How do you make abortion the law of the land?

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Carol in Cal. said:

No, but there has been a definite tilt toward the expectation that you would have one, societally, in my adult lifetime.

I think societal expectations are a hard thing to control. I have to say, there are lots of societal expectations I resent, but I've never felt like this was one. Whatever people's politics, lots of people are relatively queasy about abortions. And whether they ought to or not (I'm not currently weighing in), there's lots of stigma around them. 

[Frances]

9 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

No, but there has been a definite tilt toward the expectation that you would have one, societally, in my adult lifetime.

It must depend on the circles you frequent. I’ve never personally known anyone who was expected, let alone encouraged to have an abortion. I think people are encouraged to make use of family planning and birth control though. The number of unplanned pregnancies in the US never ceases to amaze me.

[Carol in Cal.]

5 minutes ago, Frances said:

It must depend on the circles you frequent. I’ve never personally known anyone who was expected, let alone encouraged to have an abortion. I think people are encouraged to make use of family planning and birth control though. The number of unplanned pregnancies in the US never ceases to amaze me.

I am astounded to hear you say this.

When I was pregnant, in 1996, my third line manager said to me, Of course you will get amniocentesis just in case.  In a work meeting.  And when I told my Ob that I did not want amnio, she asked incredulously, “Do you WANT a defective baby??”  

I know quite a few women who were pressured into abortions by their boyfriends or parents, and one of the arguments was, it’ s legal, so what is your problem with it?  

Also, I have heard people criticize someone for bearing a Downs Syndrome child, and say, well, they don’t deserve school services because this was their choice.  

That kind of thing is so common now that it’s basically a matter of course.

[Frances]

5 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I am astounded to hear you say this.

When I was pregnant, in 1996, my third line manager said to me, Of course you will get amniocentesis just in case.  In a work meeting.  And when I told my Ob that I did not want amnio, she asked incredulously, “Do you WANT a defective baby??”  

I know quite a few women who were pressured into abortions by their boyfriends or parents, and one of the arguments was, it’ s legal, so what is your problem with it?  

Also, I have heard people criticize someone for bearing a Downs Syndrome child, and say, well, they don’t deserve school services because this was their choice.  

That kind of thing is so common now that it’s basically a matter of course.

I guess we must live in very different worlds. I never personally experienced this or know of anyone who I did. Everyone I personally know who had an amniocentesis (I did not), did it for informational purposes only. I don’t know anyone personally who planned to abort a Down Syndrome child. I’m not saying I don’t believe you, it just hasn’t been my personal experience at all. And when I was pregnant with my son we lived in university married family housing with people from all over the world and being pregnant was the norm. In my working life, people struggling with infertility is the norm.

Edited to add that every woman I know personally who had an unplanned pregnancy kept the baby and most married the father. Most eventually got divorced. Again, just my experience.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Frances

[SKL]

As for whether pro-"choice" policy infringes on freedom of religion, there are some areas of conflict that have come up.

• Where an employer does not believe in paying for elective abortions via "health" insurance.
• Where a doctor or medical student / intern / resident is required to perform, assist in, or watch elective abortions against their belief.
• Where taxpayers don't believe in paying for elective abortions via tax-funded "health" coverage.

There are also other situations where pro-abortion policy goes beyond just making early-term abortion choice legal as was covered in RvW.  For example, allowing young teens / tweens to get abortions without their parents' knowledge, allowing late-term abortions and neglect killing of unwanted babies born alive, allowing "counseling" that amounts to pressure to abort and/or misinformation about what is being aborted, using tax revenues to fund providers of abortion, and more.  Some of these policies enable people to do considerable harm e.g. rape / traffic minors and then use abortion to cover it up.  In those cases, the state arguably has a legitimate interest in prioritizing (a) the life of a viable human [this is what RvW ruled], (b) parental guidance, (c) accountability & deterrence for rape, incest, and human trafficking, etc.

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Frances said:

I guess we must live in very different worlds. I never personally experienced this or know of anyone who I did. Everyone I personally know who had an amniocentesis (I did not), did it for informational purposes only. I don’t know anyone personally who planned to abort a Down Syndrome child. I’m not saying I don’t believe you, it just hasn’t been my personal experience at all. And when I was pregnant with my son we lived in university married family housing with people from all over the world and being pregnant was the norm. In my working life, people struggling with infertility is the norm.

Edited to add that every woman I know personally who had an unplanned pregnancy kept the baby and most married the father. Most eventually got divorced. Again, just my experience.

Yeah, I think this must depend heavily on the people you know, because your experience sounds much more usual to me. But I wouldn't be surprised if both experiences are common... the worlds may just not intersect, so we don't know. 

[kbutton]

12 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I am astounded to hear you say this.

When I was pregnant, in 1996, my third line manager said to me, Of course you will get amniocentesis just in case.  In a work meeting.  And when I told my Ob that I did not want amnio, she asked incredulously, “Do you WANT a defective baby??”  

I know quite a few women who were pressured into abortions by their boyfriends or parents, and one of the arguments was, it’ s legal, so what is your problem with it?  

Also, I have heard people criticize someone for bearing a Downs Syndrome child, and say, well, they don’t deserve school services because this was their choice.  

That kind of thing is so common now that it’s basically a matter of course.

I remember hearing this kind of thing for a while and then it kind of died back down again. I wonder if it was a certain age group or when some tests were still kind of new. 

[Carol in Cal.]

5 minutes ago, Frances said:

I guess we must live in very different worlds. I never personally experienced this or know of anyone who I did. Everyone I personally know who had an amniocentesis (I did not), did it for informational purposes only. I don’t know anyone personally who planned to abort a Down Syndrome child. I’m not saying I don’t believe you, it just hasn’t been my personal experience at all. And when I was pregnant with my son we lived in university married family housing with people from all over the world and being pregnant was the norm. In my working life, people struggling with infertility is the norm.

Edited to add that every woman I know personally who had an unplanned pregnancy kept the baby and most married the father. Most eventually got divorced. Again, just my experience.

I’ve never known someone to have an abortion *in the moment* but there is a pretty good sized handful of people I know who told me later on that they had had one.  

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I am astounded to hear you say this.

When I was pregnant, in 1996, my third line manager said to me, Of course you will get amniocentesis just in case.  In a work meeting.  And when I told my Ob that I did not want amnio, she asked incredulously, “Do you WANT a defective baby??”  

I know quite a few women who were pressured into abortions by their boyfriends or parents, and one of the arguments was, it’ s legal, so what is your problem with it?  

Also, I have heard people criticize someone for bearing a Downs Syndrome child, and say, well, they don’t deserve school services because this was their choice.  

That kind of thing is so common now that it’s basically a matter of course.

I know people who were pressured by their close family to have abortions.  I know one mom who was coerced by her husband to abort 4 of her 6 babies.  My grandma told my mom she should abort her 6th baby (she didn't though).  I've heard many people say they would tell their daughter to abort if she got pregnant out of wedlock.

They have done many surveys about why people "choose" to abort, and the most common response is the mother "felt she had no other choice."  So I'm not sure how that is even "choice."

I've already had lots of discussions with my kids about abortion, in case they find themselves pregnant and hear advice from others that could lead to a termination.

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, I think this must depend heavily on the people you know, because your experience sounds much more usual to me. But I wouldn't be surprised if both experiences are common... the worlds may just not intersect, so we don't know. 

I am sure most people don't chat openly about this kind of thing.  Especially if they were pressured or coerced into having an abortion when they felt in their heart that it was wrong.

[Frances]

16 minutes ago, SKL said:

As for whether pro-"choice" policy infringes on freedom of religion, there are some areas of conflict that have come up.

• Where an employer does not believe in paying for elective abortions via "health" insurance.
• Where a doctor or medical student / intern / resident is required to perform, assist in, or watch elective abortions against their belief.
• Where taxpayers don't believe in paying for elective abortions via tax-funded "health" coverage.

There are also other situations where pro-abortion policy goes beyond just making early-term abortion choice legal as was covered in RvW.  For example, allowing young teens / tweens to get abortions without their parents' knowledge, allowing late-term abortions and neglect killing of unwanted babies born alive, allowing "counseling" that amounts to pressure to abort and/or misinformation about what is being aborted, using tax revenues to fund providers of abortion, and more.  Some of these policies enable people to do considerable harm e.g. rape / traffic minors and then use abortion to cover it up.  In those cases, the state arguably has a legitimate interest in prioritizing (a) the life of a viable human [this is what RvW ruled], (b) parental guidance, (c) accountability & deterrence for rape, incest, and human trafficking, etc.

I can possibly understand the first one, as it seems similar to the insurance birth control arguments. As for the second, does that really happen anymore? It’s my understanding that medical schools allow students to opt out of it (doing, assisting, or viewing) during their OBGYN rotation and after that it’s not an issue for the vast majority of doctors because they don’t become OBGYNs. As for the third, I guess that’s no different than the many, many things that lots of people object to their tax dollars being used for because they violate their religious or moral beliefs, e.g. war, children being removed from parents and put in cages, capital punishment, etc. It seems that if that argument could be used for abortion, it could be used for lots of different things.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Frances

[Frances]

7 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I’ve never known someone to have an abortion *in the moment* but there is a pretty good sized handful of people I know who told me later on that they had had one.  

The only ones I know of are where people disclosed it on this board.

[Sneezyone]

Believe it or not, there are also many women who’ve had them and don’t feel any regret about that choice, perhaps being pregnant in the first place but not the decision to terminate.

[Moonhawk]

25 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think societal expectations are a hard thing to control. I have to say, there are lots of societal expectations I resent, but I've never felt like this was one. Whatever people's politics, lots of people are relatively queasy about abortions. And whether they ought to or not (I'm not currently weighing in), there's lots of stigma around them. 

So, re: societal expectations: I know that after my last kid, if I became pregnant again (especially in my current financial situation), I would be under a lot of pressure from certain people in my life to "do the responsible thing." 

I know that regardless of my financial situation, planned pregnancy or not, even if I had a cool $100K sitting in my account right now, 3 immediate people pop into my head that would encourage me to "think about the environment" or "what about the kids you already have and how unfair this is to them." And, there would be just a lot of general disappointment in my being so irresponsible. 

And I'm not in overly liberal circles. I'd have to rekindle some old friendships, though, to feel accepted socially. It would be worse if I was still working. 

This all being said: 

There would be just as much social pressure on me to get fixed or grilling about my birth control or "cool it a little bit" or whatever. After kid #2 everyone thought they had a right to an opinion on my final number of kids. Heck people wanted to chime in on names and criticize waiting to find out if #1 was boy/girl. Basically, this is less a problem from abortion and more a problem from nosiness at best and misogyny at worst.

Abortion being legal didn't start the judgement on my reproductive choices and if it was made illegal it wouldn't stop it, either.

 

[Not_a_Number]

37 minutes ago, SKL said:

I am sure most people don't chat openly about this kind of thing.  Especially if they were pressured or coerced into having an abortion when they felt in their heart that it was wrong.

There are lots of things people don’t chat about openly, but you still basically know. Like, I knew about people’s miscarriages, even though they weren’t mentioned most of the time.

This one isn’t common in my circles. Neither are unplanned pregnancies. Not that they never happen... but yeah, come to think of it, I’ve heard of people getting married after one. 

[Ausmumof3]

I know distantly of two cases where it was used to cover up abuse.  Unfortunately.  I don’t know if anyone personally or close but it’s not accepted in my religious community.  I also know at least one person who chose to carry to term with significant birth defects that led to still birth.

 

[Frances]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

I am sure most people don't chat openly about this kind of thing.  Especially if they were pressured or coerced into having an abortion when they felt in their heart that it was wrong.

Where I grew up (rural, conservative, midwest, predominantly Catholic) at one time it would have been more likely for a woman to be pressured to place a baby for adoption, not to get an abortion. Unplanned pregnancies were not uncommon in my high school, there were usually a few in every class. Almost everyone got married and eventually divorced, usually after another one or two children. I recall one adoption. Even in college the people I knew who got pregnant got married, and I went to a fairly liberal LAC.

Since then I’ve been in primarily highly educated environments where careful family planning is definitely the norm. And infertility is the more common struggle, often related to later marriage and delays in starting a family, but not always. When we lived in married family housing during my husband’s grad school years, there were some married undergrads there who had gotten pregnant and then married. But it was the opposite for the grad students.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I am astounded to hear you say this.

When I was pregnant, in 1996, my third line manager said to me, Of course you will get amniocentesis just in case.  In a work meeting.  And when I told my Ob that I did not want amnio, she asked incredulously, “Do you WANT a defective baby??”  

I know quite a few women who were pressured into abortions by their boyfriends or parents, and one of the arguments was, it’ s legal, so what is your problem with it?  

Also, I have heard people criticize someone for bearing a Downs Syndrome child, and say, well, they don’t deserve school services because this was their choice.  

That kind of thing is so common now that it’s basically a matter of course.

That doesn’t reflect my experience at all, including the amniocentesis one. I did have it explained to me this way by my OBGYN: “Abortion is not the only reason to find out if your child may have certain medical needs. It would also inform your choices about where to have the birth and what kinds of medical support your baby would need at birth.” 

I have known a few people with flippant attitudes towards the idea of abortion, but not typically in people who were planning one or had had one. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, SKL said:

They have done many surveys about why people "choose" to abort, and the most common response is the mother "felt she had no other choice."  So I'm not sure how that is even "choice."

Sure, but “felt they had no choice” means a lot of things besides someone pressuring to abort. How about, “I was working three jobs to stay alive and escape an abusive relationship. I felt I had no choice.” 

[Pam in CT]

re the HOW a "law of the land" would be enacted (as opposed to the WHAT such a law might specify)

15 hours ago, Garga said:

Without debating abortion, when Biden said he’d make abortions the “law of the land”, what does that mean?  A constitutional amendment?  

And then, how is it done?  Is that something he can actually do? Or is that one of the pie-in-the-sky promises that politicians make that are very unlikely to actually come to fruition?

Again, I don’t want this to be about debating abortion, but I don’t know enough about laws to know what that phrase even means or how whatever it means would be done.

The WHAT issue: The content of any legislation regarding abortion would surely be challenged in the courts, and we cannot foresee how that would go even if we know the content. Which we don't.

 

The HOW issue: But as several pp already said, if the US Congress were inclined, it could pass federal legislation along the lines of other developed nations' abortion legislation -- something like (forex), women can choose abortion for any reason up to X weeks; abortion between (x+1) weeks and y weeks is permitted only when a doctor certifies that the mother's life is at stake; abortion beyond y weeks is prohibited.  Such a law (were there the Congressional will to pass it) could well pass Constitutional muster.

There is no "right to life" specified in the Constitution -- capital punishment, self-defense laws, Stand Your Ground laws etc all entail the loss of life, and yet all have withstood Constitutional challenges.

So while: neither Biden nor any other POTUS could do it alone; were Congress willing it could be done without Constitutional amendment.

 

And then it would surely be challenged, and almost certainly make its way up to SCOTUS, where the particular content of such legislation would be scrutinized .  Not, I believe -- IANAL -- against Roe: the (arguably wobbly) legal basis of the Roe decision was in a vacuum where there was no on-point federal legislation.  But against some other legal path we cannot foresee at this point without any insight into the content of the hypothetical legislation. Because again, there is no absolute right to life explicitly enshrined in the original text of the Constitution; SCOTUS would have to "find" a right to life implicit, between the lines, in much the same (arguably wobbly) way as Roe "found" an implicit right to privacy.

(and as an aside, were SCOTUS to "find" such an implicit right to life between the lines of the Constitutional text, that would then open up immediate grounds to challenge capital punishment, as well as other cherished American rights particularly around Stand Your Ground kinds of areas. So while this is deep speculation, I'd be surprised if abortion opponents chose that obvious frontal path, as the judicial path to challenge a hypothetical federal abortion legislation.  I expect some other, less frontal path would be more tactical. But without an actual bill that is speculation about speculation.)

 

If a reconstituted SCOTUS overturned Roe, in the absence of federal legislation, the issue would just revert to state legislation. We can be pretty confident about what that would look like on the ground: some states would continue to have access (my own state has long had its own legislation on the books); others would ban it entirely.  As was the case before Roe.

[SKL]

9 hours ago, Frances said:

Where I grew up (rural, conservative, midwest, predominantly Catholic) at one time it would have been more likely for a woman to be pressured to place a baby for adoption, not to get an abortion. Unplanned pregnancies were not uncommon in my high school, there were usually a few in every class. Almost everyone got married and eventually divorced, usually after another one or two children. I recall one adoption. Even in college the people I knew who got pregnant got married, and I went to a fairly liberal LAC.

I think it is very possible if not likely that people who had abortions would not have told you they were ever pregnant, for some of the same reasons they had the abortion in the first place.  In a nutshell, shame and fear [over the pregnancy, the abortion, or both].

This is why I am careful about how I talk about abortion IRL.  I don't believe in it, but I am aware that the person I'm speaking to may have had one (or more) secretly.  My goal is not to hurt people who are already in a sad situation.

[SKL]

26 minutes ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

I was so strongly encouraged to abort with my last pregnancy that I had a very hard time finding an OB.  Granted, it was super high risk but I really felt shamed by some of the specialists I saw. I had been on BCP when I got pregnant and had been told that I was unable to conceive anyway, so I wasn’t being irresponsible. And then I was not willing to just prophylactically terminate until it was absolutely necessary. We did have to end the pregnancy at 28 weeks, but the baby was viable by then.

It was actually very hard. One high risk big city specialist actually called me stupid.

I suspect more women terminate because they feel they have no choice or are pressured into it than most of us know, simply because it’s not discussed.  

I'm so sorry that happened to you.

I agree with your last sentence.

[Sneezyone]

39 minutes ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

I was so strongly encouraged to abort with my last pregnancy that I had a very hard time finding an OB.  Granted, it was super high risk but I really felt shamed by some of the specialists I saw. I had been on BCP when I got pregnant and had been told that I was unable to conceive anyway, so I wasn’t being irresponsible. And then I was not willing to just prophylactically terminate until it was absolutely necessary. We did have to end the pregnancy at 28 weeks, but the baby was viable by then.

It was actually very hard. One high risk big city specialist actually called me stupid.

I suspect more women terminate because they feel they have no choice or are pressured into it than most of us know, simply because it’s not discussed.  

The reverse is also true. It’s socially unacceptable to say that you don’t regret not having kids with the first person you ever slept with.

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, kand said:

I feel like I must be parsing this statement wrong because I’ve read it over and over and maybe I’m getting tripped up in the double negatives, but I’m reading it as saying it’s not acceptable for someone to be glad they didn’t have kids with the first person they slept with? It seems to me most people would find that a very acceptable and understandable thing for someone to express, so I’m confused. 

Yeah, I’m lost. I think it’s a triple negative!!

[Sneezyone]

18 minutes ago, kand said:

I feel like I must be parsing this statement wrong because I’ve read it over and over and maybe I’m getting tripped up in the double negatives, but I’m reading it as saying it’s not acceptable for someone to be glad they didn’t have kids with the first person they slept with? It seems to me most people would find that a very acceptable and understandable thing for someone to express, so I’m confused. 

It’s not something people discuss in polite company, having an abortion to avoid co-parenting with someone they don’t wish to have a lifelong relationship with. Sometimes there’s abuse, sometimes not. Women and girls aren’t supposed to be sexual beings and ALSO not want kids with that specific person or with anyone. Try getting your tubes tied in your 20s, or obtaining an IUD before giving birth. People push back on those choices too. I know military spouses who’ve had trouble with both. For me, none of it is up for public debate or censure.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Sneezyone

[frogger]

14 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think societal expectations are a hard thing to control. I have to say, there are lots of societal expectations I resent, but I've never felt like this was one. Whatever people's politics, lots of people are relatively queasy about abortions. And whether they ought to or not (I'm not currently weighing in), there's lots of stigma around them. 

My mother had a LOT of pressure to abort me. 

[Joker]

The only abortion I know of out of everyone I’ve ever come into contact with is actually my great grandmother. She couldn’t handle any more kids but my POS great grandfather insisted. So, she tried to abort the baby herself since it wasn’t legal or easy and both her and the baby died (don’t really get what’s so pro life about that option and it will happen again if abortion is illegal). My grandmother’s life was hell until she could marry out from under her fathers thumb and thankfully the blame has always been on him and not her poor mother.

I hope we finally do make abortion safe and legal via legislation so hopefully there will be no future threat of making it illegal. I can’t imagine a single scenario that I myself would ever choose to have one but I don’t think anyone but mom and doctors should be making that call for others.

[Drama Llama]

39 minutes ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

I’m not sure either?

I think it’s very socially acceptable to be thankful you didn’t have a pregnancy with someone you weren’t in a long term relationship with.

I think the point is that it's less socially acceptable to be thankful you didn't CONTINUE a pregnancy with someone you weren't in a long term relationship with.  

[Not_a_Number]

12 minutes ago, Joker said:

The only abortion I know of out of everyone I’ve ever come into contact with is actually my great grandmother. She couldn’t handle any more kids but my POS great grandfather insisted. So, she tried to abort the baby herself since it wasn’t legal or easy and both her and the baby died (don’t really get what’s so pro life about that option and it will happen again if abortion is illegal). My grandmother’s life was hell until she could marry out from under her fathers thumb and thankfully the blame has always been on him and not her poor mother.

I hope we finally do make abortion safe and legal via legislation so hopefully there will be no future threat of making it illegal. I can’t imagine a single scenario that I myself would ever choose to have one but I don’t think anyone but mom and doctors should be making that call for others.

Well, that's a terrible story, and probably a more common one that we know 😕 . 

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I think the point is that it's less socially acceptable to be thankful you didn't CONTINUE a pregnancy with someone you weren't in a long term relationship with.  

No, not just short term relationships. You can be in a long-term relationship and still not want to co-parent with that individual, nor serve as a handmaid, subject to future contact, for others. There are innumerable reasons why people choose not to give birth and/or parent after becoming pregnant. 
 

ETA: I think it makes people feel better to think everyone shares their love of babies, children, parenthood or welcomes the prospect however it happens. They don’t and they won’t, SCOTUS and legislation aside.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Sneezyone

[hippiemamato3]

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

The reverse is also true. It’s socially unacceptable to say that you don’t regret not having kids with the first person you ever slept with.

What the heck? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Joker said:

The only abortion I know of out of everyone I’ve ever come into contact with is actually my great grandmother. She couldn’t handle any more kids but my POS great grandfather insisted. So, she tried to abort the baby herself since it wasn’t legal or easy and both her and the baby died (don’t really get what’s so pro life about that option and it will happen again if abortion is illegal). My grandmother’s life was hell until she could marry out from under her fathers thumb and thankfully the blame has always been on him and not her poor mother.

I hope we finally do make abortion safe and legal via legislation so hopefully there will be no future threat of making it illegal. I can’t imagine a single scenario that I myself would ever choose to have one but I don’t think anyone but mom and doctors should be making that call for others.

How did you come to know this story? (I’m not doubting it; I’m just curious from a family historian perspective.) 

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

What the heck? 

Yes, it is socially unacceptable to say that you don’t regret having an abortion so as to not have kids with someone. Women (and men) are *supposed* to feel guilt and shame behind that choice.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Sneezyone

[hippiemamato3]

10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Yes, it is socially unacceptable to say that you don’t regret having an abortion so as to not have kids with someone. Women (and men) are *supposed* to feel guilt and shame behind that choice.

Oh. I'm not sure it is. But I can see how you'd see that in some circles. 

[Joker]

21 minutes ago, Quill said:

How did you come to know this story? (I’m not doubting it; I’m just curious from a family historian perspective.) 

It was known within the family and my grandmother told my mom, and my mom told me. 
 

ETA: It was always obvious that my grandmother and her siblings despised their dad but I never really understood why until my mom told me the story.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Joker

[MercyA]

15 hours ago, Frances said:

I guess we must live in very different worlds. I never personally experienced this or know of anyone who I did. Everyone I personally know who had an amniocentesis (I did not), did it for informational purposes only. I don’t know anyone personally who planned to abort a Down Syndrome child. I’m not saying I don’t believe you, it just hasn’t been my personal experience at all. And when I was pregnant with my son we lived in university married family housing with people from all over the world and being pregnant was the norm. In my working life, people struggling with infertility is the norm.

Edited to add that every woman I know personally who had an unplanned pregnancy kept the baby and most married the father. Most eventually got divorced. Again, just my experience.

67% of human beings prenatally diagnosed with Down Syndrome are aborted in the United States. In France, it's 77%; in Denmark, 98%, in Iceland, nearly 100%. (Healthline) So, yes, unfortunately being disabled is often a death sentence.

My mother would have been pressured to abort my brother had she not married my father. They are still married (50 years, yay!).

An aunt had two abortions. Out of my pro-life activist friends, three that I know of were involved with abortions--two had abortions themselves and one paid for an abortion. One of them tried to commit suicide due to guilt and grief. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by MercyA

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, frogger said:

My mother had a LOT of pressure to abort me. 

Glad you're here. 🙂 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Joker said:

It was known within the family and my grandmother told my mom, and my mom told me. 

I’m very sorry this sad thing happened in your family. 

[MercyA]

 

1 hour ago, Joker said:

The only abortion I know of out of everyone I’ve ever come into contact with is actually my great grandmother. She couldn’t handle any more kids but my POS great grandfather insisted. So, she tried to abort the baby herself since it wasn’t legal or easy and both her and the baby died (don’t really get what’s so pro life about that option and it will happen again if abortion is illegal). My grandmother’s life was hell until she could marry out from under her fathers thumb and thankfully the blame has always been on him and not her poor mother.

I hope we finally do make abortion safe and legal via legislation so hopefully there will be no future threat of making it illegal. I can’t imagine a single scenario that I myself would ever choose to have one but I don’t think anyone but mom and doctors should be making that call for others.

I am sorry for your family's loss, but in legal abortions, one human being always dies. I hope we do not forget that.

I believe that one's right to life should not depend on their age, their environment, or their degree of dependence. I believe the rights of unborn children should be protected, under the law, just as the lives of other human beings are protected, regardless of whether or not people would choose to break that law. We do not say, for example, that someone may be injured in the commission of a theft, so therefore theft should not be illegal. 

I am doing my best to tread carefully here, as per Garga's wishes, but think it's reasonable for both sides of the issue to weigh in.

Edited October 12, 2020 by MercyA

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

Oh. I'm not sure it is. But I can see how you'd see that in some circles. 

Huh. Thus explains the many people who know someone who did it because they had no other choice or were forced to and feel bad but no one knows anyone who actually felt relief and were happy to move forward.

Several of my family members had abortions in the ol’ days facilitated by a family nurse. Back then, black babies weren’t collectors items. Each one went on to college, marry and have a two or more children who also went on to college. No regrets. I asked.

On the other side of my family pressure existed to parent, which they did, usually as single mothers. They struggled financially. The wise ones stopped at one child unless/until they stabilized their lives and could provide for them. The less wise had many. There’s lots of long-term incarceration on that side and paycheck to paycheck poverty.

I don’t think activist anecdotes on any side of this issue provide an accurate sense of these choices/decisions. Most people don’t share them

5 minutes ago, MercyA said:

 

I am sorry for your family's loss, but in legal abortions, one human being always dies. I hope we do not forget that.

I believe that one's right to life should not depend on their age, their environment, or their degree of dependence. I believe the rights of unborn children should be protected, under the law, just as the lives of other human beings are protected, regardless of whether or not people would choose to break that law. We do not say, for example, that someone may be injured in the commission of a theft, so therefore theft should not be illegal. 

I am doing my best to tread carefully here, as per Garga's wishes, but think it's reasonable for both sides of the issue to weigh in.

Everyone doesn’t hold the view that human life begins at egg fertilization and neither does science. A grocery store egg with a red spot/clot in it isn’t a chicken.

[MercyA]

12 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Everyone doesn’t hold the view that human life begins at egg fertilization and neither does science. A grocery store egg with a red spot/clot in it isn’t a chicken.

Many scientists do in fact hold this view; you can find it in many secular embryology textbooks, just as one example. [Scroll down; yes, this is a pro-life site; others have posted from pro-choice sites.] 

"Chicken" is the name for one stage of that species' life; that "clot," given proper care, would have also likely reached that stage. We have names for different stages of human life as well: zygote, embryo, fetus, newborn, toddler, child, adolescent, adult, senior. All human; none less worthy of protection due to their age or dependence.

New human being(s) are genetically distinct from their mother and given time and nutrition--the same things all humans need--will continue to grow and develop until natural death. 

It is worth noting that by the time most women know they are pregnant, their offspring's heart is already beating. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by MercyA

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Many scientists do in fact hold this view; you can find it in many secular embryology textbooks, just as one example. [Scroll down; yes, this is a pro-life site; others have posted from pro-choice sites.] 

The new human being(s) are genetically distinct from their mother and given time and nutrition--the same things all humans need--will continue to grow and develop until natural death. 

It is worth noting that by the time most women know they are pregnant, their offspring's heart is already beating. 

It’s totally a definitional issue, meaning there’s no point arguing about it. Either you think human life begins at conception or you do not. Certainly at the beginning of pregnancy, the zygote/embryo is not an independent and sentient entity, so you have to either decide that it IS human because it has the capacity to become one, or that it is NOT one for the aforementioned reasons.

Personally, I understand both points of view. I do feel that abortion is more acceptable earlier on, because the capacity of a multicellular organism to become human doesn’t quite sway me enough.

But ultimately, it’s not that science is on anyone’s side. It just depends what you mean by “human.”

[MercyA]

19 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I don’t think activist anecdotes on any side of this issue provide an accurate sense of these choices/decisions. Most people don’t share them

Fair enough; I was responding to Frances' comment that she didn't know anyone outside of this board who had aborted a child.

Edited October 12, 2020 by MercyA

[MercyA]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Certainly at the beginning of pregnancy, the zygote/embryo is not an independent and sentient entity, so you have to either decide that it IS human because it has the capacity to become one, or that it is NOT one for the aforementioned reasons.

But should one's right to live depend on whether he or she is dependent on others? Newborns, the elderly, and the disabled are dependent as well.

And should one's right to live depend on sentience? Is it more moral to kill someone in their sleep, unaware? And in any case, even in the first trimester we see measurable brain waves and behaviors like thumb-sucking.

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, MercyA said:

But should one's right to live depend on whether he or she is dependent on others? Newborns, the elderly, and the disabled are dependent as well.

And should one's right to live depend on sentience? Is it more moral to kill someone in their sleep, unaware? And in any case, even in the first trimester we see measurable brain waves and behaviors like thumb-sucking.

Well, someone who is asleep is definitely a sentient being. And the dependence on a mother is a more intimate and draining one than the dependence on a caregiver. The mother cannot transfer the embryo to someone else 😉 .

Now, should those matter? I think that’s a question one answers for oneself. I’m never that interested in telling people what their values should be.

[Sneezyone]

28 minutes ago, MercyA said:

But should one's right to live depend on whether he or she is dependent on others? Newborns, the elderly, and the disabled are dependent as well.

And should one's right to live depend on sentience? Is it more moral to kill someone in their sleep, unaware? And in any case, even in the first trimester we see measurable brain waves and behaviors like thumb-sucking.

That’s a slippery slope argument that different faith traditions and ethicists have different conclusions about. I’m not in a position to say, nor do I wish to say, how individuals should define that for themselves. I, for example, do not wish to live my life 100% dependent upon others and my end of life documents reflect that. I don’t want you, however lovely a person you may be, making that call for me. 
 

Equally important, to me, is the fact that maternal mortality does not affect us all equally. Pregnancy is not a benign condition however natural it may be.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Sneezyone

[MercyA]

22 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, someone who is asleep is definitely a sentient being. And the dependence on a mother is a more intimate and draining one than the dependence on a caregiver. The mother cannot transfer the embryo to someone else 😉 .

Now, should those matter? I think that’s a question one answers for oneself. I’m never that interested in telling people what their values should be.

But again, should someone's right to live be dependent on whether other people find them draining or intimately difficult or personally unavoidable?

I am interested in people's values when those values result in the loss of human life, either through war or police brutality or preventable illness or, yes, abortion. 

I appreciate the conversation. 🙂 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, MercyA said:

But again, should someone's right to live be dependent on whether other people find them draining or intimately difficult or personally unavoidable?

But it's not merely intimately difficult. It's more than that. It's more along the lines of "should you be forced to donate an organ if a relative will die if you don't?" Because the costs to you, after all, are lower than to the other person. But it's still a more serious imposition than just taking care of someone. 

If we could remove a fetus from a woman and incubate it until it was full term, I would probably have a different take on whether abortion is OK or not. 

[Not_a_Number]

15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Equally important, to me, is the fact that maternal mortality does not affect us all equally either. Pregnancy is not a benign condition however natural it may be.

Right. At the end of the day, the drain on the mother's resources is the reason I'm personally OK with abortion in the early stages of the pregnancy.

Now, personally -- and I do NOT dictate my values to other people here -- I do have significant discomfort with abortions later on. I don't think making an effort to regulate this away does what one wants it to, though. At the end of the day, no one even KNOWS a woman is pregnant as early as she does. (I was almost certain I was pregnant with DD4 before I missed my period.) So mandating what she does with something inside her body is likely to backfire badly. So if you make this illegal, back alley abortions will happen, because you can't stop people with an invisible condition from seeking them out. 

If one does care about reducing abortions, and at the end of the day, I do, there are other things you can do. Education, birth control, etc. 

But agin, this stance is certainly informed by the value of not considering an embryo fully human. I can understand why someone who believes than embryo IS fully human would come to a different conclusion. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

But again, should someone's right to live be dependent on whether other people find them draining or intimately difficult or personally unavoidable?

I am interested in people's values when those values result in the loss of human life, either through war or police brutality or preventable illness or, yes, abortion. 

I appreciate the conversation. 🙂 

Your question also presumes personhood at fertilization. That is not a given.