Beast Academy as a full curriculum

[BlueApple]

I'm trying to decide between Singapore Math (Primary Edition) and Beast Academy for my 2nd and 5th grader. My biggest concern with BA is the amount of practice it entails. Is it enough? Do kids retain it well? Can it serve as a full curriculum without additional supplementary material? 

[BlueApple]

3 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I think it depends on the kid 😉 . You could use it as a spine and add practice as needed.

Ahh. So not a lot of practice? 

[Miss Tick]

It was fine for my two average users. We moved into AOPS pre-algebra after, but then oldest switched to Derek Owens.

[EmseB]

What I find is that the "practice" is different than with other math curricula. It doesn't look like repetition or spiraling back over things directly, but concepts learned are integrated into overall problem solving and thinking, probably more subtly than people are used to.

It took me awhile to realize BA/AOPS is just an almost completely different way of thinking about review/practice and approaching math problems in general. So that when a kid sees a problem, even if they don't have a direct algorithm to reference to apply (although those are taught!), they have a way to think about the math and approach the problem.

Make sure if you use BA that you and your child are using the hints and solutions as part of the reading and work every day.

[purpleowl]

Just now, EmseB said:

What I find is that the "practice" is different than with other math curricula. It doesn't look like repetition or spiraling back over things directly, but concepts learned are integrated into overall problem solving and thinking, probably more subtly than people are used to.

Yep. And I also agree that it depends on the kid. 

It was exactly what was needed for my oldest to develop automaticity with math facts. Drills were not working for her. Engaging problems that required her to use those facts - that was what worked. 

My middle child also thrived on just BA. My youngest is currently doing a combination of BA and Math Mammoth.

[BlueApple]

1 hour ago, SusanC said:

It was fine for my two average users. We moved into AOPS pre-algebra after, but then oldest switched to Derek Owens.

This is good to hear. I'm starting to think BA isn't just for the truly "gifted" or "exceptional" as everyone keeps saying. It just seems to be a better way of doing math.

[BlueApple]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

I think it depends on the kid, honestly. It’s enough if your kid doesn’t mind learning concepts at the same time as they use them in puzzles!!

That actually sounds like a lot of fun!

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

What I find is that the "practice" is different than with other math curricula. It doesn't look like repetition or spiraling back over things directly, but concepts learned are integrated into overall problem solving and thinking, probably more subtly than people are used to.

It took me awhile to realize BA/AOPS is just an almost completely different way of thinking about review/practice and approaching math problems in general. So that when a kid sees a problem, even if they don't have a direct algorithm to reference to apply (although those are taught!), they have a way to think about the math and approach the problem.

Make sure if you use BA that you and your child are using the hints and solutions as part of the reading and work every day.

Yeah, I think that's my issue here. I'm trying to compare it to traditional school math curricula. Those involve a lot of drilling, so it's hard for me to wrap my mind around something different.  Thanks for the tip about utilizing the hint and solutions. 

[BlueApple]

41 minutes ago, purpleowl said:

Yep. And I also agree that it depends on the kid. 

It was exactly what was needed for my oldest to develop automaticity with math facts. Drills were not working for her. Engaging problems that required her to use those facts - that was what worked. 

My middle child also thrived on just BA. My youngest is currently doing a combination of BA and Math Mammoth.

I really like Math Mammoth for the drills. I guess what I'm looking for is the BA's innovative approach to teaching concepts, and Math Mammoth's drilling. Maybe I should do both 😛

[EmseB]

7 minutes ago, BlueApple said:

That actually sounds like a lot of fun!

Yeah, I think that's my issue here. I'm trying to compare it to traditional school math curricula. Those involve a lot of drilling, so it's hard for me to wrap my mind around something different.  Thanks for the tip about utilizing the hint and solutions. 

Drills, IME, can be a 5-10 minute exercise as a warm up to doing BA as the main curriculum if needed.

What I personally have done is very traditional math programs in K-2 and then started BA mid-2nd grade or 3rd grade. I find having good readers with quick, basic fact recall has been helpful for doing BA.

[EmilyGF]

3 hours ago, BlueApple said:

I'm trying to decide between Singapore Math (Primary Edition) and Beast Academy for my 2nd and 5th grader. My biggest concern with BA is the amount of practice it entails. Is it enough? Do kids retain it well? Can it serve as a full curriculum without additional supplementary material? 

There's also the issue, IMO, that the teacher helps are very different for Singapore Math vs Beast Academy. How confident do you feel about teaching math? I think a lot of parents (even mathy ones) don't have a lot of the bigger picture of what is being done and why.

I'm adding this because curricula has to fit the kid and the teacher; I loved the idea of Singapore but just could NOT click with the teacher manual.

Emily

[Janeway]

My daughter hated BA until she was ahead of the concepts. So basically, the practices are puzzles. Puzzles for practicing concepts is easier if you already get the concepts when applied in a normal way.  I love Singapore Math and I do not use the teachers manual. I use the real Singapore Math and not one of the rewritten by American Publishers Standards or Math In Focus.  We are doing BA now, but BA 2A along side SM 3A.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Janeway

[Sarah0000]

It's a complete math program but it doesn't cover some traditional "problem styles" that a kid might see on public schoolish state or diagnostic testing. If that matters to you for whatever reason (it matters to me) you may need to add something along those lines just for familiarity, but that could be a mini unit when the need arises.

[Btervet]

We used BA 3-5 after using RightStart and Miquon with a fairly advanced math loving kid, for context.

We LOVED BA 3-4. It was the perfect amount of practice with difficult puzzles. Lvl 5 was a completely different story. In order to process quickly in lvl 5, a kid needs to be able to quickly multiply multidigit numbers and easily and quickly divide multidigit numbers. IMO BA failed at teaching how to do this quickly and painlessly. It taught the concepts well, but at some point a kid will want to move on from concepts to quick use of algorithms and this is where we struggled with BA. It reflected what I think is the weakness of BA, the idea it has that teaching a concept once is enough for mastery in use. 

At that point we switched to MM 6 and it was the perfect complement and relief from BA 5. After that we moved into AOPS Prealgebra and have been going quickly through that with no problems. After reflecting on BA compared to other programs we used, I think it is the best for challenging problems and critical thinking in math, but does no do a good job of teaching the basics of math. Oddly, I have not seen this problem in AOPS at all. 

[kirstenhill]

4 hours ago, Btervet said:

We used BA 3-5 after using RightStart and Miquon with a fairly advanced math loving kid, for context.

We LOVED BA 3-4. It was the perfect amount of practice with difficult puzzles. Lvl 5 was a completely different story. In order to process quickly in lvl 5, a kid needs to be able to quickly multiply multidigit numbers and easily and quickly divide multidigit numbers. IMO BA failed at teaching how to do this quickly and painlessly. It taught the concepts well, but at some point a kid will want to move on from concepts to quick use of algorithms and this is where we struggled with BA. It reflected what I think is the weakness of BA, the idea it has that teaching a concept once is enough for mastery in use. 

At that point we switched to MM 6 and it was the perfect complement and relief from BA 5. After that we moved into AOPS Prealgebra and have been going quickly through that with no problems. After reflecting on BA compared to other programs we used, I think it is the best for challenging problems and critical thinking in math, but does no do a good job of teaching the basics of math. Oddly, I have not seen this problem in AOPS at all. 

Yes, I feel like the one thing BA never taught were those standard algorithms for multi digit multiplication and division.  I had to teach those separately.  My 2 older boys did a bit of practice on facts with Xtra math in early elementary, and then BA was enough practice after that for most things, but mostly because they seem really good at remembering concepts.  My youngest seems to forget things a little more easily, so I am wondering if he will need to do some review outside of BA.   As long as we're airing all our BA grievances, let me say that I hate the placement of that perfect squares chapter when they've just barely learned multiplication.   My first DS went through it needing a bit more help than on other chapters, but promptly forgot all the "tricks" he learned in that chapter (rare for him, generally - he usually retains really well).  My next DS was just not ready for that chapter having just learned multiplication, so I wanted until between 3D and 4A and he was so much more ready for it.  Did the same thing with DS#3 and that was perfect for him also. 

[Cake and Pi]

BA is a complete curriculum and mostly has enough practice for a not-too-typical certain kind of kid... but almost every kid will need more practice than BA has built in at some point or another, some kids more or less than others. I think BA works best when each chapter is used to mastery and supplemented as necessary. 

I have some pretty mathy kids, and every one of them used some other program either before or in tandem with BA (Right Start, MEP, Algebra Lab Gear, etc.). Even my radically accelerated DS 8 (the kid who did BA 4 and 5 each in 10-11 weeks and completed AoPS Prealgebra at 6yo) needed more practice with the basic operations than was offered in BA. We drilled multiplication and division facts well beyond what was in BA and did one long division or big multiplication per day as a warm-up all the way into the beginnings of Prealgebra.

And I'll add my grievances to the pot, too. I was deeply disappointed with the way BA covered the multiplication facts. Here's my summary of BA 3B Ch.4: You can skip count to fill in a multiplication table. Look, the multiplication table is redundant and you already know some of it. Great, now MEMORIZE the rest of it! Here are 30 practice pages. I was relieved that my kids had already developed a deep conceptual understanding of multiplication before any of them began BA 3.

Not to bash on BA. We really loved it. It significantly contributed to my kids' problem solving abilities. But, honestly, we didn't use it as a stand-alone.

[daijobu]

I'll join @Janeway in praising Singapore Math.  We used the US edition, and this was before any BA books had been published.  I combined SM with a weekly MOEMS lesson for problem solving practice, and after Level 5, we transitioned seamlessly to AoPS PreAlgebra.  Knowing what I know now and having used BA with several other students I would probably do it again.  

[Sk8ermaiden]

I'll also sing the praises of Singapore. We did BA as a supplement for a while and IMO it in no way provided enough review or practice for concepts to stick and become second nature, and failed to teach the algorithms after the concepts were understood. I also have a kid who would like to have the tools to solve a problem before being asked to solve that problem, so using BA on grade level was an exercise in frustration. The comics were awesome though. There are some children it obviously works great for, but I think it's going to be a very particular type of kid.

She's very mathy, takes quickly to concepts and really understands them, and loves math. BA was a recipe for my particular kid start hating math and thinking she was bad at it.

My friend uses the online version though and says it is a more complete program. 

[SilverMoon]

My youngest has been using Beast as his primary math for over a year now. Before Beast he used a combo of Singapore and Horizons. I was cautious about Beast being "enough" but I don't have any real complaints at this point. He does go back and reread the guidebooks occasionally, on his own accord. The online format is handy for that; he can pull up any of the guides and reread to his heart's desire. He isn't running another curricula alongside Beast like he did with everything else for elementary, but we do add math enrichment that we'd add to ANY curricula. Right now he's going through the intro Hands on Equations set. Occasionally he'll use the Hands on Equations and DragonBox alg apps for extra practice, and he plays on Prodigy fairly regularly (in his free game time). My shelf has Zaccaro books, Math Olympiad practice books, and the word problems level of Hands on Equations ready to go as wanted. 

Once in awhile he gets properly stuck in Beast. Sometimes he just repeats the whole chapter (multiple times if needed). Randomly he gets in his head and beats himself up about it. When that happened we grabbed the Singapore book instead for awhile. He just recently did this again after a long spell of smooth sailing. I handed him some SM and Horizons placement tests to see where he would even be.... and he resolved his Beast hangup on his own before he finished the placement tests. 

Fwiw, kids that need more practice could do the online format and use the workbooks too. The problem sets are different.

[BlueApple]

Oh wow, thank you so much everyone! I didn't expect such thorough and extensive feedback. After taking everything mentioned here in to account, we've decided BA probably won't be the right fit for us. We're going to go with Singapore Math, hopefully it works for us. Thanks again 🙂

Edited September 19, 2020 by BlueApple

[Roadrunner]

On 9/10/2020 at 3:25 PM, square_25 said:

I actually think they absolutely have the same issue in AoPS -- I keep seeing the classes act like seeing an idea once or twice is enough. It's really not. If you want a kid to be able to simplify square roots, for example, you should probably reiterate the "you should square it and see what happens!" lesson over and over again. You can't just assume that a kid can simplify them as soon as they see the "tricks," unless you want the kids to simply memorize it. 

We found this to be especially problematic in Calculus. Wasn’t enough at all.

 

 

[Clemsondana]

Thanks for this discussion!  Y'all are writing about some of the concerns I've had with AoPS.  My husband and I were just talking about some of this recently.  Husband is a tech guy who earned a minor in math in college.  I was expressing concern that AoPS spent so much time giving problems with interesting rearrangments that you needed to just 'see' that I worry that students could miss the simple things and sort of lose the thread of what they were learning.  I recently found that kid was brute-force working through problems because he had gotten used to there being so many (not always easy to see) steps prior to being able to factor or complete the square that, when he was busy, he didn't feel that it was worth the time to try to puzzle out the pretty solution (which ultimately might have been faster...or not)...which is sort of the opposite of what they're going for.

We've somewhat addressed this by slowing down so that there is much less rushing, only doing a selection of challenge problems so that kid takes time to actually think, and doing LOF in parallel (usually once/week) - it also has little practice, but by presenting the topics in a different order at least kiddo is seeing the concepts more than once.  I was debating switching programs - kid is good at math and likes it OK, but I'm sometimes not sure that we're seeing the benefit of the approach.  Husband, though, sees value in continuing to do problems that help you learn to see more complicated solutions because he says that he wasn't good at that - fortunately his field of engineering doesn't require that type of math manipulation, but kid could easily choose a branch that does.  

I'm amused because we've wound up using 2 programs that are complete opposites - Life of Fred describes itself as being no more complicated than necessary, and AoPS is all about throwing in all of the complication that they can to show the clever solutions.  🙂  

 

[Roadrunner]

4 hours ago, square_25 said:

My online class was full of kids who’d taken calculus in school. The kids I had coming straight from AoPS precalc couldn’t actually keep up.

DD8 has been asking to take an online class since I teach them, and I’m pretty sure the only way I’ll sign her up for one is if she’s already seen all the material. 

That’s the mistake we made. I wish we had taken it after the more standard calculus course. 
 

I think traditionally we work the textbook first and then take the class to make AoPS work. So my DS (second one) is taking Intermediate Algebra class but he has worked through 3/4 of the book already.

 

I also felt BA was an excellent supplement, but I am so glad we used SM primarily.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Roadrunner

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Roadrunner
Sorry DP

[Clemsondana]

When I noticed some of the weirdness, I wondered how much was kid being young (and me not always being able to focus enough to figure out why he missed a question because i was dealing with some other things).  I decided to slow us down by doing some non-essential things like Number Theory and the first Counting and Probability book, and kid enjoyed both.  I don't know if its the nature of the content, the different authors, or kid's brain, but we didn't run into any problems with them, and geometry actually went pretty smoothly.  We don't do the online classes because I want more control over our schedule, especially with something like math where I'm unwilling to move on until everything is understood.  I'm not doing AoPS with younger for a variety of reasons, but I'm still ambivalent on whether it was the best choice for older.  It's a hard thing - I know that older would have found the standard books that I used in school to be trivially easy and kid sees math in a way that I don't.  But, when the problems only work easily when you see them a particular way, sometimes kid will do something that is right but makes a problem super hard.  I know that learning which approach to take is part of what you're learning, but I think kid sometimes gets frustrated with problems that are structured to work imply if you 'see'  a particular order of substitutions or manipulations but are very complicated otherwise.  It almost feels like, in teaching them to be creative in problem solving, he's learning to be less creative?  I don't know - when looking at something outside your field it can be hard to see what teaching objectives you're not seeing (like the way that I sometimes ask questions that require students to put bits of information together and they're frustrated that I didnt explicitly teach them the answer - learning to synthesize is also part of what I want them to learn).  

[Sarah0000]

On 9/10/2020 at 12:47 PM, BlueApple said:

I really like Math Mammoth for the drills. I guess what I'm looking for is the BA's innovative approach to teaching concepts, and Math Mammoth's drilling. Maybe I should do both 😛

My third grader has been doing BA Online plus MM Blue worktexts for drilling certain things like long multiplication and long division. The MM is just one sheet a day that he does as a warm up (this is rotated with other quick warm up type worksheets like Evan More dailies). It works great and is not too much at all.

ETA: I just saw your most recent post that you're going with Singapore. SM is a great program too and you could still add a page of MM targeted practice if you want.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Sarah0000

[daijobu]

On 9/19/2020 at 4:30 AM, square_25 said:

 

We used AoPS extensively, but for the core courses, we used the textbooks at home.  The only time we used the online AoPS classes was their more fun and low-homework test prep classes (MathCounts, AMC and AIME).  The online courses are too fast paced for us and I didn't want my kids rushing through important material.  

Edited September 24, 2020 by daijobu

[daijobu]

On 9/10/2020 at 3:25 PM, square_25 said:

 

Maybe it's because we use the textbooks and not the online courses, plus we added in old MathCounts and AMCs extensively, but we found there was plenty of practice for my kids.  But that's , while your sample size is much much larger.  

Edited September 24, 2020 by daijobu

[Noreen Claire]

26 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Well, someone just sent an e-mail to AoPS HQs about the fact that I post on here, so I'm deleting all of my posts. 

That's just wrong. I appreciate your insights!

[Lecka]

Some kids need more practice than what is in Singapore Math, too.  
 

It’s so individual how much practice kids need.  

[El...]

11 hours ago, Noreen Claire said:

That's just wrong. I appreciate your insights!

I also enjoy your thoughts. That sucks.

[Not_a_Number]

If people wouldn’t mind deleting quotes from square_25, I’d appreciate it.

[daijobu]

Wait, what?  Is square_25 still on WTM?  I deleted her posts that I copied; and now she isn't coming up when I type @square_25.  What a loss.  

[Lecka]

Maybe not_a_number.....  is someone.....  formerly known as.....

[Not_a_Number]

15 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Maybe not_a_number.....  is someone.....  formerly known as.....

Shhhhhh. It's a secret 😛 

(Actually, I PM'ed her. But I'd rather not have this public.) 

[Shoeless]

On 9/24/2020 at 1:22 PM, Not_a_number said:

Shhhhhh. It's a secret 😛 

 

You might want to adjust your signature.  It makes you really identifiable, IMO. 

[Not_a_Number]

4 hours ago, MissLemon said:

You might want to adjust your signature.  It makes you really identifiable, IMO. 

Yeah, I don’t really mind 🙂 . I just don’t want it to be easy to Google.

ETA: on the other hand... I see your point. Maybe I'll edit. Lots of people know who I am, anyway. 

[Jan Han]

On 9/10/2020 at 5:45 PM, Janeway said:

My daughter hated BA until she was ahead of the concepts. So basically, the practices are puzzles. Puzzles for practicing concepts is easier if you already get the concepts when applied in a normal way.  I love Singapore Math and I do not use the teachers manual. I use the real Singapore Math and not one of the rewritten by American Publishers Standards or Math In Focus.  We are doing BA now, but BA 2A along side SM 3A.

Can you tell me more about your experience? My daughter is finishing Primary Mathematics 2B. How do you complement the two curriculums. She is doing very well with Singapore Math, but BA looks so cool. I just don't want it to be too much. 

[Jan Han]

On 9/11/2020 at 2:19 AM, daijobu said:

I'll join @Janeway in praising Singapore Math.  We used the US edition, and this was before any BA books had been published.  I combined SM with a weekly MOEMS lesson for problem solving practice, and after Level 5, we transitioned seamlessly to AoPS PreAlgebra.  Knowing what I know now and having used BA with several other students I would probably do it again.  

Can you tell me more about your transition from SM to AoPS? We are using the "Primary Mathematics". Did you switch to AoPS after 5B? Would you recommend BA as side practice/ fun problems?

She is doing very well with SM, doing about 3 books per year (1 level and a half). She seems to be retaining all the information. Should I slow her down and add some BA to go deeper? Or just keep going until we finish 5B and switch to AoPS?

 

Thanks for the help. 

[daijobu]

2 hours ago, Jan Han said:

Did you switch to AoPS after 5B? Would you recommend BA as side practice/ fun problems?

She is doing very well with SM, doing about 3 books per year (1 level and a half). She seems to be retaining all the information. Should I slow her down and add some BA to go deeper? Or just keep going until we finish 5B and switch to AoPS?

 

Thanks for the help. 

We did switch after 5B.  I do recommend BA for fun additional fun problems.  BA hadn't been published when my kids were younger, so I supplemented with old Math Olympiad problems every week.  I think doing contest problems is great preparation for AoPS.  

I don't think it's necessary to slow down per se.  But you supplementing with either BA or MOEMS will help the transition since AoPS is all about contest problems.