and retook every quiz and test. It's an easy program, so I can see that, but... I guess I'm just not clear.

Seconding all these on point ideas. I would reclassify her grade and have her work on math over the summer as well.

But... I'm also questioning this a little. Like, if she cheated, then that's cruddy and wasted time indeed. But if she went through and did the work and passed the courses... Mr D's is definitely pretty easy, but Power Basics is even easier. Like, if the goal is to just check those credits off, then... she checked them off. She just didn't learn enough. I'd still award the credits and do a serious remediation crash course. But it makes me wonder if she's as far behind as you think.